GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: GT4 on 21 September 2016, 12:54
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Hi Everyone
I am new to the forum and have an allocation for a Clubsport S and was given "Black" as my pre-determined colour ..!
I was hoping to get some feedback and opinions on the Limited run car with regard to its speed, i currently have a Porsche GT4 as my garage queen and the S will replace a Merc C class daily. I am using my GT4 too frequently and wanted something that would work well as a daily but also give me some thrills on a B road blast instead of the GT4 - I am nervous that the CS is a slow car, obviously in comparison with the GT4 but more importantly its relative £34k Competition such as a Focus RS, BMW 235i, M3, A45 AMG etc etc .... But most of all i want to know your opinions on its "future value" and "collectability" as you understand the GTi Community allot better than myself ... and don't want to lose my shirt and am seriously thinking of bailing out on the Clubsport S purchase, but don't want to make a schoolboy error of judgement ..???!!!!!
Many thanks in anticipation of your response ...
Andrew
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If you can afford to buy and run a M3, I'd buy that!
Totally different car and I'm fairly sure its not £34k last time I looked.
Fast as fek though but with nothing "track" about it - its a super fast luxury car usually occupied by fat old men in suits.
The only people I'd see being in the market for a CS-S are Golf nuts really (there are quite a few on this forum), for everybody else its just a slightly faster GTI with less creature comforts.
Have you thought about an R instead? Or if you wanted something that looked more sporty (but still tasteful unlike a Focus RS) maybe the Audi RS3?
Still not £34k though.
You can always find something better if you spend more money I guess, but you already have a porker.
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Thats rude Fred....My woman has the new M3 :wink:
To The OP, it doesn't seem like the reason to buy or not to buy if you're worried about resale tbh. You should buy because you have the passion for it
Having said that, I cannot imagine these losing much at all and long term it'll go up in value
With regards to speed, the Nurburgring figure is a good benchmark but I'd say at this level it's down to driver ability
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Hi
Also from teesside and in exactly the same boat! (Apart from the GT4 part! Haha). Have a vx220 as a daily currently and want to make that my 2nd car.
Spoke to lookers Boro last week and they said they are getting a regular clubsport in as a demo at some point. So hopefully it'll come in soon so I can get a rough idea. Main thing I want to check is Wether I fit in with a lid on.
From the video reviews I've seen, it looks as though b-roads will suit it best.
Test drover a 235 and the engine is excellent but its too common for my liking.
Jonny
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Based on the fact that you drive a GT4 I would assume you appreciate and prioritize a good chassis and crisp handling over straight line performance or drag racing and both the more practical CS and the more focused CS-S offer this. Otherwise you'd be in something stupidly powerful, German, AWD car (plenty of which to choose)
There's two factors here: performance and cost/future value.
Performance wise and by that I don't mean drag-races or flooring it on the wet but real fast driving through all sorts of corners, the CS-S is already proven *with official times* to be faster than all the cars you mention, BMW 235i, M2, M3*, A45 and just as fast (if not faster) as an M4 (M4 Nurburgring time: 7:52, CS-S: 7:49...) On the latest EVO test it's also faster than the Civic Type-R and guess what, the Focus RS. At this point I'm kind of confused as to what lack of performance you are worried about.
Still, it may be worth noting that there's a considerable amount of extra bhp and torque that is very safely squeezed out of the CS/CS-S/R engines with mere piggyback boxes (no warranty worries) and then I'm pretty sure that with that excellent chassis on offer, you are practically looking at a Porsche killer.
The question about future value and collectability is more complicated and to an extent only speculation can be done. If the CS-S then doesn't become a collector's item (for one reason or another), then it is safe to say that the standard CS would be more highly sought after as it's a full daily hot-hatch, with all the special looks and bits (bespoke aggressive styling, bucket seats, alcantara trim), a 95% similar chassis (uprated springs and dampers, steering rack etc.) yet all the Golf luxuries still in place.
Honestly, given the GT4 is there, it doesn't make much sense to have another very similar (meaning non-practical unless you never have/want to carry passengers), track-focused car as your daily. Buying it with an expectation of making money out of it is of-course a very different topic but I doubt anyone could guarantee you that.
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If you're buying it for a daily drive, there's loads of better cars out there for your money. The GTI Clubsport S is a track car IMO, it doesn't even come with an armrest, so as a daily drive I wouldn't buy one. Plus it's not even that quick. If I were you I'd get an R, then you've got everything you'd ever need as a daily drive.
If you were just buying it to use at the weekend, then that would be different.
It certainly will hold its value better than all the other Golfs on the market as its a limited edition.
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Plus it's not even that quick.
:grin:
You do realize that it's faster than every single car in your signature right? :whistle:
Unless that Walter Rohrl behind the 981 Cayman S is some amateur...
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife (http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife)
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I would say the CS-S is basically a GT4 for someone who doesn't have £90k for a weekend toy and wants a new, rare track car with warranty. (The premise, I know one is mid engine/Rwd etc.......)
As a daily driver it would be a pain, I have GTi PP as a daily and a "real" Clubsport Porsche for weekends and occasional trackdays... The cars compliment each other rather than replicate.
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Hi Everyone.
Many thanks for your feedback, keep it coming ....
The Golf R would be logical but was too common place on our roads for me! The A45 AMG is better anyway?!
I like the idea of limited builds and the value they bring to ownership. I have had S54 Z3 M Coupe, M3 CSL, 1M, Carrera GTS and now GT4 so its become somewhat of a hobby making money out of Ownership ...
I can't believe that anyone would pay upwards of £35k for a Golf but then again thats not my market, hence the thread and your input. I only live 2 miles from work so could live with the CS as a daily and in truth would probably keep the Merc anyway to leave in car parks etc ...
