Author Topic: ABS in the snow  (Read 32192 times)

Offline Rolfe

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ABS in the snow
« on: 04 December 2010, 23:58 »
Please don't hit me!  I asked this question in the thread that got locked, but it was overlooked.

Ben posted links to a series of Canadian public information films about winter tyres.  The take-home message was to fit winter tyres rather than all-weather tyres, with a side order of "fit four, not two".  Only two of the clips involved cars with only two winter tyres, and the first of these was two rear winter tyres on a RWD car.  Unsurprisingly, the thing was almost unsteerable when pushed.  (They didn't try winter tyres on the rear of a front-wheel-drive car, I can't imagine why! :rolleyes: )

The problematic clip is the fifth one, where they get on to two winter tyres on the front wheels of a FWD car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtAm7RsTmE

Note the two cars the clip starts with are not identical.  And only one of these has an ABS installed!  (How many cars these days don't have ABS, for pity's sake?)  So to make it fair, we've disabled the ABS on the other car.

The first run of tests just puts full winter tyres up against all-weather tyres, in braking and cornering.  Obviously, the winter tyres do a lot better.  However, they then try winter tyres on the front only against full winter tyres.  The relevant section is at 1 min 45 seconds.  In the braking test, the car with just the front winter tyres spins round, with the rear trying to overtake the front.

This looks quite scary, especially as this is the way my car is set up at present.  I know the rear end will throw out when cornering, and thus I take corners slowly.  Not a problem.  But an emergency stop is an emergency stop.  You can't know you'll never have to do one.  And that looked downright dangerous.

My question is, why did they disable the ABS?  Is it not likely that if the ABS had been operational, that car would have stopped under control, without spinning round?  (Not expecting the same stopping distance as the full winter tyres, obviously.)

I think it's a dishonest test, deliberately designed to scare the punters into buying the two extra tyres, but that they had to disable the ABS in order for the two-only on a FWD car to look like a bad idea.  I do not feel like trying this at home, not without a disused airfield handy, so could anyone tell me if I'm right about this?

Rolfe.
« Last Edit: 05 December 2010, 00:00 by Rolfe »

Offline mac7

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #1 on: 05 December 2010, 00:21 »
ABS makes a significant difference to braking performance, so disabling it levels the playing field for the tests.

I'm more interested in the surface used in the braking tests - one car appears to be braking on snow, the other on a more compacted icy section. That one is bound to travel further regardless of tyre choice. For that reason I am not convinced the test is totally fair.
 
With ABS/ESP your car will be far less prone to spin under emergency braking. But lets face it, if you stand on the brakes whether it's snow, rain or perfectly dry, weight transfer and the simple laws of physics will try to spin the car regardless of tyres. If you've got more grip at the front because of winter tyres then yes, there's more chance of a spin. But is it dangerous? Well that's up to you to decide.
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Offline Hyperspace

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #2 on: 05 December 2010, 04:21 »
Here is what I posted in that locked thread, quote:



Having a drastic difference in grip between the front and rear axle is highly unadvisable. Avoid this situation if you can at all help it.

When it comes to fitting two new tyres (whether it be summer, all-season, winter or snow tyres) to whichever axle, let it be clear there is no such thing as "the better" option, it is more about the "least worst" option.


The German Automobile Club (ADAC) conducted a test, by fitting gripper tyres on the FRONT axle, and ended up with the following results:

Pros
- Reduced aquaplaning when cornering.
- Significant reduction in braking distances when slippery.
- Slight reduction in braking distances when dry.

Cons
- Significant likelihood of snap oversteer (on cars without ESP).
- Likelihood of snap oversteer on cars with ESP is reduced, but if the limits of the ESP are breached (they cannot bend the laws of physics) then the ensuing break in traction tends to be more violent and uncontrollable.

The conclusion reached by ADAC is to fit gripper tyres on the rear axle. Hence, the recommendation of tyre manufacturers and motoring organisations stems from their goal to prevent any situation which could lead to snap oversteer in slippery conditions, which in their opinion overrides the benefits from fitting gripper tyres on the front axle. Essentially, their priority is ensuring and maintaining stability on the road.

My opinion - you're pretty much f***ed either way.


However, different drivers have different priorities, and if you're intelligent and mature enough to look all the facts, and take into account local conditions, then you can probably make your own decision accordingly.



End quote



I think it's a dishonest test... they had to disable the ABS in order for the two-only on a FWD car to look like a bad idea.  I do not feel like trying this at home, not without a disused airfield handy, so could anyone tell me if I'm right about this?

Nope, as mac7 said, that's just the laws of physics at work without electronic hinderance. I believe ABS alone wouldn't have made a significant difference, it only prevents the wheels from locking (and there are plenty of cars on the road without ESP ya'know) but you can at least choose what to hit/avoid. ESP working in conjuction with ABS is what you need to prevent understeer or oversteer.

