GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Hurdy on 07 August 2008, 19:48
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Okay, so I'm seeing a lot of threads saying "my car's this......" & "it is out of warranty now so..."
I get the feeling that a few people on here are readying their excuses to chop their beloved MKV's for a MKVI! :wink:
Am I right?
What excuses valid reasons are you going to give to your other halves come exchange time?
and....will it actually be a MKVI?
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bribery.....
darling if you let me by a new mk6 i will make sure we get married by end of next year!
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Lol,
Just make sure you get the car before you get married or she'll use the excuse "The wedding cost sooooo much. Shall we NOT get the MKVI?" :shocked:
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definitely not.. could sway towards a 4motion 'rocco though.
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I'm hoping to test drive the Mk6 then if I like it, trade my MK5 in for it next summer when it comes out. Reasons would be, although I love my black Mk5, its hard to keep clean, gets darn hot in the summer making it hard to clean. I'd choose silver or red next time. Probably red. I would like more power, and 4wd plus good fuel ecomony would be a "No Brainer".
Better looking higher quality inside, quieter cruising, adaptive suspension, better sound system, etc etc.
Plus the "feel" and smell of having a new car, it Rocks!
Adding to that, the MK5 would lose value quick with a new model out.
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Lol,
Just make sure you get the car before you get married or she'll use the excuse "The wedding cost sooooo much. Shall we NOT get the MKVI?" :shocked:
very true!...it sounds like thats from experience, tried that before have ya? :grin:
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Nah tbh i can be bothered with the hassle again, the mkvi will no doubt look good and maybe better but the ed30 has everything or will do soon that i want.
I used the old warranty one with my MK4 lol
Best plan is to start several months in advance break them into the idea gradually until the big day so tell them then its much easier.
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Lol,
Just make sure you get the car before you get married or she'll use the excuse "The wedding cost sooooo much. Shall we NOT get the MKVI?" :shocked:
very true!...it sounds like thats from experience, tried that before have ya? :grin:
:wink: err ...yes :embarassed:
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Nah tbh i can be bothered with the hassle again, the mkvi will no doubt look good and maybe better but the ed30 has everything or will do soon that i want.
I used the old warranty one with my MK4 lol
Best plan is to start several months in advance break them into the idea gradually until the big day so tell them then its much easier.
I've found the best way so far is simply to order the car and then pick her up in it on the day it arrives :grin:
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Nah tbh i can be bothered with the hassle again, the mkvi will no doubt look good and maybe better but the ed30 has everything or will do soon that i want.
I used the old warranty one with my MK4 lol
Best plan is to start several months in advance break them into the idea gradually until the big day so tell them then its much easier.
I've found the best way so far is simply to order the car and then pick her up in it on the day it arrives :grin:
get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin: and buy her a new handbag!! :wink:
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hmmmm......... divorce V Mk6 :undecided:, now thats a tough one, "i promise to stay away from the dealership when a mk6 GTi is on show hun" :cry:
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Natural progression init?? mind you we,l have to wait for the GTI and thats the frustrating bit!! :angry:
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I'm glad I nabbed some MK6 domain names now!
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Dont you guys get bored of having nothing but Golfs? I never buy the same marque more than twice so as much as I like the Leon and the Toledo before it, its gonna be something different next time.
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Dont you guys get bored of having nothing buy Golfs? I never buy the same marque more than twice so as much as I like the Leon and the Toledo before it, its gonna be something different next time.
Nope!
And I've come from 4 Audi's, a'll bought new !
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Something different for me next time
So far
Fiat Tipo 1.4
Ford Escort 1.4
Vauxhall Astra 2.0 16v
Honda Civic 1.6 VTi Saloon
Honda Civic 1.6 VTi Hatch
Subaru Impreza Turbo
VW Passat Sport TDI
VW Passat Sport
SEAT Toledo 1.8T
SEAT Leon TFSi
I fancy an A4 next time, probably a 2.0TDi. Its good not be blinkered IMO :smiley:
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
Apart from the 265HP engine, oh and the 4wd, oh and the adaptive suspension, and park assist, better fuel economy and uprated interior. Oh and redesigned body, different rear suspension setup, lighter components and modern styling.
Not much more then. I could go on...
:wink:
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Dont you guys get bored of having nothing buy Golfs? I never buy the same marque more than twice so as much as I like the Leon and the Toledo before it, its gonna be something different next time.
Nope!
And I've come from 4 Audi's, a'll bought new !
Ive come from 3 brand spanker golfs to an Audi,(M3 in the middle of me golfs,wota mistaka to maka) just gotta be german for me i,m afraid, nothing else will do end off!! :wink:
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
Apart from the 265HP engine, oh and the 4wd, oh and the adaptive suspension, and park assist, better fuel economy and uprated interior. Oh and redesigned body, different rear suspension setup, lighter components and modern styling.
Not much more then. I could go on...
:wink:
Well done - you've swallowed it whole.
VW will be well pleased.
Introduction of new trim/cabins/engines halfway through a model's life is nothing new.
I repeat, it's just a facelift.
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Dont you guys get bored of having nothing buy Golfs? I never buy the same marque more than twice so as much as I like the Leon and the Toledo before it, its gonna be something different next time.
Nope!
And I've come from 4 Audi's, a'll bought new !
Ive come from 3 brand spanker golfs to an Audi,(M3 in the middle of me golfs,wota mistaka to maka) just gotta be german for me i,m afraid, nothing else will do end off!! :wink:
Fully agree. Cant beat the German engineering. When you get in another make, you really notice the difference!
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
Apart from the 265HP engine, oh and the 4wd, oh and the adaptive suspension, and park assist, better fuel economy and uprated interior. Oh and redesigned body, different rear suspension setup, lighter components and modern styling.
Not much more then. I could go on...
:wink:
Well done - you've swallowed it whole.
VW will be well pleased.Introduction of new trim/cabins/engines halfway through a model's life is nothing new.
I repeat, it's just a facelift.
I will be pleased, just as I drive it outta the dealership...... :wink:
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:rolleyes:
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
How can it be a mid term facelift when its being unvieled as a mk 6?? Its a new model not a mk5. :wink:
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Same platform !
Same looks !.......don't new models tend to look different ?
The real Mk6 will be along in another four or five years, depending on how this facelift rejuvenates sales.
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I had a chat with the wife and she said if the GTI-R comes out we are having it :evil: or if they do it on the rocco we are having a look :drool:
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The mk6 is only being brought in cus the VW are not making enough profit with it. Bring out something thats cheaper to produce in mass numbers, is a no brainer in any bussiness.
Im sure the Mk5 will be hard to better, tweek it maybe but this mk6 is not from a clean sheet of paper. Why scrap a popular model altogether if it works, Visual tweeks is all thats gonna change, underneath except the engine will be very simular (and Cheaper Suspention)
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....I don't have to make any excuses to anyone - I can do exactly as I like.
The only version I may be seriously interested in is the GTI-R 2.0T 265bhp AWD - But only subject to a long test drive.
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Me too, the wife has her own car ;) (although WE would discuss changing that)
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Okay, so I'm seeing a lot of threads saying "my car's this......" & "it is out of warranty now so..."
I get the feeling that a few people on here are readying their excuses to chop their beloved MKV's for a MKVI! :wink:
Am I right?
What excuses valid reasons are you going to give to your other halves come exchange time?
and....will it actually be a MKVI?
As long as the GTI MkVI is a better car than the MkV GTI I can see myself picking one up. I've only had my GTI since April though, so it won't be until very late 2009 at the earliest, but most probably sometime in 2010.
I think anyone buying a MkVI in the first year is taking a bit of a gamble. Need to give a car a good 12 months for the manufacturer to iron out all the niggles & issues...
But the bottom line is that my car is too good to even contemplate changing already.
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The only version I may be seriously interested in is the GTI-R 2.0T 265bhp AWD - But only subject to a long test drive.
Same here and the price as well tho. :grin:
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^^^^ Very tidy and tasty red Polo! You still got her? :cool:
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Iv still got 3 years left to enjoy my MK5 :D. Will have to see whats on the market then. I am loving the 'roccos so might be tempted by one of them or push the boat out and get an S3 depening on cost. 3 years is a long time so who knows.
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I'm hoping to test drive the Mk6 then if I like it, trade my MK5 in for it next summer when it comes out. Reasons would be, although I love my black Mk5, its hard to keep clean, gets darn hot in the summer making it hard to clean. I'd choose silver or red next time.
I've had two black cars before, and never, NEVER again. Indeed, never any dark colour for me. Bog-standard silver for me . . . blend into obscurity, don't attract any attention (particularly roy-bacers and tea-leaves).
I would like more power, and 4wd plus good fuel ecomony would be a "No Brainer".
Hmm, I'm sure we'd all like more power, AND better fuel economy. However, don't forget that the Golf 4motion won't have real permanent full time 4wd - but will merely use the glorified traction control system that is Haldex!
Adding to that, the MK5 would lose value quick with a new model out.
Hmm, maybe the general Mk5 models will take a blip in used car values, but I doubt the current GTI will be affected at all. Furthermore, all Volkswagens (in line with all German cars) have much stronger and robust residuals compared to Brit/French/Jap cars.
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
Apart from the 265HP engine, oh and the 4wd, oh and the adaptive suspension, and park assist, better fuel economy and uprated interior. Oh and redesigned body, different rear suspension setup, lighter components and modern styling.
Not much more then. I could go on...
:wink:
Where did you get all the detail of that spec from?
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Exactly TT, everything thats out at the moment is just speculation.
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get the same colour and she probably wont know the difference!! :grin:
That's for sure.
Mk5 is only four years old, normal production runs are usually getting on for twice that.
This is nothing more than a midterm facelift.
How can it be a mid term facelift when its being unvieled as a mk 6?? Its a new model not a mk5. :wink:
Who, EXACTLY, has "unveiled" it as a "Mk6"? Volkswagen, or motoring journos?
