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Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: Rolfe on 04 December 2010, 23:58
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Please don't hit me! I asked this question in the thread that got locked, but it was overlooked.
Ben posted links to a series of Canadian public information films about winter tyres. The take-home message was to fit winter tyres rather than all-weather tyres, with a side order of "fit four, not two". Only two of the clips involved cars with only two winter tyres, and the first of these was two rear winter tyres on a RWD car. Unsurprisingly, the thing was almost unsteerable when pushed. (They didn't try winter tyres on the rear of a front-wheel-drive car, I can't imagine why! :rolleyes: )
The problematic clip is the fifth one, where they get on to two winter tyres on the front wheels of a FWD car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtAm7RsTmE
Note the two cars the clip starts with are not identical. And only one of these has an ABS installed! (How many cars these days don't have ABS, for pity's sake?) So to make it fair, we've disabled the ABS on the other car.
The first run of tests just puts full winter tyres up against all-weather tyres, in braking and cornering. Obviously, the winter tyres do a lot better. However, they then try winter tyres on the front only against full winter tyres. The relevant section is at 1 min 45 seconds. In the braking test, the car with just the front winter tyres spins round, with the rear trying to overtake the front.
This looks quite scary, especially as this is the way my car is set up at present. I know the rear end will throw out when cornering, and thus I take corners slowly. Not a problem. But an emergency stop is an emergency stop. You can't know you'll never have to do one. And that looked downright dangerous.
My question is, why did they disable the ABS? Is it not likely that if the ABS had been operational, that car would have stopped under control, without spinning round? (Not expecting the same stopping distance as the full winter tyres, obviously.)
I think it's a dishonest test, deliberately designed to scare the punters into buying the two extra tyres, but that they had to disable the ABS in order for the two-only on a FWD car to look like a bad idea. I do not feel like trying this at home, not without a disused airfield handy, so could anyone tell me if I'm right about this?
Rolfe.
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ABS makes a significant difference to braking performance, so disabling it levels the playing field for the tests.
I'm more interested in the surface used in the braking tests - one car appears to be braking on snow, the other on a more compacted icy section. That one is bound to travel further regardless of tyre choice. For that reason I am not convinced the test is totally fair.
With ABS/ESP your car will be far less prone to spin under emergency braking. But lets face it, if you stand on the brakes whether it's snow, rain or perfectly dry, weight transfer and the simple laws of physics will try to spin the car regardless of tyres. If you've got more grip at the front because of winter tyres then yes, there's more chance of a spin. But is it dangerous? Well that's up to you to decide.
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Here is what I posted in that locked thread, quote:
Having a drastic difference in grip between the front and rear axle is highly unadvisable. Avoid this situation if you can at all help it.
When it comes to fitting two new tyres (whether it be summer, all-season, winter or snow tyres) to whichever axle, let it be clear there is no such thing as "the better" option, it is more about the "least worst" option.
The German Automobile Club (ADAC) conducted a test, by fitting gripper tyres on the FRONT axle, and ended up with the following results:
Pros
- Reduced aquaplaning when cornering.
- Significant reduction in braking distances when slippery.
- Slight reduction in braking distances when dry.
Cons
- Significant likelihood of snap oversteer (on cars without ESP).
- Likelihood of snap oversteer on cars with ESP is reduced, but if the limits of the ESP are breached (they cannot bend the laws of physics) then the ensuing break in traction tends to be more violent and uncontrollable.
The conclusion reached by ADAC is to fit gripper tyres on the rear axle. Hence, the recommendation of tyre manufacturers and motoring organisations stems from their goal to prevent any situation which could lead to snap oversteer in slippery conditions, which in their opinion overrides the benefits from fitting gripper tyres on the front axle. Essentially, their priority is ensuring and maintaining stability on the road.
My opinion - you're pretty much f***ed either way.
However, different drivers have different priorities, and if you're intelligent and mature enough to look all the facts, and take into account local conditions, then you can probably make your own decision accordingly.
End quote
I think it's a dishonest test... they had to disable the ABS in order for the two-only on a FWD car to look like a bad idea. I do not feel like trying this at home, not without a disused airfield handy, so could anyone tell me if I'm right about this?
Nope, as mac7 said, that's just the laws of physics at work without electronic hinderance. I believe ABS alone wouldn't have made a significant difference, it only prevents the wheels from locking (and there are plenty of cars on the road without ESP ya'know) but you can at least choose what to hit/avoid. ESP working in conjuction with ABS is what you need to prevent understeer or oversteer.
... deliberately designed to scare the punters into buying the two extra tyres...
Nope, fitting only two winter tyres is a huge compromise whichever axle they're on, and the bloke who sold you two tyres seriously needs his head checked.
... this is the way my car is set up at present.
Mate, you've already taken the plunge and committed yourself to fitting winter tyres (which is a decision in itself) so do it right the first time - just buy another pair.
Oh, and don't go back to the garage that sold you the pair, take your business elsewhere!
But is it dangerous? Well that's up to you to decide.
As he says, you need to decide what you need from your car. You can use the list of pros/cons I've provided to help make your own informed decision.
But the overriding message is clear - do not fit only two winter tyres (pretty much everyone in the locked thread was at least in agreement with that).
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Snow is one of the conditions where ABS isn't a benefit, all things being equal. In snow, braking performance can be enhanced by snow build up in front of a locked wheel, rather than ABS letting it pass under as it unlocks the brake.
Things not being equal, like in Rolfes case, then ABS is a definite advantage
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ESP is an advantage as it will try and stop the car spinning by changing the braking of the wheels etc.
ABS i hate in snow (all other things been equal, tyres etc) as it increases braking distances. Why the car makers stopped fitting the ABS off switch like Audi and many others use to fit i don't know. As i have no confidence in a car with ABS in deep snow.
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ESP is an advantage as it will try and stop the car spinning by changing the braking of the wheels etc.
ABS i hate in snow (all other things been equal, tyres etc) as it increases braking distances. Why the car makers stopped fitting the ABS off switch like Audi and many others use to fit i don't know. As i have no confidence in a car with ABS in deep snow.
A big +1 form me :smiley:
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That video was pretty convincing really!!
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I have to say, I wish they'd shown a comparison with the ABS on.
I appreciate that having four winter tyres is preferable. It wasn't really my choice only to have two. Nevertheless, the car is running as if it was on caterpillar tracks and I haven't been stuck or even noticed any wheelspin. Last year I was stuck several times, and the car completely failed to take a hill. I also find that running two winter tyres is quite common. Someone else at work is doing it, and another forum discussion mentioned that it's common practice in the USA.
I don't really mind having to take the corners carefully, and I'm getting around just fine. I think it's unlikely that I'll go back to the garage and insist on getting a second pair fitted now. I'm trying to decide (well in advance!) what line to take next year. Do I just go with the single pair, or put my foot down and insist on the full set?
That video is all very well, but it doesn't represent reality without the ABS, so I'm interested in how much difference disabling the ABS would have made.
Lecturing that having four winter tyres is better is redundant. I know that. However, the mood music I'm getting is that the extent of the poorer performance, and indeed the dangers, of only running two are being grossly exaggerated by the pedants, and that in practice it works fairly well.
If not, maybe some reference to accident statistics where having only two winter tyres was identified as a factor, would be handy. Or maybe there's a country somewhere (not counting countries where full winter tyres are mandatory of course) that has banned the practice for safety reasons?
Rolfe.
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I have to say, I wish they'd shown a comparison with the ABS on.
Me too. For the sake of completeness, they really should've done a test with ABS to highlight its benefit or otherwise. Nothing beats putting theory into practice.
I'm trying to decide (well in advance!) what line to take next year. Do I just go with the single pair, or put my foot down and insist on the full set?
You should by now have enough information to make an informed decision.
... the dangers of only running two are being grossly exaggerated...
Their reasoning behind fitting four winter tyres (or two on the rear) is to ensure a driver can maintain stability at all costs (see my previous post).
... I'm getting around just fine...
It sounds like the last remaining barrier to peace-of-mind rests on braking stability.
If you have ESP you'll be mostly fine. It is still possible to get the back to step out, but I imagine it'll be difficult under most circumstances. Just keep doing what you're doing and life should be sweet.
If you only have ABS, then keep researching.
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Rolfe, i would say if yout getting around just fine now then why bother with another pair? Are you not going to hang on to the pair you have? Would save the expense next year.
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don't know whether this has been posted before but a certain Mr Tiff Needell tests 3 modern driving enhancements ABS, traction control and ESC (ESP) in various situations.
In the ABS example he demonstrated going down a slippery hill and not smacking into the sides with ABS turned on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0
I'm not totally convinced turning off ABS is a good idea (assuming it was something you could do in our cars) i don't really ever remember what driving a car without ABS is like anymore. a few racing games i've played appear to simulate locking of wheels and i know i have to release the brake to regain control of steering, but cos i'm going racing speeds releasing the brake i'm already too far into the bend to make it so probably end up in the gravel!
but driving on snow has it's own problems - only last night whilst pulling up to a junction that had some snow, even at slow speeds of something like 10mph, i press the brake lightly and the ABS starts banging on my foot quite violently. if i'm only just pressing the pedal lightly and the ABS is kicking in, what would the car do if it didn't have ABS? am i gonna drift off into the main road?!
i think for my lame driving skills, having ABS is safer.
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I remember that fifthgear i actual thought about it when the other thread went abit crazy.
As i said in deep snow ABS is a problem imo, that video shows smooth slippery snow there is a huge difference imo in how a car stops in deep snow to smooth snow. It builds up the snow in front of the wheels and acts like a brake/wall to slow you down with no ABS, with ABS it just keeps going and going and going.
ESP as i said i agree with him it stops you swopping ends.
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During the downhill braking test with ABS enabled, it isn't immediately clear if ESP (which the Jaguar has, as you soon discover) is disabled or not.
The problem is that ESP and ABS always work together as a team. They are tightly integrated systems so I think it would be difficult to disable one or the other.
We're getting closer, but I'm afraid it doesn't completely answer Rolfe's original query.
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but driving on snow has it's own problems - only last night whilst pulling up to a junction that had some snow, even at slow speeds of something like 10mph, i press the brake lightly and the ABS starts banging on my foot quite violently. if i'm only just pressing the pedal lightly and the ABS is kicking in, what would the car do if it didn't have ABS? am i gonna drift off into the main road?!
i think for my lame driving skills, having ABS is safer.
In situations like that you should be reading the road further ahead looking for more grip. Keeping a wheel in fresh uncompacted snow, or close to the grass verge where there is likely to be some loose gravel will always aid braking when it's slippy. Even taking advantage of some grip way before the junction to allow you to apply a little more braking force is good practice. You may annoy the driver behind by seemly braking too early, but better that than slide across a juction and possibly have the car behind you giving you a helpful push.
