GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: RAIDEN on 04 January 2018, 11:29
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Hi not been on here for a good while.
I might change my car later on in the year and i'm just wondering if the R is worth that bit extra. I have a S3 8 P at the moment and I know the GTI is slightly slower and i'm not sure if this would bother me or not over time or if I would notice it much? I know the GTI and R share a lot other than the one of them being AWD. If i'm honest I don't drive as hard as I used to and I mainly do motorway miles but I just have it in my head that I might regret not stretching my budget to a R. Again doing a lot of miles ill want a DSG box and watching videos on the GTI the PP seems worth the money but ill being going for a used one pre facelift. Any thoughts? The wife says go big or go home
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You might miss the traction going for the gti rather than the r as your coming from an s3
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I think you may have answered your own question, I would say if you are looking at MPG and on a pre-facelift budget, it has to be a GTI PP. I would personally go for an R but then I only do around 6/7k miles a year. I'm sure there must be some nice DSG Rs for sub £20K. Depends if you are p/x or not also.
Sounds like a nice specced DSG PP is your bet.
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With all the cheap finance deals for the Golf R coming to an end, it may have a similar second-hand price.
Here is a comparison of the performance of the 3 cars - http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/6a025f7erf5g
(http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/6a025f7erf5g)
The Golf R was one of the cars I looked at before I ordered my GTI. I made a pros and cons list. In the end this swung it for me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqE5iKI2M9A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqE5iKI2M9A) :cool: :grin:
I read several reviews that suggest the standard R suspension is more comfortable than the GTI. Though I suspect it may have something to do with the standard fit tyres being better on the R. A couple of other reviews say that the GTI is better as a daily driver as it is lighter and has less turbo lag. I suggest you have some test drives.
From reading the forums, there were a few problems with some Golf Rs. Turbochargers, haldex clutches and manual clutch slip.
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I've had a MK7 GTI and now an R. The suspension/ride is absolutely definitely more compliant in the R. And my GTI was on 18's - the R is on 19's. I'm not sure if its a springs/damping issue or (more likely imo) the extra weight / weight distribution that makes the R feel like the more composed car on the bumps.
@OP if its mainly motorway driving you do, then there's really not much between a GTI PP and an R. Its on the backroads where the significant extra grip in the R comes into its own. Or even around town, coming off slippy roundabouts, etc, the grip and traction is on another level, so in those circumstances you might miss what you have in the S3.
Running costs barring fuel are much the same. I used to average 33-34-ish in the GTI but it's around 26-28 in the R. But with a lot of relaxed motorway cruising you'd approach mid 30's in the R and near 40 in a GTI.
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I think nearer the time i'll have to try them both. The S3 I love but I brought a 3 door and I should of listened to the wife and got a 4 (2 kids we cart about which ain't even ours :whistle:)
I do about 14k a year but i'm not buying a diesel. Just need something quick,comfortable and practical. Not going on the track at all but if the R's will start coming down I might just wait. Also the GTI does it come with satnav as standard?
Had an R32 before and as good as it was not a good idea to buy for the miles I do
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At 14k I wouldn't bother with an oil burner either.
SatNav wasn't standard for a while and there are a few different sorts that you could get.
I'd definitely try to make sure its got AppConnect (Android auto or Apple CarPlay) enabled though....
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With all the cheap finance deals for the Golf R coming to an end, it may have a similar second-hand price.
Here is a comparison of the performance of the 3 cars - http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/6a025f7erf5g
(http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/6a025f7erf5g)
The Golf R was one of the cars I looked at before I ordered my GTI. I made a pros and cons list. In the end this swung it for me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqE5iKI2M9A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqE5iKI2M9A) :cool: :grin:
I read several reviews that suggest the standard R suspension is more comfortable than the GTI. Though I suspect it may have something to do with the standard fit tyres being better on the R. A couple of other reviews say that the GTI is better as a daily driver as it is lighter and has less turbo lag. I suggest you have some test drives.
From reading the forums, there were a few problems with some Golf Rs. Turbochargers, haldex clutches and manual clutch slip.
Standard R suspension feels nicer due to the car being heavier. Same standard fit tyre on an R that's on a GTi which is Bridgestone and the only reason clutches were slipping was they were either remapped or had a tuning box on them. I test drove an R and a GTi pp back to back and while I loved the R the GTi pp made more financial sense for me.
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The R's manual clutch is a known weak point. If you're the type that's ever likely to remap then DSG is very advisable.
Personally, for me, DSG is very advisable regardless. It totally makes the car.
All R's where I am come on 19's as standard and the tyres fitted from factory on the 19's tend to be either Continentals or Pirelli P-Zeros. The 19's on the R have a slightly different tyre size too to those on a GTI. Very slightly higher sidewall - probably due to the extra weight, which would also help explain why an R on 19's rides better than a GTI on 19's.
The standard 18" Cadiz on UK cars are one ugly wheel so I'd be upgrading those if it were me...
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I went from a mk7 GTI Manual to a S3 8v Manual, both had DTUK box installed. Love them both but love the extra traction in the S3.
As my S3 was 3dr and the Mrs was pregnant I sold it and currently have a mk7 GTI with a DSG box.... I am not a fan of it at all. Traction is terrible in any other than perfect conditions. Once you are up and running you are ok and bimbling about the box is decent. Much preferred the manual GTI.
I have a golf r estate on order.... best of both worlds. Plenty of traction, quicker than GTI and the mpg difference will be minimal. Luckily the Mrs like my GTI so she is having that.
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I have owned my GTI PP for just over a year now and I traded a one owner (me) mk1 TT 3.2 man. in for it. I wish now I had bought an S3 Sportback. Don't get me wrong the GTI is a very good car and I am very pleased with it. But, it's not an Audi. I have owned and still own VW's for well over 40 years, but I miss the Audi. Every time I see an S3 I wish I had bought one.
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GTI traction vastly improved with Michelin tyres, I'm amazed over the improvement on the Pirellis. Just a thought.
As to the OP's question, I'd say go with what you really want as both will be a massive pile of cash. The best value for money will be the one you won't regret :smiley:
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Traction is terrible in any other than perfect conditions.
I don't understand that either. And the conditions are terrible at the moment. Though I do have new Michelin PS4 tyres as well. Also, the VAQ limited slip diff probably helps.
Even Chinese ditch finder tyres would give good traction on a Golf R.
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My manual GTI did have PS4’s on eventually and yes it did improve it. Found the manual far easier to drive from standing.
My current GTI dsg has Bridgestones on it... that combined with the gearbox just isn’t for me. Plus I came from a modified S3 which was fantastic at getting the power down.
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I have owned my GTI PP for just over a year now and I traded a one owner (me) mk1 TT 3.2 man. in for it. I wish now I had bought an S3 Sportback. Don't get me wrong the GTI is a very good car and I am very pleased with it. But, it's not an Audi. I have owned and still own VW's for well over 40 years, but I miss the Audi. Every time I see an S3 I wish I had bought one.
I see an S3 nearly every day in the village and so so glad I bought the facelift R. Then I do have an issue with Audi's and their owners, that treatment has never resolved :wink: Please do try a facelift R before you jump ship.
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If your jumping from an s3 I would go golf r. You will miss the power and grip in a gti and regret it. Different league of car espically on our greasy roads.
Test drives are the thing you need to do
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I was thinking I could save a few quid and go with the GTI PP. Few videos I watched the R just seemed a bit quicker and better on the track with the AWD. I rarely get time now to put my foot to the floor but I am very used to the grip on the S3 when I do push it. My wifes California is booked in for a service next weekend so i've asked if they have both there for me to check out.
But with the grip and ride issue I defo think tyres make all the difference. Years ago I had cheap tyres on my R32 and one day it was wet and giving it plenty and of coarse I lost it. Changed to a set of Pilot sport 3 and it was so much better, Never made that mistake again
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But with the grip and ride issue I defo think tyres make all the difference. Years ago I had cheap tyres on my R32 and one day it was wet and giving it plenty and of coarse I lost it. Changed to a set of Pilot sport 3 and it was so much better, Never made that mistake again
... so, as you discovered yourself - grip comes from your tyres and NOT your drive system.
When I had the GTD with OEM Bridgestone tyres I though the car was poor in bad weather. It would easily spin the tyres, understeer on roundabouts and flash the ABS light when braking. When the front tyres were done I replaced all 4 with Goodyear Eagle AS2s. It was like driving a different car.
This time round I upgrade the tyres on my brand new car straight away.
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With the snow we had I learned a new lesson. I'm running Eagle F1 asymmetric 3's at the moment and went out to get my niece who got stuck in it and then of course I got stuck. The Audi boys have told buy a set of michelin all weather tyres next time. Absolute crap in the snow but I thought I would get away with it
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With the snow we had I learned a new lesson. I'm running Eagle F1 asymmetric 3's at the moment and went out to get my niece who got stuck in it and then of course I got stuck. The Audi boys have told buy a set of michelin all weather tyres next time. Absolute crap in the snow but I thought I would get away with it
I vaguely remember some discussion on that recently :whistle:
Here is what VW have to say on their website -
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/need-help/owners/winter-tyres-4motion (http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/need-help/owners/winter-tyres-4motion)
"Do I need winter tyres if my car has 4 Motion?