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^^^^ Very tidy and tasty red Polo! You still got her? :cool:
Thanks mate.
But no it had to go to make way for the GTi. :cry:
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Who, EXACTLY, has "unveiled" it as a "Mk6"? Volkswagen, or motoring journos?
....Allegedly an Official VW Press Release : - http://biali.ritey.com/forum/index.php?topic=90.msg1206#new (http://biali.ritey.com/forum/index.php?topic=90.msg1206#new) - I can dig out the original I took it from, I think.
Ooops! That particular info on the GTI-R I think came from Evo and also Autocar(?) - There was a VW private showing with a photography ban apparently.
Bottom line is that it's virtually ALL speculation until it's on VW's web sites or in the showrooms!
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"Within days of the new VW Golf VI media release, talk about the sporty GTI version is already emanating. According to VW insiders who spoke with Autocar, the Golf GTI will get 11hp more for a total of 211hp. Increase in power is a result of VW's new global 2.0-liter turbo EA888 engine, which is equipped with Audi's new variable valve-lift system. VW also made access to the turbo and oil cooler easier, therefore, keeping service times/costs down.
The GTI will also look the part with more distinctive body kit, taillights, 18 and 19-inch wheels and headlights with Audi-style LED daytime driving lights.
Unfortunately, the R32 and its sonic V6 engine are being dropped due to EU emissions legislation. However, VW will, in spirit, bring it back via an all-wheel-drive R variant called GTI-R. It will be powered by the 265hp 2.0 TFSI found in the Audi S3.
The new GTI is expected to tease enthusiasts in concept form this October in Paris. Market launch will be spring 2009."
....From another forum.
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here i was all happy again with the ed and now all this talk of the new mk6 gti and the wife wants one, thanks guys, no more plse i want to keep my ed30. :lipsrsealed:
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here i was all happy again with the ed and now all this talk of the new mk6 gti and the wife wants one, thanks guys, no more plse i want to keep my ed30. :lipsrsealed:
....I don't know what you're complaining about - There's guys on here whose wifeys don't want them to either swop their car or spend any money on what they've got.
I think women are wonderful - Nothing better (when they are happy and everything is going their way). But at times like this I'm glad I'm divorced and free to selfishly do as I want. :cool:
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I think most of this specualtion comes from what we expect the gti to beat...
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....Agreed. GTI owners have wanted a 4-motion/AWD GTI for a very long time.
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Yep, as much as i like the R32 i cant do without my turbo's.I would love a 4wd GTi ,I am currently driving a Vaux SRi and its throwing me having to rev the shyt out of it to get any response 5-6k it comes alive. :rolleyes:
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....Methinks that the nearest I'm gonna get to an AWD GTI in the near future is with a Quaife diff - Might get fitted by end of this month. :smiley:
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....Methinks that the nearest I'm gonna get to an AWD GTI in the near future is with a Quaife diff - Might get fitted by end of this month. :smiley:
:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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Sounds good RR!!! See that test drive really did have a positive effect on you... I think I will stay well away from you modding nuts :tongue:
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ill be getting one because the audi a3/s3 is so old fashioned,the controls on the dash ie climate controls are not set set out very well at all and very dull to drive (imo i was very surprised)and been around for years.The new golf looks fresh.Compare it to a a facelift a3/s3,the current mk 5 gti is a far better looking car than new s3.
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Okay, so I'm seeing a lot of threads saying "my car's this......" & "it is out of warranty now so..."
I get the feeling that a few people on here are readying their excuses to chop their beloved MKV's for a MKVI! :wink:
Am I right?
What excuses valid reasons are you going to give to your other halves come exchange time?
and....will it actually be a MKVI?
I'd have to get the same colour...... Then "This is the same car, Darling!" No honest would I lie to you? It is the same GTi we have allways had!" :evil:
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I have the perfect excuse. She has more of less pinched my mk5 GTI so i have to replace our other car with at least another mk5 GTI or maybe the mk6 GTI :evil:. I also have permission to do this :cool: so don't need an excuse. :smiley:
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....October in Paris should help your decisions, or might you hang on to check out the GTI-R?
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....October in Paris should help your decisions
Wouldn't help me . . . all those fragrant horney Parisian women . . . . :embarassed:
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....October in Paris should help your decisions
Wouldn't help me . . . all those fragrant horney Parisian women . . . . :embarassed:
and the hairy armpits to go with!!!, no one they are fragrant :laugh:
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....October in Paris should help your decisions
Wouldn't help me . . . all those fragrant horney Parisian women . . . . :embarassed:
and the hairy armpits to go with!!!, no one they are fragrant :laugh:
Bu&&er - I knew there was a flaw somewhere! :embarassed:
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....October in Paris should help your decisions
Wouldn't help me . . . all those fragrant horney Parisian women . . . . :embarassed:
and the hairy armpits to go with!!!, no one they are fragrant :laugh:
....Phil!!!! It's Sunday morning and I haven't had breakfast yet!!
I'm just gonna have to post a French beauty to make up for it! : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM8ouyd_SNQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM8ouyd_SNQ&feature=related)
(http://www.page2007.com/people/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/alizee-22j.jpg)(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h153/vngallery3/Alizee_Jacotey22.jpg)
I know she looks very young but she's 22 - Old enough and French!!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM8ouyd_SNQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM8ouyd_SNQ&feature=related)
(http://www.page2007.com/people/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/alizee-22j.jpg)(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h153/vngallery3/Alizee_Jacotey22.jpg)
I know she looks very young but she's 22 - Old enough and French!!
Young enough to be your grandaughter? :shocked: That would be one cool grandchild though!
BTW, do you want her fone number! :tongue:
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I know she looks very young but she's 22 - Old enough and French!!
Young enough to be your grandaughter? :shocked: That would be one cool grandchild though!
BTW, do you want her fone number! :tongue:
....My daughter is only 17, so Alizee isn't young enough to be my grandaughter :grin:
Thanks for the offer but I don't need her phone number - She's already a fwend of mine (on MySpace) :grin:
Here's perhaps a more 'appropriate' Frenchie : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0) - She'll knock yer sox off!!
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....October in Paris should help your decisions, or might you hang on to check out the GTI-R?
GTI would prob do me. Im still not 100% convinced of helldex from an engineering point of view.
I will know better in October. :smiley:
I don't normally like buying new cars in there first year of production but the mk6 is sort of a mk5+ so there should not be too many production hickups. LOL :laugh:
Theres a few factors i will consider but i know i won't be rushing to be one of the first at the dealers door. I will let the rush die down alittle first.
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....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it). Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.
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....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it). Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.
Whats the score with Haldex, is it not regarded as any good? I had 4WD in my S4 and found that fantastic, especially in the wet. Did that have a Haldex or is quattro a totally different thing? Pardon my lack of knowledge :smiley:
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....I'm sure T_T will be along soon to deliver all the glorious detail (and correct my misinformation) but quattro is a true all wheel drive as opposed to Haldex being a device on essentially a FWD with automatic balance to the rear wheels but only when needed or actioned by circumstances.
This is what Wikipedia say : - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex)
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Thanks Red,
I wondered about the R32's 4wd system, as watching it driven by the Stig on his TopGear lap, it wheelspan the front wheels then bedded down and got going. Even dumping the clutch on the S4 at high revs never span the front wheels, the car just seemed to "squat down" and launch off. It was almost the same in the wet with ESP turned off, scared many a BMW driver I can tell you... :wink:
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the wheels spin is very very minimal. Anything up to 50% (I was pretty sure it was 80% but im not gonna argue with what TT wrote in another thread) of the power can be sent to the rears within a split second. I find this better than simple 4wd as you still get the joys of FWD everyday driving without the understeer.
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The Audi A4 3.0 litre quattro refuses to spin. Even in the wet.
Oh yes.
And in corners... Yes it can drift :evil:
Guess who detailed a 2.6 V6 Audi this weekend?.... Oh my for a 1999 model that thing moves. And its auto!
I love Audi!!
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The Audi A4 3.0 litre quattro refuses to spin. Even in the wet.
Oh yes.
And in corners... Yes it can drift :evil:
Guess who detailed a 2.6 V6 Audi this weekend?.... Oh my for a 1999 model that thing moves. And its auto!
I love Audi!!
tru! just cant beat good ol 4 wheel drift!!
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I know she looks very young but she's 22 - Old enough and French!!
Young enough to be your grandaughter? :shocked: That would be one cool grandchild though!
BTW, do you want her fone number! :tongue:
....My daughter is only 17, so Alizee isn't young enough to be my grandaughter :grin:
Thanks for the offer but I don't need her phone number - She's already a fwend of mine (on MySpace) :grin:
Here's perhaps a more 'appropriate' Frenchie : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0) - She'll knock yer sox off!!
She's gorgeous - I feel sorry for her male co-hosts, blatantly flirting - I'd have a permanent semi . . . :embarassed:
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....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it).
Correct, when you compare the Haldex with Torsen 4wd systems, the Haldex is quite noticeably inferior, both in straight-line traction, and more importantly, cornering traction. Furthermore, Haldex systems provide ZERO rear axle engine braking.
Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.
Hmm, a correctly engineered 4wd car should perform in an identical fasion to a front wheel drive. You'd be a brave person to state that a front wheel drive A4 handles better than any of the quattro A4s, for example.
I agree with the weight penalty issue though, especially on the Haldex versions, where most of the time, it is just non-functioning "dead weight". Furthermore, on the Golf, the Haldex rear end considerably reduces the boot capacity - which is an important factor if the Golf is your only family car.
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....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it). Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.
Whats the score with Haldex, is it not regarded as any good? I had 4WD in my S4 and found that fantastic, especially in the wet. Did that have a Haldex or is quattro a totally different thing? Pardon my lack of knowledge :smiley:
To put it simply, for all VAG four wheel drive cars (Audi quattro, Volkswagen 4motion, Å koda 4x4, Seat 4) - all the transverse mounted engined cars (Golf, Audi A3, Audi TT, Å koda Octavia, Seat whatever junk!) use Haldex, whereas all longitudinally mounted cars use Torsen, such as Audi A4, A5, A6 and A8 ranges, previous generation VW Passats, VW Phaeton, Å koda Superb.