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In situations like that you should be reading the road further ahead looking for more grip. Keeping a wheel in fresh uncompacted snow, or close to the grass verge where there is likely to be some loose gravel will always aid braking when it's slippy. Even taking advantage of some grip way before the junction to allow you to apply a little more braking force is good practice. You may annoy the driver behind by seemly braking too early, but better that than slide across a juction and possibly have the car behind you giving you a helpful push.
yeh man i've found even on a thin layer of snow that traffic hasn't been going over, i pull over to the side to let oncoming traffic pass parked cars and ABS is going crazy as it tries to stop the car. it's actually quite scary because for the rest of the year i've been used to the very effective brakes and it's really weird not really feeling grip for braking. i already feel i'm being very careful but there is that lingering thought at the back of my mind thinking "omg i'm gonna have an accident" - i think i'm going to have to take it even more easy for a few weeks.
today i had some Audi dude right up in my mirrors and i was driving through a pedestrian (pelican) crossing it was going amber. it was a borderline stop or carry on, if nobody was behind me i probably would have stopped but with this Audi so close and the road wet and cold and i got summer tyres on and i don't know whether the driver behind would react in time i thought i'll keep going although i did feel a bit scared in case a pedestrian might jump out in front of me.
the Audi jumped the amber light. f**king mentalist.
another related question, do you think ABS might have helped the driver of this Fiesta?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAd_56yqfg (maybe not safe for work.... :undecided:)
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I doubt it! :grin:
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come on lads, your doing something wrong if you cant drive with normal tyres in the snow.
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It's not impossible to drive in the snow with summer tyres but it's a lot faster, eaiser and safer with winter tyres, that's for sure.
Slowly but surely, we are starting to realise their benefits.
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It's not impossible to drive in the snow with summer tyres but it's a lot faster, eaiser and safer with winter tyres, that's for sure.
Slowly but surely, we are starting to realise their benefits.
I think thats the problem, people with winter tyres will be lulled into this false sense of security that they can drive faster when really the only time they can drive faster is in light snow, and even then you can only go as fast as the car in front (who probably won't have winter tyres). I am happy keeping my all weather tyres on and just taking the extra care in driving.
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Unlike ABS and ESP which can only maximise the amount traction you already have, winter tyres genuinely increase the amount of traction available at your disposal. That's why they allow you to accelerate, corner and brake much better. It also allows the ABS and ESP to work more effectively, because their window of grip is significantly widened.
They are no gimmick and the advantages they provide are quite real, especially in snow.
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I think thats the problem, people with winter tyres will be lulled into this false sense of security that they can drive faster when really the only time they can drive faster is in light snow, and even then you can only go as fast as the car in front (who probably won't have winter tyres). I am happy keeping my all weather tyres on and just taking the extra care in driving.
Anyone that flies about like a lunatic on the snow should be locked up.
For those of us that get lots of snow, every winter, winter tyres make the difference betweeen going somewhere, and going nowhere. I can't even get out of the driveway with summer tyres on, whereas with winter tyres on, I can find the traction to drive away.
If I keep summer tyres on, I stay at home...not through choice.
Not to mention the benefits of having the correct compound when it's just cold, not snowy...benefits in braking specifically.
I tried an ABS test last night, on a snowy/slushy open road..and had to hit the brakes damn hard to kick the ABS in...way harder than any sane driver would brake in the conditions if driving appropriately.
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Thanks for all the helpful replies chaps.
It sounds like the last remaining barrier to peace-of-mind rests on braking stability.
If you have ESP you'll be mostly fine. It is still possible to get the back to step out, but I imagine it'll be difficult under most circumstances. Just keep doing what you're doing and life should be sweet.
Well, obviously I have ESP, because the GTi Mk VI has ESP. As you say, braking stability is the concern.
I don't mind taking corners carefully. I used to drive a motorbike and had full RAC/ACU training on that. Staying alive when cornering was a big issue. Even today, I have a bit of a reflex that says, "if you have to brake while you are cornering you have made a bad mistake". I've tried the limits of the two-tyre set-up when cornering and I know how it behaves. The solution is to corner as if you're still wearing summer tyres.
I had a bad experience when I was a teenager, back in the pleistocene, driving my Dad's car, and I didn't treat a snow-packed road up by Netherburn with the respect it deserved. I totally lost traction and spun into the ditch. I had to get a farmer to pull me out with his tractor, and I found I'd wrecked the car's radiator. That was a learning experience and a half. I do not want to find myself in that situation again.
come on lads, your doing something wrong if you cant drive with normal tyres in the snow.
Have you actually tried to drive the MkVI in thick snow, in the supplied tyres? I did last year, and I can tell you it's a nightmare. It won't go up any sort of hill, and if you get the drive wheels into piled snow for any reason, you're not going anywhere until you've got a shovel out.
I think thats the problem, people with winter tyres will be lulled into this false sense of security that they can drive faster when really the only time they can drive faster is in light snow, and even then you can only go as fast as the car in front (who probably won't have winter tyres). I am happy keeping my all weather tyres on and just taking the extra care in driving.
What "all-weather tyres"? Aren't the supplied tyres summer tyres? I thought they were, but I'm open to correction. I have to say the performance of the Bridgestones last year would not have qualified as "all-weather".
Anyone that flies about like a lunatic on the snow should be locked up.
What he said. "I don't want winter tyres because I might then behave like a certifiable lunatic" is a poor answer.
The difference in performance between the supplied tyres and winter tyres is phenomenal. I'm absolutely gobsmacked by the difference, I have to say. And the main effect of the difference is that I'm not getting stuck.
Last night, I was elected driver to get to choir practice. The word has spread that I'm the one running around happily in the snow, while everyone else is scared witless. This is in marked contrast to last year, when I was the one who couldn't even get up the hill to the carol concert in the school hall. Coming back, the temperature was reading -13C, so instead of dropping my last passenger at the end of her road, I rashly said I'd go into the side road and drop her at her door. The problem is there wasn't a decent turning area cleared, and I ended up having to do a sort of seven-point turn that had me in piled snow at each turn. No problem. The winter tyres just bit through whatever I set them at, and I got round and back out in good order.
It's not about "going faster", it's about going anywhere at all.
Right now I'm sitting at work having my coffee break, and it is snowing fit to bust outside. The cars and the car park are disappearing under a white blanket. It's already got to the point where last year I know I'd have had to beg for shovelling help and a push to get going, and actually, it would be AutoSocks time. I'll let you know how it pans out, because right now, the more it snows (tiddley pom) the more it goes (tiddley pom) on snowing. But I have at least some reasonable hope that I'll be able to get in the car and drive away.
For those of us that get lots of snow, every winter, winter tyres make the difference betweeen going somewhere, and going nowhere. I can't even get out of the driveway with summer tyres on, whereas with winter tyres on, I can find the traction to drive away.
If I keep summer tyres on, I stay at home...not through choice.
Not to mention the benefits of having the correct compound when it's just cold, not snowy...benefits in braking specifically.
What he said. I'm not so far north and we don't get a lot of snow predictably, every winter. Nevertheless it gets cold enough to justify winter tyres every winter, and then they're on if the snow does come.
I don't want to drive fast in this, I just want to be able to drive at all. Today, it wouldn't be not getting out of my driveway that would be the issue, it would be not getting home. I'm a convert.
Rolfe.
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Well, obviously I have ESP, because the GTi Mk VI has ESP.
Oops, didn't pick that up. I mean, obviously, else why would you be posting here... :embarassed:
Anyway, you say that you drive to the conditions, so it seems like you know what you're doing.
And if it does go all pear shaped, you have ESP as backup, so the issue of ABS in relation to braking stability is moot.
I'd say that pretty much settles it, unless you have more questions.
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Well, I don't know, I still think the arguments that four winter tyres are the optimal set-up are pretty sound. I could easily get another pair next year (and then it will be ridiculously mild for six months....). I'm getting on great at the moment though.
I said I'd update on how I got on. No trouble. Some of the technicians had dug a bit of a track out of the car park, but there was still a lot of piled snow under my wheels where I was parked. On the Bridgestones, I know I'd have needed them to dig my front wheels out before I got moving, but on the Icebears the car reversed out and onto the cleared area in good order. It also drove straight over the place where I saw someone else stuck earlier, having to be dug out. I don't know what happened to the people who left behind me....
You just need to turn on the TV to see what it was like in central Scotland today. My wheels behaved like true gentlemen through the entire thing. We were lucky that the road home wasn't blocked by idiots who had got stuck. That's always a risk though. The sooner everybody gets persuaded to change their tyres, and going out in winter in Scotland in summer tyres becomes as antisocial as drink-driving, the better.
Rolfe.
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Yes, four tyres are better than two, but we were discussing in terms of your particular setup.
Think of it like this - by having only two winter tyres you've removed a layer of defence (rear grip), so it now means you're relying on your last line of defence (ESP) as your main defence.
But at least you're fortunate enough to have a last line of defence, which is better than nothing.
So unless your feeling particularly cursed this winter, just buy the extra pair next year.
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Had another amazing day today, driving around at -18C on snow and ice, and parking on piled snow. Amazing grip. Other people slithering around like lemons.
If I ask Andrew to fit four winter tyres next year, after this little lot, he's likely just to say "three bags full" and do it.
Rolfe.
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If I ask Andrew to fit four winter tyres next year, after this little lot, he's likely just to say "three bags full" and do it.
Rolfe.
Why not just do it this year? You'll be twice as safe at least and infinitely more mobile. :smiley:
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Judging from Rolfe's posts it sounds like it can wait 'til next winter.
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I don't think it's possible to be infinitely, or even significantly, more mobile than I am at present. And if there is a safety issue, I'm not convinced it's all that marked either.
I suspect the front tyres have taken me to 90%. It's just a question of whether I want the other 10% or not, when I haven't found the limits of what I've got yet.
Rolfe.
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Fair enough. Not worth the bother then. Hope Ben takes note! :wink:
Corrected my spelling error. Being a bit myopic and a rotten typist causes these spelling errors.
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I don't think it's possible to be infinitely, or even significantly, more mobile than I am at present. And if there is a safety issue, I'm not convinced it's all that marked either.
I suspect the front tyres have taken me to 90%. It's just a question of whether I want the other 10% or not, when I haven't found the limits of what I've got yet.
Rolfe.
It'll only reach upwards of 90% under very heavy braking, which would only leave 10% left for the rears, and that isn't much for a winter tyre to work with, let alone a summer tyre! But of course in that situation the ESP system should kick into gear.
It'll be more like 60-80% under gentle to moderate braking, which leaves more grip available for the rears. And from what I can gather, I suspect you've yet to breach these levels because of way you drive (which is good).
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Your other option Rolfe is to fit a couple of cheaper winter tyres on the back, rather than a premium brand. Just keep the load rating the same.
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I've been told that what I have is not a "premium brand"!
I only ended up with two because that's what my cheapskate garage owner got me, as he thought I was going over the top and surely we weren't going to have another winter like last year.... :rolleyes:
Well he found out about four days after he'd fitted them that he was wrong about the last bit.
Now (precisely 14 days after fitting them) we're up to our eyeballs in snow and the temperature at dusk today was a balmy -18.5oC. God only knows what it is now. If I walked into the garage and said, OK Andrew, who's right?, I want rear ones as well, he'd shuffle in embarrassment and fit them.
But what would I actually say? What defect in performance would I point to to justify the request? The instability attributable to the mismatched tyres is fairly slight, and since the whole set-up feels several million per cent safer than the summer tyres, saying it wasn't safe would be ridiculous. The stunt I pulled this afternoon turning out of Broomlee Mains was completely ridiculous, but a Land Rover couldn't have done it any better.
