GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: Tailpipe on 08 December 2009, 17:57
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My next car will be a VW Golf. No question. I have been thinking about it for 3 months, while saving the necessary cash for a decent downpayment. Come January, I'll be ready to place the order.
I love the GTI, it is perfect in so many ways. I have kids and live in London so a five-door hatchback is the ideal car. I truly think the GTI is the most rounded machine you can buy. But even though practicality is a priority, I know I'll still be able to enjoy the occasional burst on open country roads. But I want something with just a little more power and specialness than a bog-standard GTI offers.
So along comes the R. Wow! It looks like it'll deliver in so many ways, especially with such a useful addition in power and AWD. I particularly like its understated styling. So the R should be a no-brainer. Well, no actually, it isn't.
I am lucky enough to be able to afford monthly repayments on either car. But somehow, I feel that the £35K the spec i want (DSG, ACC, leather, RDS510) will cost is just too much to pay for a Golf. I'm worried that when my mates find out what I paid for it, they'll say: what! How much did you pay? You paid THAT MUCH for a Golf? And I will feel a plonker. Not least because you can buy a half-decent second-hand 911 for that kind of money.
Maybe i shouldn't care what other people think. But, come on, we all care what people think about the cars we drive. Maybe the R will be worth it? Maybe i should just buy a GTI and I'll enjoy it anyway.
Advice?
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I would sit down and think how often you would actually need and use that extra power.
I know it will be a battle of head v testosrerone/hart.
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I would sit down and think how often you would actually need and use that extra power.
I know it will be a battle of head v testosrerone/hart.
and then............... Buy the R! :wink:
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I would sit down and think how often you would actually need and use that extra power.
I know it will be a battle of head v testosrerone/hart.
and then............... Buy the R! :wink:
+1 :grin:
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I wouldnt care about my mates and what they think !! If you can afford it then just get it and enjoy, looks like an awsome car or get an S3 , BMW twin turbo diesel very nice?? :laugh: :wink: Steve30
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Spend Half on an GTi/Edition30, remap it with £500 , and you'll have a car thats as quick, and still have 20k in change :wink:
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Spec for spec, you're talking about an extra 7-8k for the R over the GTI.
What car did you have previously? That'll give us an idea of how you might perceive the GTI vs the R.
Personally, I reckon the GTI is great for London, especially with ACC smoothing out the crap roads and speedbumps. The GTI is fast enough for London's tighter roads. If you do get bored, then there is always the cheap and quick option of chipping it to circs 270bhp! :evil:
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If you can afford it i would go for the R.
I love my GTi, it is such a great car but after only 3 weeks of owning it I am left wanting more already.
I came from MarkV 140bhp GT TDi 4 motion and I really miss the extra traction. The GTi will spin its front wheels on the slightest damp road and round corners will squirm as it struggles to put the power down. My old 4 motion with full throttle would just sprint away in the rain and power around corners, with no squeal or slippage. 4 motion is so good you don't realise how much you use it until its gone.
So go with the R and you will never have to regret it.
Just make sure it is safely locked away.
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Difficult. Coming from a Mk5 R32, obvious choice was the R.
I live in the countryside, so the 4WD is of real benefit.
But, if I lived in a town, the GTI might just do... except I love the (relative) exclusivity of the R.
I love the more understated looks of the R too.
But each to the own... I've never owned a GTI... tough one... not sure I've helped.
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
To drive i would take a mk5 GTI or mk6 GTI over an Audi S3 anyday and thats the closest to the R at the present time. But its probably different again or i hope it is!
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
+1
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
+1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqepCssCPT0
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
+1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqepCssCPT0
LOL! Nice one! But seriously...
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Spec for spec, you're talking about an extra 7-8k for the R over the GTI.
What car did you have previously? That'll give us an idea of how you might perceive the GTI vs the R.
Personally, I reckon the GTI is great for London, especially with ACC smoothing out the crap roads and speedbumps. The GTI is fast enough for London's tighter roads. If you do get bored, then there is always the cheap and quick option of chipping it to circs 270bhp! :evil:
I had an original VR6 in 1992 Which I loved. Then went for a Z3 which was a mistake I put right by getting the last M3 which was very good. For some mad reason I bought a Lexus IS250 which was the biggest mistake of my life. Now driving an Audi A2 which I is cute but too small and underpowered. Though I drive a lot in London, the wife and I love to drive across Europe in the Summer. So pace and comfort are important as handling.
Have to admit that R is really amazing. I think it is being reviewed very soon.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
You reckon?
If it's just an S3 in a Golf body it'll be dull as dishwater to drive (but quick) and about as appealling as a dose of the clap.
I really don't know how people are confortable ordering a car without ever driving it...it could be great...on the other hand...
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You reckon?
If it's just an S3 in a Golf body it'll be dull as dishwater to drive (but quick) and about as appealling as a dose of the clap.
Possibly.
I really don't know how people are confortable ordering a car without ever driving it...it could be great...on the other hand...
Crazy - I know. But, I like the looks. It's what I want. I don't drive round at 10/10ths anyway, so if it's as good as an S3 that's fine by me. With DSG it's not going to be a boy racer machine. More an exclusive grand tourer...
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No ones driven the R yet so whos to say its not a dog?
True - I guess I'll be the first to find out whether it is or not. :grin:
Me bets you £5 it's the dog's and not a dog.