The Torsen system is a permanent "always on" four wheel drive system. Prior to the latest Torsen diff, first seen in the current RS4, and eventually being incorporated in all Torsen Audis, there is a "default" 50:50 front/rear torque split. In laymans terms, under normal traction and road conditions, both the front and rear axles receive identical "drive" power. When road/traction conditions alter, the Torsen can dynamically (and steplessly) apportion torque (or drive) to either the front or rear axle. This split was initially up to 25:75 to 75:25 (meaning 75% of the drive going to one axle with the remaining 25% to the other). Later, this 50:50 diff was re-engineered to provide 20:80 to 80:20 on some models. For the latest Torsen, it is now set up with an asymmetric "default" torque distribution of "40:60" - which means that the front gets 40% driving force and the rear gets 60% under normal operating traction conditions. The window of operation of this latest diff is set to 0:100 to 80:20, though in practical terms, the front axle would never be reduced to an absolute zero torque distribution. The Torsen-based system is purely a mechanical system, requiring no electronic control, and NO maintenance. It works in a complete "fail-safe" operation, and is truely "stepless" in its torque transfer.
For the Haldex system, it works very, very differently. Firstly, the Haldex is NOT a "centre differential" like a conventional planetary-geared diff, or the Torsen helical-geared diff. It can NOT "apportion" torque, either "positively" like the Torsen, or negatively like a conventional diff. The Haldex is quite simply an electronically controlled "lock-up" clutch, and can operate fully "open" (transmitting zero drive), fully locked (transmitting 100% drive), or anywhere in between, just like "slipping" your foot pedal controlled clutch.
Now, on Haldex systems, under normal conditions, the car performs ONLY as a front wheel drive, with the rear axle operating under ZERO drive conditions. The Haldex will ONLY send drive to the rear axle AFTER the front axle has lost traction. The Haldex takes information from the roadwheel speed sensors (often incorrectly called ABS sensors), and compares the difference in rotational speed between the front and rear wheels, and then the Haldex controller instructs the Haldex clutch to start to "clamp", thereby sending some drive to the rear axle. This method of operation is fine for straight line traction, but traction in corners can be quite "un-nervy", with some drivers being able to sense the "off-on-off-on" application of the Haldex unit. Naturally, if this happens in a long sweeping corner, under hard acceleration with inconsistent traction, then it can make the handling of the car very "twitchy" indeed. :sick: Another significant disadvantage to Haldex systems, should any of the ABS/wheel speed sensors fail, then the Haldex wont work!
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Thanks Red,
I wondered about the R32's 4wd system, as watching it driven by the Stig on his TopGear lap, it wheelspan the front wheels then bedded down and got going. Even dumping the clutch on the S4 at high revs never span the front wheels, the car just seemed to "squat down" and launch off. It was almost the same in the wet with ESP turned off, scared many a BMW driver I can tell you... :wink:
Yup, I've also scared many BMW owners too, including M3 drivers. Oh, I had much fun with my previous S4 on a track day, accelerating hard in my so called "lard barge" by said M3 owners, at full bore, around the outside of them, whilst they were fighting the rear end, and even doing 360s.
Said lard barge -
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/my%20Audi%20B6%20S4%20sal/S4_TrackDay_pm_2679.jpg)
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So a benefit of the haldex over the torsen 4x4 would be that it would put more power through the wheels as it only sends power through the front when accelerating in gear, or in high grip conditions when the rear doesnt need to kick in. Therefore not sapping as much power as a permanent 4x4 setup.
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the wheels spin is very very minimal. Anything up to 50% (I was pretty sure it was 80% but im not gonna argue with what TT wrote in another thread) of the power can be sent to the rears within a split second. I find this better than simple 4wd as you still get the joys of FWD everyday driving without the understeer.
I see you edited your original post! :wink: :smiley:
But yes, you are now correct, in that up to a max of 50% can be sent to the rears. The front axle is always driven though, no matter what the road conditions or available traction! :nerd:
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Dont haldex do a control unit that can send more power to the back when needed?
iirc its an adjustable one with 3 settings.
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
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interesting read of haldex vs. torsen here http://forums.audiworld.com/a3/msgs/9923.phtml
imo - haldex is a better, more efficient technology. The Veyron uses the same principle, and so will the next generation of AWD Porsches. Torsen diffs belong back in the era of leaf springs and carburettors.
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I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy. Hence the reason when raod tests are carried out on the r32 they no doubt test it with the esp off and all rave about its handling ability!
For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.
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What does the new TTS use, as I believe it has a transverse 2ltr 4 cylinder engine. If it is quattro/torsen, why cant they use that in the new GTI-R :huh:
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So a benefit of the haldex over the torsen 4x4 would be that it would put more power through the wheels as it only sends power through the front when accelerating in gear,
Erm, I think you may be slightly confused over your front vs rear and acceleration needs.
However, it is sort of identical to Torsen, in that Torsen sends torque (not "power", as power is merely a rate of work, whereas "torque" is a "turning" force) to those wheels which can use it. The simple fact, though, is that all four wheels can utilise the traction, and that is what the Torsen utilises beautifully (proactively), and the Haldex is noticeably more "agricultural" in that it works "reactively", ie, AFTER traction is lost.
To clarify, you state that Haldex only sends torque to those wheels which needs it - but I say, so does the Torsen!
or in high grip conditions when the rear doesnt need to kick in.
Very subjective. Whilst the rear may not need any drive, for optimum vehicle dynamics, it is considerably better for all four wheels to be permanently driven, which is where Torsen has an undisputed example. It is just like saying that because the front brakes may deal with up to 75% of the stopping power, why not ditch the rear brakes? Again, the simple fact is that even when the front anchors may provide that 75% of stopping power, the rear brakes provide a major factor in vehicle stability.
Therefore not sapping as much power as a permanent 4x4 setup.
Ahhhhh. That must be the classic misconception of an Haldex "advantage"! :rolleyes:
Firstly, Haldex systems require some kind of transmission "transfer box"-type of system to distribute torque to more than one axle. So does the Torsen system. = a score draw.
Haldex systems require a prop shaft to send drive to the remote (rear) axle. So does the Torsen. Another score draw.
Haldex systems require an additional remote axle cross differential. Guess what, so does Torsen. Nobody seems to have scored that winning goal yet!
Haldex systems require additional remote axle wheel drive shafts. You know what the answer is, same as Torsen!
Now, on to the specifics of "power" requirements. On a Haldex system, the underfloor prop shaft is ALWAYS driven, even if zero drive is going to the rear wheels. The Torsen only spins its propshaft whilst the rear axle is driven (the fact that the rear axle is always driven is indicitive of the Torsen prop being permanently driven). Now, this is a clear advantage to the Torsen system, because whilst the Haldex may not be driving its rear wheels, the Haldex is still suffering driveline losses in the bevel gears which drive the prop - a wasteful efficiency loss. If the Haldex was mounted within the transaxle, or before the prop, this wouldn't be so bad, but then this scenario would noticieably alter the front to rear weight distribution. Not good.
Furthermore, even when zero drive is being sent to the rear wheels, the rear axle hypoid final drive (part of the rear diff) will still sap the kinetic energy (and therefore motive power of the engine) (it is a design fact of hypoid drives, and explains why they need thick smelly heavy duty lubes). The CV joints in the rear driveshafts will also sap kinetic energy (unless the drive shaft is exactly in line, which is highly doubtful, considering dynamic movements from the independent rear suspension).
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I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy. Hence the reason when raod tests are carried out on the r32 they no doubt test it with the esp off and all rave about its handling ability!
For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.
Just to note, my 4WD S4 handled a lot better than any other 2wd car I've ever driven, and was never ever twitchy. In the wet I drove it the same as I did in the dry, (apart from braking distances of course). I'm a 4WD fan but not sure about the Haldex system...good old "Quattro" I say :smiley:
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Dont haldex do a control unit that can send more power to the back when needed?
iirc its an adjustable one with 3 settings.
Yup, an "aftermarket" Haldex controller. Which can still only send a max of 50% torque to the rear, still relies on electronics, still requires maintenance, still disengages the rear axle when the brake pedal is pressed (otherwise the ABS won't work), still has no rear axle EDL, and being an aftermarket product, will have warranty implications. :smug:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
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I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy. Hence the reason when raod tests are carried out on the r32 they no doubt test it with the esp off and all rave about its handling ability!
For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.
Just to note, my 4WD S4 handled a lot better than any other 2wd car I've ever driven, and was never ever twitchy. In the wet I drove it the same as I did in the dry, (apart from braking distances of course). I'm a 4WD fan but not sure about the Haldex system...good old "Quattro" I say :smiley:
I can say that I drive the same in the wet as the dry and never find any problems. THe haldex works like a dream and you seem to have endless grip available. The only time I have had the twitch was that once and tbh I was really really pushing it round a small RA.. driving at silly speed by my own admission. I would rather have the twitch than to have been parked in the middle of it tbh. But you can probably expect a few problems anyway when you get your entry speed all wrong :sad:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
If there was a better 4wd system available to use then they would have used it on the Veyron. This chat about 4wd haldex not being worthwhile due to the extra weight is pure nonsense. In my (admittedly short) experience as a passenger in a g2 syncro, it was clear that the grip levels are way beyond that of a 2wd car.
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interesting read of haldex vs. torsen here http://forums.audiworld.com/a3/msgs/9923.phtml
Ohhhhh dear. We are dealing with thick Yanks here, who are clearly retarded with their knowledge of how the Haldex works. The Haldex does NOT "always work" - fact. The Haldex can NOT apportion 100% drive to the rear axle - fact. These are the same thick yanks on AudiWorld who categorically state the B6 and B7 S4 had FSI - just blatantly factually WRONG. A similar bunch also inhabit AudiZine, who categorically state that the B7 RS4 was NOT made in an Avant.
