Can't make up my mind: R or GTI? Please help.

[mac7]

Not considering a standard GTI, but a modified one, After reading some positive reviews of the Scirocco R and people's comments here and in the MkV section I reckon a GTI with a remap, H&R springs and 19" BBS wheels would be a good alternative to the R. Cheaper, more individual, just as fast. To be honest the only thing putting me off is the traction disadvantage with FWD and 260+bhp.

[R32UK]

Im not sure where this common myth that the R32 understeers is from, but if you brake late then even a bus will understeer.

But, being honest, taking two otherwise similar cars - one with a V6 angled forward and carring more weight high up, the other a 4 cylinder, angled back and carrying less weight up around the head...simple physics tells you which is likely to understeer more.

Same driver, same driving style, the V6 will understeer more...it's as simple as that.
You can load the brakes later and harder on the 4 cylinder before understter sets in, compared to the V6...depending on driving style, that may or may not make you quicker.

Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.

Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.

[Ess_Three]

Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.

Do you understand the term 'trail braking'?
Braking so hard and late  (to the apex) you force the back to swing out?

After nearly 20 years of trackdays, Sprints and Hillclimbs, I can assure you braking right to the point of locking up inducing understeer is not braking too late, or making a mistake...it's getting a car into a corner as fast as you can, so you can get on the power hard with the minimum of lock on.

So there is a point in braking late into a bend...but for this perfectly valid technique to work, you need the front not to plough on...which means it's not ideal with a damn great boat anchor in the front...which is why I don't like VR6s and their understeer...because you can't trail brake them easily.

Of course, driving like that can only be done if you have enough mechnical grip to pull you through the corner...where the Haldex based 4WD system again fails...as it is likely to have you ploughing off under power.

It's also easy to over-cook the braking and slide off...where having a heavy engine counts against you (again).

Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.

That's power understeer...
Different to plain old nose weight induced understeer....which any V6 will do more than a 4 cylinder. That's physics..enothing to do with driving style..

[Jkctr]

A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.

Pushed hard the R32 is quicker point to point because of haldex over the lighter 'fronted' GTI. The vast difference in track times shows this.

[R32UK]

Thats where you making a mistake... there is no point in braking late into a bend. Once the front end loses grip the power is sent to the back to correct the understeer. I doubt any good driver induces understeer whilst braking.... Infact if you are then your simply braking too late.

Do you understand the term 'trail braking'?
Braking so hard and late  (to the apex) you force the back to swing out?

After nearly 20 years of trackdays, Sprints and Hillclimbs, I can assure you braking right to the point of locking up inducing understeer is not braking too late, or making a mistake...it's getting a car into a corner as fast as you can, so you can get on the power hard with the minimum of lock on.

So there is a point in braking late into a bend...but for this perfectly valid technique to work, you need the front not to plough on...which means it's not ideal with a damn great boat anchor in the front...which is why I don't like VR6s and their understeer...because you can't trail brake them easily.

Of course, driving like that can only be done if you have enough mechnical grip to pull you through the corner...where the Haldex based 4WD system again fails...as it is likely to have you ploughing off under power.

It's also easy to over-cook the braking and slide off...where having a heavy engine counts against you (again).

Understeer is usually caused by the front tyres pushing wide when struggling for grip under acceleration... Thats what the R32 does not suffer from. As a dead weight then you are correct, the heavier car will always carry its weight forwards under braking.

That's power understeer...
Different to plain old nose weight induced understeer....which any V6 will do more than a 4 cylinder. That's physics..enothing to do with driving style..

The simple mistake here is that you are trying to drive it like a FWD. You have to adjust your driving style once you know how the car will react and handle in certain situations. Another thing that I found (and this is not an understatement) that switching off the esp on the R32 makes it a TOTALLY different car. Somthing that not many people do, yet very quickly pass judgement.

... and to add to what jules said, the R32 was still considerably quicker than the ED30 around the TG track despite a fairly equal power/weight ratio.

[Ess_Three]

The simple mistake here is that you are trying to drive it like a FWD. You have to adjust your driving style once you know how the car will react and handle in certain situations. Another thing that I found (and this is not an understatement) that switching off the esp on the R32 makes it a TOTALLY different car. Somthing that not many people do, yet very quickly pass judgement.

... and to add to what jules said, the R32 was still considerably quicker than the ED30 around the TG track despite a fairly equal power/weight ratio.

I had an S3 for 3 1/2 years...properly sorted with a decent chassis...so I know how to drive a Haldex 4WD..and you can drive it like a FWD if you want - as long as it hasn't got a VR6 in the front!
I agree about turning the ESP off...I was taking that as a given for anyone who actually wants to drive their car.

The fact remains, all that weight in the nose understeers more than a car will less weight in the nose.
Dress it up however you like, and try to drive round it as much as you like...but it's physics.

Maybe the Golf R will handle properly, and not need the driver to adjust to compensate for a bad design.

[Ess_Three]

A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.

It can help....but it's not as good as sorting out the front suspension and giving the car some proper grip (camber, caster, toe etc) and then letting the standard Haldex controller work properly.

Trying to give some oversteer to kill understeer is a cheap fix...not a decent solution to an imperfect design.

[Jkctr]

Im no where near a good enough driver to push the haldex beyond its limits so for me the advantages over FWD are huge! A friend has the same opinion as you on haldex, its why he bought a subaru sti 330s 

[R32UK]

A haldex controller can help a lot of that though, will divert more power to the rears to push the heavy nose through as an offset.

It can help....but it's not as good as sorting out the front suspension and giving the car some proper grip (camber, caster, toe etc) and then letting the standard Haldex controller work properly.

Trying to give some oversteer to kill understeer is a cheap fix...not a decent solution to an imperfect design.

You are probably a little luckier up there with the roads, as down here it is near on impossible to trouble the haldex

Ideal for normal road use... agreeably not the best for getting around a track.

[carl1]

Stig never had any trouble with the grip/traction of the haldex, if i remember right they said they were impressed how the R just keeps digging in. I know its easy to keep comparing top gear track times but its its a course and driver everybody knows and its common knowledge r32 is underpowered and overweight but it beat or got very close to alot of faster cars and this was due to the haldex of the r32.

P.s trail braking is good for Fwd but not much use for 4wd