That's my problem. The desire for a full set of winter tyres is at the moment entirely theoretical, ideological, purist if you like. Yes, it's "better". But I can't point to any actual problem I'm having with the half-setup to justify doing anything. "I want to drive like a raving lunatic in the snow" doesn't really seem like a sensible attitude, and it wouldn't even be true.
Why am I complaining? I'm not complaining! I'm ecstatically happy!
Did I mention I was ecstatically happy?
Rolfe the ecstatically happy.
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What did you have fitted again, Hankook Ice Bear 440's? Certainly not the cheapest tyre out there and they get a decent review. I've just ordered a set of these for my wifes car from a local tyre fitter and as long as he's not bulling about being able to get them, I should have them by the weekend. After reading your report it convinced me to get them for her
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Yes, that's right. £120 each. I don't know what the "premium brands" are like, but these things are like caterpillar tracks compared to the summer tyres.
Rolfe.
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Yes, that's right. £120 each. I don't know what the "premium brands" are like, but these things are like caterpillar tracks compared to the summer tyres.
Rolfe.
I have used 3 makes of winter tyres over the years, and would struggle to tell any difference between them on snow/slush/ice because you just drive accordingly.
There may be differences at +2 to +5, or in the rain, but you'd only tell when you start pressing on...which you sure as hell won't be doing in the depths of winter.
They aren't like summer tyres, where it's easy to find the limits on fast roads or the track.
For winter tyres, in my view, if you fit ANY proper winter compound tyres from a maker you have heard of (doesn't matter if they are 'premium' or not) you'll make such a quantum leap in performance and safety over summer tyres that the differences between brands seems irrelevant.
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They aren't like summer tyres, where it's easy to find the limits on fast roads or the track.
For winter tyres, in my view, if you fit ANY proper winter compound tyres from a maker you have heard of (doesn't matter if they are 'premium' or not) you'll make such a quantum leap in performance and safety over summer tyres that the differences between brands seems irrelevant.
To be honest, I hadn't heard of Hankook before I looked at the tyres that had been fitted. Googling them shows a well-known, reputable profile though.
I had heard that winter tyres vary a lot between brands, but as I've only tried this one set then I've got nothing to compare them to. I certainly couldn't be happier with what I was sold. Did a little bit of sliding this morning, again at -18.5oC in packed/loose snow, but no wheelspin and the car just kept going. So many of the roads are practically-speaking single track at the moment, and you have to move over into the sheuch if someone else is coming the other way. I'd have been terrified to do that on the Bridgestones for fear I wouldn't have been able to get out and back on the tyre tracks. Now I just pull over politely and give the other driver a friendly wave.
There are three of us at work with winter tyres fitted, and we're all going on about them with evangelical zeal. Katie only has the front pair as well, and is completely happy. Bryn has a set of four because his garage was runnnig a special offer of 3 for the price of 2, so he decided just to pay for one extra tyre and get the set. He says he still gets a bit of slide on ice, but on snow he has magnificent traction.
Fiona, in a Golf with summer tyres, isn't here yet....
Rolfe.
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You should all count yourselves lucky!!! i am driving around with no esp/abs/tc at all at the moment :cry:
Great for when the roads are dry on a nice crisp day like to day though :evil:
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What did you have fitted again, Hankook Ice Bear 440's? Certainly not the cheapest tyre out there and they get a decent review.
That's what a guy at work has on his car. His, nearly new, C5 came with them on. He would not have spent the money on them otherwise. I'll have to ask him if he would consider getting them again.
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Just back from getting the 4 Hankook Ice Bear 440's fitted on my wifes car and they are great, as good as the Kuhmo KW27's fitted on my Golf. £75 each from a local tyre shop fitted onto the steel wheels I sourced and swapped over for me as well. Can't complain! Tyre shop was full of customers all getting 2 winter tyres fitted to their drive wheels. Tyre guy was saying as soon as they get them in, winter tyres are selling out.
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I'd get my ABS out in the snow, but its just too bloody cold to take my shirt off.
I'm here all week.
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(http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss227/simonpolly/tumbleweed.jpg)
:grin:
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I have used hankook tyres on the mk1 for many years since prob the mid 90s without any problems im actually a fan of them.
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@Rolfe - judging from the "other thread" - you won't be suitably convinced by reading, watching or listening to what anyone has to say. Don't take that offensively, but the majority of your argument was about first hand experience.
The only way you'll know for sure is to do some tests yourself. Go into a big empty car park, mark some lines in the snow and do your own testing.
Ps. Regarding your tyre-fitter, I'd rather be embarrassed asking for a new set, than involved in a crash wishing I had
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You know what? It was once said that it was theoretically impossible for a bumble bee to be able to fly. The thing is, nobody told the bumble bees, and they went right on flying. It was recognised that the theory required some adjustment.
There was a thread referenced in another forum, quite a lengthy thing, which discussed the question of using two winter tyres only. I read the lot, twice. It went exactly the same way as the saner bits of the threads here. People with their heads up their backsides pontificating that any car thus equipped would be turned into a dangerous, oversteering monster, and people who had run their cars like that for years with no trouble at all pointing out that an ounce of practical experience trumps a ton of theory any time. The latter group pointed out that the two-tyre-only option is particularly common in the USA, despite the propensity of Merikans to sue at the drop of a hat.
What was conspicuous by its absence was any account of a single incident apparently caused by that tyre set-up - nothing from anyone's personal experience, and no links to any news reports. Neither was there any link to any accident statistics identifying this set-up as an accident risk. And it also appears that no country where winter tyres are optional has banned a two-tyre set-up for safety or any other reasons. Nothing but repeated links to the same contrived videos of cars being driven at ridiculous speeds on an ice rink, with the main culprit having had its ABS disabled for greater effect.
So I'm thinking that seeing the bumble bee flying is trumping the theory here.
Several points have emerged, certainly. Note that this discussion is relating to the car we're talking about here, the MkVI Golf GTi. That means it has front-wheel-drive, ABS, and ESP.
- Four winter tyres are better than two
- Two winter tyres are better than four summer tyres
- If you want to see any benefit at all from these two tyres, put them on the front wheels
- This set-up will deliver all the desired benefits of winter tyres as regards not getting stuck and being able to climb hills
- Driven sensibly, with ABS and ESP, this set-up is acceptably safe, and certainly safer than four summer tyres
This seems to be reality, supported by the experience of people who have used this set-up. Actual, practical real-life evidence of the set-up causing safety issues seems to be on a par with examples of bumble bees that can't fly.
Rolfe.
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Thus proving my point, why are you asking? Just go and test it for yourself - as you don't believe "theory"
And as with much of the internet, the <20 people that have taken part in these "discussions" are hardly representative of the majority, let alone an entire country or continent!
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Rolfe you have mentioned the Americans and their keenness to sue on numerous occasions but who would they be suing?
As the owners of their own cars they would have made that choice to have just 2 winter tyres.
If they were involved in an accident their insurance would pick up the tab so I'm unclear who would be suing who?
I've not got winter tyres but I'm certainly in the camp that 2 would surely be better than none. Especially if you knew the constraints of those tyres and drove within certain parameters.
I can see how some folk that put 2 winter tyres on would think they could drive normally i.e. speed etc but I think if you use your common sense, it allows you to go about your normal daily activities rather than being stuck in the house waiting till the snow disappears.
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Oh, it was just that some people were putting forward the position that having four summer tyres or four winter tyres would see you safe from liability for an accident, because they were "matched" (even if the summer tyres were being operated well outside their recommended temperature range), while having unmatched tyres would leave you open to being sued for running a dangerous car.
No I didn't really understand it either.
Rolfe.
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Thus proving my point, why are you asking? Just go and test it for yourself - as you don't believe "theory"
And as with much of the internet, the <20 people that have taken part in these "discussions" are hardly representative of the majority, let alone an entire country or continent!
Yeah, I did try it, Tuesday. Braked hard on a level, snow-covered road, from about 15 mph.
The car just stopped. Nothing unusual about it.
Rolfe.
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Apparently, if you oversteered into someone you'd be liable because you'd deliberately made your car unstable by fitting winter tyres to the front...whereas fitting them to the rear, and understeering into someone was perfectly acceptable because you were in control of a stable car.
Or some other such bo11ocks.
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Apparently, if you oversteered into someone you'd be liable because you'd deliberately made your car unstable by fitting winter tyres to the front...whereas fitting them to the rear, and understeering into someone was perfectly acceptable because you were in control of a stable car.
Or some other such bo11ocks.
I dont think it matters if your tyres are on your head... if you hit someone then you are most likely liable.
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Apparently, if you oversteered into someone you'd be liable because you'd deliberately made your car unstable by fitting winter tyres to the front...whereas fitting them to the rear, and understeering into someone was perfectly acceptable because you were in control of a stable car.
Or some other such bo11ocks.
I dont think it matters if your tyres are on your head... if you hit someone then you are most likely liable.
:grin:
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I dont think it matters if your tyres are on your head... if you hit someone then you are most likely liable.
I have been reliably informed that if I hit another car (pedancit hat on) whilst driving my car...with winter tyres on the back but not the front, I have not diliberately de-stabilised my vehicle and as such am not liable.
Even though I'll lose my NCD and get f**ked my my insurance company.
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I dont think it matters if your tyres are on your head... if you hit someone then you are most likely liable.
I have been reliably informed that if I hit another car (pedancit hat on) whilst driving my car...with winter tyres on the back but not the front, I have not diliberately de-stabilised my vehicle and as such am not liable.
Even though I'll lose my NCD and get f**ked my my insurance company.
I am quite sure you would still be liable... if you dont leave enough of a gap for you to stop, then its your fault. I think insurance companies would look into greater detail if somthing went drastically wrong anyway, so it probably wouldnt matter in any case. :undecided:
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I am quite sure you would still be liable... if you dont leave enough of a gap for you to stop, then its your fault. I think insurance companies would look into greater detail if somthing went drastically wrong anyway, so it probably wouldnt matter in any case. :undecided:
Indeed you would...something lost in translation with my previous posts...
I was merely taking the micky out of out Winter Tyre legislation expert Ben, wo tried to say if you hit someone with winter tyres on the front only you'd be liable, but if they were on the back only you wouldn't.
It's palinly stupid...if you hit ANYONE it's your failt.
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That isn't remotely what I said, for an almost 40 year old bloke - you act like an infant.
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And there was me hoping we could avoid getting dragged into the insane proposition of putting your only pair of winter tyres on the rear wheels of your front-wheel-drive car.
Tell you what, I'd like to see how anyone who was daft enough to do that would have been getting on round here the past week or two! :rolleyes:
Rolfe.
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And there was me hoping we could avoid getting dragged into the insane proposition of putting your only pair of winter tyres on the rear wheels of your front-wheel-drive car.
Tell you what, I'd like to see how anyone who was daft enough to do that would have been getting on round here the past week or two! :rolleyes:
Rolfe.
I've not said a thing :lipsrsealed: I made my point on the other thread, little point re-hashing things.
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That isn't remotely what I said, for an almost 40 year old bloke - you act like an infant.
Read it again...it is EXACTLY what you said.
For someone who posts so much 'valuable information' you sure can be an asshole.