Volkswagen's 4 Motion definitely offers an advantage delivering drive to the road, although it's a mistake to think that 4 Motion means you don't need winter tyres. When they're fitted, winter tyres increase the 4 Motion advantage significantly and will make sure you get the best results out of your 4 Motion system. 4 Motion doesn't do much for steering and braking. Fitting winter tyres provides better drive, steering and braking."
We live in the northern half of the UK. There are usually a few weeks of snow and ice every year. Some years more. We were going to buy an A3 with Quattro for my wife. After reading many articles and watching many videos, we bought a FWD A3 and fit winter tyres every Autumn.
There are a lot of myths about 4WD. Google search - 4WD myths.
Our FWD A3 accelerates really well on snow AND ice. More importantly it stops really well in those conditions too, because the tyres have plenty of grip.
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Depends, where you live obviously. Yes we get the occasional flurries here in Cirencester, the pre-Christmas snow was the worst here in several years, just one day I didn't/wouldn't go out. Remember it's the other planks out there as well as you, regardless of you being nice and safe on snow tyres.
AWD enabled me to get in and out of my driveway something my FWD couldn't manage as well as my neighbours RWD Merc SLK!
So back to basics, what level of snowfall and how often your area gets it, dictates the expenditure and storage!
Especially if you have AWD which as stated is far better than 2WD in poor/any conditions (if it's a Golf that is)
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Depends, where you live obviously. Yes we get the occasional flurries here in Cirencester, the pre-Christmas snow was the worst here in several years, just one day I didn't/wouldn't go out. Remember it's the other planks out there as well as you, regardless of you being nice and safe on snow tyres.
That does concern me. Though the grip from winter tyres increases safety margins significantly.
AWD enabled me to get in and out of my driveway something my FWD couldn't manage as well as my neighbours RWD Merc SLK!
Obviously having 4 driven wheels is an advantage when grip is limited.
So back to basics, what level of snowfall and how often your area gets it, dictates the expenditure and storage!
Especially if you have AWD which as stated is far better than 2WD in poor/any conditions (if it's a Golf that is)
Better at accelerating, I agree. However, little better at cornering and no better at stopping.
Having a car that can accelerate well is not safe if it cannot stop!
On snow and ice - a 4WD car will help get you up a hill, but having 4 driven wheels WILL NOT help going back down the hill. Going back down the hill the grip of your tyres is the most important factor.
Anyway, back on topic...
If you are trying to save money, I doubt if the purchase price of the 2 cars second-hand would be much different. The running costs are not significantly different either. Obviously fuel economy depends on journey type and driving style. However, for most drivers the difference always seems to be just around 5 mpg. Most people recommend running the Golf R on super unleaded. Some have said the GTI is less fuel fussy as the engine is not as highly tuned. The Golf R has higher road tax too, but probably less than you are currently paying on the older S3.
The GTI has a sportier style than the more reserved styling of the Golf R.
I know the Mk7 GTI is not in the same performance league as the Mk7 Golf R. But it isn't exactly slow and given the power-to-weight ratio it should be able to keep up with the older S3.
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
6 months and still takes my breath away, not driven a PP but my ladies MK7 GTI which I thought sprightly is in the championship the R in the Prem and frightens some very expensive sports cars. I said it last May this car is a steal for what and how it delivers. You just want an excuse to drive it, most enjoyment since my Lotus 7 S3 . Relative to my age then and now :whistle:
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
I feel Mcmaddy is right here. The R is faster but not by such a great margin if you look past 0-x times which are heavily influenced by traction. During my test-drive on the high-way, in accelerations above 50mph I didn't exactly lose my breath in the R and I don't think anyone in performance cars would, I felt as if it needed every last of its 300bhp indeed. Another way to look at it is how a bone-stock GTI with the simplest and lightest form of tuning, a JB1 box or similar with the minimum gains possible, beats a stock R in (real-world) pulls. This should not be happening if the difference between them was indeed "a lot" as it is between say a GTI and an M3/4 or similar, at least in my book.
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
Yes I've driven an R thanks of else I wouldn't be commenting. In real world driving you can't notice the difference but someone's real world driving could be different to another's.
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I can’t make a comparison between a 7R and a GTI PP having not driven the latter, but will say that coming from a few DSG GTI’s (s and 6) into a DSG R, I won’t be going back to a GTI any time soon. The level of grip is something else, and on very good tyres it’s simply outstanding. Surefooted as a mountain goat. GTI’s were a more ‘fun’ drive, R (with pedal box) is more ‘exhilarating’. It sounds to me, from what the OP has said about his driving style etc, that the GTI PP would suit him well.
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This discussion will continue for years to come. I fully agree with the last few posts. In driving situations where traction is limited then for sure the R is faster. If you are using the full rev range then the R is faster even with the additional weight due to significantly higher top end power but how often can you use the full rev range in day to day driving. Going back to the 'real world' reference where torque is king then the R's torque advantage is minimal and virtually zero when the extra weigh is taken into account so the cars are very similar in the rev range 2 to 5 K RPM where we spend most of the time but of course if you are constantly chasing the redline the R is quicker.
And yes I have driven an R. Also driven the RS3 last year and both left me a little cold - for sure they are both excellent cars dynamically, they are fast, sure footed and stable but not fun in my view.
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
Yes I've driven an R thanks of else I wouldn't be commenting. In real world driving you can't notice the difference but someone's real world driving could be different to another's.
Ah come on now... in real world driving?! There's a gulf of a difference between the 2 cars and I've owned both (I'm not relying on a 5 minute test drive here!). Real world driving in this part of the world involves a lot of greasy wet roads for about 300 days of the year, a lot with crap surfaces. The R will leave a GTI for dead in those conditions. Even around towns/cities, getting traction off wet roundabouts / junctions. It just feels a far more assured car. There's no point having 230+ BHP if it cannot get the power down unless conditions are perfect. This is my real world experience.
Then there's the ride/comfort differences, the way the R handles the bumps better which I already described earlier in this thread.
If your real world involves tootling along at the legal limit on the motorway, then yes, fair enough, there's not much in it. But then you may as well be in a diesel bluemotion.
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Love this debate.... ‘real world’ driving on our roads the R is king. More power and more traction which help with our rubbish weather and roads.
Hate my GTI DSG having come from an S3 and got an R on order. I did love my manual GTI I had prior to S3 but it changed my mind. You are all kidding yourself if you think there is little in it, in real world there is a significant difference in my opinion.
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Only natural that R owners will say the gulf in performance is far greater than it actually is.
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It's only natural that the GTI owners will argue that the gulf is a lot smaller than it actually is. :wink:
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
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Ha ha love how people get so defensive about their car choice.
The point on which one is faster is an easy one.... the r in every department.
Which one is better is down to the individual. Loved my manual GTI.... hate my dsg GTI. People will say the dsg is great in the GTI, in my opinion it’s not. Doesn’t make me right or wrong, just what I think.
Different to something based on actual facts and figures. Those that say it’s close are wrong.
You could argue that those that say it’s close are just trying to convince themselves the made the right choice with a GTI over an R :laugh:
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Very little difference between a GTi and R in performance in real world driving and they are both limited to 155mph. As said the extra weight of the R somewhat negates the extra power. The R will have better traction off the line.
If your talking about cruising at 70mph on the motorway then yes. But anything else the R is a LOT faster. Even pulling away from roundabouts at 30mph let alone going for a blast down your local A road. Have you driven an R!?
Yes I've driven an R thanks of else I wouldn't be commenting. In real world driving you can't notice the difference but someone's real world driving could be different to another's.
Real world driving in this part of the world involves a lot of greasy wet roads for about 300 days of the year, a lot with crap surfaces.
300 days a year Joe, Christ the weather has got better in the West of Ireland then, I suppose that's global warming for you. :whistle:
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
I don’t think “most R owners” care an iota which car you prefer or bought. You made a personal decision and good luck to you. For what it’s worth I am a big fan of the GTI, I owned a MK7 myself and a MK5 (loved that car especially).
However, to suggest that the R and GTI are “close” in terms of out and out performance is just plain wrong and even misleading to someone who’s looking for honest real world experience.
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
As i've been told before, this is a GTI forum. First and foremost. I didn't start this thread, but seeing it I thought I was worthy of some input. I have owned with my partner 6 of the 7 Marks of GTI. And an R since May, we still have a MK7 GTI.
My comments are based on all of that experience. When I was running a Mk 6 GTI i craved an R but could not justify it at that time. Now I can. Cost of purchase running costs, fuel, servicing, insurance is higher and generally there's the rub.
Yes the R is in fact more subtle visually than a GTI but only marginally, why not buy an R rebadge GTI add bits of red here and there, hey presto the ultimate GTIR. Only joking, :wink: no snobbery here I can assure you.
