Author Topic: Excuses to buy a MKVI  (Read 22789 times)

NewGolf

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #60 on: 10 August 2008, 15:43 »
....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it). Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.

Whats the score with Haldex, is it not regarded as any good? I had 4WD in my S4 and found that fantastic, especially in the wet. Did that have a Haldex or is quattro a totally different thing? Pardon my lack of knowledge  :smiley:


Offline RedRobin

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #61 on: 10 August 2008, 15:49 »
....I'm sure T_T will be along soon to deliver all the glorious detail (and correct my misinformation) but quattro is a true all wheel drive as opposed to Haldex being a device on essentially a FWD with automatic balance to the rear wheels but only when needed or actioned by circumstances.

This is what Wikipedia say : - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex
« Last Edit: 10 August 2008, 15:52 by RedRobin »
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NewGolf

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #62 on: 10 August 2008, 15:55 »
Thanks Red,
I wondered about the R32's 4wd system, as watching it driven by the Stig on his TopGear lap, it wheelspan the front wheels then bedded down and got going. Even dumping the clutch on the S4 at high revs never span the front wheels, the car just seemed to "squat down" and launch off. It was almost the same in the wet with ESP turned off, scared many a BMW driver I can tell you...  :wink:

Offline R32UK

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #63 on: 10 August 2008, 16:09 »
the wheels spin is very very minimal. Anything up to 50% (I was pretty sure it was 80% but im not gonna argue with what TT wrote in another thread) of the power can be sent to the rears within a split second. I find this better than simple 4wd as you still get the joys of FWD everyday driving without the understeer.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2008, 16:26 by R32UK »

Offline 08micsta

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #64 on: 10 August 2008, 17:33 »
The Audi A4 3.0 litre quattro refuses to spin. Even in the wet.
Oh yes.

And in corners... Yes it can drift  :evil:

Guess who detailed a 2.6 V6 Audi this weekend?.... Oh my for a 1999 model that thing moves. And its auto!

I love Audi!!


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Offline R32UK

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #65 on: 10 August 2008, 17:40 »
The Audi A4 3.0 litre quattro refuses to spin. Even in the wet.
Oh yes.

And in corners... Yes it can drift  :evil:

Guess who detailed a 2.6 V6 Audi this weekend?.... Oh my for a 1999 model that thing moves. And its auto!

I love Audi!!

tru! just cant beat good ol 4 wheel drift!!

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #66 on: 11 August 2008, 11:38 »
I know she looks very young but she's 22 - Old enough and French!!

Young enough to be your grandaughter?  :shocked:  That would be one cool grandchild though!

BTW, do you want her fone number!  :tongue:

....My daughter is only 17, so Alizee isn't young enough to be my grandaughter :grin:

Thanks for the offer but I don't need her phone number - She's already a fwend of mine (on MySpace) :grin:

Here's perhaps a more 'appropriate' Frenchie : -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0 - She'll knock yer sox off!!

She's gorgeous - I feel sorry for her male co-hosts, blatantly flirting - I'd have a permanent semi . . .  :embarassed:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #67 on: 11 August 2008, 11:46 »
....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it).

Correct, when you compare the Haldex with Torsen 4wd systems, the Haldex is quite noticeably inferior, both in straight-line traction, and more importantly, cornering traction.  Furthermore, Haldex systems provide ZERO rear axle engine braking.

Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.

Hmm, a correctly engineered 4wd car should perform in an identical fasion to a front wheel drive.  You'd be a brave person to state that a front wheel drive A4 handles better than any of the quattro A4s, for example.

I agree with the weight penalty issue though, especially on the Haldex versions, where most of the time, it is just non-functioning "dead weight".  Furthermore, on the Golf, the Haldex rear end considerably reduces the boot capacity - which is an important factor if the Golf is your only family car.
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #68 on: 11 August 2008, 12:19 »
....Yes, Haldex aka Helldex isn't all that it's sold to be apparently (says me with very little direct experience of it). Plus, or rather Minus, the fact that 'AWD' will make a car somewhat heavier and probably less nimble - A characteristic we all like in our GTI's. No V6 soundtrack to make up for it either.