They are also retarded in their opinion regarding "understeering" RS4s. The simple fact, is that when any Torsen car is driven correctly, it does NOT understeer. Torsen quattros understeering "because of the Torsen" is just pure fantasy! The primary reason of a car understeering is bad driving. Yes, I accept that some cars may have an increased tendency to understeer when compared to others, but Torsen quattro Audis do NOT fit into that example.
imo - haldex is a better, more efficient technology. The Veyron uses the same principle, and so will the next generation of AWD Porsches. Torsen diffs belong back in the era of leaf springs and carburettors.
Sorry, but Haldex is considerably inferior in its "application" of four wheel drive. Just because it relies on electronics, that means jack schit!
Yes, the Torsen is relatively old "technology", but it works, and it works perfectly and flawlessly. The wheel is also old technology, but because nothing has been invented to better it, it is still with us.
Your comparison of carbs and leaf springs are very much a red herring. Carbs and leaf springs were both very inefficient, and had serious design and operational flaws, and better methods are now used. Actually, to stay with springs, the torsion bar is also quite aincient, but that is still in use today, even on Porsches and the Veyron. :smug:
And to reiterate, the Veyron and Porsche examples bear no relation to a Golf. They are very expensive, relatively exclusive, rear engined sports cars/supercars. A Golf / Audi A3 is a front engined family hatchback, of which you will see many in your daily travels, compared to - how many Veyrons??? :smug:
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Didnt know that about the haldex. Still not keen on any 4x4. IMO you cant beat a well setup rwd car. Even fwd can benefit over 4x4 if it has a good diff and is light enough. An example is the megane r26r which punches well above its weight on track.
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Ohhhhh dear. We are dealing with thick Yanks here, who are clearly retarded with their knowledge of how the Haldex works. The Haldex does NOT "always work" - fact. The Haldex can NOT apportion 100% drive to the rear axle - fact.
the only mention of 100% drive is to the front wheels, pay closer attention :wink:
Sorry, but Haldex is considerably inferior in its "application" of four wheel drive. Just because it relies on electronics, that means jack schit!
Yes, the torsen method is a better way to get more driven wheels at once, but then that isn't the best way to acheive optimum grip and control, is it :tongue:
just admit you're a quattro fanboy :grin:
Haldex is the future. Whether a new C4S or veyron have any comparable qualities with a golf is irrelevant, the application of the technology is the proof in the pudding.
To reference the once again much overused TG track as an example... R32 > S4 despite the 40bhp/tonne disadvantage. But then perhaps they left the manual crank handle in the grille and overfilled the oil in the headlamps and were overladen :lipsrsealed:
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I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy.
Hmm. . . . I wonder why I experienced this twitch on the A3 3.2 quattro, which has the identical pwertrain, transmission, suspension, brakes etc as your R32 - and it was apparent weather the ESP was on or off! :undecided:
I certainly havn't driven the R32 for any extended period in "anger", but when I did "provoke" it - it displayed the same uneasy "steppy" torque transfer. The sales bint in the back asked me if I'd broken something, so I showed her again. She relied "oh youve got the ESP working" - to which I replied, "sorry dear, but I turned it off before we set off". To which an argument ensued with the sales bint about me not being "allowed" to turn off the ESP on test drives. And I kindly pointed out my S4 in the car park . . . and the V10 S6 which I'd borrowed recently - and all driven with the ESP off. She then instucted me to end the test drive immediately, and return straight to the stealership slowly. As you can guess, I didn't buy an R32, nor any car from that stealership, and she no longer works there.
So, I dunno, but EVERY Haldex car I've driven has always displayed the same handling traits. Maybe different tyres are causing differing handling characteristics - just like on the Mich PS2 vs Goodyear thread. What seems to be of concern though, is that I thought the Golf V GTI, and presumably the R32 too, was supposed to have an enhanced ESP system, which was meant to be less intrusive. I certainly don't get any real intervention from the ESP on the GTI, unless I'm driving like a tool in the wet or sommat. Even with the current mix of Mich PS2 and Dunlop ShyteMaxx, the ESP allows a considerable tollerance, particularly when compared to say the Golf V GT TDI 170! :undecided:
For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.
Is the above happening in a straight line, or when cornering. If it does it when cornering, it may be working as designed, being as the VR6 lump is quite a heavy beast, when compared to the GTI 4-pot lump.
Maybe your ESP is not working correctly! :undecided:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I've never stated that Haldex doesn't work! :embarassed: I just personally find it works very differently to Torsen, and I can sense those differences. Perhaps if I'd never owned my S4/RS4, and only driven Haldex cars, I may have formed a different opinion! :smiley:
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What does the new TTS use, as I believe it has a transverse 2ltr 4 cylinder engine. If it is quattro/torsen, why cant they use that in the new GTI-R :huh:
It is still a Haldex. Tranverse engined cars can NOT use the Torsen as the centre diff. It is simply down to the differences between a longitudinal gearbox and transverse transaxle.
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
Didnt Volkswagen design the Bugatti Veyron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
Maybe they use similar technologies? What works for one of the worlds quickest cars will surely work for .:R32.
:smiley:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
If there was a better 4wd system available to use then they would have used it on the Veyron. This chat about 4wd haldex not being worthwhile due to the extra weight is pure nonsense. In my (admittedly short) experience as a passenger in a g2 syncro, it was clear that the grip levels are way beyond that of a 2wd car.
Oh FFS - read the posts properly.
The Veyron uses Haldex because it is a rear engined car. That means completely different engineering principles, and also means a separate "transfer box"-style gearbox, with offset rear propshaft and unequal length rear driveshafts - which physically means it can not use the Torsen as the centre diff. It is the overall engineering package which decides the type of four wheel drive system - not any particular operational preference! :nerd:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/Bugatti%20Veyron/BugattiVeyron16406cutaway-1600.jpg)
Furthermore, where did I state "4wd haldex not being worthwhile" - due to weight or otherwise. I didn't. I was merely comparing the "differences". :tongue:
Finally, the G2 synchro used the pre-haldex viscous coupling, and worked different to the Haldex, in that the rears were always driven (due to the need for keeping the fluid at the correct workable viscosity, same as viscous cooling fans). And being a "passenger" how do you know how much throttle was being applied? :rolleyes:
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Didnt know that about the haldex. Still not keen on any 4x4. IMO you cant beat a well setup rwd car. Even fwd can benefit over 4x4 if it has a good diff and is light enough. An example is the megane r26r which punches well above its weight on track.
Pure bolloxs. Sheer fantasy. Why was 4wd banned in F1? Why did 4wd transform overnight rallying. Why does the Veyron need 4wd. Why does any TDI A4 need 4wd. Why can't a lightweight, race prepared M3s keep anywhere near a lardy completely standard S4 on a wet track. Why cant a standard M3/AMG Merc keep up with an RS4 on a wet road?
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Sorry for being so blunt mate, but 4wd has massive advantages over either front or rear wheel drive, even Haldex systems. :smiley:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
If there was a better 4wd system available to use then they would have used it on the Veyron. This chat about 4wd haldex not being worthwhile due to the extra weight is pure nonsense. In my (admittedly short) experience as a passenger in a g2 syncro, it was clear that the grip levels are way beyond that of a 2wd car.
Oh FFS - read the posts properly.
The Veyron uses Haldex because it is a rear engined car. That means completely different engineering principles, and also means a separate "transfer box"-style gearbox, with offset rear propshaft and unequal length rear driveshafts - which physically means it can not use the Torsen as the centre diff. It is the overall engineering package which decides the type of four wheel drive system - not any particular operational preference! :nerd:
Furthermore, where did I state "4wd haldex not being worthwhile" - due to weight or otherwise. I didn't. I was merely comparing the "differences". :tongue:
Finally, the G2 synchro used the pre-haldex viscous coupling, and worked different to the Haldex, in that the rears were always driven (due to the need for keeping the fluid at the correct workable viscosity, same as viscous cooling fans). And being a "passenger" how do you know how much throttle was being applied? :rolleyes:
earlier on in the thread someone mentioned 4wd not being worth its weight. not every post is directed personally for your attention, however if you are on a personal vendetta against haldex then that's entirely at your own discretion.
my experience in the g2 syncro was only to relate 4wd to 2wd in the same car, i am more than aware that it uses vc.
i never claimed to have any technical information, but if haldex is used in the veyron, in principal, it should be good enough for any other cars. regardless of engine layout.
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Ohhhhh dear. We are dealing with thick Yanks here, who are clearly retarded with their knowledge of how the Haldex works. The Haldex does NOT "always work" - fact. The Haldex can NOT apportion 100% drive to the rear axle - fact.
the only mention of 100% drive is to the front wheels, pay closer attention :wink:
Ohhh dear - I think it is you who needs to pay closer attention! :wink: :smiley:
"Haldex is more capable than torsen of delivering traction to the road at the extremes of adhesion, simply because it has a wider operating range - 0 to 100% vs 30 to 70% in the torsen."
Now, pulling the detail of that statement appart, they are stating Torsen puts 30% to the front and 70% to the rears, and they also state the Haldex has a "wder operating range", and quote 100%. Now , they are clearly referring to the Torsens 70% rear (which is infact a load of boolox, because even the original Torsen could send 75% to the rear, the T2 Torsen could eventually send 80% to the rear, and the latest T3 Torsen can send 100% to the rear), and comparing it to their "claimed" 100% to the rear. If they are not tring to state 100% to the rear, then the whole logic and grammar of that statement is flawed.