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I suspect most other GTIs are faster than me in the real world in my PP let alone an R :laugh:
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I went from years of gti ownership to an S3. Very different cars. For me there is a noticeable difference in both acceleration and how they do it.
However, I would buy a gti because it’s a gti. First world problems eh! :whistle:
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
I think that’s a totally crap argument. I think you’ll find a good proportion if not all, of the R owners on this forum have been GTI owners and are still huge fans of the GTI, but...dare I say it, some of them prefer the R because there is a difference. Nobody is saying getting a GTI is a “wrong” choice. Choice is the luxury we’ve all are fortunate to have.
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
I think that’s a totally crap argument. I think you’ll find a good proportion if not all, of the R owners on this forum have been GTI owners and are still huge fans of the GTI, but...dare I say it, some of them prefer the R because there is a difference. Nobody is saying getting a GTI is a “wrong” choice. Choice is the luxury we’ve all are fortunate to have.
If you trawl through all the crap written about the GTI or R debate, you'll see I'm right ( for a change ).
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
I think that’s a totally crap argument. I think you’ll find a good proportion if not all, of the R owners on this forum have been GTI owners and are still huge fans of the GTI, but...dare I say it, some of them prefer the R because there is a difference. Nobody is saying getting a GTI is a “wrong” choice. Choice is the luxury we’ve all are fortunate to have.
If you trawl through all the crap written about the GTI or R debate, you'll see I'm right ( for a change ).
Right, how?
I personally don’t think there are that many on here who struggle to believe that someone would choose a GTI over an R, especially, as said, many who are former GTI owners themselves. So maybe don’t tar everyone with the same brush.
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This endless GTI or R argument pisses me right off!
The problem is that most R owners simply cannot believe that there are people out there who simply want a Golf GTI because it IS a Golf GTI.
Most GTI owners could probably have afforded the extra to get the R but they just didn't want one. I'm one of those people, and no amount of performance figures being quoted will convince me that I made the wrong choice :rolleyes:
I think that’s a totally crap argument. I think you’ll find a good proportion if not all, of the R owners on this forum have been GTI owners and are still huge fans of the GTI, but...dare I say it, some of them prefer the R because there is a difference. Nobody is saying getting a GTI is a “wrong” choice. Choice is the luxury we’ve all are fortunate to have.
If you trawl through all the crap written about the GTI or R debate, you'll see I'm right ( for a change ).
Right, how?
I personally don’t think there are that many on here who struggle to believe that someone would choose a GTI over an R, especially, as said, many who are former GTI owners themselves. So maybe don’t tar everyone with the same brush.
+1.
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For someone who went shopping for a Mk7 performance Golf in 2014 and yes there were some fantastic PCP deals on the R, I felt for UK roads the PP Golf i chose did everything I wanted.
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I wanted a fast estate.... The GTD isn't fast so it had to be the R. I've never driven one. Hope I like it when it arrives :laugh:
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If VW hadn’t created the R I would buy the next best thing to it they made. Not a Ford,Merc,BMW or Audi. I would for sure have bought a Clubsport, which is not only exclusive around these parts anyway but also the best package and looking GTI to date.
I came close to doing that before they announced the facelift R.
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To an outsider landing in this thread they'd think that nearly all R owners have a superiority complex and GTI owners had an inferiority complex going by some of the posts.
Hence I've resisted posting in here up until now and very nearly didn't but I had either an angel or a devil sat on my shoulder prodding me (I'll reserve judgment as to which).
My own experience will be pretty useless to the OP anyway as I'm a dyed in the wool manual driver (purely for reasons of vehicle control and driving style), and I'm sure nobody will give a toss what I think anyway.
For those that have teleported here recently or haven't been paying attention, I had a long history of modified previous generation GTIs, a handful of quick TDIs and some other reasonably warm hatchback offerings over the last 30 years of driving.
I spent 19 months at the wheel of a GTI PP before buying an R and spent a further 18 months with that. Both were modified after a while of acclimatising to them, neither really needed it aside from a pedal box.
Just to add some further irrelevant experience to it I had a GTD for a month or two and have had an Edition 40 for about 8 months now.
All manuals.
I don't want a gearbox that decides when I lift off the throttle it's going to pre-engage a higher gear with clutch 2 when in fact I'm doing a cat like pause waiting for a gap I'm anticipating or a change of traffic light ahead so I can snick down two gears in a block change and smoothly hit warp drive. And at the other extreme if I get into a skid unexpectedly (ice on a blind bend or oil on the road or just a good ol' aquaplane) I like to be able to dip the clutch extremely quickly to assist regaining control. It's just a driving style thing.
I know most people these days think the world ends about two metres in front of their bonnet and their impatient driving styles reflect this in see a gap, fill it and worry about whether it was safe to do so afterwards, but I'm not most people.
So my opinion is pretty irrelevant to everyone really as I drive the worst of both worlds going by this thread. I have an under-tuned Golf R engine in an inferior GTI chassis which just means I sit there on the edge of my drive frantically spinning my front wheels and going nowhere...
That probably explains my very low mileage. :laugh:
So, the GTI, great car. Much underrated since the introduction of the R and still the best middle of the road hot hatch blend like it always has been. I think VW engineers have always had a soft spot for the GTI, it's their little historic victory over the management from many generations ago. Maybe that's just my rose tinted specs though but from press releases and previous statements from VW engineers you do know they have a soft spot for the GTI model (or brand in modern terminology) and won't dilute it with estate cars or SUVs.
The GTI is the laid back hot hatch. I've always been a fan of the smaller quicker spinning turbo of the GTI which when treated to a stage 1 tune gives all the performance you could need on the road and the power just comes in effortlessly at very low revs.
The VAQ diff is an amazing bit of kit. It's incredibly subtle but I've driven stretches of road back to back with a mk7 GTI my friend had as a company car and my own PP GTI and although the MQB GTI corners with very little understeer the VAQ equipped car can actually be driven round the corner with power applied in a way that even an R doesn't like as it actually tightens the cornering line rather than understeering. That ladies and gentlemen is grip which is not to be confused with traction.
The brakes on a PP GTI are also very good so long as you don't expect trackway like performance from them. For British road speeds rather than sustained high speed use they're actually pretty effective and inspire more confidence than the smaller rotors on the standard GTI.
Jumping out of the GTI into the R the first thing I noticed was the engine's character was very different. The R engine was much more peppy. The old puppy on a leash analogy might be a bit overused and in fact I can think of more responsive cars I've driven but side by side that's the initial difference I found.
Show the R a stretch of open road and the engine just wants to go. Below 3000rpm the GTI was more responsive and if you don't get the revs right in an R there does feel like there's a hole in the torque curve at lowish RPM's which you might not get with a DSG(?) but as soon as the R's turbo comes on song (and it's not laggy like the old K04 turbo'd Rs) it just wants to zip round to the red line.
The engines are remarkably similar in some aspects but VW have given them different characters.
The smaller turbo'd GTI is in a much more relaxed state of tune, it happily runs on 95RON and is loads better on fuel. Irrelevant if your employer throws cash your way towards your fuel bill but definitely real world relevant for those of us who don't have silver spoons in our gobs. The mk7 GTI I had was the most fuel efficient version of any Golf GTI I've owned and I've owned at least one version of every single series of GTI from 1.6 MK1 GTI to 1.8 MK1 GTI right through to every version of mk7 Performance Golf (the only exception being the mk3 Golfs I owned were VR6s and the equivalent GTI's I had were the lighter and better handling Ibiza GTI's of that era).
The main reason it's so good on fuel is the state of tune and the very significant torque at low RPM's meaning gear changing is hardly ever necessary unless in heavy traffic. It has TDI torque coupled with petrol flexibility and good gearing.
The GTI is a very nice car to own and drive.
The only downside to me was the fairly flat power delivery and the suspension which jarred very badly on sudden ruts or surface changes. I'd occasionally get an almighty crash go through the car where there was a sudden change of tarmac grade on an open road at speed. The R had much better suspension settings to deal with that and rode really well on 19's without DCC.
Does the R have more grip? That depends on how you define grip but I'd say a resolute no. It has better traction and that instils over confidence in some drivers. I've been on track and had 4wd VW's and Audis spin in front of me. Tyres grip and all wheel drive aids traction. If you have decent tyres and 4wd then you're on a winner! But the VAQ does a really good job of torque distribution aiding grip and traction so long as there is steering angle applied.
The R is a much quicker point to point car on the right roads. The R will easily out drag a GTI from standstill if boy racing is your thing, especially if you have a PlayStation gearbox and have got the launch control settings down to a fine art. Hell, I used to find Audi Diesels would smoke me off the line in my manual R if I wasn't in the mood to use all the revs.
And there's the crux.
If you don't use high revs a lot then you'll never get the full performance benefit of the R.
It's still a very nice car to drive, still relatively quick and even relatively frugal if you never use more than 4000rpm. But that's not playing to the car's strengths.
