ABS in the snow

[Rolfe]

I know many of the 'old folks' up in the north of Scotland (where it actually snows a lot...unlike the internet) have been running winter tyres on the front of their FWD cars for the last 10 years to my knowledge (until recently on cars with no ESP) and they've been getting to their work and home with no madly oversteering incidents/accidents.
These aren't internet examples or racing drivers - just normal people - and I find it hard to believe they are just the luckiest people on the planet.
So the oversteer issues out internet expert warns us of are surely not as bad as he's making on.

That was the obvious take-home message from the thread on the other (non-WV) forum linked to earlier.  Several internet pundits shouting about oversteer and dangerous instability with front-only winters, apparently on the basis of zero practical experience, and a whole bunch of people who'd been running their cars like that for years without any problems.  It was pointed out in that thread that it's common practice in the USA.

And nobody has any accident statistics to show it's particularly unsafe.  And nobody seems to have banned it, either.

I also notice that lots of the 'evidence' is from either tyre manufacturers, tyre sellers or organisations funded by the tyre industry...
Cynical, me? Surely not...

Yeah, I kinda noticed that too....

It seems that running with only a pair on the front of a front-wheel-drive (or even a 4WD I gather) is common, and known to work fine so long as nobody behaves like an idiot.  Countries where winter tyres are mandatory obviously specify doing all four wheels, and it seems that the tyre manufacturers would like everybody else to do the same and are running a bit of a scare campaign.

I'm sure it's not totally unjustified.  There are going to be situations where having all four tyres gives you just the advantage you need.  But to carry on about dangerous instability and snap oversteer is way over the top.

To suggest that you're better off not fitting winter tyres at all than doing just the front is insane, and to suggest that if you only have two such tyres they should go on the rear (of a VW Golf GTi Mk VI, which is after all what we're talking about) is men in white jackets territory.

By the way I'm writing this at work, having made it in with no drama at all (I didn't even dig my drive, just drove over it) despite white-out conditions.

The bit I can't understand is why the tyre manufacturers haven't been pushing the benefits of winter tyres on us since at least this time last year.  The number of sales they could have had if they'd just geared up and created the demand would have been phenomenal.  As it is, they're losing out because they're out of stock.  Against this background, propaganda to persuade people to fit four tyres seems a bit redundant.

Rolfe.

[Ben Lessani]

My point, was and never has been about getting stuck in the snow. Look back to my VERY FIRST comment, all I did was answer someone's question...

is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only

The answer is, and always will be, no.

When you asked,

for front-end traction, is it more sensible to fit winters on the front or rear

I, without argument or hesitation answered, yes - its obvious on a FWD car. But it will unbalance the stability of the car.

I honestly thought you lot were past this when the last thread was closed, I didn't bring the last (pointless) debate into this thread - you lot did. Your OP asked, what difference does ABS make in the snow ... to which I very politely replied ...

@Rolfe - judging from the "other thread" - you won't be suitably convinced by reading, watching or listening to what anyone has to say. Don't take that offensively, but the majority of your argument was about first hand experience.

The only way you'll know for sure is to do some tests yourself. Go into a big empty car park, mark some lines in the snow and do your own testing.

Ps. Regarding your tyre-fitter, I'd rather be embarrassed asking for a new set, than involved in a crash wishing I had

Its clear that you believe that all content posted on the internet is an apparent marketing campaign and holds no water, so don't believe it, don't read it, and stop asking other people on the internet the same question, when you refuse to hear anything but the answer you have already decided is correct.

My recommendation to "test for yourself" - wasn't my opinion, wasn't me preaching, wasn't me quoting, but merely telling the OP that if they want to know, go and find out - because no number of YouTube videos or articles that anyone links to is apparently "true".

And I'll steer clear of the MK6 section, so long as people don't keep saying I've said things, which I clearly haven't - or drawing me back in to the conversation.

Don't blame me for posting, blame yourself for keep inviting me back to the discussion.

[Rolfe]

is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only

The answer is, and always will be, no.

Except, the answer seems to be yes, it's common practice.  So long as you realise the car has to be driven in the full realisation that you still have summer tyres on the rear - so take corners within the limits of the grip of the summer tyres, and bear in mind that braking distance, though markedly better than with summer tyres all round, will not be as good as with four winters.