You reckon?
If it's just an S3 in a Golf body it'll be dull as dishwater to drive (but quick) and about as appealling as a dose of the clap.
I really don't know how people are confortable ordering a car without ever driving it...it could be great...on the other hand...
I certainly wouldn't place an order for an R until I've read a road-test from a magazine I trust, like Car or Autocar. That said, I think the R will be spectacular based on what journalists have already written about the Scirocco R and latest Golf GTI. I mean, VW would have to truly f***-*p, for it not to be excellent.
Whatever it's like, I don't think the R will be just an S3 in a Golf body. The AWD system is new for a start and so is is the ACC/ XDS set-up. Add a classier cabin, better steering and improved ergonomics and I think you've got the ingredients for a spectacular machine.
It is only the price value equation that's got me all worked-up.
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If it's just an S3 in a Golf body it'll be dull as dishwater to drive (but quick)
^^^^I would agree with that. Fast Audi's are accused of being a bit uninvolving and it would be a shame for the R to go the same way. I don't think it will though.
The biggest sticking point for me would be the fact that the engine isnt a V6 in the R - THAT is the thing I really envy when I see a MKV .:R32, not the AWD.
So for me, I think a re-mapped MKVI GTi would be enough, after all, my pretty poverty-spec R that I configured was £33k, which is bordering on ridiculous! :undecided:
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Whatever it's like, I don't think the R will be just an S3 in a Golf body. The AWD system is new for a start and so is is the ACC/ XDS set-up.
AWD system new?
I don't think so...its the same as the S3.
ACC may be new, but it's not as advanced as Audi's Magnetic Ride...which has the same effect....and that's been available on the TTs / S3s for years.
And you shouldn't / don't need XDS with 4WD...if you do, then there is a serious problem with the 4WD set-up.
So tell me again...how does the Golf AWD system differ from Gen 2 Haldex driven off an 02M gearbox, from the same engine...as used in the Audi S3?
Add a classier cabin, better steering and improved ergonomics and I think you've got the ingredients for a spectacular machine.
The ingredients, yes. We'll have to see if the finished article adds up. I hope so...I hope it's not another rock-solid, numb, S3.
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AWD system new?
I don't think so...its the same as the S3.
So tell me again...how does the Golf AWD system differ from Gen 2 Haldex driven off an 02M gearbox, from the same engine...as used in the Audi S3?
The AWD in the Mk6 Golf R is new(ish) - it's Haldex Gen IV without eLSD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction#Fourth_generation_-_2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction#Fourth_generation_-_2007)
It is also used in the facelift MY2009 Audi S3. Pre-facelift Audi S3 and Mk5 R32 used Gen II AFAIK:
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showpost.php?p=834906&postcount=25 (http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showpost.php?p=834906&postcount=25)
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When I got my GTI, I thought it was underpowered.
I had it remapped and now it goes as good as it sounds.
But I have traction issues now with the winter coming on.
So I need 4wd and wish I had the R.
But it's too expensive and looks vulgar.
Hope this helps :)
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Hope this helps :)
Monsieur, êtes-vous jaloux peut-être? :wink:
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35k for a Golf is a heck of a lot of money. We all have our own opinions but if I was spending that amount I would be looking at a 6 month - 1 year old Porsche Cayman S. Faster and more prestige - if that floats your boat.
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35k for a Golf is a heck of a lot of money. We all have our own opinions but if I was spending that amount I would be looking at a 6 month - 1 year old Porsche Cayman S. Faster and more prestige - if that floats your boat.
I wish people would stop compairing a new AWD hot hatch with room for 5 and low/medium running costs I.e. Golf R. With......
A used RWD sports car with 2 seats and high running costs I.e cayman S.
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I wish people would stop compairing a new AWD hot hatch with room for 5 and low/medium running costs I.e. Golf R. With......
A used RWD sports car with 2 seats and high running costs I.e cayman S.
+1
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The AWD in the Mk6 Golf R is new(ish) - it's Haldex Gen IV without eLSD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction#Fourth_generation_-_2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction#Fourth_generation_-_2007)
It is also used in the facelift MY2009 Audi S3. Pre-facelift Audi S3 and Mk5 R32 used Gen II AFAIK:
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showpost.php?p=834906&postcount=25 (http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showpost.php?p=834906&postcount=25)
So it's the same Haldex based semi-4WD system that was used on the Mk1 S3s/TTs etc...but with different controller and software? Which is basically what it is...same hardware with a modified Haldex controller. Hardly new. Just revised...and only just getting good at stopping understeer.
Out of interest...if the Mk6 R used 4th Gen Haldex...where did 3rd Gen Haldex go?
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How good is the Golf R32's AWD system, anyway? I guess it lacks the finesse of Audi's Torsen system, but Haldex has a good reputation. Can you drive reasonably quickly on winter roads with confidence if not controllability?
BTW, I'd hate to have a Porsche. For a start only two seats, so it is a non-starter, and the image is horrible. You certainly can't turn up to the office driving one. The running costs are horrendous. And the bog standard Cayman is not that much faster than the humble Golf in the performance department.
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I wish people would stop compairing a new AWD hot hatch with room for 5 and low/medium running costs I.e. Golf R. With......
A used RWD sports car with 2 seats and high running costs I.e cayman S.
+2!!
Everyone always resorts back to a USED Cayman. I'd rather boil my head than own a Porsche!
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Everyone always resorts back to a USED Cayman. I'd rather boil my head than own a Porsche!
I loved what Clarkson called them. :grin:
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How good is the Golf R32's AWD system, anyway? I guess it lacks the finesse of Audi's Torsen system, but Haldex has a good reputation. Can you drive reasonably quickly on winter roads with confidence if not controllability?
BTW, I'd hate to have a Porsche. For a start only two seats, so it is a non-starter, and the image is horrible. You certainly can't turn up to the office driving one. The running costs are horrendous. And the bog standard Cayman is not that much faster than the humble Golf in the performance department.
Alot has been said about haldex... usually by people who have never owned a car which has haldex (you know who I am talking about torsen boys :tongue:) the truth is its a fantastic system, only it requires the driver to know how to use it to its maximum potential.
Never have I heard a pro driver have a bad word to say about it, and if its good enough for the Veyron, then its good enough for my golf :smiley:
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How good is the Golf R32's AWD system, anyway? I guess it lacks the finesse of Audi's Torsen system, but Haldex has a good reputation. Can you drive reasonably quickly on winter roads with confidence if not controllability?
BTW, I'd hate to have a Porsche. For a start only two seats, so it is a non-starter, and the image is horrible. You certainly can't turn up to the office driving one. The running costs are horrendous. And the bog standard Cayman is not that much faster than the humble Golf in the performance department.
There is nothing wrong with the Porsche badge unless you are one of those people who listen to every word Jeremy Clarkson says. Strangely enough both Richard Hammond and James May are Porsche owners.
Two of my colleagues a neuro surgeon and a cardiologists drove a Cayman S. My best friend (a Cathay Pacific pilot) drives a Gen 2 911GT3. My Gf a solicitor drove a boxster. Professionals drives Porsche---discreet and don't like to shout what they own! Same reason why I bought a Golf GTI instead of a EVO!
Who drives Aston and R8. Footballers, singers etc..
The base Cayman might be slower than a Golf R or a chipped GTI. Definition of a fun car does not always equal to explosive straightline speed. There is steering feel, brake feel, gearchange and how a car behave on the lmit. Do you prefer understeer or oversteer or even a four wheel drift! Do you like a challenging drive etc..
Running cost. I bought my Gen 2 c2s in July 2008 (trading up from a 2006 cayman S) and is not due for service til July 2010 estimated cost £480. If you can resists flooring the car, it can still do 28-30mpg! Not bad for a 188mph car!
I must admit the R8 is awesome but can't leave it in any car park other than Hilton's!
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Alot has been said about haldex... usually by people who have never owned a car which has haldex (you know who I am talking about torsen boys :tongue:) the truth is its a fantastic system, only it requires the driver to know how to use it to its maximum potential.
Never have I heard a pro driver have a bad word to say about it, and if its good enough for the Veyron, then its good enough for my golf :smiley:
+1
As a system for maximizing grip on-road (not off-road), Haldex is absolutely fine. Having owned a Mk5 R32, I can attest to the planted feel it gives the car. Granted, there's no lairy power oversteer malarky. But, that's not the point.
The main advantage I found was the grip it gave from take-off in slippery conditions. For example, pulling off a junction in the R32 in slippery conditions. Just plant the throttle and it sorts itself out - no fuss.
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Alot has been said about haldex... usually by people who have never owned a car which has haldex (you know who I am talking about torsen boys :tongue:) the truth is its a fantastic system, only it requires the driver to know how to use it to its maximum potential.
Never have I heard a pro driver have a bad word to say about it, and if its good enough for the Veyron, then its good enough for my golf :smile,
Haldex is fine...but when you push it hard, it can get confused, it'll never be as predictable as Torsen...so always has the ability to do something stupid - I almost wiped my S3 out twice when it decided to switch torque quickly as I was mid-correction.
It's good for everyday stuff...but not great at 9/10th and above...and that, you can't drive round - it's down to the (relatively) poor chassis and Haldex programming.
In everyday use though, it's great...you don't notice it working, you can use more of the torque, sooner and more often, without worrying.
Sadly, fun...it isn't.
Efficient...but ultimately too efficient to the point of being boring.
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There is nothing wrong with the Porsche badge unless you are one of those people who listen to every word Jeremy Clarkson says. Strangely enough both Richard Hammond and James May are Porsche owners.
Two of my colleagues a neuro surgeon and a cardiologists drove a Cayman S. My best friend (a Cathay Pacific pilot) drives a Gen 2 911GT3. My Gf a solicitor drove a boxster. Professionals drives Porsche---discreet and don't like to shout what they own! Same reason why I bought a Golf GTI instead of a EVO!
Who drives Aston and R8. Footballers, singers etc..
The base Cayman might be slower than a Golf R or a chipped GTI. Definition of a fun car does not always equal to explosive straightline speed. There is steering feel, brake feel, gearchange and how a car behave on the lmit. Do you prefer understeer or oversteer or even a four wheel drift! Do you like a challenging drive etc..
Sadly, many people like to benchmark a Porsche as some sort of straight line performance icon…when, if people are honest, you don’t buy a Porsche for straight line stuff – you can buy an Evo for 1/3 of the price which is as quick. You buy one for the involvement and fun. But that’s lost on many people – usually those who have never driven / owned a Porsche!