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I've not said a thing :lipsrsealed: I made my point on the other thread, little point re-hashing things.
If you said your piece in the last thread, why do you insist in spoiling this one as well?
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I've not said a thing :lipsrsealed: I made my point on the other thread, little point re-hashing things.
I think you have agreed with yourself that 'silence is golden'. Please go forth and multiply on another forum as you are not wanted here.
Do you get the feeling that you are disliked?
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Do you get the feeling that you are disliked?
Not really. Just a few MK6 children with attitude problems.
But if someone references me, with false information, I'll be sure to correct them. Much in the same way that if someone posts something dangerous to other readers, I'll be sure to correct them too.
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Much in the same way that if someone posts something dangerous to other readers, I'll be sure to correct them too.
Are you the forum health and safety adviser then? :grin:
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Much in the same way that if someone posts something dangerous to other readers, I'll be sure to correct them too.
Are you the forum health and safety adviser then? :grin:
Sure, why not ;) Would that make Rolfe and am1w the forum antagonisers?
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Much in the same way that if someone posts something dangerous to other readers, I'll be sure to correct them too.
Are you the forum health and safety adviser then? :grin:
Sure, why not ;) Would that make Rolfe and am1w the forum antagonisers antagonists?
Ah, he's really alluding to himself again!
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Much in the same way that if someone posts something dangerous to other readers, I'll be sure to correct them too.
Are you the forum health and safety adviser then? :grin:
Sure, why not ;) Would that make Rolfe and am1w the forum antagonisers?
What an annoying tw*t !
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He even managed to coin a new word - antagonisers! :rolleyes:
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Yawn.
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Yawn.
I know the feeling...usually after reading your preaching posts.
Yet you still come back?
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It would be rude not to once invited ;)
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Yawn.
I know the feeling...usually after reading your preaching posts.
Yet you still come back?
He is an irritant like an obcscene blind boil sorely in need of lancing.
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OK, what's wrong with this, then? Oversteer heaven, if they can get it to move?
(http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu359/rjwojcik/47636_10150356873160235_571170234_16333932_8089359_n.jpg)
:laugh:
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BMW drivers :grin:
SLOB number plate :grin:
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Didn't notice that :grin:
Oi, I've got a beemer! :tongue:
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Didn't notice that :grin:
Oi, I've got a beemer! :tongue:
Ah ha. Good to know all is well at last. :wink:
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Cheers Mate, it's an old one that we've had since 2005 - a 530d touring but does the job carrying mountain bikes, camping gear, rubbish tip trips, etc... Got a job in London now, head down Monday morning (to Euston) and go home Friday night. I do keep an eye out for a red GTI when I'm on the Euston Road, normally around 8 am. If you see a mad man waving at you frantically with a laptop bag then it could be me. :smiley:
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Cheers Mate, it's an old one that we've had since 2005 - a 530d touring but does the job carrying mountain bikes, camping gear, rubbish tip trips, etc... Got a job in London now, head down Monday morning (to Euston) and go home Friday night. I do keep an eye out for a red GTI when I'm on the Euston Road, normally around 8 am. If you see a mad man waving at you frantically with a laptop bag then it could be me. :smiley:
I work Kings Cross. I pass Euston around 8.30 am every day. PM me your details again. :wink:
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OK, what's wrong with this, then? Oversteer heaven, if they can get it to move?
pardon me if i'm pointing out something that may be obvious to somebody else.... but my understanding is that BMW cars are all rear-wheel drive. thus if snow chains are put on front non-drive wheels only, it presumably means the rear drive wheels will not have as much grip to supply forward motion (or indeed backwards) to the vehicle. and from the angle the photo was taken, it appears that it is an uphill incline?
so does that car actually move on that snow?
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pardon me if i'm pointing out something that may be obvious to somebody else.... but my understanding is that BMW cars are all rear-wheel drive. thus if snow chains are put on front non-drive wheels only, it presumably means the rear drive wheels will not have as much grip to supply forward motion (or indeed backwards) to the vehicle. and from the angle the photo was taken, it appears that it is an uphill incline?
so does that car actually move on that snow?
LMFAO!
I am having a bit of de ja vu.
Evil one, remember what transpired on the 'Winter Tyres' thread when you put an 'innocent' question? :grin:
You, my dear, are one class act! :wink:
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It's a fair question. As far as I know, you put the chains, snow socks, whatever, on the drive wheels. Front or back. Then, if you have a RWD, you'll find you can't steer it.
So what do you do?
Rolfe.
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It's a fair question. As far as I know, you put the chains, snow socks, whatever, on the drive wheels. Front or back. Then, if you have a RWD, you'll find you can't steer it.
So what do you do?
Rolfe.
Exercise your freedom of choice and put them wherever you feel is best for what you want to achieve (don't tell Ben though) :grin:
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Actually, if only had two tyres, socks, etc... how about... putting one one the front and one on the rear? :laugh:
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Actually, if only had two tyres, socks, etc... how about... putting one one the front and one on the rear? :laugh:
that may make some of our dizzy members even more dizzy i suspect!
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I just love this lateral thinking.
But then you have to decide if you want to go sideways to the right or to the left, in circular motion clockwise or anti-clockwise or any-which-way. Hang on, I think it's best to fit.....? HEALP!!!
Roll-on spring and summer. :grin:
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Just use good old common sense rather than taking the advice of
Ben idiots. :grin:
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Yep, I'm the idiot, me along with the rest of the world.
Keep up the "good tyres up front" advice, I'm sure that will work out really well for you ;)
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Working just peachy, I have to say.
If I'd had the winter tyres on the back, I wouldn't have moved for several days. And no doubt sitting in the garage is the safest place for a car at any time, but it kind of defeats the purpose, as I see it.
I'm still waiting for the accident statistics showing that winter tyres on the front drive wheels only makes a car more likely to be involved in an accident. Or the country which has banned the practice as unsafe.
You know, that pesky evidence part.
Rolfe.
Oh yes, and quit with the "good tyres" part. I haven't heard anyone arguing against that basic piece of advice, for what it's worth. Your mistake seems to have been to think you can translate that to the fitting of winter tyres without actually thinking about it. It doesn't work that way when the purpose of the exercise is entirely different.
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Hi Rolfe
He's wrong, he knows it but is a wind up merchant looking for an argument.
Best to ignore.
Still trying to plug his advert for the GTi with yellow leather seats.......
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:evil:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/ukkatanapics/troll.jpg)
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OK, OK, I'm sorry. I won't do it again. :embarassed:
Rolfe.
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Who is the troll exactly - the person who keeps countlessly being named and drawn back in to your ridiculous discussion - or those doing the naming? You'll notice I'm only actually posting if you keep mentioning me ...
He's wrong, he knows it but is a wind up merchant looking for an argument.
PM me if you like - but explain how I am wrong exactly?
What I've said, repeatedly, is that ...
Better tyres go on the rear - regardless of the time of year
... a view, shared by the entire world - apart from about 6 morons in the MK6 section ...
http://kevinxie.posterous.com/new-tires-at-rear-not-front-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPYBArQQVAE
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http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/care/
When radial tires are used with bias or bias belted tires on the same car, the radials must always be placed on the rear axle. Never mix radial and bias-ply tires on the same axle. When you select a pair of replacement tires in the same size and construction as those on the car, we recommend you put them on the rear axle. A single new tire should be paired on the rear axle with the tire having the most tread depth of the other three.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/4243992
Some tire stores insist on installing two new tires on the rear wheels of vehicles when the fronts are worn, and moving the old rear tires to the front--much to the dismay of many customers who want the new tires on the front. So, who's right?
Actually, I agree with the stores, as do the tire companies. Here's why: In dry, clear weather it really doesn't make much difference. But if the road is wet, the new, full-treaded tires are less likely to lose traction than the partly worn ones. If you're hauling ants down the road and come to a wet curve, the full-treaded tires on the rear will stay behind you, where they belong.
If the rear tires have less tread, there's a greater chance that they will slip, putting your rear bumper into the ditch. Okay, if the front tires skid, there's the chance you might go off the road, too--but at least it'll be headfirst, where your seatbelts and airbags offer more protection.
http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/
Most drivers think that new tyres should be fitted to the front wheels...
A car tyre is often a distress purchase, but even when replacing one in the course of normal vehicle maintenance, it has long been believed that the new tyres should be fitted on the front wheels. Research by TyreSafe, Britain’s foremost tyre safety organisation, has indicated that over 50% of motorists believe this to be the case and 30% of motorists did not know.
However, recent demonstrations have indicated that it is more beneficial to fit the new rubber to the rear wheels, regardless of whether the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive. Industry research suggests that if the new tyres are fitted to the rear wheels, water on the road surface is better dispersed, which improves straight line braking ability. Conversely, if the rear track is fitted with part worn tyres, the car often has a dangerous tendency to oversteer.
As the majority of the cars on the road are front wheel drive, it seems to make sense to have the new tyres up front. The demonstrations also showed that there is often a greater loss of control when a rear tyre suffers a puncture, so in fact it makes greater sense to fit the fresh, less vulnerable rubber to the rear wheels.
Rear tyres are subject to relatively low wear rates as well, meaning that the new tyres will have a longer lifespan on the back rims. Fitting new tyres to the rear and moving part worn rubber to the front each time also means that the rear tyres will be less prone to age-related deterioration from prolonged exposure.
http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php
We recommend that you use newer tyres for the rear set, for extra safety in unforeseen or difficult situations (emergency braking, tight bends etc) particularly on wet surfaces. Numerous tests have shown that it is easier to control the front wheels than those at the rear. Front tyres generally wear quicker than those fitted at the rear, particularly on front wheel drive cars, which are currently in the majority.
New tyres fitted in front:
• The behavior of the car will change, because the front / rear balance will be reversed. The driver, used to a car with less grip at the front, will therefore be taken unawares.
• On a slippery road, the rear will lose traction before the front of the vehicle.
The driver will have no chance of controlling the rear, and will be tempted to accelerate further, which will amplify the spin effect. Only an experienced driver will be able to recover from this dangerous situation.
New tyres fitted at the back:
• The handling of the vehicle will be similar to that known by the driver before the tyre change, because the traction balance will be the same.
• Rear traction will be better, and the driver will be able to control and steer their vehicle without a problem by decelerating and turning the steering wheel in the direction of the bend.
That's why we advise you to reduce the risks you take by fitting new or less worn tyres at the rear of the vehicle for:
• better grip on bends
• extra safety.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
New tyres to the front or rear?
Check the car handbook first as some vehicle manufacturers give specific advice on this. If there is no information in the handbook, then it's good practice for safety to fit the best/newest tyres on the rear – in wet conditions, this favours understeer rather than oversteer. So if you have the front tyres renewed it's best to have the rear ones moved to the front and the new tyres fitted to the rear.
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http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52
Where to Install New Pairs of Tires?
Most vehicles are equipped with the same size tire at every wheel position. Ideally all of these tires should also be of the same type and design, have the same tread depth and be inflated to the pressures specified by the vehicle placard or owner's manual. This combination best retains the handling balance engineered into the vehicle by its manufacturer.