I live in the West Country of England which is well known for people leaning on their pitchforks wearing smocks and chewing on a raw carrot whilst standing at a five bar gate watching the world crawl by.
I was having a random conversation with a chap moving down from Liverpool a few days ago. He was moving down to be near their daughter who lives down this way. The one thing he and his wife found a bit of a shock was the roads down this way which are, in his words "Your A roads are like the country lanes where we come from, they're very narrow and are all up and down with poor visibility, we'd class an A road as long and wide or more likely a dual carriageway." So you can imagine what our B roads are like...
An R on those roads is no quicker than a GTI PP in most conditions.
You just don't have time to wind the engine up to 7000rpm as you need to be setting yourself up for the next corner by then.
4WD won't give you any better grip than the VAQ would and in fact with its lack of understeer the VAQ diff, the better turning circle and a quicker spinning turbo could actually be a benefit. Certainly the 340mm brakes are called into good use!
The GTI chassis is a little more lively, the R more surefooted, neither will kill you unless you do something really stupid...
That's a reason I like tuned TDI engines, on the roads I drive it's better to have peak power at a useable 4000rpm than a lofty 7000rpm which you frequently don't have time to reach before you have to adjust speed.
Lets face it, the R is the range topper and therefore the best Golf, but some of its virtues you might never really experience if your driving style is very laid back or the roads you travel on wouldn't reflect the amazing cross country capabilities of the R.
The R is also a really good motorway car, the ride over expansion joints doesn't jar and the damping is spot on plus the engine is right in its sweet spot. Squeeze the accelerator at 80 and the thing just shoots off. Not that I'd recommend that unless you know 100% that your rear view doesn't contain an unmarked traffic car. :whistle:
If you're the sort of person who has to go into the outside lane of every 'merge in turn' two lanes into one traffic lights whether you can see whether the road ahead is clear or not then a DSG R is essential. If a motorway on ramp is seen as a rocket ship launch pad then a DSG R is for you. If every straight stretch of road means you have to overtake someone then you're an R person.
A GTI is the perfect all rounder in its blend of abilities versus running costs and its respectable image.
The R just does the performance thing that much better. If you use it to its full advantage. Not everyone does, for some it's just the image of having the range topper or the smugness of Evo's road test reviews being on your side.
Those that are going to use the performance though, there is a significant difference at 8/10 and above driving.
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Great post Exonian, I was hoping you'd show up :smiley:
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+1 to that, and some considerable endurance displayed :laugh:
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Great post Exonian, I was hoping you'd show up :smiley:
+1 to a great post. Always enjoy reading your musings.
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Exonian, that made a lot of sense. And it’s from ownership of the cars which we all know is very different to a test drive.
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+1 to that, and some considerable endurance displayed :laugh:
+2 to that.
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That’s what makes me check this forum every day...... more than once!
Thanks mate.
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That’s what makes me check this forum every day...... more than once!
Thanks mate.
I wonder if Exonian or any others have experienced the latest R with it’s sublime almost linear 7 Speed DSG. I also find it very odd that this chap whom is held in such regard doesn’t look to overtake come any straight yet tunes an R and insists and on manual gearboxes. Which are usually regarded for that purpose as in track driving and being in total control.
Not that there are some points in his script that brush with the facts. His leeengthy piece is his opinion at this point in his life.
Just bringing some balance, at my age and with a background of 50 years driving manual/Auto I think the DSG box one of the greatest automotive advancements. Everyone one will want one even Ex eventually.
Manuals are for 2 seater dropheads, like my Elan and Lotus 7 back in the 70s IMO of course, then I am getting on a bit.
BTW All Golfs are great.
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I wonder if Exonian or any others have experienced the latest R with it’s sublime almost linear 7 Speed DSG. I also find it very odd that this chap whom is held in such regard doesn’t look to overtake come any straight yet tunes an R and insists and on manual gearboxes. Which are usually regarded for that purpose as in track driving and being in total control.
Not that there are some points in his script that brush with the facts. His leeengthy piece is his opinion at this point in his life.
Just bringing some balance, at my age and with a background of 50 years driving manual/Auto I think the DSG box one of the greatest automotive advancements. Everyone one will want one even Ex eventually.
Manuals are for 2 seater dropheads, like my Elan and Lotus 7 back in the 70s IMO of course, then I am getting on a bit.
BTW All Golfs are great.
Having extra power does not mean you are enforced to use it at every occasion (I went through my last 2 fuel tanks probably never surpassing 4K rpm in my tuned car) and as for "better control" it is in no way related with driving like a t**t all the time, I wonder how you created that relation to be honest.
Despite being a DSG fan, I have to admit there are moments (although rare) that a manual would have served me better, on the road and on the track. I chose the DSG (and will probably choose it again) for its superior performance for most of the time. This does not mean it's perfect though. I doubt the new DSG7 with all its "sublime-ness" is any different on that matter. It will still up-shift on its own near the limiter and it will still suffer from the typical DSG WTF moments with the right "speed-gear-throttle" combo esp. when driven in Manual.
By the way, great write-up from Exonian. The parts where he speaks about traction, grip, and some other technical facts and characteristics between the two cars, (any cars that share these or similar underpinnings) should be pinned at the start of every VAG car forum, for both certain owners' safety and the unpleasant process of re-explaining the basics every now and then.
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Thanks very much for the positive comments. I’m humbled. I really wasn’t expecting any especially as I threw in a load of tongue in cheek quips at all the models, and DSG gearboxes. :whistle:
And thanks CHB for bringing the expected backlash. Someone had to be first.
I also had an earlier PM saying I was being anti DSG R.
As I said in my opening, my experiences are probably irrelevant to most people and just my own opinions with a lot of tongue in cheek comments thrown in to liven up a potentially dull post.
I was taken to task about being negative about those getting a fuel allowance. That’s not correct. Maybe I came across wrong. I was just stating my opinion that if someone is paying for your fuel you won’t necessarily have the same attitude as a private motorist on a tight budget. Everyone’s circumstances are different and some will happily trade extra cost for extra performance (myself included). It’s a simple fact of science that to get 300 PS out of a 2.0 engine it’s going to take more fuel than getting 230 PS. Those that want a trade off between running costs and a still perfectly good handling and decently quick, very well equipped car have the option of a GTI.
To CHB:
I’m not anti DSG.
I enjoy the control a manual gearbox gives me and I don’t give a toss about a few seconds here and there. I don’t race super cars on the public roads.
7 gears are ridiculously excessive for a high torque engine in a country with a 70mph speed limit.
I don’t overtake cars randomly unless they’re dawdling or driving erratically. Chances are you overtake one car doing 58 mph on a NSL 60 stretch and a quarter of a mile later you’ll be on your brakes slowing for another 58 mph car. I save my motoring kicks for late at night and very early in the morning when everyone else is in bed (shift worker) and choose to just run with the herd to save stress, wear and tear and fuel during the heavy traffic hours. Yeah, I’m getting old.
Why did I modify my R? Because I felt it lacked a bit of mid range torque. Once modified I rarely took it over 4000 rpm as beyond that it was generally in licence losing territory. How much power and how many gears do you really need in the UK?
I have always tuned my turbo cars (current one excepted) to give me more mid range torque for a smoother and more flexible drive so I can cover ground without resorting to a full on aerobic excercise with the controls.
I’d say the opposite. DSG for track where you’re in PlayStation mode wanting nanosecond gear changes going sequentially up and down the box one gear at a time, and manual for a road car that doesn’t sit in traffic jams all day long. Manual allows block changes for smooth progress and clutch dumps to get you out of unexpected trouble. I’d rather rely on myself and not just electronic nanny systems. A mixture of both is lovely!
If anyone wants to sponsor me to use a DSG for a fortnight I’ll happily use it, immerse myself in it, write up a full report and put my money where my mouth is next time I buy a car.
Convert me to DSG if it’s really that good and I’ll happily shell out another £1400 next time I change my car.
:tongue:
One last point from a long paragraph I deleted from my post during editing.
When I sold my GTI PP I didn’t particularly miss it when I switched to the R.
When I sold the R I immediately regretted it hugely. That car really got under my skin and I didn’t realise it until it was gone.
I think that’ll do from me in this thread.
Thanks again for all the feedback, positive comments and arse kickings. :smiley:
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Just to add fuel to CHBs fire, I had a dsg box previously and won't be in a hurry to get another one. It was lazy changing down gears and generally always in the wrong gear at open junctions and open roundabouts.
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I also had an earlier PM saying I was being anti DSG R.
Seriously? Someone got upset because your preferences are different to theirs?
I'm assuming they were upset as whatever they had to say, they didn't want anyone else to know and possibly come across on the forum as a tw@
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Whilst the DSG vs Manual is a little bit off topic (from the OP's post), it does quite surprise me how protective each camp gets. As with everything in life there are pro's and con's to everything and each one of us is different. Personally, I love my DSG box. Sure it's only a lowly GTD, so not in the same league as an R or a GTI PP, but for my circumstances, at my time of life, it makes sense for me.
