Golf GTI or the R

[scanesare]

I’d say the opposite. DSG for track where you’re in PlayStation mode wanting nanosecond gear changes going sequentially up and down the box one gear at a time, and manual for a road car that doesn’t sit in traffic jams all day long.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean DSG is bad on the track, quite contrary: Being able to change gears with both your hands on the steering wheel offers extra confidence and focus on your lines, and as for shift times they are practically non-existent compared to manual gear changes. The possible issues lie with learning the track (or favorite fast road) well and planning your driving so you don't end up in those (admittedly rare) situations where the car will up-shift despite the fact you'd like it to stay at the limiter for another 20ft. before actually braking or forgetting to down shift early enough, causing a double shift-down (one from you one from the box).

Again, those are issues which you most likely will come across during your early years of learning how a DSG behaves and very rarely after you will have become familiar with it, but they are there nonetheless.

[CHB100]

I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road ) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased 

[Sootchucker]

Quite interested in the new 7 speed DSG.Coming from a Diesel (GTD) perspective, I'd have thought the 7 speed would have been more economical that the older 6 speed, due to a tall 7th gear and a better spread of ratios in the 6 gears below that ?

However, looking at the current MK7.5 brochure vs one from 2014 for the MK7, the figures for the 5 door GTD are:

Gearbox Type

Urban

X-Urban

Combined

New 7 Speed DSG	50.4	62.8	57.6
Old 6 Speed DSG	49.6	68.9	60.1

I know these are manufacturers figures and so not achievable, but if the same criteria was used for both, then combined, the new 7 speed is around 5% less economical (which does seem a bit weird) ?

[fredgroves]

What you have to factor into that Sooty is that VW changed the figures on the GTD between the Mk7 and Mk7.5... A Mk7.5 GTD is apparently worse MPG and more CO2....

I ranted about this for some time when the 7.5 data first came out...

(Check the manual gearbox equipped GTD data for Mk7 and 7.5 for comparison)

[scanesare]

I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road ) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased 

Lol at the comical effort to present anything about the 7.5R as absolutely flawless (the statements about AWD superiority during cornering and braking on snow/ice are still my favorite though), never ceases to be amusing.

On a serious note, does the absolutely amazing, re-invented, [enter-your-definition-of-awe-inspiring] DQ381 not up-shift automatically near the limiter? (hint: Yes)

Is it not an identical twin clutch system that operates on pre-selecting the next gear by heavily relying on current throttle, gear, speed input (and as such susceptible to mis-calculations and typical DSG hiccups on the rare occasion that the driver input is completely unexpected?)

Clearly the unit is new and in much less quantities currently than the number of previous DQ380 (DSG6) boxes to form a solid conclusion on how it behaves under all conditions but it seems it is maybe not the best thing since sliced bread according to some owners in Australia? Funny he how describes stock map as totally messed up 

Link from VWROC:
http://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/23422-tvs-engineering-tcu-sw-dq381-facelift-7-speed-dsg/

Disclaimer: I am not member "PocketRocket" at VWROC

[CHB100]

I guess no one has driven the 7 speed DSG R then ?. It's the perfect combination, seriously, and I know of the minor failings of the 6 speed DSG. Funny thing is in manual mode it can be as satisfying as a std manual, I would have thought ?. I guess fine if you're not often in traffic jams, roadworks (name your favourite M road ) or town/city driving. I'm sure the debate will continue long after the manual gearbox has deceased 

Lol at the comical effort to present anything about the 7.5R as absolutely flawless (the statements about AWD superiority during cornering and braking on snow/ice are still my favorite though), never ceases to be amusing.

That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.

The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.

That OZ description certainly does not equate with my experience at all the total reverse in fact. They still have less horses I believe? So far I have nothing to complain about the package, maybe I'm lucky, it's actually better than I anticipated. As before I would be well happy with the Clubsport if not for the R. I'm afraid I have nothing to whinge about other than the build quality. I maybe would have improved the brakes, but have now bedded in well.

[scanesare]

That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.

Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.

The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.

You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...

PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...

PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.

Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.

[CHB100]

That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.

Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.

The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.

You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...

PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...

PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.

Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.

There were massive benefits the other week on my sloping driveway and pulling away from a standing start on sheet ice outside the post office and at B Tescos carpark. Thats enough for me, my ladies GTI would struggle. As for on the icy road I take the softly approach or don't go out. After 54 years driving including the notorious BMW 2002 TURBO LHD! Which faced the wrong way on damp roads with only 170bhp. Let some air out and use the handbrake not foot that's how we managed to get to work, narrow tyres help immensely also.

[Gnasher]

That is NOT my quote at all?, You seem to have an obsession with winter tyres, a suitable case for treatment.

Winter tires are probably a dull topic to be obsessed with. Grip and how mechanical systems actually work on the other hand is quite interesting I have to admit. I am not judging your choice to ignore all of that, physics and engineering are not for everyone after all even though traction and grip should be pretty "grasp-able" topics for anyone spending time on a car forum.

The Golf AWD v 2WD on same tyres is superior in those conditions and you know it. End of, winter tyres is another topic. Obviously, you, in particular, need them, most of us don't, sorry about that.

You couldn't be more far away from the truth actually. You have the typical AWD over-confidence merely because you don't know how the AWD system in your car works and what it can and can't do. If you knew you would realise that even though setting off is easier/better, there are no benefits during cornering or braking compared to a 2WD car on an snowy or icy road. Try to find a driving course for AWD cars or poor conditions in general. VW hosts them in some countries. Maybe if you hear it from a qualified instructor you will be able to accept it or even understand it...

PS. We've had a RAV4 with proper AWD in the family for years. Great car and all but the only time we ever got close to crashing badly was when going down an icy hill in summer tires because my father, unfortunately shared the same sort of AWD ignorance and believed it just improves everything on the car, cures the sick and what not...

PS2. This is hardly about defending/attacking choices, I hope you are not confused. The Golf R is a great car and it would have been my choice (was the first car I test-drove) if the CS did not appeal more for my own needs and like so I clearly have nothing against it. But as with any car, it is useful to know the actual capabilities and inherent weaknesses and try to stop old myths and misconceptions perpetually circulate.

Hopefully we could get back on topic after this parenthesis.

There were massive benefits the other week on my sloping driveway and pulling away from a standing start on sheet ice outside the post office and at B Tescos carpark. Thats enough for me, my ladies GTI would struggle. As for on the icy road I take the softly approach or don't go out. After 54 years driving including the notorious BMW 2002 TURBO LHD! Which faced the wrong way on damp roads with only 170bhp. Let some air out and use the handbrake not foot that's how we managed to get to work, narrow tyres help immensely also.

You're just proving scanesare's point there - you're focusing on just the advantages in pulling away from a standing start. When you say "my lady's GTI would struggle", I agree - yes it would, but only at pulling away and your R would be equally as bad at stopping or cornering (assuming an even/trailing throttle - if you're booting it, you shouldn't be out in those conditions).

[Bullfinch]

In the UK, especially in southern England the number of days per year which are snowy/icy are likely to be less than 10.  On the other hand days when the roads are damp are 100+.  Therefore I would value the extra ability the R has in pulling away at roundabouts and junctions in these condition.  However you need to weigh this up against higher running costs (mpg).  Overall I'm happy with my GTi PP 95% of the time and it's only the other 5% I wish I had an R.