However due to a front-wheel drive vehicle’s front tires' responsibility for transmitting acceleration, steering and most of the braking forces, it's normal for them to wear faster than rear tires. Therefore if the tires aren't rotated on a regular basis, tires will typically wear out in pairs rather than in sets. And if the tires aren't rotated at all, it's likely that the rear tires will still have about 1/2 of their original tread depth remaining when the front tires are completely worn out.
Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However in this case, intuition isn't right...and following it can be downright dangerous.
When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. The reason is because new tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.
Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire's ability to resist hydroplaning.
Exactly when hydroplaning occurs is the result of a combination of elements including water depth, vehicle weight and speed, as well as tire size, air pressure, tread design and tread depth. A lightweight vehicle with wide, worn, underinflated tires in a heavy downpour will hydroplane at lower speeds than a heavyweight vehicle equipped with new, narrow, properly inflated tires in drizzling rain.
If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.
However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to oversteer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.
Experience
Members of Tire Rack team had the chance to experience this phenomenon at Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds. Participants were allowed to drive around a large radius, wet curve in vehicles fitted with tires of different tread depths -- one vehicle with new tires on the rear and half-worn tires on the front and the other with the new tires in the front and half-worn tires on the rear.
It didn't take long for this hands-on experience to confirm that the "proving grounds" name for the facility was correct. The ability to sense and control predictable understeer with the new tires on the rear and the helplessness in trying to control the surprising oversteer with the new tires on the front was emphatically proven.
And even though our drivers had the advantage of knowing we were going to be challenged to maintain car control, spinouts became common during our laps in the car with the new tires on the front and the worn tires on the rear. Michelin advises us that almost every driver spins out at least once when participating in this demonstration!
Experiencing this phenomenon in the safe, controlled conditions of Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds rather than in traffic on an Interstate ramp in a rainstorm is definitely preferred!
Recommendations
Tires should be serviced periodically following the rotation patterns provided in the vehicle's owner's manual or as established by the industry to help enhance wear quality and equalize front-to-rear and side-to-side wear rates. The minor differences in tread depth between tires that might be encountered immediately after periodic tire rotations at 5,000-7,500 mile intervals won’t upset the vehicle's hydroplaning balance and should not preclude rotating tires. For that matter, any differences in wear rates actually indicate that tire rotations should be done more frequently. Ideally tires should be replaced in complete sets. However when tires are replaced in pairs, the new pair of tires (assuming the vehicle is equipped with the same size tires all of the way around) should always be installed on the rear axle and the existing partially worn tires moved to the front axle.
While insufficient tire rotation intervals and/or out-of-adjustment wheel alignment angles often caused the differences in front-to-rear and side-to-side tire wear rates in the first place, the need to keep deeper treaded tires on the rear axle to resist oversteer conditions caused by wet road hydroplaning is important. Unfortunately this precludes the future possibility of ever rotating tires.
Once a pair of tires has been installed, the only way to escape being forced to drive on mismatched tires continually is to install a complete set of new tires (especially on front-wheel drive vehicles).
http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616&lang=EN
Fitting new or least-worn tyres at the rear
If you are only changing two tyres out of four, whether your vehicle has front- or rear-wheel drive, we recommend fitting the newest tyres on the rear axle. This will give you greater safety in the event of unexpected and difficult situations (emergency braking, tight bends, etc..) especially in the wet. The front tyres generally wear quicker than the rear, especially with front-wheel drive (which applies to the majority of vehicles nowadays). Numerous tests have demonstrated that it is easier to control the front axle than the rear.
This is why KLEBER advise you to fit the new or least worn tyres on the rear axle for :
better grip when cornering
greater safety.
http://www.karacare.co.uk/tyres.html
The beginning of movement and acceleration of any vehicle in snow, ice and other adverse cold weather conditions is highly dependent on the traction qualities of the tyres on the driving axle. The controlled handling and braking of a vehicle after it is in motion in adverse weather conditions, however, is highly dependent on the traction of the rear tyres. Consequently, the rear tyres of any vehicle must have equal or higher traction capabilities than the front tyres for safe vehicle operation.
Because of the higher traction qualities of studded snow tyres under most winter weather conditions, installation of only two studded snow tyres on the front of any vehicle (especially front wheel drive vehicles) without two studded snow tyres on the rear can cause adverse (unsafe) handling characteristics. Consult tyre manufacturer for correct stud size. If you sell and/or install studded snow tyres on vehicles you must follow the procedures listed below:
Only new tyres should be fitted with studs. Never insert studs in a used tyre (even if only slightly used).
Without studded snow tyres on the rear, which have the same traction qualities as the studded front tyres, adverse (unsafe) handling and braking characteristics are introduced into the vehicle. This may result in loss of vehicle control, which could cause serious injury or death.
If studded snow tyres are installed on only the rear of any vehicle, it is recommended (but not required) that they be installed on the front. Only if studded tyres are installed on all wheel positions of a vehicle will optimum handling characteristics be achieved
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'It's best if you buy only two winter tyres to put one on the font left wheel and keep the other in the boot as a spare.
This avoids traction issues like the problem of having to drive in a straight line in snow or ice'
B L
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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The MRSA is back. :sick:
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Oh, I know I promised, but....
I just counted. Seven quotes about how it's preferable to put new tyres on the rear if replacing only a pair of a set. Absolutely bugger-all to do with fitting a pair of winter tyres to provide traction to stop you getting stuck in the snow.
Then one quote specifically about studded tyres. And that one is pushing the "you should have them on all four wheels" line. Which again nobody ever disputed.
Still waiting for the accident statistics showing that vehicles with front-only winter tyres are more likely to be involved in accidents. And for the country that has banned the practice as unsafe. Judging by the utterly lame array of quotes you just posted, not one of which is even relevant to the discussion, I'm guessing you don't have any.
I repeat. We know that fitting only two winter tyres is not ideal We know that greater care has to be taken when driving such a set-up compared to fitting a full set. We know that braking distance will be longer than with a full set, and that the rear may drift out if a corner is taken too fast. We know that the ESP will tend to prevent the rear overtaking the front when braking though. So we're being reasonably careful, and making progress.
We also know that fitting a pair of winter tyres to the rear of a front-wheel-drive car would be a complete waste of money, as the basic problem of getting stuck in the snow would not be solved.
Rolfe.
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Good old Ben...
Lots more internet quoting - little practical expreience.
Lots more youTube video linking...as we all know ther is never anything but the truth on youTube.
And once again ignoring the specific issue of snow traction (you know, actaully being able to move in a forwards direction) or reference to the standard fitted ESP on Mk6 GTIs...maybe because he doesn't own one.
I know many of the 'old folks' up in the north of Scotland (where it actually snows a lot...unlike the internet) have been running winter tyres on the front of their FWD cars for the last 10 years to my knowledge (until recently on cars with no ESP) and they've been getting to their work and home with no madly oversteering incidents/accidents.
These aren't internet examples or racing drivers - just normal people - and I find it hard to believe they are just the luckiest people on the planet.
So the oversteer issues out internet expert warns us of are surely not as bad as he's making on.
I'm bored with it all now... :rolleyes:
I also notice that lots of the 'evidence' is from either tyre manufacturers, tyre sellers or organisations funded by the tyre industry...
Cynical, me? Surely not...
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Its not about them anyway Gizzy, its about your safety and thats all that matters :wink:
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There has been a ruckus and I wasnt involved ?
Damn you all, damn you all to hell.
(http://www.ballardian.com/images/statue_planet.jpg)
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I know many of the 'old folks' up in the north of Scotland (where it actually snows a lot...unlike the internet) have been running winter tyres on the front of their FWD cars for the last 10 years to my knowledge (until recently on cars with no ESP) and they've been getting to their work and home with no madly oversteering incidents/accidents.
These aren't internet examples or racing drivers - just normal people - and I find it hard to believe they are just the luckiest people on the planet.
So the oversteer issues out internet expert warns us of are surely not as bad as he's making on.
That was the obvious take-home message from the thread on the other (non-WV) forum linked to earlier. Several internet pundits shouting about oversteer and dangerous instability with front-only winters, apparently on the basis of zero practical experience, and a whole bunch of people who'd been running their cars like that for years without any problems. It was pointed out in that thread that it's common practice in the USA.
And nobody has any accident statistics to show it's particularly unsafe. And nobody seems to have banned it, either.
I also notice that lots of the 'evidence' is from either tyre manufacturers, tyre sellers or organisations funded by the tyre industry...
Cynical, me? Surely not...
Yeah, I kinda noticed that too....
It seems that running with only a pair on the front of a front-wheel-drive (or even a 4WD I gather) is common, and known to work fine so long as nobody behaves like an idiot. Countries where winter tyres are mandatory obviously specify doing all four wheels, and it seems that the tyre manufacturers would like everybody else to do the same and are running a bit of a scare campaign.
I'm sure it's not totally unjustified. There are going to be situations where having all four tyres gives you just the advantage you need. But to carry on about dangerous instability and snap oversteer is way over the top.
To suggest that you're better off not fitting winter tyres at all than doing just the front is insane, and to suggest that if you only have two such tyres they should go on the rear (of a VW Golf GTi Mk VI, which is after all what we're talking about) is men in white jackets territory.
By the way I'm writing this at work, having made it in with no drama at all (I didn't even dig my drive, just drove over it) despite white-out conditions.
The bit I can't understand is why the tyre manufacturers haven't been pushing the benefits of winter tyres on us since at least this time last year. The number of sales they could have had if they'd just geared up and created the demand would have been phenomenal. As it is, they're losing out because they're out of stock. Against this background, propaganda to persuade people to fit four tyres seems a bit redundant.
Rolfe.
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My point, was and never has been about getting stuck in the snow. Look back to my VERY FIRST comment, all I did was answer someone's question...
is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only
The answer is, and always will be, no.
When you asked,
for front-end traction, is it more sensible to fit winters on the front or rear
I, without argument or hesitation answered, yes - its obvious on a FWD car. But it will unbalance the stability of the car.
I honestly thought you lot were past this when the last thread was closed, I didn't bring the last (pointless) debate into this thread - you lot did. Your OP asked, what difference does ABS make in the snow ... to which I very politely replied ...
@Rolfe - judging from the "other thread" - you won't be suitably convinced by reading, watching or listening to what anyone has to say. Don't take that offensively, but the majority of your argument was about first hand experience.
The only way you'll know for sure is to do some tests yourself. Go into a big empty car park, mark some lines in the snow and do your own testing.
Ps. Regarding your tyre-fitter, I'd rather be embarrassed asking for a new set, than involved in a crash wishing I had
Its clear that you believe that all content posted on the internet is an apparent marketing campaign and holds no water, so don't believe it, don't read it, and stop asking other people on the internet the same question, when you refuse to hear anything but the answer you have already decided is correct.
My recommendation to "test for yourself" - wasn't my opinion, wasn't me preaching, wasn't me quoting, but merely telling the OP that if they want to know, go and find out - because no number of YouTube videos or articles that anyone links to is apparently "true".
And I'll steer clear of the MK6 section, so long as people don't keep saying I've said things, which I clearly haven't - or drawing me back in to the conversation.
Don't blame me for posting, blame yourself for keep inviting me back to the discussion.
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is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only
The answer is, and always will be, no.