So, with their "claim" that Haldex can send 100%, please do tell me how it disengages drive to the front axle? You can't, because it doesn't. The front wheel drive transaxle ALWAYS drives the front axle, irrespective of what drive is sent to the rear wheels. So even when the Haldex clutch locks at 100% clamping force (between the propshaft which is driven at exactly the same rate as the front axle - to the rear axle diff), then the distribution of drive is EXACTLY 50:50. A transaxle based Haldex based system as found in the Golf/A3/TT can NEVER have more than 50% drive to the rear - so those Yanks are just spewing out pure bollox.
Sorry, but Haldex is considerably inferior in its "application" of four wheel drive. Just because it relies on electronics, that means jack schit!
Yes, the torsen method is a better way to get more driven wheels at once, but then that isn't the best way to acheive optimum grip and control, is it :tongue:
just admit you're a quattro fanboy :grin:
So, explain why the Torsen isn't the best for "optimum grip and control"! :huh:
I'm actually a Torsen fanboy, if you must - because "quattro" is just an Audi trademark which includes Torsen and Haldex systems. :nerd: :smug: :tongue:
Haldex is the future. Whether a new C4S or veyron have any comparable qualities with a golf is irrelevant, the application of the technology is the proof in the pudding.
Nope - strongly disagree. As repeatedly stated the selection of Haldex vs Torsen is simply down to engineering packaging. Why does the latest RS4, which is more than a match for any Pork, save the GT3, still use Torsen? :smug:
At the end of the day, both the Torsen and Haldex will be used - simply because (a) they fit very different engineering needs, and (b) they both work in delivering 4wd traction.
To reference the once again much overused TG track as an example... R32 > S4 despite the 40bhp/tonne disadvantage. But then perhaps they left the manual crank handle in the grille and overfilled the oil in the headlamps and were overladen :lipsrsealed:
Huh - youv'e completely lost me on that one! :sad:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
If there was a better 4wd system available to use then they would have used it on the Veyron. This chat about 4wd haldex not being worthwhile due to the extra weight is pure nonsense. In my (admittedly short) experience as a passenger in a g2 syncro, it was clear that the grip levels are way beyond that of a 2wd car.
Oh FFS - read the posts properly.
The Veyron uses Haldex because it is a rear engined car. That means completely different engineering principles, and also means a separate "transfer box"-style gearbox, with offset rear propshaft and unequal length rear driveshafts - which physically means it can not use the Torsen as the centre diff. It is the overall engineering package which decides the type of four wheel drive system - not any particular operational preference! :nerd:
Furthermore, where did I state "4wd haldex not being worthwhile" - due to weight or otherwise. I didn't. I was merely comparing the "differences". :tongue:
Finally, the G2 synchro used the pre-haldex viscous coupling, and worked different to the Haldex, in that the rears were always driven (due to the need for keeping the fluid at the correct workable viscosity, same as viscous cooling fans). And being a "passenger" how do you know how much throttle was being applied? :rolleyes:
earlier on in the thread someone mentioned 4wd not being worth its weight. not every post is directed personally for your attention, however if you are on a personal vendetta against haldex then that's entirely at your own discretion.
Then if you weren't directing that particular issue at me, why did you quote my text? If there was some need to quote my text, then some kind of appropriate comment would have been more than useful! :tongue:
And for the record, I don't have a "Haldex vendetta", but I do have issues with blatant and physical inaccuracies regarding Haldex operation! If you personally condsider that a "vendetta", then can I suggest you pick up and read a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, to foil any further confusion on your "claim". :wink:
my experience in the g2 syncro was only to relate 4wd to 2wd in the same car, i am more than aware that it uses vc.
So, why bring in a completely different technology into the mix? :rolleyes:
i never claimed to have any technical information, but if haldex is used in the veyron, in principal, it should be good enough for any other cars. regardless of engine layout.
Oh dear. What part of "engineering" dont you understand. Just because Haldex is use in the Veyron, it categorically does NOT mean that Haldex is the "best" system. The Veyron using Haldex is simply down to engineering "limitations" - using your logic, why havn't Audi used Haldex in the RS4, the S6, the RS6, the S8? Simple, because the Torsen is the best product for the engineering applications of those cars. The fact that Torsen is such a perfect 4wd method means that Audi do NOT need to re-engineer said cars - because you can be absolutely certain, that if the Haldex was better than the Torsen, then Audi would have re-engineered them! :smug:
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Didnt know that about the haldex. Still not keen on any 4x4. IMO you cant beat a well setup rwd car. Even fwd can benefit over 4x4 if it has a good diff and is light enough. An example is the megane r26r which punches well above its weight on track.
Pure bolloxs. Sheer fantasy. Why was 4wd banned in F1? Why did 4wd transform overnight rallying. Why does the Veyron need 4wd. Why does any TDI A4 need 4wd. Why can't a lightweight, race prepared M3s keep anywhere near a lardy completely standard S4 on a wet track. Why cant a standard M3/AMG Merc keep up with an RS4 on a wet road?
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Sorry for being so blunt mate, but 4wd has massive advantages over either front or rear wheel drive, even Haldex systems. :smiley:
LOL i find it funny how people speak behind their keyboard, you can be as blunt as you want, i only take people seriously face to face. I dont need to wake up at all. 4X4 isnt the best thing since sliced bread, neither is the rs4 or its torsion 4x4. For rallying 4x4 is best. You keepmentioning wet roads all the time, on a dry road the m3 is more than a match for the rs4 aswell as many other cars. The megane is proof that fwd can work extremely well if set up properly, most of the best supercars in the world are rwd there must be a good reason for this. If you went to ferrari and said build your next car with 4x4 they would probably laugh and tell you to wake up and smell the coffee.
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Discounting the credibility of a source (audiworld) because someone once said something silly or wrong on there at some time or other pretty much voids any information; fact or opinion, that has ever, or will ever be posted on any forum anywhere :laugh: They may be stupid americans for the most part but then its not their fault you misinterpreted the 0-100% as being a rear driven range - which while is lovely for going sideways is not a goal set when looking to achieve maximum grip.
Torsen (although lets call it quattro from now on, because that is the name it deserves from the rally heritage regardless of what audi marketing reps want to stick badges on) just doesn't have the diversity, precision, timing or even close to the range of input or output you get with haldex which some people find 'twitchy' and others find just perfect.
Yes quattro is fine, but haldex is better (hence my point quoting the R32 is faster around the topgear track than an S4 despite the power/weight disadvantage. Not hugely scientific, but real world and tangible) and I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before the archaic technology is lost in the motoring history archives forever.
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Didnt know the r32 was quicker than the s4 round the tg track. Just shows that the haldex is very good, when i test drove an r32 i thought it hadled very well as did the s3 i drove. Never driven a torsion 4x4 so cant compare properly until i have driven one :smiley:
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To a certain extent it will come down to personal choice. But TT is just old and stuck in his ways so make your own mind up :tongue:
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Well ive had a Haldex "R32" and currently got "torsen" RS4, andi can honestly say they are both great systems but i cant tell any difference, and believe me ive tested hem tom their limits! :grin:
Each to their own though,i personally love 4WD gives you so much confidence in all weathers.I used to sh!t myself in the wet in my M3!! :laugh:
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Think you should lend me your RS4 for a weekend for a scientific comparison and write-up :lipsrsealed:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
Didnt Volkswagen design the Bugatti Veyron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
Yup, because Volkswagen Group own Bugatti. Without the brave move by on of the VW senior execs, the Veyron wouldn't exist!
Maybe they use similar technologies? What works for one of the worlds quickest cars will surely work for .:R32.
:smiley:
The Veyron AND the R32 both use Haldex, but as I've repeatedly stated, simply because of engineering requirements. The fact that the Veyron needs TWO haldex units, and tyres wider than two of the R32s doesn't enter the equation then? :tongue:
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Didnt know that about the haldex. Still not keen on any 4x4. IMO you cant beat a well setup rwd car. Even fwd can benefit over 4x4 if it has a good diff and is light enough. An example is the megane r26r which punches well above its weight on track.
Pure bolloxs. Sheer fantasy. Why was 4wd banned in F1? Why did 4wd transform overnight rallying. Why does the Veyron need 4wd. Why does any TDI A4 need 4wd. Why can't a lightweight, race prepared M3s keep anywhere near a lardy completely standard S4 on a wet track. Why cant a standard M3/AMG Merc keep up with an RS4 on a wet road?
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Sorry for being so blunt mate, but 4wd has massive advantages over either front or rear wheel drive, even Haldex systems. :smiley:
LOL i find it funny how people speak behind their keyboard, you can be as blunt as you want, i only take people seriously face to face. I dont need to wake up at all. 4X4 isnt the best thing since sliced bread, neither is the rs4 or its torsion 4x4. For rallying 4x4 is best. You keepmentioning wet roads all the time, on a dry road the m3 is more than a match for the rs4 aswell as many other cars. The megane is proof that fwd can work extremely well if set up properly, most of the best supercars in the world are rwd there must be a good reason for this. If you went to ferrari and said build your next car with 4x4 they would probably laugh and tell you to wake up and smell the coffee.
Oh dear. ETTO, but I bet you are the only one to have that opinion.
Have a nice day!
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I'll have a lovely day thanks :grin:
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
Didnt Volkswagen design the Bugatti Veyron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
Yup, because Volkswagen Group own Bugatti. Without the brave move by on of the VW senior execs, the Veyron wouldn't exist!
Maybe they use similar technologies? What works for one of the worlds quickest cars will surely work for .:R32.
:smiley:
The Veyron AND the R32 both use Haldex, but as I've repeatedly stated, simply because of engineering requirements. The fact that the Veyron needs TWO haldex units, and tyres wider than two of the R32s doesn't enter the equation then? :tongue:
TT the reason I wrote that is because VW also designed the Veyron and what I am trying to highlight is that if they can create such an amzing Haldex system for a Veyron then you can hardly say the Haldex in the .:R32 is not up to standard...
You are the only one against Haldex it seems and I have experience of Audi Quattro and I love it. I have also been in a .:R32 and must admit it didnt feel any different and that was with the same driver who just happens to have completed and advanced driving course at Audi in South Africa.