I'm getting old (mid fifties), had manual cars all my life (and still drive manuals as all our work's pool cars are manuals), but was converted to DSG 3 car's ago with my Scirocco. Where I live in the NW of England, the motorways are always stuffed, and my commute to work is always start / stop with town center traffic lights, queuing traffic etc. For me at my time of life, a DSG car is just a much more relaxed and less stressful way to travel, coupled with the narrow torque and power curve of the diesel engine, it suits the GTD engine perhaps much better than it's bigger petrol engined brothers.
Looking at the description Exonian used, he lives in a beautiful part of the country, and maybe his roads and journeys better suit him having a manual box. In any case it's his decision and his money so what's it got to do with anyone else anyway ? We are all different and having choice is good, and to say that one type of gearbox technology is better than another is meaningless unless you take the drivers circumstances, journeys, road types etc also into consideration.
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I’d say the opposite. DSG for track where you’re in PlayStation mode wanting nanosecond gear changes going sequentially up and down the box one gear at a time, and manual for a road car that doesn’t sit in traffic jams all day long.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean DSG is bad on the track, quite contrary: Being able to change gears with both your hands on the steering wheel offers extra confidence and focus on your lines, and as for shift times they are practically non-existent compared to manual gear changes. The possible issues lie with learning the track (or favorite fast road) well and planning your driving so you don't end up in those (admittedly rare) situations where the car will up-shift despite the fact you'd like it to stay at the limiter for another 20ft. before actually braking or forgetting to down shift early enough, causing a double shift-down (one from you one from the box).
Again, those are issues which you most likely will come across during your early years of learning how a DSG behaves and very rarely after you will have become familiar with it, but they are there nonetheless.
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I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road :cry:) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased :wink:
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Quite interested in the new 7 speed DSG.Coming from a Diesel (GTD) perspective, I'd have thought the 7 speed would have been more economical that the older 6 speed, due to a tall 7th gear and a better spread of ratios in the 6 gears below that ?
However, looking at the current MK7.5 brochure vs one from 2014 for the MK7, the figures for the 5 door GTD are:
| Gearbox Type | Urban | X-Urban | Combined |
| New 7 Speed DSG | 50.4 | 62.8 | 57.6 |
| Old 6 Speed DSG | 49.6 | 68.9 | 60.1 |
I know these are manufacturers figures and so not achievable, but if the same criteria was used for both, then combined, the new 7 speed is around 5% less economical (which does seem a bit weird) ?
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What you have to factor into that Sooty is that VW changed the figures on the GTD between the Mk7 and Mk7.5... A Mk7.5 GTD is apparently worse MPG and more CO2....
I ranted about this for some time when the 7.5 data first came out...
(Check the manual gearbox equipped GTD data for Mk7 and 7.5 for comparison)
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I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road :cry:) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased :wink:
Lol at the comical effort to present anything about the 7.5R as absolutely flawless (the statements about AWD superiority during cornering and braking on snow/ice are still my favorite though), never ceases to be amusing.
On a serious note, does the absolutely amazing, re-invented, [enter-your-definition-of-awe-inspiring] DQ381 not up-shift automatically near the limiter? (hint: Yes)
Is it not an identical twin clutch system that operates on pre-selecting the next gear by heavily relying on current throttle, gear, speed input (and as such susceptible to mis-calculations and typical DSG hiccups on the rare occasion that the driver input is completely unexpected?)
Clearly the unit is new and in much less quantities currently than the number of previous DQ380 (DSG6) boxes to form a solid conclusion on how it behaves under all conditions but it seems it is maybe not the best thing since sliced bread according to some owners in Australia? Funny he how describes stock map as totally messed up :whistle:
Link from VWROC:
http://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/23422-tvs-engineering-tcu-sw-dq381-facelift-7-speed-dsg/ (http://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/23422-tvs-engineering-tcu-sw-dq381-facelift-7-speed-dsg/)
Disclaimer: I am not member "PocketRocket" at VWROC
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I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road :cry:) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased :wink:
Lol at the comical effort to present anything about the 7.5R as absolutely flawless (the statements about AWD superiority during cornering and braking on snow/ice are still my favorite though), never ceases to be amusing.
That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.
The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.
That OZ description certainly does not equate with my experience at all the total reverse in fact. They still have less horses I believe? So far I have nothing to complain about the package, maybe I'm lucky, it's actually better than I anticipated. As before I would be well happy with the Clubsport if not for the R. I'm afraid I have nothing to whinge about other than the build quality. I maybe would have improved the brakes, but have now bedded in well.
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That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.
Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.
The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.
You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...
PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...
PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.
Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.
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That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.
Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.
The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.
You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...
PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...
PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.
Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.
There were massive benefits the other week on my sloping driveway and pulling away from a standing start on sheet ice outside the post office and at B Tescos carpark. Thats enough for me, my ladies GTI would struggle. As for on the icy road I take the softly approach or don't go out. After 54 years driving including the notorious BMW 2002 TURBO LHD! Which faced the wrong way on damp roads with only 170bhp. Let some air out and use the handbrake not foot that's how we managed to get to work, narrow tyres help immensely also.
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That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.
Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.
The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.
You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...
PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...
PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.
Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.
There were massive benefits the other week on my sloping driveway and pulling away from a standing start on sheet ice outside the post office and at B Tescos carpark. Thats enough for me, my ladies GTI would struggle. As for on the icy road I take the softly approach or don't go out. After 54 years driving including the notorious BMW 2002 TURBO LHD! Which faced the wrong way on damp roads with only 170bhp. Let some air out and use the handbrake not foot that's how we managed to get to work, narrow tyres help immensely also.
You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
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In the UK, especially in southern England the number of days per year which are snowy/icy are likely to be less than 10. On the other hand days when the roads are damp are 100+. Therefore I would value the extra ability the R has in pulling away at roundabouts and junctions in these condition. However you need to weigh this up against higher running costs (mpg). Overall I'm happy with my GTi PP 95% of the time and it's only the other 5% I wish I had an R.
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The R is faster in gear than the GTI. Both great cars
There's a good vid where they test a GTI and an R using a data logger, in gear and 0-60. The R is faster on both counts by a good margin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfxc5Tmj1w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfxc5Tmj1w)
A tuned GTI, a standard CS or even Cupra would take a standard R no doubt. If you tune the R then you've got a real weapon.
Is one better than the other..... it depends what you want. The GTI PP is all the car you would need. If you wanted a little more power then get the R. If you want a fast estate... get the R.
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In the UK, especially in southern England the number of days per year which are snowy/icy are likely to be less than 10. On the other hand days when the roads are damp are 100+. Therefore I would value the extra ability the R has in pulling away at roundabouts and junctions in these condition. However you need to weigh this up against higher running costs (mpg). Overall I'm happy with my GTi PP 95% of the time and it's only the other 5% I wish I had an R.
I suppose it also helps having a 997 weekend toy, my other car for occasional use is a Lupo 1.0 :rolleyes: :laugh:
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You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
You are wasting your breath. Lots of us have tried to explain this simple concept to CHB100. He is NEVER going to understand it. :rolleyes:
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I wonder if the OP is any more enlightened.
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The R is faster in gear than the GTI. Both great cars
There's a good vid where they test a GTI and an R using a data logger, in gear and 0-60. The R is faster on both counts by a good margin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfxc5Tmj1w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfxc5Tmj1w)
A tuned GTI, a standard CS or even Cupra would take a standard R no doubt. If you tune the R then you've got a real weapon.
Is one better than the other..... it depends what you want. The GTI PP is all the car you would need. If you wanted a little more power then get the R. If you want a fast estate... get the R.
Enjoyed that video thanks for posting
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The insurance is due on my GTi PP, I ran the renewal quote for an R that is 2 years younger than my car.
Obviously the value of the R was higher, I was surprised to see the quote only £8 higher for the R with the same driver details as the base for calculation.
I appreciate we all have different profiles, but I was surprised how reasonable the quote for the R is considering the increase in bhp and apparent desirability from thieves.
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Was that 3 door or 5 door though? I believe that 5 door performance cars are a more popular target - I guess its easier to get your mates/other bank robbers in the rear...
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You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
You are wasting your breath. Lots of us have tried to explain this simple concept to CHB100. He is NEVER going to understand it. :rolleyes:
For me being able to have traction on a slippery slope and on the flat to gain momentum is the most IIMPORTANT FACT. While others with 2WD spin 240 horses without progress.
Once on the road I still feel more confident in The knowledge that I’m less likely to get stuck! Albeit similar both may be in gentle driving in icy conditions.
Friend I do have both to try in those conditions so is my true experience and not garnered from hearsay
Also you seem to think I am claiming something I am not to the point of boredom.
Please come and have a test in mine in such conditions in said situations or any come to that.
I won’t bother with rolleyes.
To repeat to OP if you can afford all incurred costs buy an R over anything else.
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Was that 3 door or 5 door though? I believe that 5 door performance cars are a more popular target - I guess its easier to get your mates/other bank robbers in the rear...