Except, the answer seems to be yes, it's common practice. So long as you realise the car has to be driven in the full realisation that you still have summer tyres on the rear - so take corners within the limits of the grip of the summer tyres, and bear in mind that braking distance, though markedly better than with summer tyres all round, will not be as good as with four winters.
If you want to throw your car around like a lunatic in the snow, fit four winter tyres. If you're ultra-safety-conscious, fit four winter tyres. But if your main object is to get the traction you need not to get stuck and to be able to take snowy hills without wheelspin, and you're prepared to drive within the limits of the set-up, two front winter tyres is a perfectly reasonable proposition. Lots of people do it, and don't seem to be unduly troubling the scorer in the accident statistics.
Fitting two will always be better than none at all, especially in a car with ESP. And fitting the two you have on the back would be pointless nonsense, which even Ben is backtracking on now, although he repeatedly and pointedly implied that was the better option earlier.
And yes, I have tried it. The car is fine braking with the two front tyres, and stops much sooner and in much better order than it would have done with the summer tyres on, though I'm perfectly prepared to believe it would stop even sooner with all four winter tyres. I'm more concerned with cornering performance, but I've got more sense than to take corners at any speed at all in the snow.
When I was doing my research lab work, I had a quote inside my lab book. "If it happens, it must be possible." Meaning, that theory ain't worth a damn if it's contradicted by practical observation. Theory used to declare that a bumble bee can't fly. So which is it? Are bumble bees a figment of the imagination, or is it possible the theory wasn't quite right somewhere?
Rolfe.
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Its not about them anyway Gizzy, its about your safety and thats all that matters :wink:
Never a truer word spoken Steve of course you are so right - stuff the lot of em, at least I wont be upside down in some ditch :grin: Thanks mate.
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There has been a ruckus and I wasnt involved ?
Damn you all, damn you all to hell.
(http://www.ballardian.com/images/statue_planet.jpg)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only
The answer is, and always will be, no.
Except, the answer seems to be yes, it's common practice. So long as you realise the car has to be driven in the full realisation that you still have summer tyres on the rear - so take corners within the limits of the grip of the summer tyres, and bear in mind that braking distance, though markedly better than with summer tyres all round, will not be as good as with four winters.
If you want to throw your car around like a lunatic in the snow, fit four winter tyres. If you're ultra-safety-conscious, fit four winter tyres. But if your main object is to get the traction you need not to get stuck and to be able to take snowy hills without wheelspin, and you're prepared to drive within the limits of the set-up, two front winter tyres is a perfectly reasonable proposition. Lots of people do it, and don't seem to be unduly troubling the scorer in the accident statistics.
Fitting two will always be better than none at all, especially in a car with ESP. And fitting the two you have on the back would be pointless nonsense, which even Ben is backtracking on now, although he repeatedly and pointedly implied that was the better option earlier.
And yes, I have tried it. The car is fine braking with the two front tyres, and stops much sooner and in much better order than it would have done with the summer tyres on, though I'm perfectly prepared to believe it would stop even sooner with all four winter tyres. I'm more concerned with cornering performance, but I've got more sense than to take corners at any speed at all in the snow.
When I was doing my research lab work, I had a quote inside my lab book. "If it happens, it must be possible." Meaning, that theory ain't worth a damn if it's contradicted by practical observation. Theory used to declare that a bumble bee can't fly. So which is it? Are bumble bees a figment of the imagination, or is it possible the theory wasn't quite right somewhere?
Rolfe.
Then surely you have the answer you want ...
Oh and I'm not backtracking - I think you've mis-understood most/all of what I have written.
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Listen fcukwit Ben.
I'll summerise:
Rolfe puts her two better tyres, which happen to be winter ones, on the front axel of her FWD car so that she can drive the damn thing in the snow by moving forward.
You ponificate that the two better tyres, which in her case happen to be winter ones, should ideally be put on the rear axel of her FWD car for safety and handling issues. Yes, it will be much safer as her car won't move forward in the snow due to lack of traction and thus there will be no handling or safety issues.
We all agree that four winter tyres would be best.
You are, as of now, un-invited.
GOODBYE.
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Good lord you lot are mental! :laugh:
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Good lord you lot are mental! :laugh:
If you can't beat us, join us.
Thanks for watching. :smiley:
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Un-invite this (http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/1m38742kj1jp7/7l6orf/emoticon-0173-middlefinger.png)
Ben + the rest of the world's method = uncompromised stability
Rolfe + am1w's method = unbalanced car, much higher risk of oversteer
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Un-invite this (http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/1m38742kj1jp7/7l6orf/emoticon-0173-middlefinger.png)
Ben + the rest of the world's method = uncompromised stability
Rolfe + am1w's method = unbalanced car, much higher risk of oversteer
Listen fcukwit AGAIN.
My method has always been FOUR winter tyres.
Now fcuk off!
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Then what are you arguing for?
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Then what are you arguing for?
Because I despise you.
Now fcuk off again.
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Oh no, I was thinking of sticking around in the MK6 section - especially how civil and welcoming you have been ;)
All the arguing, its like family, although - with the swearing, you're starting to come across as the drunken mental uncle.
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Ben for MK6 board mod!! :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Oh no, I was thinking of sticking around in the MK6 section - especially how civil and welcoming you have been ;)
All the arguing, its like family, although - with the swearing, you're starting to come across as the drunken mental uncle.
You know your family best, fcukwit.
Go away as you are getting boring and you are not liked, stupid boy.
Hopefully you'll sell your adverised piece of garbage and FCUCK OFF FINALLY.
I'll treat you with untter contempt and abuse you as best I can.
However, I am done with you for today.
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I agree with Ben with the fact that if you have only 1 pair of winter tyres then I'd stick them on the back. I rather have a f*ck load of understeer instead of a f*ck load of oversteer. Understeer is FAR safer than oversteer. The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow, where as at the rear, on summer tyres, it'll be like watching bambi dance on ice.
PS: Watch videos from major tyre manufacturers about where to put 2 new tyres. They all choose the back for the reasons I said, nevermind what car it is or where the drive goes to.
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(http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif)
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(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-rabbit-eats-thread.jpg)
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
The amazing thing is, Kwikfit, in my area, still have stock of Conti 830Ps in 17" and 18".
£163 a corner for 18", fitted.
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Oh no, I was thinking of sticking around in the MK6 section - especially how civil and welcoming you have been ;)
All the arguing, its like family, although - with the swearing, you're starting to come across as the drunken mental uncle.
You know your family best, fcukwit.
Go away as you are getting boring and you are not liked, stupid boy.
Hopefully you'll sell your adverised piece of garbage and FCUCK OFF FINALLY.
I'll treat you with untter contempt and abuse you as best I can.
However, I am done with you for today.
You know, for someone who writes and gives the illusion to be so "upper class" and priviledged to own their posh golf gti, you are a childish individual when someone presents a well rounded arguement in "your" section.
Oh and,
I'll treat you with untter contempt and abuse you as best I can.
that's a classy piece of literature you have just scribed there.
Honestly, he is "un-invited"? Behave, you are no more important than the rest of us.
Going by your response, it might be an idea to find yourself a new "home"
(http://images.jkcreativephotography.com/MotivationalPosters/e-thug.jpg)
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E-THUG:
I am so pleased you are so understanding and considered it classy.
I am even more pleased I sang from your hymn sheet.
I aim to please as much as possible when necessary. :wink:
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Is it too late to change the vote on most likely to get banned? :laugh: :laugh:
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Is it too late to change the vote on most likely to get banned? :laugh: :laugh:
Infamy, infamy, you've all got it in for me. :laugh:
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
The amazing thing is, Kwikfit, in my area, still have stock of Conti 830Ps in 17" and 18".
£163 a corner for 18", fitted.
Is that on the website or do they actually have them?
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
I agree I thought £600 for 4 corners was quite a fair figure, they're probably just jealous :evil:
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MyTyres still seem to have loads for sale (albeit I've only been looking at 15's) @ about £60 ea. for something half decent (Snowtrak3's), well worth it in my opinion :)
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GolfTi:
Not on their website.
But available when I rang them today.
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GolfTi:
Not on their website.
But available when I rang them today.
Buy as many as you can and then sell them on next week for a healthy profit :laugh: :laugh:
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
I agree I thought £600 for 4 corners was quite a fair figure, they're probably just jealous :evil:
Amanda: How are the winter ware/wear? I bet you are very pleased. :smiley:
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GolfTi:
Not on their website.
But available when I rang them today.
Buy as many as you can and then sell them on next week for a healthy profit :laugh: :laugh:
Where the hell do I store them? That's the problem. :wink:
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MyTyres still seem to have loads for sale (albeit I've only been looking at 15's) @ about £60 ea. for something half decent (Snowtrak3's), well worth it in my opinion :)
mytyres are so overpriced now for Continental 830Ps. £238 per corner for 18" fitted. :sick:
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Kwik fit were the cheapest online for me.
They treated my monzas with the utmost respect and are now storing the summer Bridgestones until March/April.
What more can you ask for?
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Kwik fit were the cheapest online for me.
They treated my monzas with the utmost respect and are now storing the summer Bridgestones until March/April.
What more can you ask for?
You are the man who told us ages ago about this.
Right, right and right again. Reminds me of just two winter tyres, one on the front and one on the back. :evil: :grin: :wink:
Seriously, really amazing value for this time of the year.
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Rolfe:
Sorry for the hijack.
Got a bit carried away. Not good for my heart. :smiley:
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Kwik fit were the cheapest online for me.
They treated my monzas with the utmost respect and are now storing the summer Bridgestones until March/April.
What more can you ask for?
You are the man who told us ages ago about this.
Right, right and right again. Reminds me of just two winter tyres, one on the front and one on the back. :evil: :grin: :wink:
Seriously, really amazing value for this time of the year.
Many others gave early warning too, and with good reason.
Still think one on the front left and the other as a spare is best though :grin: :grin:
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The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow,
:grin: Try pulling away on real snow and ice. Oh wait your 20 (so never driven when we use to have bad winters) + at the south coast = no idea what snow and ice really is. :tongue:
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Actually last winter was pretty hectic, and this year it was pretty bad too however the car had no MOT at the time so I didn't get the chance to go out and play in the snow :sad:
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Actually last winter was pretty hectic, and this year it was pretty bad too
That was nothing earlier this year down south i was down for a week or so early this year and LOL at the way people were down there with there two specs of snow. It was so funny you think the world was coming to an end the way the media was and people were. I sort of prooved my theory back then that most people nowadays have no idea what snow really is.
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I agree with Ben with the fact that if you have only 1 pair of winter tyres then I'd stick them on the back. I rather have a f*ck load of understeer instead of a f*ck load of oversteer. Understeer is FAR safer than oversteer. The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow, where as at the rear, on summer tyres, it'll be like watching bambi dance on ice.
Srsly, which actual planet are you on, dude?
My car really was like Bambi on ice this time last year. I actually had to abandon one journey and go back, because there was no way I could reach my destination, which was on a hill. There were days when I couldn't get into my garage just because of a tiny slope on the drive. The front wheels just spun uselessly.
And you know what? The engine weighed just the same then as it does now.