What Sharpie is saying is that if Haldex is good enough for a Veyron you cant fault it. And yes I know the Veyron cant do the whole torsen 4 wheel drive system but think about it. Almost everything in the Veyron had to either be designed from scratch or changed to work in the Veyron. IF they doubted Haldex they would have come up with something new and better.
I say this with no mechanical expertise at all and I admit that but sometimes common sense comes into play.
Peace out... :laugh:
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....Now then, guys - T_T is only sharing a depth of information about the quattro/4WD and Haldex differences and how they work - A valuable education imo. No need for anyone to take offence and take posts personally either way. One man's meat is another man's poison etc and we each have our own individual preferences.
:cool:
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Discounting the credibility of a source (audiworld) because someone once said something silly or wrong on there at some time or other pretty much voids any information; fact or opinion, that has ever, or will ever be posted on any forum anywhere :laugh: They may be stupid americans for the most part but then its not their fault you misinterpreted the 0-100% as being a rear driven range - which while is lovely for going sideways is not a goal set when looking to achieve maximum grip.
Erm, I did NOT misinterpret their 100% claim! :rolleyes:
And sure, on all forums, you get the odd muppet, I think you'll find that on most UK forums, we also have enough people with intelligence to sort the wheat from the chaff. How do you explain AudiWorlds FSI/S4 claim - it certainly wasn't from any official press release from Audi (which AudiWorld claim to use), and nor is it from lifting any S4 bonnets - sorry "hoods". :rolleyes:
Torsen (although lets call it quattro from now on, because that is the name it deserves from the rally heritage regardless of what audi marketing reps want to stick badges on) just doesn't have the diversity, precision, timing or even close to the range of input or output you get with haldex which some people find 'twitchy' and others find just perfect.
Now you are just avoiding a question I posed. Please tell me how the Haldex disengages drive from the front axle? I does NOT - which means that the R32/TT/A3/S3 Haldex system can ONLY go from (front:rear, in case of any doubt) 100:0 to 50:50 (a 50% variation, in one direction only). How can that be better than the current Torsen range of 80:20 to 0:100 (an 80% variation, in BOTH directions) ???
What about the fact that Haldex completely disengages for braking, thereby not utilising the rear axle to assist with engine braking?
Sorry, but Haldex does NOT have the traction range, nor the engine braking abilities has Torsen. Yes, you can alter the behaviour of the Haldex to be more proactive, and even have it set "on" all the while. But to do the latter, and you then loose ABS on the rears (not good, because modern ABS also controls the brake bias). And you can NEVER (on a front engined car) set a Haldex up to give 100% (or anything above 50% to the rear axle).
Yes quattro is fine, but haldex is better (hence my point quoting the R32 is faster around the topgear track than an S4 despite the power/weight disadvantage. Not hugely scientific, but real world and tangible) and I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before the archaic technology is lost in the motoring history archives forever.
Got a link to the TopGear stuff?
And do I presume you work somewhere near Ingoldstadt or Nekarsulm (or however they are spelt! :embarassed:) - because I don't think that the engineers at Audi AG or quattro GmbH would agree about the the Torsen being "archaic", nor do all the other completely separate OEM manufacturers who use Torsen.
BTW, what is your opinion on Quaiffe diffs, being as this is a Golf forum, before we all go massively OT.
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....Now then, guys - T_T is only sharing a depth of information about the quattro/4WD and Haldex differences and how they work - A valuable education imo. No need for anyone to take offence and take posts personally either way. One man's meat is another man's poison etc and we each have our own individual preferences.
:cool:
you might need this if you have problems crawling back out
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:pLVSl3bSVAbV9M:http://eagletreeherbs.com/)
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To a certain extent it will come down to personal choice.
What!?!? :huh:
But TT is just old and stuck in his ways so make your own mind up :tongue:
Erm, I may be gettin on a bit (ish), but I certainly aint "stuck in my ways"! :rolleyes:
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BTW, what is your opinion on Quaiffe diffs, being as this is a Golf forum, before we all go massively OT.
Ask RedRobin. HE is getting one in less than a month and can comapre it to a .:R32. His rite up got lost in the server crash.
Mike
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Didnt know the r32 was quicker than the s4 round the tg track. Just shows that the haldex is very good, when i test drove an r32 i thought it hadled very well as did the s3 i drove.
The R32 and the S3 use an identical Haldex, and have identical suspension setup, and share an identical floorpan (chassis) - so they will both be on a par with each other, bar any differences in tyres.
Never driven a torsion 4x4 so cant compare properly until i have driven one :smiley:
Then go drive one. You might just be pleasantly surprised. Don't forget, most Audi garages will let you have the car for a whole day, unaccompanied. :smiley:
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I know the s3 is the same as the r32 underneath, i felt the s3 turned in a little better than the R, i put it down to the s3 being lighter up front.
Wouldnt mind going in a quattro to see what its like, will have a go soon and report back.
Gotta love test drives :grin:
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Oh dear, we're still stuck on the interpretation of that sentence :laugh: With a torsen system, even the clever T-3 which allows 100% rwd, you cannot kill drive to the rear wheels, with haldex you can. At least that's how I read it.. since like you say any other way would be inaccurate. That is what puts the haldex ahead in my opinion - having drive to the rear wheels in ALL circumstances is not ideal (its not like they thought, 'hey lets disable the haldex completely under braking to make it more fun and likely to kill you!' :grin: ) ABS has evolved to the point that any assisted engine braking from the driven rear axle is just unnecessary and a waste of energy (save the whales, man.)
You can get the whole TG power lap board here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track#Power_Laps
Wouldn't worry about people still working with and developing torsen stuff, they'll learn eventually. Haldex is the iPod, torsen a gramophone. People will love them both but one is sitting on a shelf in a museum.
As for Quaife, while anarchistic habit pulls me toward the Peloquin brand just because of the way it came about - ATB diff has to be the best handling mod available for any 1wd Golf (dangle dangle), but other than a brief stint in a peloquin'd up Rallye I don't have any experience with them in '4wd' applications.
p.s older than me = stuck in their ways, no matter how much Mr. Brown accuses me of agism!
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before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.
And . . . .
It costs a gazillion times more beer tokens than a Golf, has over a thousand horsepower, and has tyres wider than Cherie Blairs humongous gob.
I think your example is slightly irrelevent in the context of the Volkswagen Golf. <yawn>
Didnt Volkswagen design the Bugatti Veyron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
Yup, because Volkswagen Group own Bugatti. Without the brave move by on of the VW senior execs, the Veyron wouldn't exist!
Maybe they use similar technologies? What works for one of the worlds quickest cars will surely work for .:R32.
:smiley:
The Veyron AND the R32 both use Haldex, but as I've repeatedly stated, simply because of engineering requirements. The fact that the Veyron needs TWO haldex units, and tyres wider than two of the R32s doesn't enter the equation then? :tongue:
TT the reason I wrote that is because VW also designed the Veyron and what I am trying to highlight is that if they can create such an amzing Haldex system for a Veyron then you can hardly say the Haldex in the .:R32 is not up to standard...
You have misread me then. I'm not saying the R32, or any Haldex system "isn't up to standard". I did state the Haldex can give some unusual handling "characteristics" - that is my personal opinion, and I'm perfectly at liberty to post my "opinion" here. I also accept that others may have a differing opinion, and that's fine too. But the most crucial "crux" of my postings, are to dispel the blatant, and completely unfounded myth that Haldex can apportion more than 50% torque to the axle it is controlling.
And VW did not create the Haldex system - they merely purchase the Haldex unit from the Swedish Haldex AB.
You are the only one against Haldex it seems and I have experience of Audi Quattro and I love it. I have also been in a .:R32 and must admit it didnt feel any different and that was with the same driver who just happens to have completed and advanced driving course at Audi in South Africa.
I am NOT against Haldex! :rolleyes: The Haldex system works, but I'm just highting its limitations! :smiley:
And the fact that one person cant tell the difference between on system and another is hardly scientific. And I can't comment on RSA "Advanced" driving courses, but going by the state of some of the pure dangerous folk in the UK who gladly display the "IAM" sticker on their windscreen, and then pull out of junctions, or slam on the anchors in the middle of a roundabout - I'll gladly give them a wide berth and treat them with the appropriate contempt. If you are talking about "Don Palmer" types of advanced driving, then that is another ball game altogether! :wink:
Finally, I'd be fairly confident that Sabine would be able to tell the difference between Haldex and Torsen! :smug:
What Sharpie is saying is that if Haldex is good enough for a Veyron you cant fault it.
Sorry Mike, but that is the wrong logic. Haldex has to be used on the Veyron because it physically can not use Torsen.
And yes I know the Veyron cant do the whole torsen 4 wheel drive system but think about it. Almost everything in the Veyron had to either be designed from scratch or changed to work in the Veyron. IF they doubted Haldex they would have come up with something new and better.
Hummmmm . . . the Veyron wasn't really "designed from scratch". They utilised the VR/W engine technology which was already in use in other VAG products. Michelin supplied the tyres, AP the brake calipers, SGL the discs, BorgWarner the main gearbox, TRW the electronic handbrake, Behr for all the radiators and intercoolers, etc.
But you completely miss the point, that the Torsen was impossible to use as the centre diff. Indeed, it doesn't have a centre diff at all. It HAS to use two separate Haldex units, and that is purely down to its basic design. If it had that mighty engine up the front, and raised the engine up high enough to use a front diff mounted on the longitudinal centre line of the car - then they would have definately been able to use Torsen. But then it would have been really fugly, and impossbile to drive, unless you had monster truck wheels - and basically wouldn't have sold.
It is a similar situation to using brown paper bags verses plastic cartons for packaging. Your bunch of grapes, or a block of cheese might be fine in a brown paper bag from you local market stall - but a pint of milk in a paper bag just aint gonna happen - unless you want to "water" the pavement! See what I'm trying to say? :smiley:
I say this with no mechanical expertise at all and I admit that but sometimes common sense comes into play.