I was fascinated to learn of the Clubsport S speed and will track down an EVO magazine, it sounds very much like a 1M form of ownership but without the M badge
£35k for a VW scares me but please don't take my words disrespectufully ... I had a Golf for 10 years and found it ok, but just ok ... but it was a Mark4 GTi - great build quality, almost Porsche like ...
Question is do you think the CS will become a VW legend, like the 1M to BMW or will it just be another Gti that is badged slightly differently ...??
Many thanks
Andrew
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I think it will become a bit like the g60 and g60 limited
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Time might prove me wrong, but I don't think there will be much chance of making a quick profit on a CSS. I'm sure that it will be quite sought after in the near future if you were to resell, as well as many years down the line and I think it value will hold up quite well, but buying it to make a profit, unlikely I would say. Time will tell.
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I think it will become a bit like the g60 and g60 limited
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the g60 ..?
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As much as we enjoy the Golfs, none of them have exactly out performed as investments.
e.g. If you bought a desirable 1983 Mk1 GTi Campaign, these were available new for <£7500.
If you adjust for inflation £7500 in 1983 is equivalent to £23,920 in today's money.
You would still have to service, mot a car for it to be worth anything today and there are not many immaculate Mk1 available for >£15k today.
For example if you perform the same calculation with some Ferrari, some air cooled 911 you could make a case for appreciation over inflation adjusted purchase price.
The closest car I can compare to the CS-S is the Audi A1 quattro of 2012.
Audi produced 333 of these (all lhd) with 19 coming to the UK at a cost of £41k.
4 years on and sub 10k miles cars come up rarely at low £30k's....maybe you would get your money back on an unused car that sat in a collection?
On that basis, I can see a CS-s holding it' money, but don't see it appreciating much, it won't be long before the next set of mega tyres reduces ring times on the next Ring spec hot hatch.
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I hear what you say Paul but I think the big difference here is that VW has never produced a car such as the CSS before (though still missing the cage)
It's the first of it's kind. I'm pretty sure the Megane R26R is still worth the 22k it was new if it were in great condition with low miles (but I can't recall whether that was dear then)
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I think it will become a bit like the g60 and g60 limited
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the g60 ..?
The g60, g60 limited and the rallye were mk2 golfs with a 1.8 supercharged engine, they aren't very common especially g60 limiteds (they only made about 70 i think).
They are worth significantly more than a gti.
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I think it will become a bit like the g60 and g60 limited
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the g60 ..?
An 8v with a hair dryer bolted on.
Sound awesome and keep my mate Brian in the opulent life style he's used to.
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I like the idea of limited builds and the value they bring to ownership. I have had S54 Z3 M Coupe, M3 CSL, 1M, Carrera GTS and now GT4 so its become somewhat of a hobby making money out of Ownership ...
I think you are looking in the wrong place for this sort of thing.
As much as I love my Golf, its a Golf, its the peoples' car like it's father.
The only way I'd guess you could make money from a CS-S is to get it and then sell it almost immediately with just delivery mileage. Its probably not as good a kill like that as the latest Ferrari, but the strategy is the same, albeit it with a much smaller pot on the table.
I'm sure BMW or Porsche have another limited edition coming out soon.
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Spot on answer from clubsport I think, especially the A1 comparison.
I don't think a Golf, any version, from new has ever gone up in value.
Special editions just lose value at a slightly lower rate. Good 14 year old mk4 GTI now 2k - good 25th anni - 4k.
Again, as clubsport says, adjusted for time, I don't think any Golf has gone beyond it's original cost. All that you see is a bounce back from the bottom of the market. Mk1 and mk2 values have been rising for a few years now. Mk3 probably hit rock bottom about a year ago. Mk4's are there now. Sub 1k for a perfectly usable (not 'mint') mk4 1.8T.
There will be people trying to speculate on the CSS - maybe for the first time ever you could make a couple of thousand, or keep it for a year and it be worth the same. Not a chance of seeing GT4 type madness.
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I think it will become a bit like the g60 and g60 limited
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the g60 ..?
The g60, g60 limited and the rallye were mk2 golfs with a 1.8 supercharged engine, they aren't very common especially g60 limiteds (they only made about 70 i think).
They are worth significantly more than a gti.
The limited was all for vw upper managemnt aswell, dont think any were actually for the UK but there are a couple here.
But on the css i agree that they wont go for more than original purchase price but will hold value.
Amd as jv and clubsport have mentioned its not often it happens, I think even vintage aircooled vw stuff is hit and miss.
All I can think of is the 60s busses.
Maybe the css will become an investment but like Any limited addition car it is a collector that wants them, or will want them
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I don't agree with the Audi A1 comparison simply because the car looks like a shoe, not only that but the Golf has a much much wider and enthusiastic following
The CSS will make overs without doubt but only if with delivery miles etc. I've already been offered overs for mine but I'm keeping it
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Thanks everyone ... its sure fired up some debate?!
My logical thinking takes me this far ...
Negatives:
1) £34k Golf - Expensive car for VW
2) No motorsport Pedigree
3) Front Wheel drive Turbo Charged Sports car
4) Terrible dealer network only used to selling diesels - No Gravitas
5) VW Brand Image - Not BMW M nor Porsche Gt nor Mercedes AMG
Positives:
1) Very, very low number Limited Run - 400 World Wide
2) Less than 1 car per UK dealership
3) 150 RHD drive cars in the World
4) Nurburgring Lap Record - 2 seater stripped out kind of Homologation with Polo Cup car
5) Massive GTi following
6) Cult enthusiast Following
7) Fun to own and Drive
8) Cheap to own and Drive
So, in short the Positives outweigh the negatives ...
Conclusion:
The Car has just been awarded 5 stars by EVO after blasting round the dales so will probably be part of ECOTY and if featured in the Top 3 will guarantee its cult status which given No Porsche GT product or Ferrari but in their the M2 it might just bag a Podium finish ... I don't think it will make any money and will depreciate £4k a year until £25k then shallow out and then at £20k in 10 years time will slowly rise in value and then in 20 years time will be an absolute Classic and worth a small fortune!