I've been running around merrily in up to a foot of the white stuff this year, including getting into work on the infamous 6th December (and more importantly home again), and all the previous week, and the thing is running as if it's on caterpillar tracks. I didn't even bother to shovel my drive this morning for just two measly inches - just drove over it, out and back in. Wheelspin? What wheelspin?
With two winter wheels on the front.
And no hint of oversteer at all. Or understeer, or anything. If you're going to throw your car around in the snow sufficiently to make it oversteer, then do us all a favour and keep it in your drive.
Which is exactly where it will be if you put winter tyres on the rear only.
PS: Watch videos from major tyre manufacturers about where to put 2 new tyres. They all choose the back for the reasons I said, nevermind what car it is or where the drive goes to.
And the day when this observation is even remotely relevant to what we're discussing, which is how to stop a Mk VI from going nowhere in the snow, then I'm sure we'll get back to you.
Rolfe.
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The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow,
Are you serious?
Jesus wept...only from a south coast dweller could you hear a comment like this!
I have failed to fit winter tyres only once in the last 8-9 winters...and I was running my Mk3 at the time. I couldn't get the car out of the driveway.
Despite the car having an engine...its weight was little use...and there was little by way of biting being done by my tyres.
There is a well known saying that suggests when theory and reality collide, reality wins. Every time.
You can suppose all you like, post as much internet evidance as you like and preach from the highest soapbox in the world...but real world is real world.
People that live in areas where they actually get winters (not a few flakes of snow to upset the shandy drinkers) have been managing just fine with winter tyres on the front only...nobody dies.
This fact has been ignored time and time again...
As has the function and operation of the factory fitted ESP system on a Mk6 GTI.
Maybe if someone posted that ACTUALLY HAS a Mk6 GTI and ACTUALLY SUFFERED uber-death causing oversteer, I'd pay more attention.
Until that point, I think i'll keep repying on personal experience...and retain the ability to drive somewhere in winter.
Rather than being 'Safe as f**k' with my winter tyres on the rear only, and remaining stuck in my driveway.
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what a bunch of pussys. :rolleyes:
earlier this year mine was the only car that moved off our street, and the next one for that matter - remember Benson was the coldest place in the UK - FACT :kiss:
it did 300 miles in 8 days running the wife and eldest 2 kids to work, albeit a 8 mile round trip, when your doing it 3 times a day and then shopping for street to, the miles add up
and all this on toyo T1r's :smug: never got stuck, only once met the hedge but that was me trying a j turn :lipsrsealed:
the fact they were fitted to a skuda feliatio worth £300 is here nor there :grin: :laugh: :kiss:
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^^ :grin: :grin: :grin:
and the morale of the story is...... buy a skuda and pocket the extra £300 you would habve spent on winter tyres :nerd:
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the fact they were fitted to a skuda feliatio worth £300 is here nor there :grin: :laugh: :kiss:
:grin: my sh!tsu yrv has had no problem with summer tyres this past couple of years but then it has no power and 165 tyres as standard. I did change them earlier this month to a set of 145 snows as i got them cheap as part of a deal i did for ones for the mk6 GTI which basically rubbish in the snow on summer tyres due to its 200+ bhp high torque and 225 summer tyres. If car manufactuers had not gone silly with tyre widths on shopping cars over the years the country would not grind to a halt. To think in the 80s our audi 100 was only running 185s as were all hothatches and basic shopping cart golfs ran 145x13 or 155x13. Even Audi ur-quattros only had 205's. I never got stuck in the bad winters of the late 80s or early 90s when running minis with 145x12s summer tyres :grin:
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The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow,
Are you serious?
Jesus wept...only from a south coast dweller could you hear a comment like this!
I'd actually like to see him try that! Especially if I was nearby with a videocamera. Except I might not be able to keep it steady for laughing....
I think the disconnect here is that those of us who actually live with the snow (Ess_Three, how is it with you, I hear scary stuff on the radio this morning....) are thinking about actually moving, getting out of our drives, getting up a hill that hasn't been gritted, getting out of a car park if it's snowed and then frozen while we were there. We know perfectly well that once moving we'll be driving quite slowly and very carefully. Nobody throws their cars into bends when the temperature is -6oC (as it is here right now) and there's snow and ice on the road. So we know where we need the traction - on the drive wheels. And we know that since the drive wheels on the Golf are also the steering wheels and the main braking wheels, the other two are relatively unimportant.
Those theorising from their ivory towers about putting winter tyres on the rear only are making a huge, unwarranted assumption. They're assuming they will actually be able to get going, and will be out there driving on roads that are clear enough for them to put on a bit of speed and start driving that GTi as they want to drive him. That's when concerns about oversteer might apply.
It doesn't happen, guys.
In these conditions, nobody drives in a manner that's likely to cause any sort of snap oversteer. Hell, you're lucky if you make 40mph on a clear, straight road. And you slow right down going into bends.
But you do get there. Which you definitely won't if you put the tyres with the traction on the wheels that are only there to keep the rear end of your car from dragging on the tarmac.
Rolfe.
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The weight of the engien at the front is enough to help the front tyres bite into the ice and snow,
Are you serious?
Jesus wept...only from a south coast dweller could you hear a comment like this!
I'd actually like to see him try that! Especially if I was nearby with a videocamera. Except I might not be able to keep it steady for laughing....
I think the disconnect here is that those of us who actually live with the snow (Ess_Three, how is it with you, I hear scary stuff on the radio this morning....) are thinking about actually moving, getting out of our drives, getting up a hill that hasn't been gritted, getting out of a car park if it's snowed and then frozen while we were there. We know perfectly well that once moving we'll be driving quite slowly and very carefully. Nobody throws their cars into bends when the temperature is -6oC (as it is here right now) and there's snow and ice on the road. So we know where we need the traction - on the drive wheels. And we know that since the drive wheels on the Golf are also the steering wheels and the main braking wheels, the other two are relatively unimportant.
Those theorising from their ivory towers about putting winter tyres on the rear only are making a huge, unwarranted assumption. They're assuming they will actually be able to get going, and will be out there driving on roads that are clear enough for them to put on a bit of speed and start driving that GTi as they want to drive him. That's when concerns about oversteer might apply.
It doesn't happen, guys.
In these conditions, nobody drives in a manner that's likely to cause any sort of snap oversteer. Hell, you're lucky if you make 40mph on a clear, straight road. And you slow right down going into bends.
But you do get there. Which you definitely won't if you put the tyres with the traction on the wheels that are only there to keep the rear end of your car from dragging on the tarmac.
Rolfe.
We get it, you don't believe oversteer can ever happen, you continue to believe that, but stop telling others that it won't happen - its dumb, dangerous advice.
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(Ess_Three, how is it with you, I hear scary stuff on the radio this morning....)
For once I'm happy to report that the weather conditions in the Brae Oil Field, (UK Block 16/07a) 155 miles NE of Aberdeen, are probably significantly better than Aberdeen city.
The Control Room is pleasingly warm...but since I have no windows, I cannot comment on the weather first hand.
I am reliably informed by my shiftmates that it's damn cold, and snowing like hell though.
No flying yesterday or today due to adverse weather.
I'm quite happy to be out here...at least my meals are cooked for me, so I don't have to worry about getting to Tesco for the basics.
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We get it, you don't believe oversteer can ever happen, you continue to believe that, but stop telling others that it won't happen - its dumb, dangerous advice.
Once again I will reiterate:
I have never managed to get a VW (or for that matter VAG Group) car to lift-off oversteer in 17 years...road or track, wet, dry or snow, ESP or not...understeer every time.
Where are these oversteering VWs?
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Are you being deliberately obtuse - or are you that naive?
VWs are no different to any other car on the planet, hell, I could make a unicycle oversteer if I wanted to.
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I made my 1.4 mk3 golf lift off oversteer once :grin:
EDIT: Also if you lot can afford £600 winter tyres, im sure you can put abit into the forum charity (click the link in my sig below). Give a little back instead of b!tching between one another :grin:
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Are you being deliberately obtuse - or are you that naive?
VWs are no different to any other car on the planet, hell, I could make a unicycle oversteer if I wanted to.
You must be a very good driver.
What I'm trying to point out that in 20+ years of road, track and competition driving, I've never found a VW that lift-off oversteers...hell, I've been trying to induce lift-off oversteer on my Mk3 for years, to help kill the understeer...the Mk6 will not lift-off oversteer either - the ESP makes sure of that.
So, if I can't get my GTIs to oversteer in any condition, on any tyres,...maybe you can enlighten me?
You are obviously king of the oversteer.
BTW...I'd appreciate it if we'd keep the discussion to lift-off oversteer...as the normally accepted vision of oversteer (power oversteer) won't happen...unless you are so good you can send the drive to the rear on a FWD VW?
And since lift-off oversteer requires a significant transfer of weight forward, unloading the rear and causing a break in rear wheel grip...while you are at it, explain how I get such a transfer of weight, at 20-30 MPH in the snow?
Since you have stated you can do it...please enlighten me?
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I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car. Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense" :sad: Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car, I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening. Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one :smug:
Massive demand for winter tyres at the moment so we are not alone, also the new legislation in Germany probably means there are supply issues. Once you've experienced the difference you'll know you've done the right thing.
I know I have.
Anyway, £600 over 3 or 4 winters isn't that bad on a 25k car. :smug:
I agree I thought £600 for 4 corners was quite a fair figure, they're probably just jealous :evil:
Amanda: How are the winter ware/wear? I bet you are very pleased. :smiley:
Bloomin marvellous, been out on snow and ice this morning, no real problems - did stall and had to move the beggar over some ice which wasn't too easy but got going again and then no probs at all. Think they have been well worth the expense. :smug:
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(Ess_Three, how is it with you, I hear scary stuff on the radio this morning....)
For once I'm happy to report that the weather conditions in the Brae Oil Field, (UK Block 16/07a) 155 miles NE of Aberdeen, are probably significantly better than Aberdeen city.
The Control Room is pleasingly warm...but since I have no windows, I cannot comment on the weather first hand.
I am reliably informed by my shiftmates that it's damn cold, and snowing like hell though.
No flying yesterday or today due to adverse weather.
I'm quite happy to be out here...at least my meals are cooked for me, so I don't have to worry about getting to Tesco for the basics.
Home for Christmas?
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Home for Christmas?
Sadly not...
I'll be sharing it with the other 60 or so unfortunates, stuck out here.
Somebody has to keep the Gas going into the line so you lot can keep your heating on 24 hours a day! :grin:
Home on the 29th all being well.
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Since you have stated you can do it...please enlighten me?
Ok, for ease of explanation, lets go right to the extreme of front/rear grip imbalance, zero grip on the rear wheels ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R30xm4ZzXJk&feature=fvst = oversteer (lift-off or otherwise, however you are choosing to define it)
Then a bit closer to reality, your choice of winters front and standard rears, albeit to a lesser extent would behave in much the same way. You don't have to exceed 10 mph to replicate the above, change the situation to yours and add snow/ice/water - and its easily done at sub 30 mph.
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...another stunning link rolled out.
Another comment ingored.
This is beginning to repeat like a broken record.
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This is beginning to repeat like a broken record.
Tell me about it, Mr "VW's never can't oversteer".
Stop talking sh!te and I'll stop posting.
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Tell me about it, Mr "VW's never can't oversteer".