You don’t get the same involvement or fun from a VAG hatchback – no matter how much power it has. Sure, you can get a Golf that’s faster – I’ve been whipped up the ¼ mile by Mk4 GTIs and TTs…but show them a challenging road with corners and the game changes…
If you do get the same involvement, then a Porsche isn’t for you…as quite simply, you aren’t up to doing it justice.
The Golf may well be almost as quick in normal use, and a damn site more practical, cheaper to run and maintain etc…but when you are in the mood it will always fail to impress – whereas a Cayman/911 – and even a Boxster – will come alive when you are pushing it hard.
Completely different cars, for completely different buyers.
No right or wrong.
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Alot has been said about haldex... usually by people who have never owned a car which has haldex (you know who I am talking about torsen boys :tongue:) the truth is its a fantastic system, only it requires the driver to know how to use it to its maximum potential.
Never have I heard a pro driver have a bad word to say about it, and if its good enough for the Veyron, then its good enough for my golf :smile,
Haldex is fine...but when you push it hard, it can get confused, it'll never be as predictable as Torsen...so always has the ability to do something stupid - I almost wiped my S3 out twice when it decided to switch torque quickly as I was mid-correction.
It's good for everyday stuff...but not great at 9/10th and above...and that, you can't drive round - it's down to the (relatively) poor chassis and Haldex programming.
In everyday use though, it's great...you don't notice it working, you can use more of the torque, sooner and more often, without worrying.
Sadly, fun...it isn't.
Efficient...but ultimately too efficient to the point of being boring.
Good old predictable torsen eh.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6XGQrZc90 :grin: :grin: :grin:
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No amount of 4WD trickery will be able to get a supertanker to corner at break-neck speed when a total clot is at the helm...you could see a big 'off' looking for a suitable location to unfold as the fool left his braking too late.
To be fair, it wouldn't have happened like that in a Haldex car...it would have understeered off before the apex!
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To be fair, it wouldn't have happened like that in a Haldex car...it would have understeered off before the apex!
Yes that's exactly what happens if you dont know how to drive one.
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To be fair, it wouldn't have happened like that in a Haldex car...it would have understeered off before the apex!
Yes that's exactly what happens if you dont know how to drive one.
Yep, im far from an amazing driver but following a 4motion through a bend recently he managed to feck it up well and truly from just thinking it would hold and go, i knew to break early, ride it out and power early though. Its not hard is it?
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To be fair, it wouldn't have happened like that in a Haldex car...it would have understeered off before the apex!
Yes that's exactly what happens if you dont know how to drive one.
Yep, im far from an amazing driver but following a 4motion through a bend recently he managed to feck it up well and truly from just thinking it would hold and go, i knew to break early, ride it out and power early though. Its not hard is it?
Exactly :wink:
Im not sure where this common myth that the R32 understeers is from, but if you brake late then even a bus will understeer.
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35k for a Golf is a heck of a lot of money. We all have our own opinions but if I was spending that amount I would be looking at a 6 month - 1 year old Porsche Cayman S. Faster and more prestige - if that floats your boat.
I wish people would stop compairing a new AWD hot hatch with room for 5 and low/medium running costs I.e. Golf R. With......
A used RWD sports car with 2 seats and high running costs I.e cayman S.
Low/medium running costs? 32 mpg, 225/40/18 tyres, group 17 insurance....... Take your point that about AWD versus RWD though.
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Low/medium running costs? 32 mpg, 225/40/18 tyres, group 17 insurance....... Take your point that about AWD versus RWD though.
yes definately low to medium when compaired to a porsche!
I personally will be getting a fixed price maintenance/tyre/service package which I guestimate
will cost for 36,000miles over 3 yrs :£60-80 per month.
This will cover all tyres ( due to wear and tear ) servicing and maintenance I.e. Brakes- discs and pads, clutch etc.......
My last car was an 07 rs4 avant with HIGH running costs!
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Yep, im far from an amazing driver but following a 4motion through a bend recently he managed to feck it up well and truly from just thinking it would hold and go, i knew to break early, ride it out and power early though. Its not hard is it?
It's not hard if you know the basics...and don't let the red mist of a trackday get the better of you.
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Im not sure where this common myth that the R32 understeers is from, but if you brake late then even a bus will understeer.
But, being honest, taking two otherwise similar cars - one with a V6 angled forward and carring more weight high up, the other a 4 cylinder, angled back and carrying less weight up around the head...simple physics tells you which is likely to understeer more.
Same driver, same driving style, the V6 will understeer more...it's as simple as that.
You can load the brakes later and harder on the 4 cylinder before understter sets in, compared to the V6...depending on driving style, that may or may not make you quicker.
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Low/medium running costs? 32 mpg, 225/40/18 tyres, group 17 insurance....... Take your point that about AWD versus RWD though.
Valid point...
My modified S3 went through 3 sets of tyres (1 x 17" set & 2 x 18" sets), 3 sets of front brakes (standard, grooved discs + EBC pads, LCR Brembos), 3 suspension bushes and one track rod end in 3 years and 13,000 miles, whilst giving an average of 24 MPG being driven hard.
My 911 went through one pair of rear tyres (18") and a full set of brakes (discs and pads, F&R) in 3 years and 13,000 miles, whilst averaging 20 MPG - this included a trip round Europe and 18 laps of the 'ring.
Both 4WD...
You tell me which was the more expensive to 'run' fuel and consumable wise?
