ABS in the snow

[Ben Lessani]

Who is the troll exactly - the person who keeps countlessly being named and drawn back in to your ridiculous discussion - or those doing the naming? You'll notice I'm only actually posting if you keep mentioning me ...

He's wrong, he knows it but is a wind up merchant looking for an argument.

PM me if you like - but explain how I am wrong exactly?

What I've said, repeatedly, is that ...

Better tyres go on the rear - regardless of the time of year

... a view, shared by the entire world - apart from about 6 morons in the MK6 section ...

http://kevinxie.posterous.com/new-tires-at-rear-not-front-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPYBArQQVAE

[Ben Lessani]

http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/care/

When radial tires are used with bias or bias belted tires on the same car, the radials must always be placed on the rear axle. Never mix radial and bias-ply tires on the same axle. When you select a pair of replacement tires in the same size and construction as those on the car, we recommend you put them on the rear axle. A single new tire should be paired on the rear axle with the tire having the most tread depth of the other three.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/4243992

Some tire stores insist on installing two new tires on the rear wheels of vehicles when the fronts are worn, and moving the old rear tires to the front--much to the dismay of many customers who want the new tires on the front. So, who's right?

Actually, I agree with the stores, as do the tire companies. Here's why: In dry, clear weather it really doesn't make much difference. But if the road is wet, the new, full-treaded tires are less likely to lose traction than the partly worn ones. If you're hauling ants down the road and come to a wet curve, the full-treaded tires on the rear will stay behind you, where they belong.

If the rear tires have less tread, there's a greater chance that they will slip, putting your rear bumper into the ditch. Okay, if the front tires skid, there's the chance you might go off the road, too--but at least it'll be headfirst, where your seatbelts and airbags offer more protection.

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/

Most drivers think that new tyres should be fitted to the front wheels...
A car tyre is often a distress purchase, but even when replacing one in the course of normal vehicle maintenance, it has long been believed that the new tyres should be fitted on the front wheels. Research by TyreSafe, Britain’s foremost tyre safety organisation, has indicated that over 50% of motorists believe this to be the case and 30% of motorists did not know.

However, recent demonstrations have indicated that it is more beneficial to fit the new rubber to the rear wheels, regardless of whether the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive. Industry research suggests that if the new tyres are fitted to the rear wheels, water on the road surface is better dispersed, which improves straight line braking ability. Conversely, if the rear track is fitted with part worn tyres, the car often has a dangerous tendency to oversteer.

As the majority of the cars on the road are front wheel drive, it seems to make sense to have the new tyres up front. The demonstrations also showed that there is often a greater loss of control when a rear tyre suffers a puncture, so in fact it makes greater sense to fit the fresh, less vulnerable rubber to the rear wheels.

Rear tyres are subject to relatively low wear rates as well, meaning that the new tyres will have a longer lifespan on the back rims. Fitting new tyres to the rear and moving part worn rubber to the front each time also means that the rear tyres will be less prone to age-related deterioration from prolonged exposure.

http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php

We recommend that you use newer tyres for the rear set, for extra safety in unforeseen or difficult situations (emergency braking, tight bends etc) particularly on wet surfaces. Numerous tests have shown that it is easier to control the front wheels than those at the rear. Front tyres generally wear quicker than those fitted at the rear, particularly on front wheel drive cars, which are currently in the majority.
New tyres fitted in front:
• The behavior of the car will change, because the front / rear balance will be reversed. The driver, used to a car with less grip at the front, will therefore be taken unawares.

• On a slippery road, the rear will lose traction before the front of the vehicle.

The driver will have no chance of controlling the rear, and will be tempted to accelerate further, which will amplify the spin effect. Only an experienced driver will be able to recover from this dangerous situation.
New tyres fitted at the back:
• The handling of the vehicle will be similar to that known by the driver before the tyre change, because the traction balance will be the same.

• Rear traction will be better, and the driver will be able to control and steer their vehicle without a problem by decelerating and turning the steering wheel in the direction of the bend.

That's why we advise you to reduce the risks you take by fitting new or less worn tyres at the rear of the vehicle for:

• better grip on bends
• extra safety.

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html

New tyres to the front or rear?

