Winter Tyres

[Ess_Three]

TBH ben has a very valid point as he has backed up his statement.

does anyone have anything other than their personal opinion/logic that winter tyres should be fitted only to the front?

Yes...the last 8 years of using them.
I'd not get out of my driveway with them fitted to the rear only, because I have a FWD Golf.
That's not personal opinion or logic. It's fact. It's been a fact for the last 8 years., It'll still be a fact in 8 years time.

If you want to try a slalom at speed, you may very well lose the rear end...that'll teach you for being so fu*king stupid as to try a stunt like that.
However, with grippy winter tyres on the rear only, I'll not be trying a slalom at speed, or otherwise, as I'll be stick fast in my driveway.


Also, call be cynical, but fancy a tyre maker suggesting you fit 4 winter tyres!
Well I never.

[Rolfe]

Do NOT only fit two winter tyres, either to the front or back. Either stick to four summers and don't drive if you can't, or put on FOUR winters.

For a good example of why not, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA

You are potentially putting other people's lives at risk, as well as your own. I am shocked that people on this thread have had garages let them only put front winters on. It's like sending someone out on 4 bald tyres.

It wasn't so much let, with my garage, as that was all I could persuade him to fit!  I asked for all four, and he reluctantly got me two and fitted them on the front.  I think he needs a bit more education, because clearly four are preferable, and if a customer is prepared to pay for four, why not?

However, it's not that bad.  The point is, I drive as if the summer tyres were still on, and I don't get stuck.  It's the last part I like.

And also what Ess_Three just said.  It's not about driving a slalom at speed, it's about not getting stuck with your drive wheels spinning.  Which I experienced all too often last winter, and have not suffered at all this year despite near-identical conditions.

Rolfe.

[Ess_Three]

Do NOT only fit two winter tyres, either to the front or back. Either stick to four summers and don't drive if you can't, or put on FOUR winters.

For a good example of why not, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA

You are potentially putting other people's lives at risk, as well as your own. I am shocked that people on this thread have had garages let them only put front winters on. It's like sending someone out on 4 bald tyres.

You, sir, are a cretin for suggesting that people should stick to summer tyres over winters (even if only on the front).
Are you another shandy drinking southerner living on the south coast?
Do you live in the real world?

In snow, getting traction is the problem...even on summer tyres you'll get where you want to go if you can keep forward motion...winter tyres allow you to keep forward motion. In order to keep forward motion, you need to keep the driven wheels providing traction...the front wheels.

[Ess_Three]

I'm just wondering, how many of these internet experts quoting websites and posting links, actually deal with harsh winters year in, year out, and actually use snow tyres?

[Ben Lessani]

I'm just wondering, how many of these internet experts quoting websites and posting links, actually deal with harsh winters year in, year out, and actually use snow tyres?

For the past 4 years I've lived just outside of Milngavie - I've used 4 winter tyres or not driven!

Don't get my wrong I understand your point, but a balanced predictable loss of grip is much easier to cope with than an unbalanced, unpredictable loss of grip. Winters on the rear won't affect the dynamics of the car negatively, you would have understeer with/without, but winters only on the front can easily cause the rear to break traction - making you liable in the event of an accident.

[Rolfe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtAm7RsTmE

Note what happens around 1m30 on the next video (this is your front winters + all season rears)

Congratulations, you've proved that all four wheels are better than just the fronts, if you're going to brake hard at speed.  In other news, rain is still wet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA

Congratulations, you've proved that all four wheels are better than just two, whichever wheels the two are fitted on.  Precipitation remains damp.

It's not stated whether the car in that test is front or rear wheel drive.  More importantly, the test doesn't compare winters on front to winters on rear.  Your claim is that if you're only going to fit two winter tyres, you should put them on the rear wheels, even on a front-wheel-drive car.  That is still batcrap insane.

Yes, you are right, you'll move around a damn site faster with winter tyres on the front - and for this very reason, your the one likely to get caught out.

If your point is that you're less likely to have an accident if you can't get out of your drive, or the office car park, or the side street you incautiously turned into, than if you're actually driving around, then hey wow, you win.

However, if your aim is getting the car actually moving, as opposed to sitting stationary spinning its front wheels, then you still have two points to prove.  First, that putting winter tyres on the rear wheels gives any improvement over not fitting them at all, and second, that putting them on the rear wheels is better than putting them on the front wheels.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

For the past 4 years I've lived just outside of Milngavie - I've used 4 winter tyres or not driven!

So what's prompting you to suggest putting two winter tyres on the rear wheels only?  That's the ridiculous suggestion you're being mocked for.

Suggesting that all four should be changed and not just the front two is not a contentious point.

Rolfe.

[Ess_Three]

Getting back to the AutoSocks analogy, the recommendations for these are the product of a great deal of research, and they are approved by many car manufacturers, including VW.  They essentially turn summer tyres into winter ones (and then some).  The fitting instructions say, put them on the drive wheels.  They then say, if you have a rear-wheel-drive car, it is recommended to fit a second pair to the front wheels, otherwise you are likely to lose steering control.  There is no suggestion that a second rear pair is necessary on a front-wheel-drive car.  All the promotional videos show the things being used on front-wheel-drive cars, on the front wheels only.  They're not doing this because they're ignorant, ill-informed, or haven't done their research.

I'm going to email them and tell them they are actively making the roads more dangerous.
And as for Manufacturer and TUV approved - shock horror - these people obviously know nothing.
I'll suggest they read this thread for some education.

[Rolfe]

Getting back to the AutoSocks analogy, the recommendations for these are the product of a great deal of research, and they are approved by many car manufacturers, including VW.  They essentially turn summer tyres into winter ones (and then some).  The fitting instructions say, put them on the drive wheels.  They then say, if you have a rear-wheel-drive car, it is recommended to fit a second pair to the front wheels, otherwise you are likely to lose steering control.  There is no suggestion that a second rear pair is necessary on a front-wheel-drive car.  All the promotional videos show the things being used on front-wheel-drive cars, on the front wheels only.  They're not doing this because they're ignorant, ill-informed, or haven't done their research.

I'm going to email them and tell them they are actively making the roads more dangerous.
And as for Manufacturer and TUV approved - shock horror - these people obviously know nothing.
I'll suggest they read this thread for some education.

Of course, AutoSocks should not be driven on over 30mph, so it's not entirely comparable.  The horrors shown all happened at faster speeds, or performing silly manoeuvres.

However, I'd like to see what would happen to that car in the AutoSocks clip, if the things were put on the rear wheels.  My bet is it wouldn't be any different from the "before" performance.

The point about two winter tyres (in front) is not to be able to go round slaloms at speed, or tear along at the sort of speed that makes hard braking necessary, it's to get moving at all without having to drag AutoSocks on and off all the time.

Ben thinks putting the winter tyres on the rear would be better, but it seems he hasn't tried it himself and he has provided absolutely zero evidence to support his position.

Rolfe.

[Ess_Three]

- making you liable in the event of an accident.

Let's get one thing clear. Winter tyres are not mandatory in the UK...therefore, as long as your tyres - summer or otherwise - are legal, you will be no more or less liable in the event of an accident.
That's just the way it is in the UK.