Manual or DSG?

[GrantUK]

It will drop down 3 gears almost instantly by tapping the paddle 3 times if the rpm allows. You certainly don't have to wait for each gear like you describe.

Well, it wasn't as instant as I'd have expected...probably a couple of seconds. Not what I was expecting based on driving other automated manuals (E-Gear, PDK, SMG etc)...I didn't imagine it, that's for sure.

Well I don't know what rpm you were at and what gears you were attempting to flick through, but you can take it from me, a DSG owner for 2 years, that the car will drop gears as fast as you can hit the paddles. I just tried it this evening on my way home from work.

I can vouch for that - the changes are instantaneous.

[Ess_Three]

Well I don't know what rpm you were at and what gears you were attempting to flick through, but you can take it from me, a DSG owner for 2 years, that the car will drop gears as fast as you can hit the paddles. I just tried it this evening on my way home from work.

And you can take it from me, that the Mk6 GTI I drove didn't...and I tried it several times.
I want click, click, click.
It went down one, delay, down another, long delay, down a gain.

[Ess_Three]

But the kick down button is a manual function. It only operates when you hit it. You're talking as if the car decides when to drop down and it doesn't. It's no different than if you put your hand on a paddle and change down but you're using a foot instead.

I make my living controlling processes...and in Manual, nothing happens unless the operator (or driver) tells it to.
In Automatic, the controller (ECU) looks after it.

Kickdown, in MANUAL is not a MANUAL function, its an AUTOMATIC function...manual should mean MANUAL and should remove kickdown completely and stay in the gear you have selected. If the ECU changes down when in MANUAL it's not in MANUAL as I'd expect it to be.
That's the point I'm making.

I didn't click the paddle to change gear because I disn't want any other gear than the one I had selected...and that shouldn't change regardless of the position of my right foot.

[Max Q]

Well I don't know what rpm you were at and what gears you were attempting to flick through, but you can take it from me, a DSG owner for 2 years, that the car will drop gears as fast as you can hit the paddles. I just tried it this evening on my way home from work.

And you can take it from me, that the Mk6 GTI I drove didn't...and I tried it several times.
I want click, click, click.
It went down one, delay, down another, long delay, down a gain.

Well then there was something wrong with the car you drove. You have DSG owners categorically telling you that is not how the car behaves.

[Jkctr]

20 pages 

If he doesnt like it he doesnt like it! Its an option for a reason; some people wont like it!

This section needs a mod as these threads are pointless and this will not help anyone new to here, if anything it will put them right of the forum!

Lets move on guys, this was all done in the mk5 section a long time ago and, although im sure it will happen in the mk7 section, lets try and buck the trend and cut it short 

[mac7]

This section needs a mod as these threads are pointless and this will not help anyone new to here, if anything it will put them right of the forum!

As someone trying to decide whether to have DSG I've actually found this 'debate' very interesting and informative. This thread plus a search of the Mk5 forum have provided a huge amount of useful information. Having been out this morning and actually driven a DSG I thought I'd throw in my opinion.

Although the drive was only a half hour, I have to say I was very, very impressed with the system. As an automatic with occasional use as a manual it seems almost perfect. In heavy traffic it would be ideal - just like any auto box - and I understand why many people would choose it. However, like Ess_Three I'm not convinced by the manual mode. In my opinion he's right - manual should mean total manual override without possibility of intervention of the computer.

I understand the arguement regarding the kickdown switch being a manual control and I'm sure I would gain the finesse needed to prevent it activating but really the kickdown is a throttle position switch for the benefit of the ECU when in automatic mode and in my opinion should be disabled in manual mode.

It's not great engineering - two paddles and a centre lever really are more than adequate for manual control of the system. To include a fourth by keeping kickdown activated in manual mode is too much. They should keep it simple. After all a manual gearbox works just fine with two controls - clutch and gear lever.

Plus I'm a lover of the satisfaction of driving a car well. Automated systems like ABS, ESP, DSG, ETC(!) might be safer, or quicker, or supposedly 'more efficient' than me, but I enjoy providing the input myself. Let a machine to do the work and you take away from the man.

Having said all that, I've still not decided whether to have DSG or not! Perhaps a longer test drive is needed...

[R32UK]

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/08/vw-and-audi-models-recalled-over-two.html 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Well then you only have yourself to blame.  The kickdown switch is very noticeable.  

And don't forget, the DSG has an 'intelligent kickdown' too.  

It can have as much 'intelligent' bits and pieces as VAG deem appriopriate...but it still doesn't axcuse manual not being manual.

DSG isn't - mechanically speaking - an automatic gearbox in the accepted sense, it's an automated manual...so why when you choose to control the logic using your brain, and not an electronic one, can't it just leave you to it, as other manufacturers automated manuals do?


In auto, I would be happy for the ECU to use as much learning and 'intelligent' calculations as it sees fit..but in manual, it should move to the correct gear when you ask it to (within the mechanical limits of the engine) - which it doesn't...it moves when it wants to (you can't just tap straight down 3 gears if the engine revs and road speed make it safe to do so, as it'll drop one, then wait, then wait again) and should remain in the gear 'you' selected until 'you' change it.
That would be what manual means.
You shouldn't have to worry about pressing the pedal down too far in manual either...it should just stay in the damn gear yoiu select. End of.

In auto, fine...do what it wants and you'd learn to adapt to it.
But in manual, it should mean manual. And it doesn't.

It will drop down 3 gears almost instantly by tapping the paddle 3 times if the rpm allows. You certainly don't have to wait for each gear like you describe.

But kickdown is still far quicker.  In manual mode, when using the paddles, the DSG only works sequentially - which means it has to go from 6 to 5, 5 to 4, 4 to 3, etc.  It can not 'skip' intermediate gear ratios.  However, with kickdown, it completely over-rides the sequential gear change pattern - and can go from 6th straight into 2nd, completely missing out all the ratios in between. 

So the paddles, AND the kickdown - both have very distinct advantages and disadvantages over each other. 

An argument can be made for whether the kickdown function should be available in manual or not.

I personally think that disabling the kickdown in manual mode is completely un-necessary - you are loosing out on a very valid and useful advantage. 

ETTO though.

However, with a bit of experience you'll know where full throttle is and where the kickdown starts.

Exactly.  A throttle pedal is not just an 'on/off' switch.  It needs to be correctly modulated, and the kickdown 'button switch' can be very clearly discerned under your right foot.  Anyone who can't 'feel' the kickdown switch really shouldn't be driving at all! 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

It will drop down 3 gears almost instantly by tapping the paddle 3 times if the rpm allows. You certainly don't have to wait for each gear like you describe.

Well, it wasn't as instant as I'd have expected...probably a couple of seconds. Not what I was expecting based on driving other automated manuals (E-Gear, PDK, SMG etc)...I didn't imagine it, that's for sure.

An argument can be made for whether the kickdown function should be available in manual or not. However, with a bit of experience you'll know where full throttle is and where the kickdown starts.

I don't doubt that for one minute...what's surprising is that it's there at all when in manual.

But the kick down button is a manual function. It only operates when you hit it. You're talking as if the car decides when to drop down and it doesn't. It's no different than if you put your hand on a paddle and change down but you're using a foot instead.

Exactly - you hit the nail firmly and squarely on its head!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Did no one else notice that you cant actually use the paddles when going round a corner??? 

Huh, I can!