Stop talking sh!te and I'll stop posting.
Mine can't...but the maybe I'm not fu*king stupid enough to lift off halfway round a bend flat out....or to drive like a bell-end in the snow.
I have repeatedly asked you how you can take an inherently understeering (by design) car and make it oversteer...and you repeatedly choose to ignore the question.
As you choose to ignore the fitment of ESP and it's effect on a Mk6 Golf...
And the fact that in the last 10 years I have yet to hear of anyone having a wildly-oversteering-near-death-insurance-liable incident from having winter tyres on the front of their FWD car.
My car could be hit by an airliner falling out of the sky after being blown up by terrorists. Should I avoid taking it out of the garage?
I've never heard of that happening either...but hey, you nerver know.
I'll have to hunt YouTube...there must be a video of it happening somewhere...
I would hate to advise anyone on here to actually drive their car...just in case.
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^^ :grin: :grin: :grin:
and the morale of the story is...... buy a skuda and pocket the extra £300 you would habve spent on winter tyres :nerd:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
after taking the Passat Barge out on sheet ice today - the skuda search starts :laugh:
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Home for Christmas?
Sadly not...
I'll be sharing it with the other 60 or so unfortunates, stuck out here.
Somebody has to keep the Gas going into the line so you lot can keep your heating on 24 hours a day! :grin:
Home on the 29th all being well.
Hero to many Ess-three. All the best for the festive season, who's cooking the turkey (hope he's a good chef) :laugh: Keep up the good work and keep warm :smiley:
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^^ :grin: :grin: :grin:
and the morale of the story is...... buy a skuda and pocket the extra £300 you would habve spent on winter tyres :nerd:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
after taking the Passat Barge out on sheet ice today - the skuda search starts :laugh:
the skuda crew better be on their watch!! chuffs about!
i will be stealing the mothers clio :cool: :laugh:
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Mine can't...
Correction, you can't
I have repeatedly asked you how you can take an inherently understeering (by design) car and make it oversteer...and you repeatedly choose to ignore the question.
I've not ignored, it, I've answered it hundreds of times - you can do it by deliberately altering the front/rear grip. I posted 10s of videos and links to further explain this.
As you choose to ignore the fitment of ESP and it's effect on a Mk6 Golf...
Because that wasn't the question you asked. But now you have asked, ESP can help prevent oversteer - but not break the laws of physics, ie. go put the trays under your rear wheels, drive round a car park and see if ESP saves you.
Seriously, stop arguing, its boring.
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What I'm trying to point out that in 20+ years of road, track and competition driving, I've never found a VW that lift-off oversteers...hell, I've been trying to induce lift-off oversteer on my Mk3 for years, to help kill the understeer...the Mk6 will not lift-off oversteer either - the ESP makes sure of that.
So, if I can't get my GTIs to oversteer in any condition, on any tyres,...maybe you can enlighten me?
You are obviously king of the oversteer.
just do what i do and over inflate the rears :grin: :grin:
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^^ :grin: :grin: :grin:
and the morale of the story is...... buy a skuda and pocket the extra £300 you would habve spent on winter tyres :nerd:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
after taking the Passat Barge out on sheet ice today - the skuda search starts :laugh:
the skuda crew better be on their watch!! chuffs about!
i will be stealing the mothers clio :cool: :laugh:
i wouldnt, imagine that if another transit hits you :shocked: :cry: :sick:
in my 12 mile journey this avo i saw 3 shunts on the 2cm of snow laying on the iced over roads :laugh: :grin:
Plastic everywhere :grin: :laugh:
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tell me about it... left at 6.30am this morning, dry roads, no ice on screen and i was still sliding about like a puppy on laminate :shocked:
no more snow for leeds pls thx!
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tell me about it... left at 6.30am this morning, dry roads, no ice on screen and i was still sliding about like a puppy on laminate :shocked:
no more snow for leeds pls thx!
siggy quote worthy :grin: :laugh:
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tell me about it... left at 6.30am this morning, dry roads, no ice on screen and i was still sliding about like a puppy on laminate :shocked:
no more snow for leeds pls thx!
siggy quote worthy :grin: :laugh:
:wink: :cool:
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I have repeatedly asked you how you can take an inherently understeering (by design) car and make it oversteer...and you repeatedly choose to ignore the question.
Tyre pressures, suspension stiffness, ARB, height of the front/rear.
I'm not keen on arguing with you Glen as I know you know a lot about cars in general, especially VW's, but I've managed to make mine oversteer on various occasions, both deliberately and accidentally.
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My car could be hit by an airliner falling out of the sky after being blown up by terrorists. Should I avoid taking it out of the garage?
I've never heard of that happening either...but hey, you nerver know.
I'll have to hunt YouTube...there must be a video of it happening somewhere...
It happened.
Five minutes past seven in the evening, on Tuesday 21st December 1988, on the A74, about 15 miles north of the English border.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1140000/images/_1144167_view300.jpg)
(http://www.sunjournal.com/files/imagecache/story_large/2009/09/04/PERlockerbie5P0906.jpg)
Plenty YouTube videos, though not of the actual impact itself for fairly obvious reasons. About four cars were burned out.
Rolfe.
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I have repeatedly asked you how you can take an inherently understeering (by design) car and make it oversteer...and you repeatedly choose to ignore the question.
Tyre pressures, suspension stiffness, ARB, height of the front/rear.
I'm not keen on arguing with you Glen as I know you know a lot about cars in general, especially VW's, but I've managed to make mine oversteer on various occasions, both deliberately and accidentally.
Mk3: big ARBs (specifically rear), Koni coilovers, poly bushes, lots of negative camber, hard rear tyre pressures, low ride height...it doesn't oversteer...road or track.
Mk6: ACC in sport, hard rear tyre pressures, low ride height...it doesn't oversteer either.
so, I'll ask again, how do I make one of these uber-oversteering VWs?
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Hero to many Ess-three. All the best for the festive season, who's cooking the turkey (hope he's a good chef) :laugh: Keep up the good work and keep warm :smiley:
Not so sure about hero to any!
Weather forecast is bad...lots of people worrying about getting off next week...no flying Thurs/Fri, forecast awful for today/tomorrow...so a flight backlog, Christmas looming and the faces are getting more misearable.
At least the Christmas food is on board...so the chef will be busy! Happy days.
Oh, one of the heaters broke in the control room yesterday afternoon...I'm struggling to maintain 20.6 degrees C in here.
It's a tough life.
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Correction, you can't
That is correct...I can't because my car is well set up and I can drive.
But by your reeasoning I'm likely to have my car swap ends at the drop of a hat with winter tyres on the front...despite my failing to make my GTIs oversteer throughout the last 17 years.
I've not ignored, it, I've answered it hundreds of times - you can do it by deliberately altering the front/rear grip. I posted 10s of videos and links to further explain this.
Ahh yes...your videos.
No actual experience though. And you choose to avoid the actual experience of those that argue.
Another clueless internet expert.
Because that wasn't the question you asked. But now you have asked, ESP can help prevent oversteer - but not break the laws of physics, ie. go put the trays under your rear wheels, drive round a car park and see if ESP saves you.
This may come as a shock to you...but I don't own tea trays.
I don't want them.
and I'll never put them under the rear wheels.
So that video is utterly irrelevant.
I do have a car with ESP though, and I do drive at speeds appropriate to the conditions.
Seriously, stop arguing, its boring.
Hopefully you'll get bored and crawl back under the rock you recently appeared from.
You just like to appear, post your YouTube links, stand on your soapbox lording it above the rest of us and expect us to roll over...whilst offering little actual, personal experience.
Well, no.
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Everything is irrelevant to you eh?
Like I said before, we all get it - in your eyes, it is impossible for any VW to oversteer (regardless of the fact, that I and many almost all other VW owners seem to be able to).
I don't really know how it is possible to reason with you? You asked, how can you make a car oversteer - and I answered simply, reduce the grip on the rear/increase the grip at the front. This is really simply replicated by taking the trays under the rear wheels example. (basic, extreme example, but valid nonetheless)
So lets re-hash, for about the 50th time now ...
Better tyres on the front = vehicle is more prone to oversteer
Better tyres on the rear = vehicle stability is uncompromised and remains the same
Same tyres all round = vehicle stability is uncompromised and remains the same
This is a view shared by everyone in the tyre industry, everyone in the motorsport industry, everyone in the tyre fitting industry, oh and everyone else - apart from you.
The problem being now, that you are knee-deep in your own stupid, offensive and frankly ridiculous comments; making it almost impossible for you to backtrack and admit that perhaps your experience isn't quite all-encompassing and 'might' be wrong.
So, rather than furthering this dumb thread, why don't you stop posting and I'll stop posting ;) After all, its Christmas - give the forum a gift and shut your mouth :grin:
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Ben, I think you are the most arrogant fur-lined, ocean going fuc*witt I have ever had the missfortune to read posts from.
You consistantly roll out the same old tired drivel/quotes/video clips, despite people offering personal experiences to prove otherwise.
You choose to ignore the basics of simple car design, and standard fitted satety features...
And you speak from a position of authority, in the Mk6 forum...without owning one.
Have you ever driven one?
Have you ever driven one on snow tyres?
Do you even get snow in your world?
Once again, I'll state that theory is a wonderful thing...but when reality and theory collide, reality wins. Every time.
We all get the basics...heaven knows you've wasted 10 or more pages repeating the same old tired crap.
The specifics however, are distorted or ignored.
This thread wasn't dumb before you ruined it (a repeat performance I may add) so politely, why don't you f**k off back to the forum you normally post in?
Is that the Mini forum?
Or the Mk2 Forum?
At the risk of making you appear even more ignorant and stupid, I'll let you intio a little chassis tweak for most of the Champoinship winning FWD sprint cars over the last 10 years...fit super sticky tyres to the front, and less grippy to the rear, so you kill understeer, induce oversteer to help the car rotate, and get the power back on harder with less lock applied.
You'll no doubt have a video to rubbish this...but being actively involved in motorsport over the years, I know what goes on from actually building and setting up...rather than watching it on youTube.
Therefore, I find it hard to take your comment "everyone in the motorsport industry" industry very seriously...as you clearly are a clot with little or no knowledge.
I'll await your usual response...a personal attack on anyone who happens to disagree with you.
But, if you happen to be some free-thinking genius chassis engineer that actually wants to help, and since you can get a unicycle to overster:
Please help me get my Mk3 to oversteer...as I can't set it up to progressively lift off oversteer, despite trying the usual tricks to achieve it by, and I quote: you can do it by deliberately altering the front/rear grip
I have tried higher rear tyre pressures, a big back ARB, R888s on the front, T1Rs on the rear, negative camber at the rear, toe in/out (tried both) at the rear.
I'm stumped...I want 30ish degrees of lift-off oversteer...and can't get it.
Maybe fitting snow tyres to the front would do it?
Or tea trays at the rear?
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Many, many years ago when I was at school, I had two Bens in my class.
One Ben was a bully, was obnoctious, willfull and was disliked by one and all. Later in life he became a used car salesman. I had the misfortune of bumping into him some years back. He was even worse than I care to remember and looked the worse for wear.
The other Ben was the complete opposite and became a brilliant surgeon and a good friend.
Ying and Yang.