A Golf R, driven hard, will eat tyres, brakes and bushes...and will do about 25 MPG. The servicing and insurance will always be cheaper though...
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My modified S3 went through 3 sets of tyres (1 x 17" set & 2 x 18" sets), 3 sets of front brakes (standard, grooved discs + EBC pads, LCR Brembos), 3 suspension bushes and one track rod end in 3 years and 13,000 miles
Now there's a driver who uses his car :grin: I'm guessing though that most of us buying the Golf R won't be driving them at the same level of 'fun' and 'involvement' that leads to this rate of wear and tear :wink:
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Now there's a driver who uses his car :grin: I'm guessing though that most of us buying the Golf R won't be driving them at the same level of 'fun' and 'involvement' that leads to this rate of wear and tear :wink:
I'm lucky in that I don't need to commute to work using the car...so the miles can be just for fun (and shopping!).
The miles I did in the S3 were road miles only...usually twisty, challengine back roads, but roads none the less....and I had proper fun doing them! :evil:
Thing is, my old S3 was 275-280 BHP and 330+ lb-ft...and it chewed bushes and tyres.
A re-map on a Golf R is going to give more power and torque than that...in a heavier car.
Used hard, I'd expect the wear to be similar.
People shouldn't expect to buy a 1500 Kg car with 265 BHP and plenty of torque, and not pay the costs of using it properly.
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This thread has degenerated into a second-hand Porsche versus new Golf R thread, not that I'm complaining, because it is all very interesting stuff. I think most people wouldn't mind owning a Porsche, but even if you manage to score a good second-hand example, the running costs and insurance will always be higher than with a hot Golf, Focus or other hatch. For me, the other real issue is the fact that my car has to do double duty as a family runabout. I'd be scared to let the wife lose with a Porker!
While a front wheel drive cars will, of course, always be inferior to a rear mid-engined sports car like the Cayman when it comes to dynamic feedback, you can still derive an enormous amount of pleasure from lesser hot hatches. In many ways, the Lancia Delta Integrale and Golf Mk III VR-6 I owned in the 80s and 90s were much more fun than the BMW M3 I had in the 00s.
Definitely leaning towards the Golf R at this stage. Bit worried by the fact that Haldex can get confused. But surely it is up to driving fast on winter roads?
Anybody else weighing up an R versus a standard GTI?
Oh... one other thing! I keep hearing that VW may introduce an even madder version of the Golf Mk VI before it is replaced by Mk VII. Anybody interested in a 2.5 litre 5-cylinder TFSI?
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NO chance of the 2.5 in the golf. Would be 40k+
Haldex is more than capable of handling that power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mmyC1H6Ldo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrCYX0RowGk
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Definitely leaning towards the Golf R at this stage. Bit worried by the fact that Haldex can get confused. But surely it is up to driving fast on winter roads?
Yeah, Haldex can get confused if you are on the limit...but for everyday it's brilliant.
No 4WD system is perfect in that respect...they can all do some funny things at some point.
But if driving fast on country roads is what you want...I'd suggest no form of fancy 4WD stystem is going to stop you ending up in a ditch...as they can't provide grip where there is none - in winter.
And on summer rated, wide rubber...the R is likely to be a very good sledge if the S3 is anything to go by...sure you can spin all 4 wheels and find twice the limited traction of a FWD/RWD car...but you still have big wide tyres when you brake.
Anybody else weighing up an R versus a standard GTI?
Yeah, if the R is better than a GTI...which only time will tell.
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Not considering a standard GTI, but a modified one, After reading some positive reviews of the Scirocco R and people's comments here and in the MkV section I reckon a GTI with a remap, H&R springs and 19" BBS wheels would be a good alternative to the R. Cheaper, more individual, just as fast. To be honest the only thing putting me off is the traction disadvantage with FWD and 260+bhp.
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Im not sure where this common myth that the R32 understeers is from, but if you brake late then even a bus will understeer.
But, being honest, taking two otherwise similar cars - one with a V6 angled forward and carring more weight high up, the other a 4 cylinder, angled back and carrying less weight up around the head...simple physics tells you which is likely to understeer more.
Same driver, same driving style, the V6 will understeer more...it's as simple as that.
You can load the brakes later and harder on the 4 cylinder before understter sets in, compared to the V6...depending on driving style, that may or may not make you quicker.
Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.
Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.
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Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.
Do you understand the term 'trail braking'?
Braking so hard and late (to the apex) you force the back to swing out?
After nearly 20 years of trackdays, Sprints and Hillclimbs, I can assure you braking right to the point of locking up inducing understeer is not braking too late, or making a mistake...it's getting a car into a corner as fast as you can, so you can get on the power hard with the minimum of lock on.
So there is a point in braking late into a bend...but for this perfectly valid technique to work, you need the front not to plough on...which means it's not ideal with a damn great boat anchor in the front...which is why I don't like VR6s and their understeer...because you can't trail brake them easily.
Of course, driving like that can only be done if you have enough mechnical grip to pull you through the corner...where the Haldex based 4WD system again fails...as it is likely to have you ploughing off under power.
It's also easy to over-cook the braking and slide off...where having a heavy engine counts against you (again).
Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.
That's power understeer...
Different to plain old nose weight induced understeer....which any V6 will do more than a 4 cylinder. That's physics..enothing to do with driving style..
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A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.