If you want to throw your car around like a lunatic in the snow, fit four winter tyres.  If you're ultra-safety-conscious, fit four winter tyres.  But if your main object is to get the traction you need not to get stuck and to be able to take snowy hills without wheelspin, and you're prepared to drive within the limits of the set-up, two front winter tyres is a perfectly reasonable proposition.  Lots of people do it, and don't seem to be unduly troubling the scorer in the accident statistics.

Fitting two will always be better than none at all, especially in a car with ESP.  And fitting the two you have on the back would be pointless nonsense, which even Ben is backtracking on now, although he repeatedly and pointedly implied that was the better option earlier.

And yes, I have tried it.  The car is fine braking with the two front tyres, and stops much sooner and in much better order than it would have done with the summer tyres on, though I'm perfectly prepared to believe it would stop even sooner with all four winter tyres.  I'm more concerned with cornering performance, but I've got more sense than to take corners at any speed at all in the snow.

When I was doing my research lab work, I had a quote inside my lab book.  "If it happens, it must be possible."  Meaning, that theory ain't worth a damn if it's contradicted by practical observation.  Theory used to declare that a bumble bee can't fly.  So which is it?  Are bumble bees a figment of the imagination, or is it possible the theory wasn't quite right somewhere?

Rolfe.

[gizzywizzy]

I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car.  Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense"  Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car,  I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening.  Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one 

Its not about them anyway Gizzy, its about your safety and thats all that matters

Never a truer word spoken Steve of course you are so right - stuff the lot of em, at least I wont be upside down in some ditch Thanks mate.

[gizzywizzy]

There has been a ruckus and I wasnt involved ?

Damn you all, damn you all to hell.

 

[Ben Lessani]

is it ok to just fit winter tyres at the front only

The answer is, and always will be, no.

Except, the answer seems to be yes, it's common practice.  So long as you realise the car has to be driven in the full realisation that you still have summer tyres on the rear - so take corners within the limits of the grip of the summer tyres, and bear in mind that braking distance, though markedly better than with summer tyres all round, will not be as good as with four winters.

If you want to throw your car around like a lunatic in the snow, fit four winter tyres.  If you're ultra-safety-conscious, fit four winter tyres.  But if your main object is to get the traction you need not to get stuck and to be able to take snowy hills without wheelspin, and you're prepared to drive within the limits of the set-up, two front winter tyres is a perfectly reasonable proposition.  Lots of people do it, and don't seem to be unduly troubling the scorer in the accident statistics.

Fitting two will always be better than none at all, especially in a car with ESP.  And fitting the two you have on the back would be pointless nonsense, which even Ben is backtracking on now, although he repeatedly and pointedly implied that was the better option earlier.

And yes, I have tried it.  The car is fine braking with the two front tyres, and stops much sooner and in much better order than it would have done with the summer tyres on, though I'm perfectly prepared to believe it would stop even sooner with all four winter tyres.  I'm more concerned with cornering performance, but I've got more sense than to take corners at any speed at all in the snow.

When I was doing my research lab work, I had a quote inside my lab book.  "If it happens, it must be possible."  Meaning, that theory ain't worth a damn if it's contradicted by practical observation.  Theory used to declare that a bumble bee can't fly.  So which is it?  Are bumble bees a figment of the imagination, or is it possible the theory wasn't quite right somewhere?

Rolfe.

Then surely you have the answer you want ...

Oh and I'm not backtracking - I think you've mis-understood most/all of what I have written.

[am1w]

Listen fcukwit Ben.

I'll summerise:

Rolfe puts her two better tyres, which happen to be winter ones, on the front axel of her FWD car so that she can drive the damn thing in the snow by moving forward.

You ponificate that the two better tyres, which in her case happen to be winter ones, should ideally be put on the rear axel of her FWD car for safety and handling issues. Yes, it will be much safer as her car won't move forward in the snow due to lack of traction and thus there will be no handling or safety issues.

We all agree that four winter tyres would be best.

You are, as of now, un-invited.

GOODBYE.

[Sam]

Good lord you lot are mental! 

[am1w]

Good lord you lot are mental! 

If you can't beat us, join us.
Thanks for watching.

[Ben Lessani]

Un-invite this

Ben + the rest of the world's method = uncompromised stability
Rolfe + am1w's method = unbalanced car, much higher risk of oversteer