Andrew
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I'm not so sure about some of your negatives
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Motorsport pedigree? We can only dream of that these days, its difficult for a car to leave a legacy these days, without motorsport pedigree they're going into battle with damp powder.
But we can only blame people who make the rules for motorsport.
When ford make a proper rs, then I'll be interested in new fords for the first time since 1996, bmw haven't made an m3 since the (very) early nineties (they just keep the name going) etc.
I don't really agree with any of your negatives.
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Thanks everyone ... its sure fired up some debate?!
My logical thinking takes me this far ...
Negatives:
1) £34k Golf - Expensive car for VW
2) No motorsport Pedigree
3) Front Wheel drive Turbo Charged Sports car
4) Terrible dealer network only used to selling diesels - No Gravitas
5) VW Brand Image - Not BMW M nor Porsche Gt nor Mercedes AMG
Positives:
1) Very, very low number Limited Run - 400 World Wide
2) Less than 1 car per UK dealership
3) 150 RHD drive cars in the World
4) Nurburgring Lap Record - 2 seater stripped out kind of Homologation with Polo Cup car
5) Massive GTi following
6) Cult enthusiast Following
7) Fun to own and Drive
8) Cheap to own and Drive
So, in short the Positives outweigh the negatives ...
Conclusion:
The Car has just been awarded 5 stars by EVO after blasting round the dales so will probably be part of ECOTY and if featured in the Top 3 will guarantee its cult status which given No Porsche GT product or Ferrari but in their the M2 it might just bag a Podium finish ... I don't think it will make any money and will depreciate £4k a year until £25k then shallow out and then at £20k in 10 years time will slowly rise in value and then in 20 years time will be an absolute Classic and worth a small fortune!
Andrew
You're not R400 off vwroc forum by any chance are you? :whistle:
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Thanks everyone ... its sure fired up some debate?!
My logical thinking takes me this far ...
Negatives:
2) No motorsport Pedigree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XplAjfdKsO8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XplAjfdKsO8)
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It's a touch of the badge snobbery I fear.
The sort that wouldn't buy a Nissan GT-R no matter how good because it's a Datsun
VW has always been held in high regard in the badge stakes IMO
My Woman has the new M3 and that car gets the rear facing cap brigades attention to an embarrassing level, so much so she never uses it
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True Motorsport pedigree is usually defined by homologation, where a number of production cars have to be built to allow "innovations" to be justified in the race cars. That is what adds value, or used to in road cars with race pedigree.
A ring record is transient and will soon be bettered on the next car with sticky short term tyres. This may lead to a mk8/9 Golf CS-s in 3-5 years?
I am really pleased VW have made the CS-S, they could have been a bit more hard core with the outcome.
As for values and investment, maybe you can flip a delivery mileage car for £40k in the next 6 months or get your money back in a year.
I think it will be in demand and a safe place to keep your money, maybe even enjoyable if collectors ever drive them? Because if you put average mileage or track laps on them, they will not appreciate relative to the garage queens.
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Thanks GTi for the Youtube clip ... I had no idea there was an all inclusive Motorsport series for the golf - does it use the same engine, chassis etc ..?
As i politely mentioned earlier, i had a Mk4 Gti and loved the reliability and had it for over 10 years so was happy with the badge. My concern is that VW and the dealers don't know how to handle a limited run car or an OCD enthusiast as most VW cars are high volume. When i spoke to my dealership they had no real idea about the Clubsport S and for sure i knew more than them which is unusual and not like Porsche and GT cars ... Hence why i am asking so many questions here to loyal GTi enthusiasts about the car to get a better opinion, as i would say VW don't even know how to handle the launch and PR side of it compared to again say Porsche with a new GT car which is what i am used too ... and info and even pictures are hard to come by - i can't find a picture anywhere of a Black Clubsport S which is what i have been allocated by VW, which again is a very strange scenario?!
Please forgive me if i have been rude or disrespectful, my intention is quite simply the opposite... I am a car enthusiast wanting to share info with fellow car enthusiasts regarding a car that i have a deposit down for but don't understand enough about, you guys can ask me any questions about the GT4 if you like ... and by the way i am not R400 who ever he is ...
Please keep the comments coming, the M Coupe community was a loyal and hardcore one and i feel with "you lot" thats the case also and something that is very special ...
Many thanks
Andrew
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Personally I think you're over thinking this. All said and done it's still just a Golf that's going to depreciate like any other new car. It may well be sought after in 20 years time, so worth 2-3 times more than a stock 20 year old GTI, but in the mean time it will just be like any other white good, replaced with something new and shiny quite once the novelty has worn off.
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When Porsche sell a GT4 its almost one of the cheapest cars they sell. Of course they care - I'd care if I was selling one car a fortnight and it went for upwards of 90k.
At £34k the CS-S isn't even the most expensive car a VW dealer will sell among the dozens they will shift a week.
Its totally different.
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True Motorsport pedigree is usually defined by homologation, where a number of production cars have to be built to allow "innovations" to be justified in the race cars. That is what adds value, or used to in road cars with race pedigree.
A ring record is transient and will soon be bettered on the next car with sticky short term tyres. This may lead to a mk8/9 Golf CS-s in 3-5 years?
I am really pleased VW have made the CS-S, they could have been a bit more hard core with the outcome.
As for values and investment, maybe you can flip a delivery mileage car for £40k in the next 6 months or get your money back in a year.
I think it will be in demand and a safe place to keep your money, maybe even enjoyable if collectors ever drive them? Because if you put average mileage or track laps on them, they will not appreciate relative to the garage queens.