Pushed hard the R32 is quicker point to point because of haldex over the lighter 'fronted' GTI. The vast difference in track times shows this.
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Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.
Do you understand the term 'trail braking'?
Braking so hard and late (to the apex) you force the back to swing out?
After nearly 20 years of trackdays, Sprints and Hillclimbs, I can assure you braking right to the point of locking up inducing understeer is not braking too late, or making a mistake...it's getting a car into a corner as fast as you can, so you can get on the power hard with the minimum of lock on.
So there is a point in braking late into a bend...but for this perfectly valid technique to work, you need the front not to plough on...which means it's not ideal with a damn great boat anchor in the front...which is why I don't like VR6s and their understeer...because you can't trail brake them easily.
Of course, driving like that can only be done if you have enough mechnical grip to pull you through the corner...where the Haldex based 4WD system again fails...as it is likely to have you ploughing off under power.
It's also easy to over-cook the braking and slide off...where having a heavy engine counts against you (again).
Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.
That's power understeer...
Different to plain old nose weight induced understeer....which any V6 will do more than a 4 cylinder. That's physics..enothing to do with driving style..
The simple mistake here is that you are trying to drive it like a FWD. You have to adjust your driving style once you know how the car will react and handle in certain situations. Another thing that I found (and this is not an understatement) that switching off the esp on the R32 makes it a TOTALLY different car. Somthing that not many people do, yet very quickly pass judgement.
... and to add to what jules said, the R32 was still considerably quicker than the ED30 around the TG track despite a fairly equal power/weight ratio.
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The simple mistake here is that you are trying to drive it like a FWD. You have to adjust your driving style once you know how the car will react and handle in certain situations. Another thing that I found (and this is not an understatement) that switching off the esp on the R32 makes it a TOTALLY different car. Somthing that not many people do, yet very quickly pass judgement.
... and to add to what jules said, the R32 was still considerably quicker than the ED30 around the TG track despite a fairly equal power/weight ratio.
I had an S3 for 3 1/2 years...properly sorted with a decent chassis...so I know how to drive a Haldex 4WD..and you can drive it like a FWD if you want - as long as it hasn't got a VR6 in the front!
I agree about turning the ESP off...I was taking that as a given for anyone who actually wants to drive their car.
The fact remains, all that weight in the nose understeers more than a car will less weight in the nose.
Dress it up however you like, and try to drive round it as much as you like...but it's physics.
Maybe the Golf R will handle properly, and not need the driver to adjust to compensate for a bad design.
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A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.
It can help....but it's not as good as sorting out the front suspension and giving the car some proper grip (camber, caster, toe etc) and then letting the standard Haldex controller work properly.
Trying to give some oversteer to kill understeer is a cheap fix...not a decent solution to an imperfect design.
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Im no where near a good enough driver to push the haldex beyond its limits so for me the advantages over FWD are huge! A friend has the same opinion as you on haldex, its why he bought a subaru sti 330s :smiley:
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A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.
It can help....but it's not as good as sorting out the front suspension and giving the car some proper grip (camber, caster, toe etc) and then letting the standard Haldex controller work properly.
Trying to give some oversteer to kill understeer is a cheap fix...not a decent solution to an imperfect design.
You are probably a little luckier up there with the roads, as down here it is near on impossible to trouble the haldex :undecided:
Ideal for normal road use... agreeably not the best for getting around a track.
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Stig never had any trouble with the grip/traction of the haldex, if i remember right they said they were impressed how the R just keeps digging in. :evil: I know its easy to keep comparing top gear track times but its its a course and driver everybody knows and its common knowledge r32 is underpowered and overweight but it beat or got very close to alot of faster cars and this was due to the haldex of the r32.
P.s trail braking is good for Fwd but not much use for 4wd
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Anyone know if the latest generation of haldex still become 2wd under braking?
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Stig never had any trouble with the grip/traction of the haldex, if i remember right they said they were impressed how the R just keeps digging in. :evil: I know its easy to keep comparing top gear track times but its its a course and driver everybody knows and its common knowledge r32 is underpowered and overweight but it beat or got very close to alot of faster cars and this was due to the haldex of the r32.
P.s trail braking is good for Fwd but not much use for 4wd
Which was kind of what I was getting at... you have to adjust your driving accordingly to the type of car you are driving. Not that most people will be tracking their daily... but the R32 is more of a GT than a chuck-it-around corners kind of car. :smiley:
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P.s trail braking is good for Fwd but not much use for 4wd
I beg to differ...it's no use on a fixed split 4WD system...and limited use on Torsen...but on Haldex where little torque is going to the rear if the front has grip, it's ideal, and works.
My S3 was set up to be driven hard, brake hard, turn in hard, trail braking...and it didn't understeer - as long as you drove it acordingly.
Sadly, Mk4/Mk5/Mk6 platforms don't allow enogh negative camber to be dialed in to really sort out the understeer without resorting to trail braking...in my experience.
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Which was kind of what I was getting at... you have to adjust your driving accordingly to the type of car you are driving. Not that most people will be tracking their daily... but the R32 is more of a GT than a chuck-it-around corners kind of car. :smiley:
Two different points here...
Haldex in itself is good - not perfect - but good.
You have to learn to adapt to that, for sure, in order to get the best out of it...same in the Golf R no doubt.
R32 nose weight is something some people will always struggle with - no matter how you use it to drive the wheels.