Whats the score with Haldex, is it not regarded as any good? I had 4WD in my S4 and found that fantastic, especially in the wet. Did that have a Haldex or is quattro a totally different thing? Pardon my lack of knowledge  :smiley:

To put it simply, for all VAG four wheel drive cars (Audi quattro, Volkswagen 4motion, Å koda 4x4, Seat 4) -  all the transverse mounted engined cars (Golf, Audi A3, Audi TT, Å koda Octavia, Seat whatever junk!) use Haldex, whereas all longitudinally mounted cars use Torsen, such as Audi A4, A5, A6 and A8 ranges, previous generation VW Passats, VW Phaeton, Å koda Superb.

The Torsen system is a permanent "always on" four wheel drive system.  Prior to the latest Torsen diff, first seen in the current RS4, and eventually being incorporated in all Torsen Audis, there is a "default" 50:50 front/rear torque split.  In laymans terms, under normal traction and road conditions, both the front and rear axles receive identical "drive" power.  When road/traction conditions alter, the Torsen can dynamically (and steplessly) apportion torque (or drive) to either the front or rear axle.  This split was initially up to 25:75 to 75:25 (meaning 75% of the drive going to one axle with the remaining 25% to the other).  Later, this 50:50 diff was re-engineered to provide 20:80 to 80:20 on some models.  For the latest Torsen, it is now set up with an asymmetric "default" torque distribution of "40:60" - which means that the front gets 40% driving force and the rear gets 60% under normal operating traction conditions.  The window of operation of this latest diff is set to 0:100 to 80:20, though in practical terms, the front axle would never be reduced to an absolute zero torque distribution.  The Torsen-based system is purely a mechanical system, requiring no electronic control, and NO maintenance.  It works in a complete "fail-safe" operation, and is truely "stepless" in its torque transfer.



For the Haldex system, it works very, very differently.  Firstly, the Haldex is NOT a "centre differential" like a conventional planetary-geared diff, or the Torsen helical-geared diff.  It can NOT "apportion" torque, either "positively" like the Torsen, or negatively like a conventional diff.  The Haldex is quite simply an electronically controlled "lock-up" clutch, and can operate fully "open" (transmitting zero drive), fully locked (transmitting 100% drive), or anywhere in between, just like "slipping" your foot pedal controlled clutch.

Now, on Haldex systems, under normal conditions, the car performs ONLY as a front wheel drive, with the rear axle operating under ZERO drive conditions.  The Haldex will ONLY send drive to the rear axle AFTER the front axle has lost traction.  The Haldex takes information from the roadwheel speed sensors (often incorrectly called ABS sensors), and compares the difference in rotational speed between the front and rear wheels, and then the Haldex controller instructs the Haldex clutch to start to "clamp", thereby sending some drive to the rear axle.  This method of operation is fine for straight line traction, but traction in corners can be quite "un-nervy", with some drivers being able to sense the "off-on-off-on" application of the Haldex unit.  Naturally, if this happens in a long sweeping corner, under hard acceleration with inconsistent traction, then it can make the handling of the car very "twitchy" indeed.  :sick:  Another significant disadvantage to Haldex systems, should any of the ABS/wheel speed sensors fail, then the Haldex wont work!
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Excuses to buy a MKVI
« Reply #69 on: 11 August 2008, 12:26 »
Thanks Red,
I wondered about the R32's 4wd system, as watching it driven by the Stig on his TopGear lap, it wheelspan the front wheels then bedded down and got going. Even dumping the clutch on the S4 at high revs never span the front wheels, the car just seemed to "squat down" and launch off. It was almost the same in the wet with ESP turned off, scared many a BMW driver I can tell you...  :wink:

Yup, I've also scared many BMW owners too, including M3 drivers.  Oh, I had much fun with my previous S4 on a track day, accelerating hard in my so called "lard barge" by said M3 owners, at full bore, around the outside of them, whilst they were fighting the rear end, and even doing 360s.

Said lard barge -
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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I feel like a homo