Funnily enough I have a 3 door GTi and the random Golf R reg plate I used for the quote was from a 16 plate, 5 door for sale at a dealer online.
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You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
You are wasting your breath. Lots of us have tried to explain this simple concept to CHB100. He is NEVER going to understand it. :rolleyes:
For me being able to have traction on a slippery slope and on the flat to gain momentum is the most IIMPORTANT FACT. While others with 2WD spin 240 horses without progress.
Once on the road I still feel more confident in The knowledge that I’m less likely to get stuck! Albeit similar both may be in gentle driving in icy conditions.
Friend I do have both to try in those conditions so is my true experience and not garnered from hearsay
Also you seem to think I am claiming something I am not to the point of boredom.
Please come and have a test in mine in such conditions in said situations or any come to that.
I won’t bother with rolleyes.
To repeat to OP if you can afford all incurred costs buy an R over anything else.
Surely the most important thing is to have traction to lose momentum, not gain it?
The disadvantages of not gaining momentum are simply time - the disadvantages of not losing momentum could be time, money and lives.
As has been said - you're obviously blinkered in your opinion and not open to others viewpoints so I'll probably leave it there. I'm off to push a double decker bus up a 1 in 4 hill on my own - it's probably easier than having a reasoned discussion with you.
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Just let it lie ladies :rolleyes:
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The insurance is due on my GTi PP, I ran the renewal quote for an R that is 2 years younger than my car.
Obviously the value of the R was higher, I was surprised to see the quote only £8 higher for the R with the same driver details as the base for calculation.
I appreciate we all have different profiles, but I was surprised how reasonable the quote for the R is considering the increase in bhp and apparent desirability from thieves.
I found the same. GTI, GTI PP, R and the S3 were all within about £40 of each other. Leon Cupra 290 was £400+ more!
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You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
You are wasting your breath. Lots of us have tried to explain this simple concept to CHB100. He is NEVER going to understand it. :rolleyes:
For me being able to have traction on a slippery slope and on the flat to gain momentum is the most IIMPORTANT FACT. While others with 2WD spin 240 horses without progress.
Once on the road I still feel more confident in The knowledge that I’m less likely to get stuck! Albeit similar both may be in gentle driving in icy conditions.
Friend I do have both to try in those conditions so is my true experience and not garnered from hearsay
Also you seem to think I am claiming something I am not to the point of boredom.
Please come and have a test in mine in such conditions in said situations or any come to that.
I won’t bother with rolleyes.
Dearie me you boys still don't get. So you don't think
To repeat to OP if you can afford all incurred costs buy an R over anything else.
Surely the most important thing is to have traction to lose momentum, not gain it?
The disadvantages of not gaining momentum are simply time - the disadvantages of not losing momentum could be time, money and lives.
As has been said - you're obviously blinkered in your opinion and not open to others viewpoints so I'll probably leave it there. I'm off to push a double decker bus up a 1 in 4 hill on my own - it's probably easier than having a reasoned discussion with you.
If you don't gain momentum pal you don't go anywhere until a 4WD tows you out!
So you are saying a 2WD is as good or bad as a R in ALL situations, if not you agree with me. Blimey I can't get it between your ears can i, I wonder why :grin: :drool: :cool:
Still one day for sure you will hopefully get the chance to find out. As you seem to ignore my own experiences with silly juvenile :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: comments.
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Jeeez, and I thought my Mrs always had to have the last word.
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I wonder if the OP is any more enlightened.
Seems unlikely but on the plus side, with my feet up, a giant bag of popcorn and a cuppa it has been entertaining!
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Jeeez, and I thought my Mrs always had to have the last word.
:grin: Well, at least the wife must be right sometimes? This guy's just fighting for his right to remain ignorant against an entire forum. At this point I think he either doesn't read or doesn't understand what people write to him, you can tell from the irrelevance of his replies, and I honestly don't know which is worse...
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In terms of general handling (ignoring the AWD benefits), wouldn't the R have a slightly better front/rear weight distribution (I assume most of the additional 100Kg is in the rear diff/axle) and also a lower centre of gravity as the additional weight is under the floor? These factors should combine to improve handling neutrality. They are both great cars so just drive both and see which "feels" best.
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I wonder if the OP is any more enlightened.
Seems unlikely but on the plus side, with my feet up, a giant bag of popcorn and a cuppa it has been entertaining!
What have I started :grin:
I'm still looking at those cars on Sat and hopefully try them both. Heart says R brain says GTI PP
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I wonder if the OP is any more enlightened.
Seems unlikely but on the plus side, with my feet up, a giant bag of popcorn and a cuppa it has been entertaining!
What have I started :grin:
I'm still looking at those cars on Sat and hopefully try them both. Heart says R brain says GTI PP
Go with your heart, you don't want to regret it.
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I wonder if the OP is any more enlightened.
Seems unlikely but on the plus side, with my feet up, a giant bag of popcorn and a cuppa it has been entertaining!
What have I started :grin:
I'm still looking at those cars on Sat and hopefully try them both. Heart says R brain says GTI PP
Yeah, topics like this easily turn into flame wars. That's why many Golf R drivers moved to the VWROC forum. You should try asking the same question over there. It would be interesting to see if you get a balanced response.
Sounds like your wife thinks you should buy an Golf R. Though I suppose you still have to pay for it.
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There's one crucial (to me at least) factor that could easily turn the discussion one way or another that hasn't been mentioned so far: the OP's budget. The only thing we know is he will be looking at pre-FL cars whether GTI or R but with what money in mind? Without that info this is an all-too-general-hardly-new "should I buy a GTI or R" discussion, isn't it?
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That's why many Golf R drivers moved to the VWROC forum. You should try asking the same question over there. It would be interesting to see if you get a balanced response.
Sounds like your wife thinks you should buy an Golf R. Though I suppose you still have to pay for it.
Good luck with that balanced response on vwroc. :grin:
Don’t women earn money? :huh: :grin:
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I have been on the R forum but there not too helpful i've found. Between me and the wife i'm the sensible one when it comes to money :whistle:
When it comes to price this is where I am a bit confused so I said to the steelers this is what I want to pay per month so I just need a yes or no answer if we can do a deal? They reckon yes but I think towards the end of this year i'll have the money for it but i'll see what deals they have. I told them I only want to pay £200-250 per month over 3 years and I don't want a massive balloon payment at the end. And as deposit I only want to use my S3 really which is a 2008 with 80k and satnav & bose system as extra's. Think i'll get offered only 6k for it but I will see if I can squeeze them. If I can't afford it now then by the end of the year ill have some money in the bank anyway to make up the differance. Think PCP is the way to go or again at the end of the year I should get a interest free offer on one of my credit cards. Offers at the moment are a bit rubbish
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I have been on the R forum but there not too helpful i've found.
That’s because a large proportion of them don’t know what a GTI is, or it’s virtues. :laugh:
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You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).
You are wasting your breath. Lots of us have tried to explain this simple concept to CHB100. He is NEVER going to understand it. :rolleyes:
For me being able to have traction on a slippery slope and on the flat to gain momentum is the most IIMPORTANT FACT. While others with 2WD spin 240 horses without progress.
Once on the road I still feel more confident in The knowledge that I’m less likely to get stuck! Albeit similar both may be in gentle driving in icy conditions.
Friend I do have both to try in those conditions so is my true experience and not garnered from hearsay
Also you seem to think I am claiming something I am not to the point of boredom.
Please come and have a test in mine in such conditions in said situations or any come to that.
I won’t bother with rolleyes.
Dearie me you boys still don't get. So you don't think
To repeat to OP if you can afford all incurred costs buy an R over anything else.
Surely the most important thing is to have traction to lose momentum, not gain it?
The disadvantages of not gaining momentum are simply time - the disadvantages of not losing momentum could be time, money and lives.
As has been said - you're obviously blinkered in your opinion and not open to others viewpoints so I'll probably leave it there. I'm off to push a double decker bus up a 1 in 4 hill on my own - it's probably easier than having a reasoned discussion with you.
If you don't gain momentum pal you don't go anywhere until a 4WD tows you out!
So you are saying a 2WD is as good or bad as a R in ALL situations, if not you agree with me. Blimey I can't get it between your ears can i, I wonder why :grin: :drool: :cool:
Still one day for sure you will hopefully get the chance to find out. As you seem to ignore my own experiences with silly juvenile :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: comments.
Nope "pal", if you actually re-read it, you'll note that I actually agree that all things being equal, an R will pull away better than a GTI, even one with the PP. It's even quoted above in my post. What I'm also saying is that it's at this point that the advantages end - you'll have exactly the same braking and cornering abilities in the GTI as the R. Especially when you consider the only time an R is 4wd is when you've lost traction accelerating as it then starts to feed power to the rear wheels.
You seem to think that it's either black or white, either...
a) an R is better than a GTI in ALL situations,
or
b) a GTI is as good as an R in ALL situations.