... deliberately designed to scare the punters into buying the two extra tyres...

Nope, fitting only two winter tyres is a huge compromise whichever axle they're on, and the bloke who sold you two tyres seriously needs his head checked.

... this is the way my car is set up at present.

Mate, you've already taken the plunge and committed yourself to fitting winter tyres (which is a decision in itself) so do it right the first time - just buy another pair.

Oh, and don't go back to the garage that sold you the pair, take your business elsewhere!

But is it dangerous? Well that's up to you to decide.

As he says, you need to decide what you need from your car. You can use the list of pros/cons I've provided to help make your own informed decision.

But the overriding message is clear - do not fit only two winter tyres (pretty much everyone in the locked thread was at least in agreement with that).

Offline Hartside

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #3 on: 05 December 2010, 11:24 »
Snow is one of the conditions where ABS isn't a benefit, all things being equal. In snow, braking performance can be enhanced by snow build up in front of a locked wheel, rather than ABS letting it pass under as it unlocks the brake.

Things not being equal, like in Rolfes case, then ABS is a definite advantage
« Last Edit: 05 December 2010, 11:33 by Hartside »
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Offline Snoopy

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #4 on: 05 December 2010, 12:50 »
ESP is an advantage as it will try and stop the car spinning by changing the braking of the wheels etc.

ABS i hate in snow (all other things been equal, tyres etc) as it increases braking distances. Why the car makers stopped fitting the ABS off switch like Audi and many others use to fit i don't know. As i have no confidence in a car with ABS in deep snow.
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Offline Steve30

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #5 on: 05 December 2010, 13:21 »
ESP is an advantage as it will try and stop the car spinning by changing the braking of the wheels etc.

ABS i hate in snow (all other things been equal, tyres etc) as it increases braking distances. Why the car makers stopped fitting the ABS off switch like Audi and many others use to fit i don't know. As i have no confidence in a car with ABS in deep snow.

A big +1 form me  :smiley:

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Offline The Danno

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #6 on: 05 December 2010, 13:25 »
That video was pretty convincing really!!

Offline Rolfe

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #7 on: 05 December 2010, 17:01 »
I have to say, I wish they'd shown a comparison with the ABS on.

I appreciate that having four winter tyres is preferable.  It wasn't really my choice only to have two.  Nevertheless, the car is running as if it was on caterpillar tracks and I haven't been stuck or even noticed any wheelspin.  Last year I was stuck several times, and the car completely failed to take a hill.  I also find that running two winter tyres is quite common.  Someone else at work is doing it, and another forum discussion mentioned that it's common practice in the USA.

I don't really mind having to take the corners carefully, and I'm getting around just fine.  I think it's unlikely that I'll go back to the garage and insist on getting a second pair fitted now.  I'm trying to decide (well in advance!) what line to take next year.  Do I just go with the single pair, or put my foot down and insist on the full set?

That video is all very well, but it doesn't represent reality without the ABS, so I'm interested in how much difference disabling the ABS would have made.

Lecturing that having four winter tyres is better is redundant.  I know that.  However, the mood music I'm getting is that the extent of the poorer performance, and indeed the dangers, of only running two are being grossly exaggerated by the pedants, and that in practice it works fairly well.

If not, maybe some reference to accident statistics where having only two winter tyres was identified as a factor, would be handy.  Or maybe there's a country somewhere (not counting countries where full winter tyres are mandatory of course) that has banned the practice for safety reasons?

Rolfe.
« Last Edit: 06 December 2010, 09:46 by Rolfe »

Offline Hyperspace

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #8 on: 05 December 2010, 18:03 »
I have to say, I wish they'd shown a comparison with the ABS on.

Me too. For the sake of completeness, they really should've done a test with ABS to highlight its benefit or otherwise. Nothing beats putting theory into practice.


I'm trying to decide (well in advance!) what line to take next year.  Do I just go with the single pair, or put my foot down and insist on the full set?

You should by now have enough information to make an informed decision.


... the dangers of only running two are being grossly exaggerated...

Their reasoning behind fitting four winter tyres (or two on the rear) is to ensure a driver can maintain stability at all costs (see my previous post).


... I'm getting around just fine...

It sounds like the last remaining barrier to peace-of-mind rests on braking stability.

If you have ESP you'll be mostly fine. It is still possible to get the back to step out, but I imagine it'll be difficult under most circumstances. Just keep doing what you're doing and life should be sweet.

If you only have ABS, then keep researching.

Offline Jimble

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Re: ABS in the snow
« Reply #9 on: 05 December 2010, 18:15 »
Rolfe, i would say if yout getting around just fine now then why bother with another pair? Are you not going to hang on to the pair you have? Would save the expense next year.
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