Check the car handbook first as some vehicle manufacturers give specific advice on this. If there is no information in the handbook, then it's good practice for safety to fit the best/newest tyres on the rear – in wet conditions, this favours understeer rather than oversteer. So if you have the front tyres renewed it's best to have the rear ones moved to the front and the new tyres fitted to the rear.

[Ben Lessani]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52

Where to Install New Pairs of Tires?

Most vehicles are equipped with the same size tire at every wheel position. Ideally all of these tires should also be of the same type and design, have the same tread depth and be inflated to the pressures specified by the vehicle placard or owner's manual. This combination best retains the handling balance engineered into the vehicle by its manufacturer.

However due to a front-wheel drive vehicle’s front tires' responsibility for transmitting acceleration, steering and most of the braking forces, it's normal for them to wear faster than rear tires. Therefore if the tires aren't rotated on a regular basis, tires will typically wear out in pairs rather than in sets. And if the tires aren't rotated at all, it's likely that the rear tires will still have about 1/2 of their original tread depth remaining when the front tires are completely worn out.

Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However in this case, intuition isn't right...and following it can be downright dangerous.

When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. The reason is because new tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.

Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire's ability to resist hydroplaning.

Exactly when hydroplaning occurs is the result of a combination of elements including water depth, vehicle weight and speed, as well as tire size, air pressure, tread design and tread depth. A lightweight vehicle with wide, worn, underinflated tires in a heavy downpour will hydroplane at lower speeds than a heavyweight vehicle equipped with new, narrow, properly inflated tires in drizzling rain.

If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.

However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to oversteer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.

Experience

Members of Tire Rack team had the chance to experience this phenomenon at Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds. Participants were allowed to drive around a large radius, wet curve in vehicles fitted with tires of different tread depths -- one vehicle with new tires on the rear and half-worn tires on the front and the other with the new tires in the front and half-worn tires on the rear.

It didn't take long for this hands-on experience to confirm that the "proving grounds" name for the facility was correct. The ability to sense and control predictable understeer with the new tires on the rear and the helplessness in trying to control the surprising oversteer with the new tires on the front was emphatically proven.

And even though our drivers had the advantage of knowing we were going to be challenged to maintain car control, spinouts became common during our laps in the car with the new tires on the front and the worn tires on the rear. Michelin advises us that almost every driver spins out at least once when participating in this demonstration!

Experiencing this phenomenon in the safe, controlled conditions of Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds rather than in traffic on an Interstate ramp in a rainstorm is definitely preferred!

Recommendations

Tires should be serviced periodically following the rotation patterns provided in the vehicle's owner's manual or as established by the industry to help enhance wear quality and equalize front-to-rear and side-to-side wear rates. The minor differences in tread depth between tires that might be encountered immediately after periodic tire rotations at 5,000-7,500 mile intervals won’t upset the vehicle's hydroplaning balance and should not preclude rotating tires. For that matter, any differences in wear rates actually indicate that tire rotations should be done more frequently. Ideally tires should be replaced in complete sets. However when tires are replaced in pairs, the new pair of tires (assuming the vehicle is equipped with the same size tires all of the way around) should always be installed on the rear axle and the existing partially worn tires moved to the front axle.

While insufficient tire rotation intervals and/or out-of-adjustment wheel alignment angles often caused the differences in front-to-rear and side-to-side tire wear rates in the first place, the need to keep deeper treaded tires on the rear axle to resist oversteer conditions caused by wet road hydroplaning is important. Unfortunately this precludes the future possibility of ever rotating tires.

Once a pair of tires has been installed, the only way to escape being forced to drive on mismatched tires continually is to install a complete set of new tires (especially on front-wheel drive vehicles).

http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616&lang=EN

Fitting new or least-worn tyres at the rear

If you are only changing two tyres out of four, whether your vehicle has front- or rear-wheel drive, we recommend fitting the newest tyres on the rear axle. This will give you greater safety in the event of unexpected and difficult situations (emergency braking, tight bends, etc..) especially in the wet. The front tyres generally wear quicker than the rear, especially with front-wheel drive (which applies to the majority of vehicles nowadays). Numerous tests have demonstrated that it is easier to control the front axle than the rear.
This is why KLEBER advise you to fit the new or least worn tyres on the rear axle for :

better grip when cornering
greater safety.

http://www.karacare.co.uk/tyres.html

The beginning of movement and acceleration of any vehicle in snow, ice and other adverse cold weather conditions is highly dependent on the traction qualities of the tyres on the driving axle. The controlled handling and braking of a vehicle after it is in motion in adverse weather conditions, however, is highly dependent on the traction of the rear tyres. Consequently, the rear tyres of any vehicle must have equal or higher traction capabilities than the front tyres for safe vehicle operation.