Peace out... :laugh:
Certainly a lively debate! :kiss:
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....Now then, guys - T_T is only sharing a depth of information about the quattro/4WD and Haldex differences and how they work - A valuable education imo. No need for anyone to take offence and take posts personally either way. One man's meat is another man's poison etc and we each have our own individual preferences.
:cool:
Thank-you Robin. It seems I have an "allie". :wink: :smiley:
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Is any of this actually linked with excuses to buy a MKVI? :grin:
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hush you! it's not often I get to have a full on technical discussion on here with people that actually know their material :grin:
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Is any of this actually linked with excuses to buy a MKVI? :grin:
better delete this thread hurdy, that would upset a few people :grin:
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I know the s3 is the same as the r32 underneath, i felt the s3 turned in a little better than the R, i put it down to the s3 being lighter up front.
Yeah, the R32s VR6 lump really is quite a bit heaver than the S3s four pot turbo lump.
BTW, was it the latest S3 with the 265PS 2.0TFSI you had a go in?
Wouldnt mind going in a quattro to see what its like, will have a go soon and report back.
Gotta love test drives :grin:
Go for it. I found it very hard to refuse the keys to the latest RS6 for a whold day. It would have been mighty rude not to! :evil:
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I know the s3 is the same as the r32 underneath, i felt the s3 turned in a little better than the R, i put it down to the s3 being lighter up front.
Yeah, the R32s VR6 lump really is quite a bit heaver than the S3s four pot turbo lump.
BTW, was it the latest S3 with the 265PS 2.0TFSI you had a go in?
Wouldnt mind going in a quattro to see what its like, will have a go soon and report back.
Gotta love test drives :grin:
Go for it. I found it very hard to refuse the keys to the latest RS6 for a whold day. It would have been mighty rude not to! :evil:
Yes it was the new s3,
Doubt the audi dealer would let me have the rs6 for the day, im only 20 :grin:. Dont think i would want to buy an rs6 at this moment in time, would lose alot of money on it very quickly. My dad has lost quite a bit off his e60 m5. Had it nearly 3 years but to sell it now would be silly, plus he enjoys it too much :grin:
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Oh dear, we're still stuck on the interpretation of that sentence :laugh:
You'll need to surgically remove "Torsen" from me - it flows through my veins in the form of green gunge! :grin: :grin:
With a torsen system, even the clever T-3 which allows 100% rwd, you cannot kill drive to the rear wheels, with haldex you can. At least that's how I read it.. since like you say any other way would be inaccurate.
Yep, hurrah, spot on! :kiss:
But I don't really see what advantages are gained from completely isolating the drive to the rear, on a car designed for four wheel drive? LandRovers, and other dedicated "off roaders" don't (unless they throw the usual Landie trick of throwing the rear prop!). :huh: :undecided:
That is what puts the haldex ahead in my opinion - having drive to the rear wheels in ALL circumstances is not ideal (its not like they thought, 'hey lets disable the haldex completely under braking to make it more fun and likely to kill you!' :grin: ) ABS has evolved to the point that any assisted engine braking from the driven rear axle is just unnecessary and a waste of energy (save the whales, man.)
OK, I can see where you are coming from - about not wanting all the drive to go to the rear at all times (accelerating hard down hill and round a bend - it would be good for more torque to be going to the front than rear - but Torsen could do this without "thinking", whereas Haldex wouldn't be able to do so, because Haldex don't utilise an inclination sensor in their electronics). But for completely removing drive to the rear??? :huh:
And I don't see your point on the ABS issue either. Because on a Haldex car, the front axle will still be utilising all the available engine braking, with the rear, effectively just trailing and not adding to the same level of stability which is provided under 4wd traction.
You can get the whole TG power lap board here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track#Power_Laps
OK, ta, will look later.
Wouldn't worry about people still working with and developing torsen stuff, they'll learn eventually. Haldex is the iPod, torsen a gramophone. People will love them both but one is sitting on a shelf in a museum.
Oi - nob off with all your "digital" music! Vinyl rulez! :evil:
As for Quaife, while anarchistic habit pulls me toward the Peloquin brand just because of the way it came about - ATB diff has to be the best handling mod available for any 1wd Golf (dangle dangle), but other than a brief stint in a peloquin'd up Rallye I don't have any experience with them in '4wd' applications.
But, but, but - let me get this perfectly clear - are you saying that both the Peloquin and the Quaiffe are good diffs? :smiley:
p.s older than me = stuck in their ways, no matter how much Mr. Brown accuses me of agism!
I'm so grey, the mrs uses my head for a mirror - not now I've shaved it off though! :evil:
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Is any of this actually linked with excuses to buy a MKVI? :grin:
Of course it is Mr Hurdy - we are all discussing weather to go for the 4motion versions! :tongue: :evil:
BTW, bump your DSG thread. I want to give you and answer to your slip-slip-slip prob, but can't find the thread. :wink: :smiley:
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Back on the subject of Haldex....
I recently drove an APS Stage3 Mk5 R32 with Haldex in Race mode and did so 'in anger' (actually calmly but as the expression goes). I found it twitched when powering out of a large roundabout - Not a problem but I drove it back-to-back with a Mk5 GTI highly modified by VW Racing and with a Quaife diff. The point is that this particular GTI felt much quicker on the same roundabout and was much better planted than the R32 on the whole route. In fact I didn't manage to unsettle the GTI though I didn't really want to on a public road! ESP was On in both cars.
The only time I've found ESP intrusive has been on this issue of tyres (another thread).
I've ridden in quattro S4's but never driven one, so I can't make a comparison.
P.S.- I think that all our chat about Haldex and quattro etc is very relevant to the Mk6, or at least to the rumoured GTI-R version with "AWD". I've also learnt a lot about Haldex etc from this thread.
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I know the s3 is the same as the r32 underneath, i felt the s3 turned in a little better than the R, i put it down to the s3 being lighter up front.
Yeah, the R32s VR6 lump really is quite a bit heaver than the S3s four pot turbo lump.
BTW, was it the latest S3 with the 265PS 2.0TFSI you had a go in?
Wouldnt mind going in a quattro to see what its like, will have a go soon and report back.
Gotta love test drives :grin:
Go for it. I found it very hard to refuse the keys to the latest RS6 for a whold day. It would have been mighty rude not to! :evil:
Yes it was the new s3,
OK, ta.
Doubt the audi dealer would let me have the rs6 for the day, im only 20 :grin:.
It really depends on what you already drive, and how well you know your local dealer. I've known my local Audi dealer for over 10 years, and they certainly didn't dangle RS, or even S keys when I first wandered in there. They did let me loose in a B5 A4 2.8q for the day. I suppose it all depends on weather you just want a jolly, or have real intent on considering a purchase.
Dont think i would want to buy an rs6 at this moment in time, would lose alot of money on it very quickly. My dad has lost quite a bit off his e60 m5. Had it nearly 3 years but to sell it now would be silly, plus he enjoys it too much :grin:
Yeah, the RS6 really is silly money. Shame really, because I'd really consider swapping my RS4 for one, but by the time I'd spec'd ceramic anchors, recaro buckets, sunroof, de-restricted, and uprated ICE, I'd be looking at about £90k :shocked: :shocked: That's just silly money, and you are probably into GT3 territory.
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Back on the subject of Haldex....
I recently drove an APS Stage3 Mk5 R32 with Haldex in Race mode and did so 'in anger' (actually calmly but as the expression goes). I found it twitched when powering out of a large roundabout - Not a problem but I drove it back-to-back with a Mk5 GTI highly modified by VW Racing and with a Quaife diff. The point is that this particular GTI felt much quicker on the same roundabout and was much better planted than the R32 on the whole route. In fact I didn't manage to unsettle the GTI though I didn't really want to on a public road! ESP was On in both cars.
The only time I've found ESP intrusive ahs been on this issue of tyres (another thread).
I've ridden in quattro S4's but never driven one, so I can't make a comparison.
Interesting comments, thanks.
Do you happen to know if the APS R32 had its Haldex permanently locked on in race mode? Because if so, then you can get whats called "transmission wind-up" on 4WDs with the centre diff locked. Being as the Haldex is not a diff, if it were locked fully, then cornering would produce the characteristic twitching on corners.
Incidentally, all this 4wd corner twitching reminds of identical symptoms from RalliArt Mitsubishi Evos and Gallants, which also use electronic "diffs".
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Do you happen to know if the APS R32 had its Haldex permanently locked on in race mode? Because if so, then you can get whats called "transmission wind-up" on 4WDs with the centre diff locked. Being as the Haldex is not a diff, if it were locked fully, then cornering would produce the characteristic twitching on corners.
Incidentally, all this 4wd corner twitching reminds of identical symptoms from RalliArt Mitsubishi Evos and Gallants, which also use electronic "diffs".
....It has a 3-way switch, one being Race mode. I don't know if Marcus has it switched to Race constantly.
I'm looking forward to sharing my soon upcoming Quaife experience. I think, but I'm not certain, that such diffs can be fitted to R32's front and back.
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I know the s3 is the same as the r32 underneath, i felt the s3 turned in a little better than the R, i put it down to the s3 being lighter up front.
Yeah, the R32s VR6 lump really is quite a bit heaver than the S3s four pot turbo lump.
BTW, was it the latest S3 with the 265PS 2.0TFSI you had a go in?
Wouldnt mind going in a quattro to see what its like, will have a go soon and report back.
Gotta love test drives :grin:
Go for it. I found it very hard to refuse the keys to the latest RS6 for a whold day. It would have been mighty rude not to! :evil:
Yes it was the new s3,
OK, ta.
Doubt the audi dealer would let me have the rs6 for the day, im only 20 :grin:.
