S3 Intercooler vs Forge Intercooler

[Teutonic_Tamer]

if you compare prices the S3 wins

But those prices refer just to the parts.  When you take the labour charges into account (if you can't/won't/don't want to fit them yourself), then it is quite a bit more difficult and time consuming to fit the S3 cooler - so taking the cost of both parts and labour together, then the prices will even up quite a bit. 

I think both do slightly dif jobs but to the same ends.

Yes, agreed.  Each one has distinct advantages over the other.

but then again you could fit both.

Yes, if you are after the ultimate in both cooling, and stability of cooling, then both should be considered. 

[RedRobin]

Things tail off quicker with high boost though Carl, even with the fuel pump. Boost 7 seems to be the best compronise between performance and sustainability of power/torque. B8 T6 and F8 for fun

....I'm on Boost 7 / Timing 5 / Fuel 9 (if anyone is interested!)

[Teutonic_Tamer]

my choice would be the S3 option, I looked into the forge option for the ED30, and IMO it does look a bit of a botch job. The S3 intercooler is apparantly very efficient and doesn't it work out cheaper than the forge 1, which is always nice

Hmmm - I don't think the Forge Twintercooler could ever be considered a "botch job"!    IMVHO, I reckon it is a very well engineered product, and because it is so easy to fit, can be easily removed and reverted back to OEM for whatever need.  Furthermore, you could also resell the Forge, whereas the S3 cooler would be a "fit and forget" item (in terms of removing it and selling it separately when you come to sell your car).  

And refer to one of my previous posts for comments on the costings.  

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Whats the problem with taking off the front "panel"?

It is quite a bit more difficult compared to just removing the bumper, and requires two pairs of axle stands, when most "home mechanics" will probably have just one pair.

The good thing about the S3 core is that it has OEM appearance, and it wont restrict air to the A/C core or the OEM Cooler, and it does give 20% decrease in inlet temp over the OEM core.

Agreed to a point.  Yes, the S3 is very "OEM", however, what you forget is the fact that both the standard GTI cooler and the S3 cooler will both be subjected to heat from the air-con condensor - not a huge issue for most of time here in Blighty, but for the OP in Malta, then the a/c condensor will be chucking out a fair bit of heat straight into the S3 cooler.  The is a huge advantage for the Forge.

Also, you could have an S3 core and a cat back exhaust for the price of a Forge unit.

But you have not taken labour charges into account!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....

Just looking at the purchase price of the S3 i/c and Forge i/c doesn't give you the true cost. So far I've had a quote of about £630 including vat for the S3 i/c.

Exactly.    If you have to pay for labour charges, then this massively ramps up the price of the S3 cooler, whereas the labour charges for the Forge will be considerably cheaper.   

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I think the good choice will be the S3,

Either the S3 cooler or the Forge cooler are both very good, and both have different advantages and disadvantages.  However, if you live in a hot country, and use the air con a lot - then the Forge has very clear advantages over the "OEM placement" of the S3 cooler.

I have seen APR insturction, they remove the complete front panel and headlamps to do it, I dont wish to mess with it.

Removing the bumper is no problem,

If you have a look at the Forge UK website, they have a colour downloadable PDF comprehensive fitting instructions for the Forge unit.

Furthermore, if you look in the "maintenance and info" subsection of this Mk5 forum, you should find my sticky thread for "free workshop manuals": http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=54324.0, which has PDFs of factory manuals for removing the "lock carrier" - also known as the bonnet slam panel - which holds the standard air con condensor, intercooler and radiator.  It isn't difficult, but it is quite time consuming, and requires some "out of the box" thinking, along with ideally a 2nd pair of hands.

Can you remove the intercooler without removing the front panel

If you mean the standard OEM cooler, then no.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

hi

I think the good choice will be the S3, I have seen APR insturction, they remove the complete front panel and headlamps to do it, I dont wish to mess with it.