Spot on Paul
I agree also with the point that these could have been more hardcore
I think the days of the old 964/993 Clubsport are well and truly gone where they were true hardcore stripped out to within an inch of their lives. I'll never for get you taking me around brands in yours....superb
After having bought my 997 GT3 RS I was invited to discuss the Gen 2 and what we would like to see. I'd say 95% of owners said they want a more stripped out focused machine. It's never happened and I wonder why
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Personally I think you're over thinking this. All said and done it's still just a Golf that's going to depreciate like any other new car. It may well be sought after in 20 years time, so worth 2-3 times more than a stock 20 year old GTI, but in the mean time it will just be like any other white good, replaced with something new and shiny quite once the novelty has worn off.
+1.
I would add to this that I don't think modern cars will stand the test of time like the older stuff. Can you imagine having a 15-20 year old MK7 and something goes tits up with one of the many complex electronic components in the car? $$$$$$$ Straight to the scrapper...
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In 20years we'll all be driving electric cars and probably won't be able to get hold of any petrol for any classic cars anyway.
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Personally I think you're over thinking this. All said and done it's still just a Golf that's going to depreciate like any other new car. It may well be sought after in 20 years time, so worth 2-3 times more than a stock 20 year old GTI, but in the mean time it will just be like any other white good, replaced with something new and shiny quite once the novelty has worn off.
+1.
I would add to this that I don't think modern cars will stand the test of time like the older stuff. Can you imagine having a 15-20 year old MK7 and something goes tits up with one of the many complex electronic components in the car? $$$$$$$ Straight to the scrapper...
I remember thinking this years ago in the late 80's when cars started getting complicated but we see silly prices on this stuff.
Also to put into context a MK1 RS focus with low mileage is 25k plus. I even saw one at over 30k and that's only 15 years old
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Mk1 focus rs is at least 7000 now, for a not very good one, integrales were in that spot 10 years earlier, now look.
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Mk1 focus rs is at least 7000 now, for a not very good one, integrales were in that spot 10 years earlier, now look.
£7000 for a shed yes but a 7000 miler 25k
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Mk1 focus rs is at least 7000 now, for a not very good one, integrales were in that spot 10 years earlier, now look.
£7000 for a shed yes but a 7000 miler 25k
Thats my point.
Cosworths were also in that situation, now you want a 3 door sierra or escort and its worth a fortune regardless of condition an rs500 more than life itself.
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Cs are now coming up for sale as nearly new now. Hard to see he exact spec of this one tho:
http://www.jct600.co.uk/used-car-details/used-volkswagen-golf-20-tsi-gti-clubsport-40-5dr-d-hatchback-pure-white-automatic-petrol-id_1233548048.aspx?category=Nearly%20New
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The standard clubsport doesn't get the greatest of reviews from carwow
https://youtu.be/DR-ENZbuR7E
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The standard clubsport doesn't get the greatest of reviews from carwow
https://youtu.be/DR-ENZbuR7E
Looks like a nice chap and definitely one to consider his opinion when looking for your next shopping trolley but for actual sports car reviews I think I'd rather stick with EVO, Top Gear etc if all that came out of his "test-drive" was that it has 2 less wheels than the R, and therefore he doesn't see the point :grin:
I mean I understand not everybody likes/can push cars hard and is not capable or interested in picking up differences in road-feedback, agility, sharp steering but he could have at least mentioned the far sportier/more special interior and cabin feeling compared to the GTI or R that even on their own set the car apart. Nah, not interested it seems.
Also, I wonder if any of the reviewers that drive CS with Brescias realize their test car is a 16kg heavier car due to +4kg of unsprung mass per corner. I have only ever driven a car with stock and then -2kg lighter wheels and the difference was so noticeable. Can't imagine how bad it will be with +4kg.
And a note on the overboost. It is not working as advertised (or as presented in this vid). There is no 25bhp coming on and off. In reality it works much more gradually and seems to be there all the time (mostly). I've timed several in gear pulls from 30 to 130 and the CS seems to be quicker than any equivalent R or S3 times I've seen. But I'm sure it has just 265 bhp... :whistle:
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I didn't realise that the Clubsport 40 was a Limited edition - How many are being made ?? would be a great way to benchmark Clubsport S values ..??!
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Here is another review for the Clubsport. Makes me wish I had gone for the tornado red now!
https://youtu.be/V2p8KUdCVEc
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You do realize that it's faster than every single car in your signature right? :whistle:
0-60 in 5.9 secs for the Clubsport S - is that right?
0-60 for the Golf R 4.9, clocked at 4.6.
0-60 for the Porsche was 4.9, clocked at 4.6.
0-60 for the TTS is 4.6, clocked at 4.1.
It's not that quick for how much it costs. Just saying my friend. :smiley:
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MatchBoy - Quicker than a 911 GTS PDK & a GT4 ... CS-S 5.8 seconds to 60 Mph - I want some of what you've been drinking ... :laugh: The 18 year old M Coupe would leave it standing :whistle:
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MatchBoy - Quicker than a 911 GTS PDK & a GT4 ... CS-S 5.8 seconds to 60 Mph - I want some of what you've been drinking ... :laugh: The 18 year old M Coupe would leave it standing :whistle:
I don't know the 0-60 on a Clubsport S, 5.8 was a guess, as the car doesn't really interest me so I didn't look up the time. I appreciate those who track day it will find it of interest, hence why I used a '?' hoping that someone knows the time and would post it. But I stand by my original point, for £35k its not that quick and there are faster & better specced cars out there for the same/less money.
The other 0-60 times I quoted are book times, with times I've taken/seen on YouTube. I haven't seen a true 0-60 time for the Clubsport S so I couldn't provide that information for comparison purposes.
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You do realize that it's faster than every single car in your signature right? :whistle:
0-60 in 5.9 secs for the Clubsport S - is that right?
0-60 for the Golf R 4.9, clocked at 4.6.
0-60 for the Porsche was 4.9, clocked at 4.6.
0-60 for the TTS is 4.6, clocked at 4.1.