Neither of which are true. It's been repeatedly said that an R will pull away better than a GTI - it even does it when there's a lot of grip, nature of the 4WD vs FWD beast. I'd also say that in any level of grip, the GTI PP will brake and pull up in the same (maybe slightly less, it is lighter and has exactly the same brakes, after all) distance as the R. Feel free to do some tests of your own as you have access to all the equipment.
As for my "silly juvenile" comment - maybe it comes from exasperation that some people won't accept a reasoned argument. My argument (and many others) is that we AGREE WITH YOU that in any condition (especially slippery one's), the R will pull away better than a GTI. However it won't stop better, which (in my opinion) is probably more important. Anyone can have as much driving experience as they like, but it doesn't stop someone pulling out on you etc.
Here you go, a rolleyes just for you - saved you the bother! :rolleyes:
Anyway - apologies to the OP for the off topic "bants" and back to the original question. I got a GTI PP as I needed a car sooner rather than later when I got it - had I been able to wait, I'd have got an R, especially as after I'd specced mine up, it cost the same as a vanilla R would have done.
In my opinion, the GTI definitely looks better (which is subjective) and once moving, drives better (albeit slower as it has less power) but it's plenty fast enough for me (especially with a tuning box).
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Nope "pal", if you actually re-read it, you'll note that I actually agree that all things being equal, an R will pull away better than a GTI, even one with the PP. It's even quoted above in my post.
As for my "silly juvenile" comment - maybe it comes from exasperation that some people won't accept a reasoned argument. My argument (and many others) is that we AGREE WITH YOU that in any condition (especially slippery one's), the R will pull away better than a GTI. However it won't stop better, which (in my opinion) is probably more important. Anyone can have as much driving experience as they like, but it doesn't stop someone pulling out on you etc.
There is another thread where the same guy made the same claims about the super powers of his Golf R on snow and ice.
As I said, he will NEVER understand what you are saying. He knows better than all of us. :rolleyes:
The rest of us understand exactly what you are saying. Several of us also share your exasperation that someone can be so blinkered.
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These are the figures they came back with. I thought not bad?:
The figures are based on a 49 month PCP covering 14000 miles a year
Your part exchange more than covers the 30% deposit so we would give you back £2000.00
49 monthly payments at £280.46 per month with a option to purchase final payment of £4860.00
They said subject to viewing my car I would get £7000 for it. This is were finance confuses me? Couldn't I just use the whole amount my car is worth against a new one and reduce the monthly payments? Or it has to be a low deposit so they make more money in the long term?
This was the car http://www.parkwayvolkswagen.co.uk/used-car-details/used-volkswagen-golf-gtigtdr-20-tsi-gti-220-ps-hatchback-tornado-red-manual-petrol/id-131655488122/
Its nice but the wrong colour and manual
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Its nice but the wrong colour and manual
Also, it does not have the performance pack.
Does it have red GTI badges like the performance pack? It is hard to tell from those photos.
Are you wanting one of the boring colours that blend in? :tongue: :grin:
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Looks spot on except for the number of doors.
I think it has the PP pack, look at 5th photo.
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I think it has the PP pack, look at 5th photo.
It says the car is 220ps and not the 230ps of the performance pack. Photo 5 shows the smaller brake discs. There is a smaller gap between PP brake disks and the wheel. The brake callipers in photo 3 look solid red. There should be a little bit of white visible from the GTI print.
My car also had bigger exhaust pipe covers. Is that just a Mk7.5 thing? :undecided: Going to look at some photos. Edit: the exhaust pipe covers appear to be smaller on the Mk7 GTIs.
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Your part exchange more than covers the 30% deposit so we would give you back £2000.00
49 monthly payments at £280.46 per month with a option to purchase final payment of £4860.00
They said subject to viewing my car I would get £7000 for it. This is were finance confuses me? Couldn't I just use the whole amount my car is worth against a new one and reduce the monthly payments? Or it has to be a low deposit so they make more money in the long term?
There is a max deposit on VWF PCP of £5k.
You are right, its to give them a minimum profit on the finance.
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Btw that PCP deal sucks big time!
16,790 minus you 5000 deposit minus the GFV 4860 = £6930 effectively on finance.
6930 divided by 49 monthly payments is ~£141 a month, yet you would be paying double that per month.
Is there not another way you could do this?
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I think it has the PP pack, look at 5th photo.
It says the car is 220ps and not the 230ps of the performance pack. Photo 5 shows the smaller brake discs. There is a smaller gap between PP brake disks and the wheel. The brake callipers in photo 3 look solid red. There should be a little bit of white visible from the GTI print.
My car also had bigger exhaust pipe covers. Is that just a Mk7.5 thing? :undecided: Going to look at some photos. Edit: the exhaust pipe covers appear to be smaller on the Mk7 GTIs.
They are the PP brakes, different shape to the non PP.
Brake on the car
(https://s5.postimg.org/hwjw6mzk7/Screenshot_20180112-105743.png) (https://postimg.org/image/nkq6xj3wj/)
Brake on non PP car
(https://s5.postimg.org/5uoici5rb/Screenshot_20180112-105455.png) (https://postimg.org/image/iyu2p6xsz/)
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My mistake - you're right. They have listed the car with the wrong horse power.
I entered the reg in this webpage - http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals)
"Your car is GOLF GTI PERFORMANCE"
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Btw that PCP deal sucks big time!
16,790 minus you 5000 deposit minus the GFV 4860 = £6930 effectively on finance.
6930 divided by 49 monthly payments is ~£141 a month, yet you would be paying double that per month.
Is there not another way you could do this?
I have never been great with maths. I could just stick on my credit card. One of them are offering interest free for 18 months then i'll just transfer it to another one.
As I intended to keep the car a while I wasn't compromising on a couple things. Got to be DSG as i'm forever stuck on the M25 and manual is now doing my head in. And call me old fashioned but I told them any colour apart from black and red. My S3 is black (after 5 months of searching is was the best one I found) and i'm forever cleaning it!!! 10 years ago after having a black mini I said never again. And I know paint now is a lot better but I have it stuck in my head that it will vade over time.
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My mistake - you're right. They have listed the car with the wrong horse power.
I entered the reg in this webpage - http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals)
"Your car is GOLF GTI PERFORMANCE"
But what's with the GTi missing? Repainted maybe.
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My mistake - you're right. They have listed the car with the wrong horse power.
I entered the reg in this webpage - http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals)
"Your car is GOLF GTI PERFORMANCE"
But what's with the GTi missing? Repainted maybe.
Do you mean the lack of red badges? If so, the early GTI PPs had the standard badges - mine's the same.
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My mistake - you're right. They have listed the car with the wrong horse power.
I entered the reg in this webpage - http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/manuals)
"Your car is GOLF GTI PERFORMANCE"
But what's with the GTi missing? Repainted maybe.
Do you mean the lack of red badges? If so, the early GTI PPs had the standard badges - mine's the same.
Every day is a learning day, didn't know that.
Are they removable (the little plate) The PP and R brakes look the same as the brakes that were on my wife's old B6 S4 and the plate was removable.
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These are the figures they came back with. I thought not bad?:
The figures are based on a 49 month PCP covering 14000 miles a year
Your part exchange more than covers the 30% deposit so we would give you back £2000.00
49 monthly payments at £280.46 per month with a option to purchase final payment of £4860.00
They said subject to viewing my car I would get £7000 for it. This is were finance confuses me? Couldn't I just use the whole amount my car is worth against a new one and reduce the monthly payments? Or it has to be a low deposit so they make more money in the long term?
This was the car http://www.parkwayvolkswagen.co.uk/used-car-details/used-volkswagen-golf-gtigtdr-20-tsi-gti-220-ps-hatchback-tornado-red-manual-petrol/id-131655488122/
Its nice but the wrong colour and manual
Hang on, that all adds up to £23,600.
Surely you could get a new one for not much more. If you are set on paying monthlies for a car, then I'd look at leasing. I'm sure you'd get into a new GTI for less than £300 a month on a two year deal. If you bank the money you get by selling your current car, over the next 4 years you could have had two new cars and still have your £7k. Buying this used one, all you will have is a car that you still owe money on, or very little equity in if you want to use it as a px.
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Is there a best leasing website to go to to price up a car for personal lease? My wife priced up an R last night with Nationwide and is was something £370p/m over 24 months plus 3 months up front. Doesn't seem that cheap.
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It's a case of keep looking and waiting for a silly cheap deal to pop up. A mate has just done a deal on an Jag XF through Vanarama for very little money. I can't remember the figures, but it worked out at just over £7000 on a two year deal for a £40k car.
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What dubber36 says is true. Whenever I look there's never great deals but I do know sometimes people get bargains as and when they appear.
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Is there a best leasing website to go to to price up a car for personal lease? My wife priced up an R last night with Nationwide and is was something £370p/m over 24 months plus 3 months up front. Doesn't seem that cheap.
Try these;-
https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/
https://www.contracthireandleasing.com
Then there's the usual brokers, NVS, Central, Select etc. The good deals tend to be manufacturer backed and tend to be limited in numbers so can be gone in the blink of an eye.