It really depends on what you already drive, and how well you know your local dealer. I've known my local Audi dealer for over 10 years, and they certainly didn't dangle RS, or even S keys when I first wandered in there. They did let me loose in a B5 A4 2.8q for the day. I suppose it all depends on weather you just want a jolly, or have real intent on considering a purchase.
Dont think i would want to buy an rs6 at this moment in time, would lose alot of money on it very quickly. My dad has lost quite a bit off his e60 m5. Had it nearly 3 years but to sell it now would be silly, plus he enjoys it too much :grin:
Yeah, the RS6 really is silly money. Shame really, because I'd really consider swapping my RS4 for one, but by the time I'd spec'd ceramic anchors, recaro buckets, sunroof, de-restricted, and uprated ICE, I'd be looking at about £90k :shocked: :shocked: That's just silly money, and you are probably into GT3 territory.
I really like the rs6 but wouldnt buy one so wouldnt waste the dealers time. Driving an ed30 at the moment but i think the TTRS is on the cards for next year, 5cyl engines just sound nuts :evil:
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I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy.
Hmm. . . . I wonder why I experienced this twitch on the A3 3.2 quattro, which has the identical pwertrain, transmission, suspension, brakes etc as your R32 - and it was apparent weather the ESP was on or off! :undecided:
I certainly havn't driven the R32 for any extended period in "anger", but when I did "provoke" it - it displayed the same uneasy "steppy" torque transfer. The sales bint in the back asked me if I'd broken something, so I showed her again. She relied "oh youve got the ESP working" - to which I replied, "sorry dear, but I turned it off before we set off". To which an argument ensued with the sales bint about me not being "allowed" to turn off the ESP on test drives. And I kindly pointed out my S4 in the car park . . . and the V10 S6 which I'd borrowed recently - and all driven with the ESP off. She then instucted me to end the test drive immediately, and return straight to the stealership slowly. As you can guess, I didn't buy an R32, nor any car from that stealership, and she no longer works there.
So, I dunno, but EVERY Haldex car I've driven has always displayed the same handling traits. Maybe different tyres are causing differing handling characteristics - just like on the Mich PS2 vs Goodyear thread. What seems to be of concern though, is that I thought the Golf V GTI, and presumably the R32 too, was supposed to have an enhanced ESP system, which was meant to be less intrusive. I certainly don't get any real intervention from the ESP on the GTI, unless I'm driving like a tool in the wet or sommat. Even with the current mix of Mich PS2 and Dunlop ShyteMaxx, the ESP allows a considerable tollerance, particularly when compared to say the Golf V GT TDI 170! :undecided:
For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.
Is the above happening in a straight line, or when cornering. If it does it when cornering, it may be working as designed, being as the VR6 lump is quite a heavy beast, when compared to the GTI 4-pot lump.
Maybe your ESP is not working correctly! :undecided:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I've never stated that Haldex doesn't work! :embarassed: I just personally find it works very differently to Torsen, and I can sense those differences. Perhaps if I'd never owned my S4/RS4, and only driven Haldex cars, I may have formed a different opinion! :smiley:
It only happens on fast sweeping bends (a certain downhill strech I encounter on the way home). Its very slight but you can feel the car making minor adjustments to keep it in line... but as I say this is only if I hit the bend at a high speed 8.5+mph. I again have not owned or driven a Torsen vehicle so cant really comment on the differences. But I do stand with Topher on this one (0bviously :grin:) esp the weight of his post about the R32 being quicker than the lighter more powerful S4
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almost.. S4 is heavier, but still 40bhp/ton advantage
edit: and just a little bit of on-topicness.. nosied at a few shots of the mk6 over the last few days and it isn't growing on me yet, so unless they do a really tasty 'R' version (with the mighty mighty haldex) that isn't S3 money i'll be praying for a high performance version of the 'rocco instead
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Ok so after some light reading on here(yikes) I decided to give a friend of mine a phone call and ask if he was ok if I drove his R32 to compare it to my GTI.
I was in fact going to compare it to my S4 which I sold a few months ago, but didn't tell him that :wink:
Ok so here goes. Hoofed it off the line in the dry, it was already warmed up, so fully dumped the clutch at big revs! Big squeals from the front, seemingly up to about 10mph then it seemed to gain some grip and get the power down. He didnt mind me hammering the car as he's agreed a trade in price and waiting for a BMW M3 (I did try talk him out of it!).
Compared to my standard GTI, I actually found it quite "bland", ok it sounded nicer than the GTI (but no way near as good as the S4 mind you), but a lot less power than I had expected. It has just been serviced for 30k miles, just over 2 years old from memory. It went Ok, but not impressive and after hammering it for about half an hour around the coast roads here, I experianced some twitchiness. The R32 in no way felt as planted, or as powerful as the S4.
I have a "run" I use to test cars out, it's my way home from work, I have been using it for about 7 years so know the road very well. I did the usual run a couple of times and found it cornered with less grip and felt a lot slower than the S4. in fact at some points I actually thought I had either a wheel off the ground, or the 4wd was playing up. It felt too bouncy and twitchy for my liking.
After owning the S4 for 2 years, thrashing it from new and taking it for laps of the "Ring", I feel its a far faster car, the 4WD is far superior and the car much more planted. I wouldn't own an R32, I test drove 2 of them when test driving the GTI and wasn't impressed with it then either. I'm guessing Haldex isnt for me. Hammering the S4 from a standing start, it just launches off and away you go, wet or dry. I can only assume Audi use Quattro as its the better product for their range of engines and superior to Haldex?
TT in this case I'd have to fully agree with you, IMO and limited knowledge of 4WD systems, (but plenty of experiance of driving them), its Quattro/Torsen all the way for me.
Oh and my S4 B7 wasn't FSI, as far as I'm aware the RS4 has the FSI engine, not the S4.
And a RWD car handles better than a 4WD car?, your kidding right? Not a chance. Wet or dry, 4WD is far better. Period.
Still have no idea how the R32 beat the lap time of the S4 mind you (by under half a second if I remember right?), I guess the Stig was busy playing with his heated seats, the S4 was running on low octane or something? I had raced a few R32's, no trouble at all.. the wife actually reminded me I overtook a black one on the 2nd lap I took at the Nurburgring. The owner came over to me for a chat afterwards, (UK owner) and commented how he liked the RS4's. I had to explain that I only had an S4, but had changed the front grill to an RS4 version as I thought it looked better. :wink:
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Good to get your opinion there NewGolf. But just because you went past a driver isnt really the most credible way of judging which car is the better at handling.
The fact is the R32 is quicker when driven round a track by a pro driver. it doesnt matter what feels faster... all that matters is what is faster. I have said on here previously that my brothers GTTDi feels faster than my R32... but I know for sure it isnt.
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Good to get your opinion there NewGolf. But just because you went past a driver isnt really the most credible way of judging which car is the better at handling.
The fact is the R32 is quicker when driven round a track by a pro driver. it doesnt matter what feels faster... all that matters is what is faster. I have said on here previously that my brothers GTTDi feels faster than my R32... but I know for sure it isnt.
I wasn't judging the car to be better by me overtaking 1 driver, nor do I think you should take 1 car doing 1 lap of the TG track to set a benchmark for that model against another. My opinions are based on my experiances of driving both, in anger! For us to have this discussion in depth, have you driven an S4? I seem to remember JC's comment of the S4 against the M3 was "This is harnessed lunacy". What if the TG test driven S4 was down on power and the R32 at its peak, not a fair comparison IMO. I've driven 2 S4's now and 3 R32's, they are both different animals. The S4 is a seriously powerful car. When test driving the GTI and R32 from having driven the S4 to the dealer, my wife found the GTI the faster of the 2and found the R32 "flat", her words not mine. No offence to any R32 owners, nor am I dissing the car. :smiley:
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TBH a pro driver testing a car around a test track is quite a good basis for a comparison... and i doubt audi would give the TG boys a car which was down on power.
My point is... even tho you say the R32 felt flat this is not the best basis to say that the Torsen is better or more capable than the Haldex.. which is kind of what this thread has turned into. Chrissy who owned an R32 and now has a RS4 was unable to spot any differences despite pushing them both. I am not knocking what your opinion is as like I said previously.. I havent driven a S4. My point is that although the haldex is classed as twitchy... I have only found this to be the case in one instance, and admittedly I was over cooking it.
Aside from that I would just say that the figures dont lie... I have heard many pro drivers say that the Haldex is a fantastic system
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I mentioned that a well setup rwd/fwd car would be just as quick or quicker than a 4x4 in the dry. The best thing to do to a car to increase performance is to shed as much weight as possible. If fwd doesnt work as well as 4x4 in the dry why has the megane r26r lapped the ring way quicker than all of the other hot hatches inc some supercars which are also 4x4.
In the wet the 4x4 will obviously be quicker but wheres the fun in having the car do all the work for you?
Theres nothing more rewarding than controlling a sweet rear wheel drift and knowing that you did it and not the car. :smiley:
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Do you happen to know if the APS R32 had its Haldex permanently locked on in race mode? Because if so, then you can get whats called "transmission wind-up" on 4WDs with the centre diff locked. Being as the Haldex is not a diff, if it were locked fully, then cornering would produce the characteristic twitching on corners.
Incidentally, all this 4wd corner twitching reminds of identical symptoms from RalliArt Mitsubishi Evos and Gallants, which also use electronic "diffs".
....It has a 3-way switch, one being Race mode. I don't know if Marcus has it switched to Race constantly.
But does the race mode (presumably being the most "aggressive" set) actually lock the Haldex clutch permanently?
I'm looking forward to sharing my soon upcoming Quaife experience. I think, but I'm not certain, that such diffs can be fitted to R32's front and back.
Hmm, the same (part no) Quaiffe diff wont, because the final drive internals of the front box will be very different to the rear final drive. I'm not really sure, but on thinking about it, I doubt the R32 rear end could use the Quaiffe, because it can't use EDL on the rear.