I can't get on with them...I can't accept or drve round the understeer.
Doesn't matter whether it's a 2.8/2.9 12v or a 2.8/3.2 24v...they all do it.
It's weight and physics.
A lighter engine (2.0 TSI) with Haldex is a step forward in my book..the drive you can adapt to, with less understeer.
Win-win.
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Which was kind of what I was getting at... you have to adjust your driving accordingly to the type of car you are driving. Not that most people will be tracking their daily... but the R32 is more of a GT than a chuck-it-around corners kind of car. :smiley:
Two different points here...
Haldex in itself is good - not perfect - but good.
You have to learn to adapt to that, for sure, in order to get the best out of it...same in the Golf R no doubt.
R32 nose weight is something some people will always struggle with - no matter how you use it to drive the wheels.
I can't get on with them...I can't accept or drve round the understeer.
Doesn't matter whether it's a 2.8/2.9 12v or a 2.8/3.2 24v...they all do it.
It's weight and physics.
A lighter engine (2.0 TSI) with Haldex is a step forward in my book..the drive you can adapt to, with less understeer.
Win-win.
no doubt about that :wink: ...but is it a worthwhile swap for a V6 rumble??? :undecided:
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P.s trail braking is good for Fwd but not much use for 4wd
I beg to differ...it's no use on a fixed split 4WD system...and limited use on Torsen...but on Haldex where little torque is going to the rear if the front has grip, it's ideal, and works.
My S3 was set up to be driven hard, brake hard, turn in hard, trail braking...and it didn't understeer - as long as you drove it acordingly.
Sadly, Mk4/Mk5/Mk6 platforms don't allow enogh negative camber to be dialed in to really sort out the understeer without resorting to trail braking...in my experience.
im no expert but i see what you are sayin, but isnt one of the benifts of trail braking is to shift the weight to the front to allow the front tyres to grip better in the bend allowing faster cornering, this maybe were the extra weight of the v6 may be benifcial in which the r32 just grips and grips if you can master the entrance of the corner
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no doubt about that :wink: ...but is it a worthwhile swap for a V6 rumble??? :undecided:
Ahh...that's the question...
Noise...or handling?
Sod the noise...
V6 doesn't sound as good as a 16v on ITBs anyway...so it's not all that! :evil:
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im no expert but i see what you are sayin, but isnt one of the benifts of trail braking is to shift the weight to the front to allow the front tyres to grip better in the bend allowing faster cornering, this maybe were the extra weight of the v6 may be benifcial in which the r32 just grips and grips if you can master the entrance of the corner
Not on a front engined car, no.
In a 911 or similar...then yes, you brake late and hard to bring the weight forward and add grip to aid turn in.
In a predominantly FWD, front engined car you hit the limit of what you can expect the front wheels to do quite quickly (braking, turning etc) so trail braking allows you to send the weight of the rear outwards - almost like trying to promote oversteer, but with no driven wheels.
You want the rear to stasrt to rotate, or come round on you, so you can grab a half turn of opposite lock (straightening the wheels) and get the power back on hard.
In my experience, more nose weight is never a good thing in a front engined car...it only ever leads to more understeer.
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R without a doubt if you can afford it.
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im no expert but i see what you are sayin, but isnt one of the benifts of trail braking is to shift the weight to the front to allow the front tyres to grip better in the bend allowing faster cornering, this maybe were the extra weight of the v6 may be benifcial in which the r32 just grips and grips if you can master the entrance of the corner
Not on a front engined car, no.
In a 911 or similar...then yes, you brake late and hard to bring the weight forward and add grip to aid turn in.
In a predominantly FWD, front engined car you hit the limit of what you can expect the front wheels to do quite quickly (braking, turning etc) so trail braking allows you to send the weight of the rear outwards - almost like trying to promote oversteer, but with no driven wheels.
You want the rear to stasrt to rotate, or come round on you, so you can grab a half turn of opposite lock (straightening the wheels) and get the power back on hard.
In my experience, more nose weight is never a good thing in a front engined car...it only ever leads to more understeer.
Which is why inever understood why you would want to trail brake in a AWD car. you better off getting back on the power to bring the back end round.
for what its woirth the the R32 is actually better balanced than the GTI
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Which is why inever understood why you would want to trail brake in a AWD car. you better off getting back on the power to bring the back end round.
On a fixed split 4WD system with a rearward bias, yes.
Like on a Subaru STI with the centre diff wound back...sure.
But on a predomanantly FWD based system, where - if the front has traction - there can only be 50% torque to the rear anyway...you just push wide equally from both driven axles..
Adding more throttle won't always bring the back round on a Haldex car.
for what its woirth the the R32 is actually better balanced than the GTI
Better balanced how?
It has more weight than needed front an rear...yeah.
It's not the sharpest chassis though is it?
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I must be one of the few people who are pleased at the lack of V6.
I never bought an R32 because of the high fuel / tax costs. The new R is win win for me... great performance, great looks and better running costs.
OK, the noise won't be as good, but you can't win them all!
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I must be one of the few people who are pleased at the lack of V6.
I never bought an R32 because of the high fuel / tax costs. The new R is win win for me... great performance, great looks and better running costs.
OK, the noise won't be as good, but you can't win them all!
The problem is you had the S3 if 100 pound more a year tax was a problem and about 4-5mpg less round town :rolleyes:
Now theres an S3 or an S3 with a VW badge.
