Manual or DSG?

[Aur]

I am curious of how many % of cars capable of having DSG are so equipped and of these how many are expierencing mechantronic faults. If VAG have so much confidence why doesn't the unit come with a 10 year parts warranty. Personally I am leaning towards DSG but not a potential £2k bill.

[Max Q]

Um, but it was doing what you told it to do... you just weren't telling it the right things because obviously you don't understand how to use a DSG. I guess it's a case of someone blaming the tools for his own mistakes.

Umm...well the thing is, when 'I' decide I want that I want 4th gear for driving 'my' car on a road I know, and overtaking in a manner I am happy with...4th is the blo*dy gear I expect the gearbox to stay in...whether manual or DSG.
I don't want the ECU deciding I my selecting 4th isn't correct and selecting 3rd.
I want 4th...
I'm in manual...
I've dropped two gears manually...
I accellerate in 4th because I only want 4th gear accelleration, but I want full throttle, 4th gear accelleration - as I would in a manual car...but no, DSG wants 3rd.

I fail to see how me selecting 4th was me in some way not understanding a gearbox (manual or DSG in manual...it's still 4th)..nor do I see how your comment stands about me blaming the 'tool' for my mistakes.
It's my car, I'm driving and I want 4th...what's so hard about staying in 4th?

At least with a manual it stays in the gear I want.

The point people are making is that it would have stayed in 4th for you had you not mashed the pedal into the kickdown switch - thereby asking the box to kickdown for immediate acceleration. If you just wanted a full throttle run in gear you just select the gear and push the accelerator all the way as far as the kickdown switch and not beyond it. This is full throttle on a DSG car and it does take a bit of feel and learning for your right foot. You can feel a definite resistance when you get to the kickdown. The car won't kickdown and you'll get your full throttle run in 4th.

[JonnyG]

I am curious of how many % of cars capable of having DSG are so equipped and of these how many are expierencing mechantronic faults. If VAG have so much confidence why doesn't the unit come with a 10 year parts warranty. Personally I am leaning towards DSG but not a potential £2k bill.

From what I've read,  the VW DSG problem is related to a specific (faulty) batch of Mechatronic units (something to do with a Teflon coated solenoid switch or something, where the Teflon coating comes off). There is a recall in America :

Linky

[Ess_Three]

But that's the thing; you are expecting the DSG in manual mode to behave like a fully manual box and it isn't, it's a DSG in manual mode. Your expectations were wrong because you didn't know how a DSG was supposed to work. If you don't like a kick down that's fine, I can accept that, but don't blame the box for a design feature that you didn't know about and you initiated by putting your foot down when, as others have stated, it's something that can be avoided if you are aware of it.

Yes, I was, you are correct.
In Auto, I'd expect it to do what it wants...but in manual, I was expecting a 6 speed automated manual type gearbox...I expected it to behave like a manual, when in the mode described as 'manual'.
And it didn't...

For me, that was the deal breaker.
I understand that for others, it's no big deal, or they'll drive round it, or have it rtemapped out...but for me...it's a simple 'no thanks'.

I shouldn't have to 'avoid' things in 'manual'.
Manual should mean manual...and in the case of the DSG, it doesn't.

[Ess_Three]

The point people are making is that it would have stayed in 4th for you had you not mashed the pedal into the kickdown switch - thereby asking the box to kickdown for immediate acceleration. If you just wanted a full throttle run in gear you just select the gear and push the accelerator all the way as far as the kickdown switch and not beyond it. This is full throttle on a DSG car and it does take a bit of feel and learning for your right foot. You can feel a definite resistance when you get to the kickdown. The car won't kickdown and you'll get your full throttle run in 4th.

I understand the point.
What I don't understand is why in Manual, does 'it' decide that it should kick down...if I want full throttle (pedal hard down) at relatively modest speeds to allow the torque to build and take ma past an obstacle, why does DSG overwrite that decision with a dropdown?

I was told - and fully expected - manual to mean manual - regardless of the amount of throtte travel asked for....and that's not the case.


I'm sure some love it, or live with it...but I can't / won't.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

And as a final couple of points, if the DSG were so 'fragile', then why is it used on the Bugatti Veyron, and why is it that Porsche are now using it too - the PDK. 

