Winter Tyres

[Ess_Three]

I would like to know exactly who is actually ABLE to get a Mk6 GTI to 'snap oversteer' anyway, whilst leaving ESP engaged.

...and to deliberately try to provoke it takes dedication and driver inputs so far removed from road driving, they should be locked up if they manage it on the open road.

The Mk6 GTI is a VAG car...and so will ALWAYS understeer as standard...ESP on or off.

[Rolfe]

...  More importantly, the test doesn't compare winters on front to winters on rear ...

Pretty sure they did, watch them again ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtAm7RsTmE

You know what?  I just wasted five minutes of my life I'll never get back and watched both clips a second time.  They were exactly the same as the first time I watched them.

First clip.  Cornering test, car with four winter tyres performs better than car with winter tyres on the rear only.  Slalom test, car with four winter tyres performs better than car with winter tyres on the front only.  No comparison between front-only and rear-only.  (And we do not know whether the car used was front or real wheel drive.)

Second clip.  Four winter tyres performs better than four all-season tyres.  Then front-only winters is compared to four winter tyres, and again unsurprisingly the four winters does better.  There is no test of a set-up of rear-only winters.  Gee, I wonder why not?  Could it be because it's a completely stupid thing to do and nobody even considered it?

Rolfe.

[Hartside]

Forget winter tyres - here's the solution at a fraction of the cost!  

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tyre-Grip-Spray-solution-safer-winter-/320624598062?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4aa6b71c2e

[Rolfe]

When on earth did I say change the rear wheels only!??!?!

Er, lots and lots of times?

No, I'm afraid I'm not. It really isn't up for debate - you ALWAYS change rear tyres first, understeer is controllable, snap oversteer isn't.

Like there?

Nevertheless, as I said, you're all driving £15k+ cars, why on earth would you only replace 2 tyres anyway!? It's all 4, or if you are **that** cheap, just the rears - there is no justification to change the fronts only.

And there?

No, you have to change the rears first, then the fronts.

I've been fairly consistent with what I've been saying.

Change all 4 ... or if you insist on changing some, change the rears - so as to not compromise the stability of the car.

You have repeatedly insisted that it is better to fit a single pair of winter tyres to the rear wheels than to the front.  This is batcrap insane, and what people are calling you on.

Get it into your head, everyone agrees that fitting four winter tyres is the best thing to do.

There are different opinions as to how acceptable the disadvantages are of fitting winter tyres to the front wheels only, in comparison to doing all four.  Some people point to the rear-end instability and say it's not worth the risk, others say that this risk can be minimised by driving within the limits of the tyres.  This is a sensible debate, with reasonable points on both sides.

You are declaring that A. it is better to fit a pair of winter tyres to the real wheels of a front-wheel-drive, than to the front wheels, and that B. it is better not to fit any winter tyres at all than to do the front only.

Both of these claims are bordering on the insane, and you have provided no backing for either of them.

Rolfe.

[am1w]

Forget winter tyres - here's the solution at a fraction of the cost!  
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tyre-Grip-Spray-solution-safer-winter-/320624598062?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4aa6b71c2e

There you do Rolfe.
Spray this on your rears and make Bender happy.

[Rolfe]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you are giving out dangerous advice.

Less grip over the back wheels = snap oversteer - fact
Less grip over the front wheels = controllable understeer - fact

More grip over the front wheels = better front-end traction - fact
More grip over the front wheels = snap oversteer - fact

Balanced grip over the all wheels = normal handling characteristics - fact

If you're driving in snow/slush on any sort of tyres in such a way as to provoke understeer or oversteer, you're a dangerous lunatic.

More grip on the front wheels = not getting stuck on snow ridges in car parks or on the sides of roads - fact
More grip on the rear wheels = staying exactly where you were with your four summer tyres and spending the night in the car - fact

I'm not advocating changing 2 tyres, I keep saying, change all 4 tyres. BUT IF YOU INSIST on changing only 2 tyres, make it the front set, so you can actually get the bloody car moving.

If, once moving, you start driving like a raving lunatic, then hell mend you.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

It's not a complicated concept. I'll put it in a simple 1,2,3 scenario to make it easier for you to grasp:

1. Bob fits two front winter tyres

2. Bob loves the extra traction and speeds away, happily overtaking losers with their summer tyres

3. Bob panics as child runs out from between parked cars and tries to swerve to avoid, but instead of keeping control spins onto pavement and runs over mother with pram.

Or:

1. Bob leaves four summer tyres on and either can't get off his drive, gets bus or bikes in or has day off work

Or:

1. Bob leaves four summer tyres on manages to get off drive but realising he has no grip drives around slowly and scared for his own life / car

Or:

1. Bob fits four winter tyres

2. Bob speeds around

3. Bob panics as child runs out but successfully swerves around / brakes with shorter shopping distance and remains on road.

OK, maybe that's not made it simple enough for you to grasp but my point is that because of the increased grip you are more likely to drive faster and will be caught out in the event of an emergency manoeuvre, or just going around a corner a bit too fast or not being able to brake in time. You may not be running "illegal" tyres but you could still be responsible for the injury or death of someone or yourself. For the sake of a couple of hundred quid.

I don't know who Bob is.  My name is not Bob.

I'll give you an alternative scenario.

1.  Roberta fits two front winter tyres.

2.  Roberta is bloody relieved she isn't sliding all over the bloody road even on the flat, and can actually drive the car in and out of her drive, and up the hill to the main road.

3.  Roberta gets to work on time every day, without taking time to haul AutoSocks on and off.

4.  Roberta is very well aware that she still has summer tyres on the rear wheels, and as a result does not drive like a raving lunatic.  In particular, she takes corners in snow as if she had four summer tyres, and always makes sure she has plenty stopping distance to avoid sudden braking.

5.  Roberta sees child on pavement, slows down, and is able to brake in good order when required.

Roberta Rolfe.

[am1w]

RR
A Rolls Royce post.

[GolfTi]

Rolfe
You are are right, Ben is wrong - fact

Not sure about your garage guy/friend, he's obviously trying to save you money and that's a refreshing change but he maybe shouldn't do this against the advice of major manufacturers and fitters, any decent one would refuse to fit two winter tyres for the reasons already mentioned.
Yes, I know, it's a money thing and they're trying to sell you more tyres but four is best.

[Rolfe]

Its really not, on snow/ice - you can easily break (lateral) traction at under 10mph. And on wet roads the margin is around 20-30 mph.

This is quite true.  I did it a couple of times on purpose so I got a feel of where the limits of the new tyre set-up were.

Of course at under 10mph the rear wheels slid sideways a yard or two and then the car straightened up again....

If you want to drive around like Jackie Stewart on packed snow, you better fit four winter tyres for sure.  If you're prepared to modify your driving to accommodate the limits imposed by the summer tyres on the rear wheels, there are still significant advantages to having winter tyres on the front.  Like not getting stuck with your drive wheels spinning uselessly.  Something which happened to me with distressing regularity last year, but which has not occurred at all this year in identical weather conditions.

Rolfe.