Removing the bumper is no problem, Can you remove the intercooler without removing the front panel

Thanks

Nope. You do need to remove the headlights to take the slam panel off though, and there is a crash beam behind it too actually, but it is all just nuts and bolts.

As memory serves from the 2 I have done

Remove bumper - disconnect fog light wiring and piping to headlight washers.
Remove Slam Panel and headlights
Remove crash beam
Remove screws from core assemblies and support A/C core
Disconnect core piping
Remove OEM core

And put it all back with S3 core.

Once you have done one, they are easy.

Be sure to order screws to fit the S3 core as the plastic screws used on the GTi core are plastic as the core ends on the GTi core is plastic, and the thread is different. Also be sure to order S3 pipes as the connections to the cores are different.

You need to remove the crash bar before the slam panel.   

And any conventional M6 screw, appropriately cut to length will do.  There is no need for stainless steel screws, as mentioned in another thread - but it will be strongly advisable to use some anti-sieze paste, to prevent galvanic corrosion.  Nine bolts in total, M6 four about 19mm long, and the other five 22mm long (or it may be the other way round).  And don't be alarmed by the 8 bolts left over when the job is finished!   

[Teutonic_Tamer]

but the panel has to be removed right ??

I have seen APR instructions, they completly remove it, I am afriad of alignment issues when installing back

There is no real issues with alignment - of the slam panel or the headlamps.  Just make sure you "centre" the slam panel loosely on the mounting bolts, and do the same with the crashbar, before tightening everything.

With the headlamps, make sure you remove them only by undoing the torx screws.  Don't touch the larger "hex" plastic adjusters.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

data logged a S3 today with TBE, intake & DV settings boost 9 timing 6 afr 9

car had just driven 100miles hard and should have been heat soaked......intake temps maxxed at 30.....says it all for a £300 intercooler!!!!

But try that on a hot summers day, and compare runs with the air con off, then the same again with the air con on.  You will see a noticeable increase even with the S3 cooler. 

And don't forget, heat soak is at its most noticeable with high engine revs and low road speeds, such as blasting hard between hairpins in mountain passes.  If you are just giving it some on modestly high speeds on say m.ways, dual carriageways or normal A roads - then the speed of the forward motion of the car will be enough to quicky remove "heat soak".

Finally, don't forget that "heat soak" is a different scenario to general overall charge air cooling.       

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....

Just looking at the purchase price of the S3 i/c and Forge i/c doesn't give you the true cost. So far I've had a quote of about £630 including vat for the S3 i/c.

You need to show about a bit more Robin.
S3 intercooler - £280 ish incl vat, fitted at same times as Dbilas £132.  nice

....As I posted before , just looking at the purchase price doesn't give you the true price:

Yup, agreed.  But if anyone is able to fit it for themselves, then the S3 is a cheaper option.

The cost for an Audi S3 core alone (without the OEM hoses) is £214.21+ Vat  (£251.70 Inc Vat)

But that is a full retail price.  Ask nicely, or even set up a trade account, and you can get it for around £185 +vat.

The cost for Forge Silicone S3 hoses in red is £107.10 + Vat – (£125.84 Inc Vat) - Needed to fit my Turbo Charge & Discharge line.

But that is for your own specific example.      For the standard OEM hoses, around £63+vat for both.

The Labour time to fit the S3 core and the above hoses is 4 hours, therefore £200+ Vat (£235 Inc Vat)

4 hours labour would seem to be quite conservative, though not unreasonable if you have done the job before.  And hourly rates vary enormously too.

The Radiator needs to be drained down in order to fit the S3 core; therefore 2.5 litres of antifreeze will be required at £8.75+ vat (£10.28 inc Vat)

The rad certainly does not need draining.  None of the coolant or air con lines need to be touched at all! 

Or are you really trying to tell me that your S3 i/c only cost you "£280 ish" including labour - Perhaps you fitted it yourself.

That price would be without any labour costs.