Because of the higher traction qualities of studded snow tyres under most winter weather conditions, installation of only two studded snow tyres on the front of any vehicle (especially front wheel drive vehicles) without two studded snow tyres on the rear can cause adverse (unsafe) handling characteristics. Consult tyre manufacturer for correct stud size. If you sell and/or install studded snow tyres on vehicles you must follow the procedures listed below:

Only new tyres should be fitted with studs. Never insert studs in a used tyre (even if only slightly used).
Without studded snow tyres on the rear, which have the same traction qualities as the studded front tyres, adverse (unsafe) handling and braking characteristics are introduced into the vehicle. This may result in loss of vehicle control, which could cause serious injury or death.
If studded snow tyres are installed on only the rear of any vehicle, it is recommended (but not required) that they be installed on the front. Only if studded tyres are installed on all wheel positions of a vehicle will optimum handling characteristics be achieved

[GolfTi]

'It's best if you buy only two winter tyres to put one on the font left wheel and keep the other in the boot as a spare.

This avoids traction issues like the problem of having to drive in a straight line in snow or ice'

B L

 

[am1w]

The MRSA is back.

[Rolfe]

Oh, I know I promised, but....

I just counted.  Seven quotes about how it's preferable to put new tyres on the rear if replacing only a pair of a set.  Absolutely bugger-all to do with fitting a pair of winter tyres to provide traction to stop you getting stuck in the snow.

Then one quote specifically about studded tyres.  And that one is pushing the "you should have them on all four wheels" line.  Which again nobody ever disputed.

Still waiting for the accident statistics showing that vehicles with front-only winter tyres are more likely to be involved in accidents.  And for the country that has banned the practice as unsafe.  Judging by the utterly lame array of quotes you just posted, not one of which is even relevant to the discussion, I'm guessing you don't have any.

I repeat.  We know that fitting only two winter tyres is not ideal  We know that greater care has to be taken when driving such a set-up compared to fitting a full set.  We know that braking distance will be longer than with a full set, and that the rear may drift out if a corner is taken too fast.  We know that the ESP will tend to prevent the rear overtaking the front when braking though.  So we're being reasonably careful, and making progress.

We also know that fitting a pair of winter tyres to the rear of a front-wheel-drive car would be a complete waste of money, as the basic problem of getting stuck in the snow would not be solved.

Rolfe.

[Ess_Three]

Good old Ben...
Lots more internet quoting - little practical expreience.
Lots more youTube video linking...as we all know ther is never anything but the truth on youTube.
And once again ignoring the specific issue of snow traction (you know, actaully being able to move in a forwards direction) or reference to the standard fitted ESP on Mk6 GTIs...maybe because he doesn't own one.

I know many of the 'old folks' up in the north of Scotland (where it actually snows a lot...unlike the internet) have been running winter tyres on the front of their FWD cars for the last 10 years to my knowledge (until recently on cars with no ESP) and they've been getting to their work and home with no madly oversteering incidents/accidents.
These aren't internet examples or racing drivers - just normal people - and I find it hard to believe they are just the luckiest people on the planet.
So the oversteer issues out internet expert warns us of are surely not as bad as he's making on.

I'm bored with it all now...

I also notice that lots of the 'evidence' is from either tyre manufacturers, tyre sellers or organisations funded by the tyre industry...
Cynical, me? Surely not...

[gizzywizzy]

I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car.  Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense"  Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car,  I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening.  Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one 

[Steve30]

I have been ridiculed all week at work for the fact that I have put 4 winter tyres on my car.  Comments like "they saw you coming" and "more money than sense"  Nobody believes me that it is safer to run the car with the 4 tyres and they all say you only need them on the front of a fwd car,  I have argued until I'm blue in the face that my traction in the snow will be better but no one's listening.  Just wait until someone has an accident then we will see who is the smug one 

Its not about them anyway Gizzy, its about your safety and thats all that matters

[VWKev]

There has been a ruckus and I wasnt involved ?

Damn you all, damn you all to hell.