It's not that quick for how much it costs. Just saying my friend. :smiley:
0-60 times really? That's all about the drivetrain. AWD > RWD > FWD, it hardly reveals anything about the true performance level of any car. Thanks for today's lesson but I had it around 20 years ago. Please don't tell me you bought a Porsche for 0-60 drag racing, did you?
Now I'll help you and state that with real-world performance I mean what happens when you pull against another car on the road/highway, or on a twisty road, or on the track, or during every rolling (in-gear) acceleration, bingo...
CS and CS-S even further, pull just as hard (harder in some cases) than all of the above cars, better even than an M2, or an A45 AMG, or a Focus RS and the list goes on. The vids and tests are all there for you to check. In my book these are not exactly slow cars nor do they (mostly) cost 35K. Hopefully point becoming clearer now.
I mean unless when you pull against another car you wave your hand and if he slows down, you roll down the window and shout "hello sir can you please come to a full stop and then I'll count to 3 and we launch? Thank you". Sure if you do that (and it works :grin:) you'd be better with any non-FWD car. For the 99,9% percent of a random encounter with any of those cars the CS will put them to shame.
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0-60 times really? That's all about the drivetrain. AWD > RWD > FWD, it hardly reveals anything about the true performance level of any car. Thanks for today's lesson but I had it around 20 years ago. Please don't tell me you bought a Porsche for 0-60 drag racing, did you?
Now I'll help you and state that with real-world performance I mean what happens when you pull against another car on the road/highway, or on a twisty road, or on the track, or during every rolling (in-gear) acceleration, bingo...
CS and CS-S even further, pull just as hard (harder in some cases) than all of the above cars, better even than an M2, or an A45 AMG, or a Focus RS and the list goes on. The vids and tests are all there for you to check. In my book these are not exactly slow cars nor do they (mostly) cost 35K. Hopefully point becoming clearer now.
I mean unless when you pull against another car you wave your hand and if he slows down, you roll down the window and shout "hello sir can you please come to a full stop and then I'll count to 3 and we launch? Thank you". Sure if you do that (and it works :grin:) you'd be better with any non-FWD car. For the 99,9% percent of a random encounter with any of those cars the CS will put them to shame.
Thanks for the reply, but I really don't care that much! :grin:
Clearly you are a CS S fanboy, and I'm not interested in one of those discussions. The "better than even an M2" was my favourite part of your reply btw, most amusing :grin:
Enjoy your car my friend. :smiley:
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Clearly you are a CS S fanboy, and I'm not interested in one of those discussions. The "better than even an M2" was my favourite part of your reply btw, most amusing :grin:
Enjoy your car my friend. :smiley:
Well If basic math understanding like 07:49" at the 'Ring is quicker than 07:58" at the 'Ring and if 60-160km/h at 8,2" is faster than 8,9" makes me a fanboy then I whole-heartedly accept the name. But rather a fact fan-boy than a brand one like others :wink:
It's funny how your entire attitude is basically revolving around the "it's a Golf so how can it be quicker than a BMW" but no numbers to back it up other than the misleading 0-60 times.
I have to admit though it's owners like you and their "i drive a BMW/Audi/Porsche so by that alone I must be quicker than any VW/Skoda/Seat/Renault/Ford" attitude that keep the roads an interesting place, please continue to go on like that, it's priceless, every single time...
PS. --- Bonus links only for fanboys :grin: :grin: :grin: ---- Not to be clicked by BMW/Merc owners!!! in-gear acceleration shock imminent ---
M2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnzmji36kI4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnzmji36kI4)
A45 AMG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnno7MpRKk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnno7MpRKk4)
very slow Clubsport: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKG8IFEDpHg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKG8IFEDpHg)
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I have to admit though it's owners like you and their "i drive a BMW/Audi/Porsche so by that alone I must be quicker than any VW/Skoda/Seat/Renault/Ford" attitude that keep the roads an interesting place, please continue to go on like that, it's priceless, every single time...
And yet I've owned a mk 7 R and GTI, and various GTI's before that. So zero snobbery from me as VW are my favourite cars :rolleyes:
I'm not getting your point with these videos? AutoMann shows 5.5 secs 0-60 for the Clubsport. He also has a video of my current car doing 0-60 in 4.1 - and yet the Clubsport is quicker? Confusing! :grin:
Anyway, enough willy waving, like I say enjoy your car and those N'ring laptimes my friend. :smiley:
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I'm not getting your point with these videos? AutoMann shows 5.5 secs 0-60 for the Clubsport. He also has a video of my current car doing 0-60 in 4.1 - and yet the Clubsport is quicker? Confusing! :grin:
God, you didn't just say 0-60 times? again??
I suspected those links would confuse you even more, but ok I give up, you really are a lost cause :cry:
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Thanks GTi for the Youtube clip ... I had no idea there was an all inclusive Motorsport series for the golf - does it use the same engine, chassis etc ..?
Sorry for the delayed response.
The engine is based on the EA888 block, peak output is circa 330 bhp 410 Nm torque.
I think the similarity in the chassis is that it is based on a current production shell.
VW Motorsport made 20 @ 110 000 +Vat Euros a piece.
Bargain when considering the cost of WTCC BMW engine was 75 000 euros a couple of years back.
Will be attending a few BeNeLux TCR rounds next year ad will snap some up close and personal pics.
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Come on Guys ... Let's not argue over things with such one sided arguments ... The CS-S is currently VW's GT3 for sale at £34k and with a Limited Build ... Every Road Test gives it Top marks so i am sure its going to be a Cracker ... I too had a deposit on an M2 with December delivery but thought at £50k it was crazy money and would rather buy another Porsche! The CS-S sits perfectly at the £30k price point, throw in guaranteed Limited Run unlike the "relatively" Mass Produced M2 and with a Nurburg Ring time to throw in at the mix and you have a car well worth its sticker price unlike the M2 or AMG 45 ... Which are two great cars IMO - If the CS-S is 9/10 of the M2 i will be very, very happy as i absolutely loved the M2 on a Test Drive but not at £50k :grin:
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Agreed GT4
I cannot see why all the scratching.
The CS-S came in cheaper than I thought. My CS is a dearer car in my spec and that's when it starts to get too trumpy at 37 bags.
I cannot wait for my S, nothing else out there for me at that money.
My Daughter has just this week taken delivery of her M2, a cracking car for sure but not the track focused car I'm always after.
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God, you didn't just say 0-60 times? again??
Because you posted a video showing the 0-60 time of the Clubsport, hence I was replying to you :rolleyes:
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God, you didn't just say 0-60 times? again??
Because you posted a video showing the 0-60 time of the Clubsport, hence I was replying to you :rolleyes:
Lol, another miserable failure to interpret a link as simple as that. Those videos are not about 0-60, that was a good performance benchmark in the 70's or 80's where top speeds were 90-100mph but since I'm in a good mood today I will try to help you :wink:
The videos are basically about in-gear acceleration ie. what will happen when you are driving and decide to floor the throttle (also known as: reality check) where the ability to launch does not affect performance, not about your beloved drag-race bragging it seems. This, actual in-gear acceleration, is much more indicative of the real world performance and power delivery than any published bhp or 0-60 value. And the times a CS and CS-S score there (like in 60-160 or 100-200km/h) are indeed quicker than a TT-S, A45 AMG, M2, Focus RS.
If you are still unable to get or recognize that, then there's a serious problem...
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Lol, another miserable failure to interpret a link as simple as that. Those videos are not about 0-60, that was a good performance benchmark in the 70's or 80's where top speeds were 90-100mph but since I'm in a good mood today I will try to help you :wink:
The videos are basically about in-gear acceleration ie. what will happen when you are driving and decide to floor the throttle (also known as: reality check) where the ability to launch does not affect performance, not about your beloved drag-race bragging it seems. This, actual in-gear acceleration, is much more indicative of the real world performance and power delivery than any published bhp or 0-60 value. And the times a CS and CS-S score there (like in 60-160 or 100-200km/h) are indeed quicker than a TT-S, A45 AMG, M2, Focus RS.
If you are still unable to get or recognize that, then there's a serious problem...
Isn't going to 60 "in gear acceleration?" Or can the Clubsport and all those other cars hit 60mph without changing gear?
I haven't checked the other times in your post as, quite frankly, I can't be bothered :grin: but I'm assuming that you're telling me that the Clubsport will beat all of those cars after 60mph. Even though its 1.5 seconds down after 60mph :whistle:
I'm not bragging in anyway, I'm merely making the point that the Clubsport S isn't the fastest car the world has ever seen, despite your replies, and that IMO 35k is better spent elsewhere. Like on an R. Are you sure you're not R400 from the R forum?
Anyway, I'll let you get back to your 35k car that doesn't come with an armrest. Good day to you!
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Lol, another miserable failure to interpret a link as simple as that. Those videos are not about 0-60, that was a good performance benchmark in the 70's or 80's where top speeds were 90-100mph but since I'm in a good mood today I will try to help you :wink:
The videos are basically about in-gear acceleration ie. what will happen when you are driving and decide to floor the throttle (also known as: reality check) where the ability to launch does not affect performance, not about your beloved drag-race bragging it seems. This, actual in-gear acceleration, is much more indicative of the real world performance and power delivery than any published bhp or 0-60 value. And the times a CS and CS-S score there (like in 60-160 or 100-200km/h) are indeed quicker than a TT-S, A45 AMG, M2, Focus RS.
If you are still unable to get or recognize that, then there's a serious problem...
Isn't going to 60 "in gear acceleration?" Or can the Clubsport and all those other cars hit 60mph without changing gear?
I haven't checked the other times in your post as, quite frankly, I can't be bothered :grin: but I'm assuming that you're telling me that the Clubsport will beat all of those cars after 60mph. Even though its 1.5 seconds down after 60mph :whistle:
I'm not bragging in anyway, I'm merely making the point that the Clubsport S isn't the fastest car the world has ever seen, despite your replies, and that IMO 35k is better spent elsewhere. Like on an R. Are you sure you're not R400 from the R forum?
Anyway, I'll let you get back to your 35k car that doesn't come with an armrest. Good day to you!
No it isn't true in gear acceleration because any acceleration starting from a standstill is heavily influenced by how well the car launches. That's a drive-train matter. You can put 1500bhp in a FWD, and it probably won't be able to do better than 4" in 0-60, but it'll demolish everything once moving. Is that a not so fast car then? This really is ABC we are talking here, for someone who has supposedly owned a few performance cars I'm genuinely shocked you still can't get your head round that.
If you can't be bothered checking times and other performance data other than the published figures why coming to this thread and embarrass yourself with every new reply, only to accept that "yeah ok I haven't checked this or that nor do I bother. You just have to trust me it's a slow car". Utter boredom isn't an excuse, there are other threads to offer your un-documented wisdom.
"Clubsport, the fastest car the world has ever seen" ? You must be delusional if you think anyone claimed that (along with whoever claimed that). The point, from the beginning, has been that it is faster than you thought in real world (non drag race) driving, and against very specific supposedly fast cars.
The rest of what you say about R400 and arm-rests are naturally incomprehensible and totally irrelevant with whether the CS is fast car or not but it's not the first time you talk irrelevant stuff, just a bit tiring and boring eventually. I hope we can be spared from it soon.
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Are you telling me that the Clubsport S doesn't come with an armrest?
Well they can shove my order then. :rolleyes:
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Are you telling me that the Clubsport S doesn't come with an armrest?
Well they can shove my order then. :rolleyes:
It gets worse. Cars with arm-rests have a higher top-speed as well as stronger acceleration. I'd say save your money :grin:
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No it isn't true in gear acceleration because any acceleration starting from a standstill is heavily influenced by how well the car launches.
What about if both cars start at 1mph, and therefore a rolling start. Is the Clubsport still quicker than an M2 or Focus RS at that point? Tell you what, for that 1mph I'll shave 0.1 off the 0-60 time - hell, let's give you 0.2 secs for S&G's - so instead of 1.5 secs behind you can be 1.3 secs behind at 60mph - you're still quicker, right?
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Lads,
From the sounds of both your replies I'm surprised either of you are old enough to have driven any cars :wink:
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No it isn't true in gear acceleration because any acceleration starting from a standstill is heavily influenced by how well the car launches.
What about if both cars start at 1mph, and therefore a rolling start. Is the Clubsport still quicker than an M2 or Focus RS at that point? Tell you what, for that 1mph I'll shave 0.1 off the 0-60 time - hell, let's give you 0.2 secs for S&G's - so instead of 1.5 secs behind you can be 1.3 secs behind at 60mph - you're still quicker, right?
In all seriousness, if you had ever been engaged in any sort of motorsports activity you wouldn't be spouting all that continued non-sense (the 1mph argument is your best up to now).
So, another piece of free info for you: The benefit of AWD vs FWD fades at approximately 20-30mph (RWD even lower than that). After that you can check performances without the influence of the drive-train. Stupidly tuned FWD will still struggle but talking about OEM examples, you can safely assume you can start "testing" from that speed point on. Hardly a high speed anyway and in a real world example you'd probably be driving faster than that in the majority of roads. That's what I've been talking about from the beginning, 30-50, 30-80, 50-100mph etc. And yes, the CS/CS-S is faster at all those pulls.
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Are buyers really concerned with how fast a CS-S is?
I would have thought it was down to the improvement in the feedback from the chassis and maybe a little playfulness and adjustability on the throttle, involving you in the driving process.
Most 4wd cars I have driven on the road are mostly neutral up to and beyond the legal limit that you can only start to have fun on track in a large space. There are advantages of traction with 4wd, normally at the expense of fun in my experience.
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Comedy gold :cool:
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Are buyers really concerned with how fast a CS-S is?
I would have thought it was down to the improvement in the feedback from the chassis and maybe a little playfulness and adjustability on the throttle, involving you in the driving process.
Most 4wd cars I have driven on the road are mostly neutral up to and beyond the legal limit that you can only start to have fun on track in a large space. There are advantages of traction with 4wd, normally at the expense of fun in my experience.
Totally agreed. The strongest point/appeal of the car is not outright speed, 300 bhp is hardly record-breaking figures by today's standards. The chassis, turn-in, agility and feed-back are what it's about and you can appreciate all that from the very first turn you take at, what normally would be, punishing speed.
Test-drove an R twice, I didn't feel I was playing any part when driving below the limit and when I actually got there the tolerances were pretty minor. You are either going too fast and will pay for it, or fast enough for the car to turn without much effort (but slower compared to a more focused, sportier alternative). S3 was much worse.
Still it's quite impressing to see that when you floor it from 30mph+ (a speed that you'll be above 99% of the time unless hitting the drag-strip or going for midnight traffic light races :tongue:), it will embarass cars with 50-80bhp more.
Here's EVO's acceleration data from the last issue, I've put the CS on par with the Cupra. Only half a sec between CS/Cupra and CS-S and still faster than a Focus RS (and an A45 AMG which for the nominal 381 bhp must be the slowest car in acceleration/bhp ratio)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v361/No_need_2_r_gue/Clubsport/public/Capture_zps6hebueds.jpg)
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I suppose what you've got to ask yourself is what you're going to be doing with your CSS. If it'll never see a track then any advantages it may have at the edge of its capabilities on a bone-dry day will never be realised. On a wet day i'd guess an R would have it.
If it's never going on the track then you're trading equipment and comfort for what? Like the Range Rover whose tyres have never touched dirt.
For those that would never see a track to get driven in anger, a nomal CS or R would make far more sense on the road.
No one car is best at everything in all circumstances, not even a certain Golf variant.
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Lads,
From the sounds of both your replies I'm surprised either of you are old enough to have driven any cars :wink:
:grin:
I'm not sure he's getting the point that I'm on a wind up :laugh:
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Lads,
From the sounds of both your replies I'm surprised either of you are old enough to have driven any cars :wink:
:grin:
I'm not sure he's getting the point that I'm on a wind up :laugh:
I didn't imagine you can be that bored and have that much free time, but I'll be more careful in the future. I just noticed the 3000+ posts. I'm terrified at the thought of how those were made :sick:
At least EVO's acceleration data might be of use to anyone interested in real-world figures.
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Lads,
From the sounds of both your replies I'm surprised either of you are old enough to have driven any cars :wink:
:grin:
I'm not sure he's getting the point that I'm on a wind up :laugh:
I didn't imagine you can be that bored and have that much free time, but I'll be more careful in the future. I just noticed the 3000+ posts. I'm afraid to find out how those were made :sick:
At least the acceleration data might be of use to anyone interested in real-world figures.
I have plenty of time, I'm an accountant.
The data was interesting, it showed up to the legal limit on a motorway of 70mph that the Clubsport S came 3rd out of 4th. Therefore, my point stands that there are quicker cars out there, for the same/less money.
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I have plenty of time, I'm an accountant.
The data was interesting, it showed up to the legal limit on a motorway of 70mph that the Clubsport S came 3rd out of 4th. Therefore, my point stands that there are quicker cars out there, for the same/less money.
:grin: wrong again.
40 to 70:
CS: 3,4"
Cupra: 3,7"
Type-R: 3,5"
Focus RS: 3,9"
Embarrassing deduction skills, especially for accountant. Are you actually employed?
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I have plenty of time, I'm an accountant.
The data was interesting, it showed up to the legal limit on a motorway of 70mph that the Clubsport S came 3rd out of 4th. Therefore, my point stands that there are quicker cars out there, for the same/less money.
:grin: wrong again.
40 to 70:
CS: 3,4"
Cupra: 3,7"
Type-R: 3,5"
Focus RS: 3,9"
Embarrassing deduction skills, especially for accountant. Are you actually employed?
I'm looking at cumulative times my friend (ie. 0-70 just to be clear). So, still 3rd out of 4th then :rolleyes:
And yes, I have my own business, thanks for asking. Hence why I can post on here anytime I want. :laugh:
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I'm looking at cumulative times my friend (ie. 0-70 just to be clear). So, still 3rd out of 4th then :rolleyes:
Reality check:
Why would anyone care about 0-60 times in the real world? How many launch their cars at a regular basis? Have a look in an R sub-forum and most R owners will say they don't even know how the Launch Control works yet (let alone try it) or that they did it once or twice during the entire time of their ownership, and it makes sense actually.
To properly launch the car and hit the official 0-60 time is not as simple as writing in a forum. You need to find a proper place and time. Traffic light areas which demand the cars to come to a stop usually don't allow for 60mph speeds not to mention you should be locked up if you even try that in an urban environment. And I hope you don't plan on coming to a full stop on a highway. Any of the above looks ridiculous and dangerous really.
Sprinting from 30-40mph to 70mph or 80mph or whatever the top speed limit is in every country is a much easier and safer task than can be enjoyed every time. I wonder which case (0-60 or 30-70) can be considered real world performance :wink:
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Come on Guys ... I have a GT4 sat in the garage with a 0 to 60 time slower than the new Boxster S PDK ... Does this mean the Boxster is a faster car than a GT4 ...? No, it doesn't - as the measure of the Gt4 is how fast it covers ground from 50 to 80 Mph and at that point it will leave anything bar a 911 Turbo in its wake - but again its not just about that turn of speed but rather how it gets there ... The Noise from the Mid engine, the Shotgun reloading of the gear shift, the incredible turn into a corner and the way it literally throws you out of a bend asthough on elastic is what has made the Gt4 arguably the best Sports car in the World ... In a way - this is what VW are trying to do with the CS-S ... Give the driver speed across ground and in setting a Nurburgring time just 5 seconds off the GT4 which is quicker than 360 Stradale and 430 - VW have created a true enthusiast driving car something that they have never aged to do with FWD or the horsepower the Golf has ever had .... Well done to VW :grin:
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Come on Guys ... I have a GT4 sat in the garage with a 0 to 60 time slower than the new Boxster S PDK ... Does this mean the Boxster is a faster car than a GT4 ...? No, it doesn't - as the measure of the Gt4 is how fast it covers ground from 50 to 80 Mph and at that point it will leave anything bar a 911 Turbo in its wake - but again its not just about that turn of speed but rather how it gets there ... The Noise from the Mid engine, the Shotgun reloading of the gear shift, the incredible turn into a corner and the way it literally throws you out of a bend asthough on elastic is what has made the Gt4 arguably the best Sports car in the World ... In a way - this is what VW are trying to do with the CS-S ... Give the driver speed across ground and in setting a Nurburgring time just 5 seconds off the GT4 which is quicker than 360 Stradale and 430 - VW have created a true enthusiast driving car something that they have never aged to do with FWD or the horsepower the Golf has ever had .... Well done to VW :grin:
Well said and beautifully put :afro:
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Come on Guys ... I have a GT4 sat in the garage with a 0 to 60 time slower than the new Boxster S PDK ... Does this mean the Boxster is a faster car than a GT4 ...? No, it doesn't - as the measure of the Gt4 is how fast it covers ground from 50 to 80 Mph and at that point it will leave anything bar a 911 Turbo in its wake - but again its not just about that turn of speed but rather how it gets there ... The Noise from the Mid engine, the Shotgun reloading of the gear shift, the incredible turn into a corner and the way it literally throws you out of a bend asthough on elastic is what has made the Gt4 arguably the best Sports car in the World ... In a way - this is what VW are trying to do with the CS-S ... Give the driver speed across ground and in setting a Nurburgring time just 5 seconds off the GT4 which is quicker than 360 Stradale and 430 - VW have created a true enthusiast driving car something that they have never aged to do with FWD or the horsepower the Golf has ever had .... Well done to VW :grin:
Correction: "Come on guy" without an S. What you write above is what I've been saying throughout the whole thread by bringing up roll acceleration and actual speed through corners (Nurburgring resembles a b-road more than any other track in the world so it's quite indicative really). I'm sure it was clear to everybody else but I do have a soft spot for feeding trolls I admit that :tongue:
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Come on Guys ... I have a GT4 sat in the garage with a 0 to 60 time slower than the new Boxster S PDK ... Does this mean the Boxster is a faster car than a GT4 ...? No, it doesn't - as the measure of the Gt4 is how fast it covers ground from 50 to 80 Mph and at that point it will leave anything bar a 911 Turbo in its wake - but again its not just about that turn of speed but rather how it gets there ... The Noise from the Mid engine, the Shotgun reloading of the gear shift, the incredible turn into a corner and the way it literally throws you out of a bend asthough on elastic is what has made the Gt4 arguably the best Sports car in the World ... In a way - this is what VW are trying to do with the CS-S ... Give the driver speed across ground and in setting a Nurburgring time just 5 seconds off the GT4 which is quicker than 360 Stradale and 430 - VW have created a true enthusiast driving car something that they have never aged to do with FWD or the horsepower the Golf has ever had .... Well done to VW :grin:
Couldnt argue with that, ive got a couple of mates with gt4s and there definately a different breed of car
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I am new to the forum and have an allocation for a Clubsport S and was given "Black" as my pre-determined colour ..!
(sorry, bit late to this thread)
At last, someone else who had no choice of colour, I was told I was having black too.