Would that be the same Bugatti Veyron that uses the Haldex???    Maybe we should save that discussion for another day! 

Yes, but the Veyron only uses a Haldex to send power to the front axle (the same as the Audi R8).  But both use a Torsen inside the rear axle (instead of a conventional open diff). 

Score draw?   

[Aur]

From what I've read,  the VW DSG problem is related to a specific (faulty) batch of Mechatronic units (something to do with a Teflon coated solenoid switch or something, where the Teflon coating comes off). There is a recall in America :

Linky

Wow. Thanks for that. A pretty recent recall and a major one at that.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

It's my car, I'm driving and I want 4th...what's so hard about staying in 4th?

That's one aspect of DSG that a lot of people would like to see changed (i.e kickdown should be disabled in M mode). 

Why?  I just don't get that - because to enable the kickdown, you have to press the accelerator pedal against a noticable step in resistance - and if you can't feel that through your right foot, then maybe you should sell the car, and use the bus!  

There are DSG remaps available that will disable kickdown in M mode (as well as other tweaks), so it is possible.

Agree.  But even in manual mode, kickdown can be exceedingly usefull if used correctly.

With practice it is possible to "feel" the point at which kickdown is about to kick in, and you can learn to avoid kickdown, but the natural thing to do when overtaking is mash your right foot to the floor         

Well then you only have yourself to blame.  The kickdown switch is very noticeable.  

And don't forget, the DSG has an 'intelligent kickdown' too.  

[Ess_Three]

Well then you only have yourself to blame.  The kickdown switch is very noticeable.  

And don't forget, the DSG has an 'intelligent kickdown' too.  

It can have as much 'intelligent' bits and pieces as VAG deem appriopriate...but it still doesn't axcuse manual not being manual.

DSG isn't - mechanically speaking - an automatic gearbox in the accepted sense, it's an automated manual...so why when you choose to control the logic using your brain, and not an electronic one, can't it just leave you to it, as other manufacturers automated manuals do?


In auto, I would be happy for the ECU to use as much learning and 'intelligent' calculations as it sees fit..but in manual, it should move to the correct gear when you ask it to (within the mechanical limits of the engine) - which it doesn't...it moves when it wants to (you can't just tap straight down 3 gears if the engine revs and road speed make it safe to do so, as it'll drop one, then wait, then wait again) and should remain in the gear 'you' selected until 'you' change it.
That would be what manual means.
You shouldn't have to worry about pressing the pedal down too far in manual either...it should just stay in the damn gear yoiu select. End of.

In auto, fine...do what it wants and you'd learn to adapt to it.
But in manual, it should mean manual. And it doesn't.

[Max Q]

Well then you only have yourself to blame.  The kickdown switch is very noticeable.  

And don't forget, the DSG has an 'intelligent kickdown' too.  

It can have as much 'intelligent' bits and pieces as VAG deem appriopriate...but it still doesn't axcuse manual not being manual.

DSG isn't - mechanically speaking - an automatic gearbox in the accepted sense, it's an automated manual...so why when you choose to control the logic using your brain, and not an electronic one, can't it just leave you to it, as other manufacturers automated manuals do?


In auto, I would be happy for the ECU to use as much learning and 'intelligent' calculations as it sees fit..but in manual, it should move to the correct gear when you ask it to (within the mechanical limits of the engine) - which it doesn't...it moves when it wants to (you can't just tap straight down 3 gears if the engine revs and road speed make it safe to do so, as it'll drop one, then wait, then wait again) and should remain in the gear 'you' selected until 'you' change it.
That would be what manual means.
You shouldn't have to worry about pressing the pedal down too far in manual either...it should just stay in the damn gear yoiu select. End of.

In auto, fine...do what it wants and you'd learn to adapt to it.
But in manual, it should mean manual. And it doesn't.

It will drop down 3 gears almost instantly by tapping the paddle 3 times if the rpm allows. You certainly don't have to wait for each gear like you describe. An argument can be made for whether the kickdown function should be available in manual or not. However, with a bit of experience you'll know where full throttle is and where the kickdown starts.