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Now theres an S3 or an S3 with a VW badge.
Or, alternately:
An 'S3' but without having to drive round in the suburban equivelant of a large pen*s, trying to impress all the neighbours with your Audi.
I wouldn't have an Audi parked on my driveway until the image improves....it's that bad around here.
1 x Audi on driveway = good.
2 x Audi on driveway = better - and all the better for the stupid suburban 'best dressed driveway' competition.
No thanks..
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Now theres an S3 or an S3 with a VW badge.
Or, alternately:
An 'S3' but without having to drive round in the suburban equivelant of a large pen*s, trying to impress all the neighbours with your Audi.
I wouldn't have an Audi parked on my driveway until the image improves....it's that bad around here.
1 x Audi on driveway = good.
2 x Audi on driveway = better - and all the better for the stupid suburban 'best dressed driveway' competition.
No thanks..
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
That's funny.
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:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
That's funny.
Sadly, around here, it's true.
All the saddos were in BMWs 5 years ago...then SUVs 2 years ago...now it's Audis.
Never in the garage - can't impress the neighbours with ones Audis locked away...
And normally an S-Line. Looks just like an S/Rs you know? :rolleyes:
Click. Aim. Bang.
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All the saddos were in BMWs 5 years ago...then SUVs 2 years ago...now it's Audis.
Lol, it's exactly the same over here in France. Morons sans frontières :rolleyes:
As for the R/GTI debate: if the R looked exactly the same as the GTI, I'd get it, if only for the 4wd. But IMHO, it looks vulgar, so I wouldn't.
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But IMHO, it looks vulgar, so I wouldn't.
Most people complain that the R doesn't look different enough to a GT to warrant its huge price tag.
Personally I feel the R is more subtle than the GTI.
At the time (almost 3 years ago) when I was buying my car, an ED30 with xenons, Highline, center armrest and rear tints was a few £'s away from £23k. The R32 (which had the xenons, highline and armrest as standard) was going to cost me £23850. However, an S3 was going to cost almost £29k - which wasn't an option back then.
Now I'm sitting looking at these numbers, the new R had better be good since its costing almost £12k more than my ED30!! Ok, it has a LOT more options specced, but that only covers about £5k :shocked:
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Now theres an S3 or an S3 with a VW badge.
Or, alternately:
An 'S3' but without having to drive round in the suburban equivelant of a large pen*s, trying to impress all the neighbours with your Audi.
I wouldn't have an Audi parked on my driveway until the image improves....it's that bad around here.
1 x Audi on driveway = good.
2 x Audi on driveway = better - and all the better for the stupid suburban 'best dressed driveway' competition.
No thanks..
You wouldnt buy a very good car, which an audi is, because of image :rolleyes:
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You wouldnt buy a very good car, which an audi is, because of image :rolleyes:
I wouldn't buy an S3 because they look horrible! Is that the same thing?
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You wouldnt buy a very good car, which an audi is, because of image :rolleyes:
I wouldn't buy an S3 because they look horrible! Is that the same thing?
Looks are subjective but its fair enough not to buy something because you dont like how it looks yes.
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Looks are subjective but its fair enough not to buy something because you dont like how it looks yes.
Its nothing to do with the Audi brand. Apart from Top Gear saying all Audi drivers are w@nkers - I have nothing against them!
I wouldn't buy an S3 cause it looks horrid. I wouldn't buy a Focus RS because it looks severely chavvy. I wouldn't buy an Astra VXR because it looks cheap. I could go on and on!
On a side note - did anyone know that CHAV is an acronym for Council House And Violence?!
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Looks are subjective but its fair enough not to buy something because you dont like how it looks yes.
Its nothing to do with the Audi brand. Apart from Top Gear saying all Audi drivers are w@nkers - I have nothing against them!
I wouldn't buy an S3 cause it looks horrid. I wouldn't buy a Focus RS because it looks severely chavvy. I wouldn't buy an Astra VXR because it looks cheap. I could go on and on!
On a side note - did anyone know that CHAV is an acronym for Council House And Violence?!
Yeah it was made up bu the papers as 'chavs' have been a round for years. When i was twelve i used to wear trackies etc as everyone did, so i was a 'chav', we were called townies though then.
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You wouldnt buy a very good car, which an audi is, because of image :rolleyes:
A Hyundai i20 is a good car. Would I buy one of them?
No.
I've had Audis...they are very well built etc...but assumiung the S3 was so good that I got over the image problem, then yes, I'd buy one.
But it's not.
It's quick, but the suspension has little feel, the steering even less and it's boring as hell to drive hard.
So would I buy an imperfect - but well built car - with an image problem?
No, I wouldn't.
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I wouldn't buy an S3 because they look horrible! Is that the same thing?
I find them bland. Especially when Audi insist on making the S line look so similar...and that appeals to those who want suburban one-upmanship....all the looks with little to back it up.
Had Audi given the 8P S3 some bespoke panels - like the 8L S3 - then I'm sure I would be more interested. As it is, I'm not and have never wanted to own one.
Sadly, the Golf R doesn't look different enough from the GTI to make me look twice either...I prefer the look of the GTI.
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Its funny all this talk of BMW drivers moving to Audi's. When the mk5 GTI first came out there was a flood of BMW drivers moved to it. :grin: One of the reasons i had second thoughts about it. :wink: