Author Topic: DSG woe update  (Read 23395 times)

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #90 on: 13 August 2008, 14:24 »
They closed down due to a loss in revenue I assume. They had to pay for the planes and those huge hangers. I blame it on their marketing. There is another company now but its odd that they use the same website?

My dad says at one stage they even battled to pay him for the lubricants etc that he was supplying them.

**Sorry Hurdy**

So, are the jets still being flown by this new company, or have they been sold off for scrap or sommat?
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline 08micsta

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #91 on: 13 August 2008, 14:29 »
At one stage they were sold off but there is new team called Cheetah something or other and they use the newer more cost effective planes. I remember prices being a lot lower. But thunder City no longer runs the company. Same speed though  :evil:

_______________________________________________________________________

With regards to the DSG. I just had an idea. We have a friend. He is Russian and is an inventer of class and has built and created some extremely high quality products for my dad to help him in his industry.

Perhaps I should give him a call and ask him... Could be a project he might be interested in?
Hurdy can we possibly get all your cars info? mileage and what mods, power and torque she pushes?
TT can do with it as he likes and I can see what my inventor friend can suggest?

Does anyone have any links or anything to articles and diagrams of the DSG gerabox and its clutch packs etc etc so I can show him?

Thanks all
Mike


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #92 on: 13 August 2008, 15:08 »
Being as the DSG box must be drained of oil and removed from the car to the workbench to change the clutch, it would surely be a good time to fit the Quaiffe.  OK, you need to open up the physical casings to gain access to the diff, but this major open surgery would be a one-time-only, fit and forget exercise, because the Quaiffe itself (just like the standard diff) is completely maintenance-free.  Fitting the Quaiffe at this time should have an effect on the clutch durability.  OK, just like with the standard diff, the clutch will be taking the same amount of torque, however, the Quaiffe will have a smoothing effect on the clutch, with less "grip-slip-grip-slip" reaction "stresses" from the roadwheels.  This should provide a more "linear" stress on the clutch, rather than the "peaks and troughs" stresses which will occur with a conventional open diff.

....Without giving me as much detail as you have just posted T_T, this is more or less exactly what VW Racing have told me. The Quaife diff has many benefits for DSG and although relatively expensive it's a valuable mod which is easily overlooked. I shall be reporting after my session with VWR and will post as much info as I can, particularly as I am getting an improved Quaife diff version exclusive to VWR.

Also, advice on maintenance.  The standard maintenance for the DSG box is an oil and filter change every 4 years or 40k miles.  Not (yet  :wink:) knowing how many miles you have done, but guessing by the much shortened life of your clutch, I would seriously recommend changing the DSG oil and filter every year or 10k miles.  Sadly, that seems to be the price you might have to pay for putting such extreme amounts of torque through the DSG box.

....I've had my 40k miles DSG Service and I'll be listening to VWR's advice on future DSG oil change frequency. I already change my engine oil every 10k and plugs every 20k miles.

Hurdy, you've pushed the envelope and I'm not for a second suggesting you shouldn't have done, but your case is an excellent example of the sort of issues that have to be dealt with when you do. Personally I would question the wisdom of those who 'encouraged' you (Custom Code?), but that's just my personal opinion. Would you push the envelope so far again?

HTH

....There's always helpful content in your posts, even on the odd occasion that info doesn't match someone else's or a difference of opinion etc.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #93 on: 13 August 2008, 16:08 »
At one stage they were sold off but there is new team called Cheetah something or other and they use the newer more cost effective planes. I remember prices being a lot lower. But thunder City no longer runs the company. Same speed though  :evil:

Phew, so I can stop crying into my frosties!  :laugh:

EDIT: just re-read your post - so have they still got the Lightnings?

With regards to the DSG. I just had an idea. We have a friend. He is Russian and is an inventer of class and has built and created some extremely high quality products for my dad to help him in his industry.

Perhaps I should give him a call and ask him... Could be a project he might be interested in?
Hurdy can we possibly get all your cars info? mileage and what mods, power and torque she pushes?
TT can do with it as he likes and I can see what my inventor friend can suggest?

Does anyone have any links or anything to articles and diagrams of the DSG gerabox and its clutch packs etc etc so I can show him?

Pikturz of the Quaiffe install - http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/ - you gotta sort the wheat from the chaff, though!  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: 13 August 2008, 16:14 by Teutonic_Tamer »
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #94 on: 13 August 2008, 16:13 »
RR, at what mileage did you have your remap?

And did you get chance to examine the condition of the old oil and filter from the DSG?  Did the fresh oil make any difference to the quality of the shift changes?  And finally, can you remember how much you were charged for the DSG service?
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline Hurdy

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #95 on: 13 August 2008, 16:14 »
Hi TT,

Thanks for the info and your thoughts on the clutchpack. :cool:

A few answers for you TT

Yes, I am getting clutch slip from the off, but only on hard starts, if I set of normally or even on three quarters throttle then there is no clutch slip. 1st, 3rd and to a lesser extent 5th all get clutch slip under full accelleration. It doesn't last for long, but is long enough to fook up any chances of good 1/4 mile times.
Also the transfer from 1st to second is pants under full load. The engine hits full revs and then bounces off it as it can't engage 2nd cleanly (doesn't do this in other gear shifts as much, if at all)
I've covered nearly 11k miles from new. and the car has been remapped from around 2k.
Power has been dropped back to just over 300bhp and 300lbft and at this level the gearbox is behaving itself even on hard starts.

I think I'll go for the service and ask to see what the oil is like that is already in the 'box.

If the oil looks okay then would it be safe to say that the problem may not actually lie with the clutchpack?





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Offline 08micsta

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #96 on: 13 August 2008, 16:16 »
Thanks TT.

And what exactly needs to be upgraded? And how much torque etc must it handle and power must it be able to handle? Im dumb with engines. What exactly must I tell him to do?

**Edit. Hurdy just gave that info. Will find out**


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Offline 08micsta

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #97 on: 13 August 2008, 16:24 »


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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #98 on: 13 August 2008, 17:16 »
Hi TT,

Thanks for the info and your thoughts on the clutchpack. :cool:

Your welcome.  :smiley:

A few answers for you TT

Yes, I am getting clutch slip from the off, but only on hard starts, if I set of normally or even on three quarters throttle then there is no clutch slip. 1st, 3rd and to a lesser extent 5th all get clutch slip under full accelleration. It doesn't last for long, but is long enough to fook up any chances of good 1/4 mile times.

OK.  So, as you indicated earlier in the thread, you suspect just the outer "set" of the clutch pack is troublesome, which rightly concurrs with the "odd" numbered gear ratios, and initial thoughts would seem to back up this.  However, thinking more (and I don't doubt you, it's more just trying to ponder some other questions) - there is quite a difference in diameter between the outer and inner clutches.  The larger the diameter, the more torque it can handle.  So, you state you get slip in ALL odd gears - 1st, 3rd and 5th ???  Righty, if you try to follow my "engineering" logic - 2nd gear has a greater torque multiplication factor than 3rd and 5th - yet 2nd (and presumably 4th and 6th) are not slipping ??  If that IS the case, then whilst the inner "even" clutch is perfectly OK, I would strongly suggest that the outer "odd" clutch is fcuked.

OK, it may only be slipping under very high loads - but it is those very "high load slips" which really do the greatest damage.  If you think about a manual car - you slip the clutch every time you move from stationary in 1st or reverse.  That is normal operation, and clutches of those kinds of "treatment" can reasonably expected to achieve well over 100k miles before needing changing.  However, take the other extreme - a "drving school" type of car, or even those muppets on those "think you are a good driver" type of TV programme, where you see smoke belching from the clutch when someone tries (attrociously) to parallel park on a steep hill - those kinds of occurances can totally bu&&er a clutch extremely rapidly - the TV shows are extreme, but some learner driver cars can need new clutches after 5 or 10k miles.

Now, I'm certainly not trying to call into question your driving, but you are putting your clutch through some very extreme and harsh punishment, and because of this, I would concurr that your clutch (the odd one) is indeed knackered.  Now, it may continue to work under "light duty" for a while, however, I really wouldn't risk leaving it without changing it.  It may just completely give up one day - the plates may actually break, and they could then cause considerably more damage to the bell housing, or even the dual-mass flywheel.

Also the transfer from 1st to second is pants under full load. The engine hits full revs and then bounces off it as it can't engage 2nd cleanly (doesn't do this in other gear shifts as much, if at all)

Do you mean it's actually "holding on" to the rev limiter, and delaying the change?  Or is it trying to change, but can't, and the result is the engine momentarily running away with itself?

Does it also do it if, say, you only use half throttle (you'd have to be in manual mode), and wait for the box to reach the red-line to change from 1st to 2nd?

I'm wondering if your oil is actually contaminated in some way.  In terms of time, the change from 1st to 2nd (accelerating from standstill to redline, and therefore the next gear ratio) is going to be the shortest (maybe around a second), when compared to the time it takes for the box to go from 5th to 6th (still accelerating, and taking the time immediately from when 4th goes 5th, and then accelerates to the red line for 6th - six seconds, maybe?).  Because of the extremely short duration, maybe the oil is slightly clogged, and not releasing the outer clutch quickly enough??  That may be the cause of bouncing on the revlimiter at 1st to 2nd.  :undecided:  It probably doesn't affect the higher gears, because maybe the oil has had a longer period of time to "flush" the clutch release actuation cylinder.  Or maybe you have a "lazy" solenoid in the mechatronics module.  :undecided:

I've covered nearly 11k miles from new. and the car has been remapped from around 2k.

OK, so every 10k for a DSG oil and filter change would seem good "insurance".  Maybe 10k is still too long, maybe 5k ?  :undecided:

Power has been dropped back to just over 300bhp and 300lbft and at this level the gearbox is behaving itself even on hard starts.

What was the max power and torque you've had going through it?  Did you increase the power in "steps" or stages, or did you go from the standard map of 230PS, straight up to the max?  If you evolved it through stages, can you remember at what stage/bhp it started to play up?

I think I'll go for the service and ask to see what the oil is like that is already in the 'box.

If the oil looks okay then would it be safe to say that the problem may not actually lie with the clutchpack?

Hmm, your call - but I would personally recommend changing the clutch as a matter of urgency.

If you don't change the clutch, weather the oil is "clean" or not (maybe the filter is very efficient and "overengineered"), once clutches have started to slip, they will give up the will to live much sooner.

Going back to an old skool manual, with a cable operated clutch, once they start to slip, you may adjust the cable to take into account the different "bite point", but they rapidly go down hill, and you reach the end of the adjustment on the cable very quickly.  Just before I met my wife, she bought a Ford Capri, and her "so called" friend of the family "mechanic" knew the clutch was slipping, tried to adjust it, and fcuked the flywheel - Richard, you are incompetant waste of oxygen!  :angry:

There may be other reasons which toasted the clutch, but weather there are other reasons or not, IMVHO the clutch does need changing.  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: DSG woe update
« Reply #99 on: 13 August 2008, 17:25 »
TT... Is this the inside of a DSG Gearbox?  :shocked:



Link changed with "img" tags to display pic!  :tongue:

Yup!  :smug:

The large bit in the bottom right is the final drive assembly, and the Quaiffe is hidden below the tapered roller bearing.  The big chunky "castleated" teeth are used by the transmission lock, when the shift lever is in "P".

Sitting on the bench, slightly out of focus in the top right is the clutch pack.

Any more detail you wanna know?
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo