S3 Intercooler vs Forge Intercooler

[Teutonic_Tamer]

This guy 07Noside on vwvortex has a GTi with the oem and forge twintercooler and his IAT was +5F above ambient at 6500rpm.

And in isolation, that graph proves what?  Without road speeds, that graph is completely meaningless.  Typical yanks! 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I will go s3 intercooler before i go stage 2 to be on the safe side.

There are no "safety" issues with using the standard GTI cooler with any other tuning mods.  Upgraded intercoolers merely enhance the cooling of the inlet air temps, and any excess IAT heat will simply lower the performance.  No damage will be caused by having too "hot" an IAT. 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

This guy 07Noside on vwvortex has a GTi with the oem and forge twintercooler and his IAT was +5F above ambient at 6500rpm.

So this means it performs like an S3 or not ??

No, that graph is simply showing the inlet air temperatures.  It can no way be construed that the graph will show any "performance" similarities of an S3 - unless, of course, you were specifically referring to the "performance" of only the IAT. 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

but doesn't it also cover some of the oe intercooler

It does but air does flow through its fins. Just think of it as being the same as the air conditioning conderser that sits in front of the oem IC.

Exactly.  And when the air con is being used, it is spewing hot air directly into the path of the "OEM" i/c cooling fins - standard GTI cooler or S3 cooler.

The Forge cooler is unaffected by any air-con useage, but it also has the advantage of also maintaining maximum air con efficiency, for two reasons - it is not closely "sandwiched" together with the air-con and coolant rad like the OEM mounted cooler, and secondly, the Forge is only "covering" roughly the bottom third of the air con condensor.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I only mean the flow coming throught the forge item, which then passes on to the oe intercooler, must be warmer because thats how intercoolers work.

But you have forgotten two three crucial issues.  The Forge is only covering the bottom third, in height of the OEM cooler.  Secondly, the air-con will also be sending hot air through the OEM cooler.  And finally, because the OEM cooler is bolted directly onto the v.hot engine coolant radiator, it will also be affected by heat conduction from the engine coolant.  The Forge suffers from none of these. 

I'm not knocking the forge item, it must work the figures prove it. But if you can have a more efficient stock intercooler as in replace it with the S3 one, there's no need for it.

But the Forge does have its own very specific advantages over the mounting position of the OEM cooler, be that the standard GTI cooler or the S3 cooler. 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

i'm not saying it doesn't work, but why not have a more efficient intercooler to start with,then you don't need this twintercooler set-up.
I'm not sideing with any product but its all about airflow

The S3 cooler is extremely efficient.  But that isn't the issue when comparing it with the additional mounted ones like the Forge.  The OEM has an inherent problem with where it is sited, and whilst the actuall S3 core does a very good job, it suffers from its' two extremely close "neighbours" - whereas the Forge side-step and addresses these very concerns - which is why the Forge (and similar mounted coolers) are seen to be very proficient too.  The Forge uses different "areas" of engineering and physics compared to the stock coolers to achieve better reductions in IAT.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

The main thing that put me off is the 2 pipes on the left hand side reducing into one, surely that cant flow smoothly through
Dont have any experience in that so i may be completely wrong.

Erm, that is what the turbo is for!    Providing the turbo has the capacity to provide the maximum flow rate at max rpms, then that won't be an issue.  Only on naturally aspirated cars would you need to be worried about such airflows.

If i had the money i would get my mate graham who owns grs mototrsport, to knock me up a custom intercooler. He is the master of intercoolers lol, he is very big on the ford rs scene ie cosworth and the new mini cooper s, the one for the mini performed much better than the forge one in back to back tests. It is also ranked as the best top mount available for the cooper s.

Snipage . . . .

Two very crucial issues.  Firstly you are talking of "custom builds" - which can be very expensive compared to "off the shelf" items such as the S3 or Forge.

Secondly, the Mini has a seriously compromised engine bay, and mounting of intercoolers is seriously compromised by a complete lack of space.  Top mounted intercoolers are hugely less efficient compared to an identical spec front mount intercooler.  Even side mount intercoolers are better than top mounts.

Sadly, the Mini is style before substance, and suffers from too many engineering compromises.

EDIT: Oh, and GRS welding in no better than either the Forge or OEM S3 welding! 

[djhorace]

Whats the problem with taking off the front "panel"?

It is quite a bit more difficult compared to just removing the bumper, and requires two pairs of axle stands, when most "home mechanics" will probably have just one pair.

The good thing about the S3 core is that it has OEM appearance, and it wont restrict air to the A/C core or the OEM Cooler, and it does give 20% decrease in inlet temp over the OEM core.

Agreed to a point.  Yes, the S3 is very "OEM", however, what you forget is the fact that both the standard GTI cooler and the S3 cooler will both be subjected to heat from the air-con condensor - not a huge issue for most of time here in Blighty, but for the OP in Malta, then the a/c condensor will be chucking out a fair bit of heat straight into the S3 cooler.  The is a huge advantage for the Forge.

Also, you could have an S3 core and a cat back exhaust for the price of a Forge unit.

But you have not taken labour charges into account!

I never used any axle stands. All that was needed was something to support the A/C,I/C,Radiator assembly when the Intercooler was getting removed. The job can be done with the wheels on the car and without it being jacked up

With regard to hotter countries, you may well be correct, but I can count on 1 hand the number of times I had on the A/C this year in the UK so for me at least, this is not an issue. For those in hot countries, S3 intercooler plus the likes of a twin core may be better. This has been tried and tested in the USA with good results.

With regard to labour charges, the likes of Star do the core change in 2 hours now which is less than £100. Add that to the £300 purchase price, and it still costs about half what a Forge Twintercooler costs without fitting.

I actually did a guide on how I did it and my memory was obviously getting crash bar and slam panel mixed up lol.

[RedRobin]

....

Excellent info!!

The only problem is that it's still difficult to decide which to fit - S3 i/c or Forge i/c? [Ignoring cost differences as I tend to do]. I expect you're going to say "Both!" T-T.

Just to throw another spanner in the works - I wonder what the Mk6 GTI i/c is like and whether it'll fit the Mk5. And does the latest 2009 S3 have the same i/c or have there been further VAG improvements?

[djhorace]

....

Excellent info!!

The only problem is that it's still difficult to decide which to fit - S3 i/c or Forge i/c? [Ignoring cost differences as I tend to do]. I expect you're going to say "Both!" T-T.

Just to throw another spanner in the works - I wonder what the Mk6 GTI i/c is like and whether it'll fit the Mk5. And does the latest 2009 S3 have the same i/c or have there been further VAG improvements?

Not sure if this is gonna be relevant to you RR. Before we fitted one of the S3 cores, we logged a Revo'd Cupra with a TBE and uprated air intake. Intake temperatures were approx 34oC max. On the same bit of road within 10 minutes, a standard MK1 Leon Cupra R with full exhaust, uprated intake, forge FMIC and standard code logged 30oC max intake temperature.

That was a difference of just over 10%. With the S3 core fitted, a stage 2 Leon Cupra will always return lower intake temperature than the standard Leon Cupra R with the Forge Front Mount.

I do not know of two indentical 2.0T cars, one with an S3 core and the other with a Forge Twintercooler to test back to back and compare inlet temps, but it would be interesting to see the result.