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Yes you have to keep an eye out for cheap deals and they get snapped up quick! We have two cheap lease deal cars at the min... £2400 down on each... £140 a month for gtd and I pay £107 for our GTI.
Gtd goes back soon so Golf r estate on order on lease £3k down £220 a month.
Back on topic as others have said that finance deal is terrible!
When I had my old mk7 GTI on a pcp I put £3k down and paid £280 on a brand new car. Have you price up a new one just to satisfy your curiosity?!
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Is there a best leasing website to go to to price up a car for personal lease? My wife priced up an R last night with Nationwide and is was something £370p/m over 24 months plus 3 months up front. Doesn't seem that cheap.
Try these;-
https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/
https://www.contracthireandleasing.com
Then there's the usual brokers, NVS, Central, Select etc. The good deals tend to be manufacturer backed and tend to be limited in numbers so can be gone in the blink of an eye.
Cheers for that.
Yes you have to keep an eye out for cheap deals and they get snapped up quick! We have two cheap lease deal cars at the min... £2400 down on each... £140 a month for gtd and I pay £107 for our GTI.
Gtd goes back soon so Golf r estate on order on lease £3k down £220 a month.
Back on topic as others have said that finance deal is terrible!
When I had my old mk7 GTI on a pcp I put £3k down and paid £280 on a brand new car. Have you price up a new one just to satisfy your curiosity?!
That R and GTi looks really good value.
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Yes really lucky to get the GTI deal, the manual price was only £96 a month which I wish I had gone with with. Only 5k miles but to be honest only gone over by 1k. The R price is for 8k a year as it will become the main car. Again could have got that cheaper but couldn’t live with two white cars so metallic paint added £20 a month.
Off topic but you can avoid any admin fees that the lease company charges by going direct with a dealer.... you just need to find the dealers that are doing the offers.
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For hot lease deals keep an eye on the Pistonheads lease deals thread. Google Pistonheads lease deals Vol 5
Currently hot deals on A5 cabriolets, some Jags and Volvos. Nothing too hot on VW except perhaps Tiguan.
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On a PCP, is the VW contribution only available on a VW Finance agreement or do you get it from any PCP in the open market?
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On a PCP, is the VW contribution only available on a VW Finance agreement or do you get it from any PCP in the open market?
You're not going to get a finance contribution from VW if you take out 3rd party finance. VWFS give you a contribution as they make money on the interest.
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I've just cancelled a lease on standard gti in Atlantic blue.
If anyone's interested I can give details of company.
It was around £2250 deposit £249 a month 3yrs 8k.
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Guzzle - that’s what I had assumed. So if there is a decent contribution deal on and you intend to cancel finance and “cash buy” after delivery, VW finance must be cheaper as you start £1,000 or £1,500 better than using third party finance. Am I correct?
(I appreciate there may be cheaper third party finance if you intend to stay in the agreement for the duration by virtue of lower charges/interest compared to VW).
Incidentally I am buying my car with personal loan (top-up to trade in value) from M and S Bank at 3pc. Cheap as chips and at the end you actually own the car.
Next time, I will do the same but go into a VW PCP when there is a decent contribution then settle cash after delivery.
I didn’t do it this time as the Scottish dealer gave me a straight 18 pc off list on a last of line mk7 which I was looking for in Reflex Silver.
(If the 7.5 had still offered the same colour I might have waited and got one).
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Good news and bad. The red one wasn't about so I drove a standard GTI with DSG and I did love it, Even tho on paper it was a bit slower than my S3 it did feel a bit quicker. Comfort mode was a lot better than I thought it would be but sport mode the ride I didn't really like but you change all that in individual. Now they found at there Derby branch a limestone grey PP with everything I wanted but it was 24k. I told them the figures they sent me by email was way to expensive so they did that usual wait 10 mins while i'll talk to the numbers guy. But the price was still too much even with all the extras chucked in. Anyway we walked away and my wife spotted a R for sale at 21k so looked round it and it was white which is my first choice colour and it was 4 door with DSG. So she starts hounding me to go back in and ask about it :tongue:
It had done 27k and was a 64 plate. Needed a few minor bits on the body work but pretty good for its age. It was slightly cheaper a month and a smaller balloon payment but with interest it was a rip off. Just looked online and I could get a loan for £310 over 4 years and they offered me 7500 for my car. So ill think about it over the weekend and let them know. They would give me 2 free services but ill push them for 3 plus I wanted those body work issues done otherwise knock a grand off and ill get it done.
In conclusion both very very good cars. GTI I felt was a much better car than the Focus MK3 RS I drove last month
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21k for a 64 plate R with 27k on the clock? Are they taking the p!ss?
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Guzzle - that’s what I had assumed. So if there is a decent contribution deal on and you intend to cancel finance and “cash buy” after delivery, VW finance must be cheaper as you start £1,000 or £1,500 better than using third party finance. Am I correct?
(I appreciate there may be cheaper third party finance if you intend to stay in the agreement for the duration by virtue of lower charges/interest compared to VW).
Incidentally I am buying my car with personal loan (top-up to trade in value) from M and S Bank at 3pc. Cheap as chips and at the end you actually own the car.
Next time, I will do the same but go into a VW PCP when there is a decent contribution then settle cash after delivery.
I didn’t do it this time as the Scottish dealer gave me a straight 18 pc off list on a last of line mk7 which I was looking for in Reflex Silver.
(If the 7.5 had still offered the same colour I might have waited and got one).
If you want to buy the car outright, the cheapest way is to accept the finance contribution offered by the dealer (as long as there is one) and then settle the finance in the first few days after delivery. Ideally with cash if you have it, or with a cheaper loan. Several forum members here have done it and will be able to explain exactly what they did.
Other third party finance is obviously available, but you won't get a deposit contribution, so as you say you will start off £1k behind (or however much the deposit contribution is). Therefore you would need to ensure that the interest rate is low enough to make the difference back to beat the dealer finance. Don't just rely on the interest rate though, always get written quotations and compare the total amount payable including fees.
The personal loan will result in ownership of the car if you see it through to the end, but if the interest rate on both is similar, then compared to a PCP you will either have higher monthly payments or you will be paying over a longer period because there is no balloon payment at the end. The longer the term, the more interest you will be charged.
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What the OP needs to consider is that on PCPs he will be left with very little at the end of the deal. A tiny amount of equity if he's lucky. Putting down a large deposit will bring the payments down, but he'll never see that money again. That's why I suggested leasing ealier on in the thread. If he banks the money he gets for his S3, he'll still have that at the end of the lease deal and still have been paying similar monthlies.
You need to do the sums and work out every last penny it will cost you to ride around in a car. Inflated screen prices and higher interest rates along with the more expensive PCP way of funding make used cars, in many cases more expensive than new.
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(http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/raiden328i/IMG_20180225_091924_zps2r1xmo1w.jpg) (http://s1047.photobucket.com/user/raiden328i/media/IMG_20180225_091924_zps2r1xmo1w.jpg.html)
Bought this yesterday and very happy. I just told myself if you buy a GTI you will always say maybe I should of gone for an R. Really happy with it :grin:
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(http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/raiden328i/IMG_20180225_091924_zps2r1xmo1w.jpg) (http://s1047.photobucket.com/user/raiden328i/media/IMG_20180225_091924_zps2r1xmo1w.jpg.html)
Bought this yesterday and very happy. I just told myself if you buy a GTI you will always say maybe I should of gone for an R. Really happy with it :grin:
Where affordable you should always go with your heart, great choice! :smiley:
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looks great
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Congratulations on your R! Looks really good. I hope you really enjoy it, it’s a great car. :smiley:
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The R is faster and in nearly every way the better car.
However regardless of the very minor cost difference I went for a GTI. It felt more lively and as though you actually needed a small amount of skill to drive it fast. The R anybody can get in and drive fast..... to the point of being boring imo.
However the single biggest reason I went GTI is image. I'm sure every area of the country is different, but around West Yorkshire the R is generally driven by complete chav idiots. Zero class, baseball cap wearing morons. It's like a magnet for them for some reason. Same a little bit in the GTD, but the GTI you never really see it.
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You are talking Honda type R and not us sophisticated deer stalker Golf R owners I hope. Admit Cirencester is very near the Cheltenham Average though.
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However the single biggest reason I went GTI is image. I'm sure every area of the country is different, but around West Yorkshire the R is generally driven by complete chav idiots. Zero class, baseball cap wearing morons. It's like a magnet for them for some reason. Same a little bit in the GTD, but the GTI you never really see it.
I've borrowed a track suit, a baseball cap and a crack pipe to use today when I go out in my GTD.
I'll see you out there, presumably you are the one with the top hat and the corgis?
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I was leaving a car park yesterday and there was a GTi parked in between two parking spaces with a van parked on either side of it about 2" away from it. To make it worse the GTi was parked rear up against the wall so I'm not sure how the owner was going to get into his car.
The two guys that parked the vans were pissing themselves laughing. I asked them how long were they parking there for and they said they were on their way to the pub and wouldn't be moving them until tomorrow.