Author Topic: Excuses to buy a MKVI  (Read 22824 times)

Offline luca

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #70 on: 11 August 2008, 12:29 »
So a benefit of the haldex over the torsen 4x4 would be that it would put more power through the wheels as it only sends power through the front when accelerating in gear, or in high grip conditions when the rear doesnt need to kick in. Therefore not sapping as much power as a permanent 4x4 setup.

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #71 on: 11 August 2008, 12:29 »
the wheels spin is very very minimal. Anything up to 50% (I was pretty sure it was 80% but im not gonna argue with what TT wrote in another thread) of the power can be sent to the rears within a split second. I find this better than simple 4wd as you still get the joys of FWD everyday driving without the understeer.

I see you edited your original post!  :wink:  :smiley:

But yes, you are now correct, in that up to a max of 50% can be sent to the rears.  The front axle is always driven though, no matter what the road conditions or available traction!  :nerd:
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Offline luca

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #72 on: 11 August 2008, 12:32 »
Dont haldex do a control unit that can send more power to the back when needed?
iirc its an adjustable one with 3 settings.

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sharpie

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #73 on: 11 August 2008, 12:39 »
before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, consider the fact that the bugatti veyron uses a haldex system.

Offline topher

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #74 on: 11 August 2008, 12:50 »
interesting read of haldex vs. torsen here http://forums.audiworld.com/a3/msgs/9923.phtml

imo - haldex is a better, more efficient technology. The Veyron uses the same principle, and so will the next generation of AWD Porsches. Torsen diffs belong back in the era of leaf springs and carburettors.

Offline R32UK

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #75 on: 11 August 2008, 13:01 »
I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy. Hence the reason when raod tests are carried out on the r32 they no doubt test it with the esp off and all rave about its handling ability!

For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.

NewGolf

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #76 on: 11 August 2008, 13:02 »
What does the new TTS use, as I believe it has a transverse 2ltr 4 cylinder engine. If it is quattro/torsen, why cant they use that in the new GTI-R  :huh:

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #77 on: 11 August 2008, 13:03 »
So a benefit of the haldex over the torsen 4x4 would be that it would put more power through the wheels as it only sends power through the front when accelerating in gear,

Erm, I think you may be slightly confused over your front vs rear and acceleration needs.

However, it is sort of identical to Torsen, in that Torsen sends torque (not "power", as power is merely a rate of work, whereas "torque" is a "turning" force) to those wheels which can use it.  The simple fact, though, is that all four wheels can utilise the traction, and that is what the Torsen utilises beautifully (proactively), and the Haldex is noticeably more "agricultural" in that it works "reactively", ie, AFTER traction is lost.

To clarify, you state that Haldex only sends torque to those wheels which needs it - but I say, so does the Torsen!

or in high grip conditions when the rear doesnt need to kick in.

Very subjective.  Whilst the rear may not need any drive, for optimum vehicle dynamics, it is considerably better for all four wheels to be permanently driven, which is where Torsen has an undisputed example.  It is just like saying that because the front brakes may deal with up to 75% of the stopping power, why not ditch the rear brakes?  Again, the simple fact is that even when the front anchors may provide that 75% of stopping power, the rear brakes provide a major factor in vehicle stability.

Therefore not sapping as much power as a permanent 4x4 setup.

Ahhhhh.  That must be the classic misconception of an Haldex "advantage"!  :rolleyes:

Firstly, Haldex systems require some kind of transmission "transfer box"-type of system to distribute torque to more than one axle.  So does the Torsen system.  = a score draw.

Haldex systems require a prop shaft to send drive to the remote (rear) axle.  So does the Torsen.  Another score draw.

Haldex systems require an additional remote axle cross differential.  Guess what, so does Torsen.  Nobody seems to have scored that winning goal yet!

Haldex systems require additional remote axle wheel drive shafts.  You know what the answer is, same as Torsen!

Now, on to the specifics of "power" requirements.  On a Haldex system, the underfloor prop shaft is ALWAYS driven, even if zero drive is going to the rear wheels.  The Torsen only spins its propshaft whilst the rear axle is driven (the fact that the rear axle is always driven is indicitive of the Torsen prop being permanently driven).  Now, this is a clear advantage to the Torsen system, because whilst the Haldex may not be driving its rear wheels, the Haldex is still suffering driveline losses in the bevel gears which drive the prop - a wasteful efficiency loss.  If the Haldex was mounted within the transaxle, or before the prop, this wouldn't be so bad, but then this scenario would noticieably alter the front to rear weight distribution.  Not good.

Furthermore, even when zero drive is being sent to the rear wheels, the rear axle hypoid final drive (part of the rear diff) will still sap the kinetic energy (and therefore motive power of the engine) (it is a design fact of hypoid drives, and explains why they need thick smelly heavy duty lubes).  The CV joints in the rear driveshafts will also sap kinetic energy (unless the drive shaft is exactly in line, which is highly doubtful, considering dynamic movements from the independent rear suspension).
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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NewGolf

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #78 on: 11 August 2008, 13:05 »
I must say that I originally would have agreed with TT's explanation of the twitch! This really can scare the shizzel out of you... like i found when I was first got the car and was pushing on round a corner. However with time, and then the discovery of the ESp switch I dont find this a problem any more. I know exactly how the car is going to behave. I find that its the ESP that causes it to be twitchy. Hence the reason when raod tests are carried out on the r32 they no doubt test it with the esp off and all rave about its handling ability!

For me the ESP provides just too much involvement in your driving... individually braking each wheel as it sees neccessary even when you just coasting. Turn it off and you have yourself an amazing handling car!! The haldex works like a dream... providing the right amount of power just where you need it.

Just to note, my 4WD S4 handled a lot better than any other 2wd car I've ever driven, and was never ever twitchy. In the wet I drove it the same as I did in the dry, (apart from braking distances of course). I'm a 4WD fan but not sure about the Haldex system...good old "Quattro" I say  :smiley:

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #79 on: 11 August 2008, 13:07 »
Dont haldex do a control unit that can send more power to the back when needed?
iirc its an adjustable one with 3 settings.

Yup, an "aftermarket" Haldex controller.  Which can still only send a max of 50% torque to the rear, still relies on electronics, still requires maintenance, still disengages the rear axle when the brake pedal is pressed (otherwise the ABS won't work), still has no rear axle EDL, and being an aftermarket product, will have warranty implications.  :smug:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo