GTD to GTi PP

[Talk-torque]

Daz Auto, a couple of comments on your GTI experience, so far. I too had a test drive in a brand new GTI, and found it less responsive than I expected. Like all cars, the GTI can be tight when new and mine, at 8,000 miles, is now very responsive and quicker, overall, than the GTD. Also, the driver mode settings seem to have more effect on performance with the GTI than with the GTD.

Due to the torque of the GTI being so close to that of the GTI, it is much easier to drive a GTI like a GTD than vica versa.

[Daz Auto]

...I too had a test drive in a brand new GTI, and found it less responsive than I expected. Like all cars, the GTI can be tight when new and mine, at 8,000 miles, is now very responsive and quicker, overall, than the GTD.

Thanks. The experience of owners is good to hear.

I need to arrange an extended test drive in a GTI with a few miles on it.

[Exonian]

I had a back to back drive of a GTI PP and a GTD, albeit briefly due to time constraints, pretty recently. Both fairly low mileage and both from cold.
If you want to know what they're like to drive flat out it's easier just to read a road test and watch YouTube videos which a lot of people seem to base their driving requirements on when buying a performance car. Naturally once fully warmed the petrol car has more BHP and revs higher than the Diesel so in a drag race there will only be one winner.

I owned a GTI for nearly 2 years and an R for exactly 18 months, I've had a few drives in GTD's during that time and the aforementioned back to back drive out more recently.

In the back to back test both cars were completely standard so unlike other drives I'd had where my GTI or R was lightly modified what's immediately noticeable is the obvious things like the noise (albeit this is disguised a little by the soundaktor) and the fact the petrol revs much more keenly. Some 2.0 TDI's I've driven are a bit reluctant to rev but the GTD unit seems quite free revving once warmed up but nowhere near a match for the petrol units, naturally.
I didn't treat the two cars to any standing start acceleration, just a bit of fast A road driving and some slower roads just to directly compare to satisfy my own curiosity.

On paper there's only a small difference in torque with the GTI's peak being at lower revs and over a longer rev band. In reality you've got to take into account the differences in gearing too.
The GTI is massively flexible and in a manual car you can put it in top gear at town speeds and use the torque to pull you up to speed with no fuss or drama pretty quickly. Even an R struggles to match that with the same aplomb.
I found the GTD with a manual gearbox needs to be driven like a 5 speed car if you want to make brisk progress. You have to change gear more often but you can hustle it pretty quickly on the torque.
The 184 TDI doesn't give you the same kick in the back as the older 170TDI's (particularly the PD units) but it seems to be more flexible than the older units too, but again, that could be to do with mapping out the turbo kick at around 2000rpm from the factory.
The GTI does seem to have a very flat power delivery. Where the R has a notable step after 4000rpm the GTI unit just feels linear. You'll notice that a lot less in a DSG.

Your own driving style will be the biggest factor in the difference between the models.
You'll find that as the car is warming up or if you don't want to draw attention to yourself by giving it full beans in the GTI it doesn't feel very quick off the mark (same for an R only more so) if you keep the revs under 4000rpm in an attempt at mechanical sympathy but once fully warmed the petrol units come into their own so long as you're prepared to use the full rev band.
The GTI is all pretty much over and done with by 5000 rpm anyway unlike the R which is till getting into its stride then but by that point the GTD is trailing way behind. That's flat out driving though.
In normal average driving they're all much of a muchness, you can be lazy with the petrol units and take A road roundabouts in fourth gear if you don't have to slow too much on entry whereas with the GTD you do have higher gearing and a turbo that doesn't do much below 2000pm (much like an R!) so you'll need to be in a lower gear for a given speed if you want decent acceleration back up to cruising speed.
In country lanes the GTD can be hustled along very quickly if you use the gears properly and the GTI likewise and in both cars you'll spin up the inside wheel if you're a bit brutal, VAQ diff or not.
I found the VAQ to be a bit of an enigma with my car. It makes entry into a bend very stable and the car doesn't understeer anywhere as much as you'd expect (it always felt sharper than the R to me) but having driven a standard GTI and GTD around the same roads, they're pretty darned accomplished too and shows the advances in traction control and handling on the MQB cars.
From a standing start with the wheels both pointing in the same direction the PP cars will still spin away their power if you're clumsy or brutal.
The VAQ is very subtle in operation (thankfully) and you'd need to be doing the right sort of driving for it to really come into effect on public roads. I'd imagine Benny on the 'ring made far more use of it than I ever did!

It's really hard to split them without blurring the lines but once the new tax bands come in and the manual GTD draws a much higher annual VED on top of Diesel being dearer than 95RON then running cost wise there won't be a huge running cost difference for an average mileage driver so you have to look purely at driving dynamics.
The GTI would have to take the nod there unless.
I have to say though that although I was disappointed in the way the DSG masked the GTD's torque kick on my short drive with one of those when my colleague was at the helm (it was a hire car) it suddenly felt surprisingly quick in Sport Mode from the passenger seat!

The easiest way to sum it up for me would be that on different days you'd probably wish you bought a different model, unless you drive flat out quite a lot. If the latter then buy an R as once those things get in their stride there's really nothing to come close in the VW range.


 

[monkeyhanger]

It is a huge change going from a GTD (and 7 previous TDIs) to an R. Lazy torque to milking the whole gear to get the best of it at the top end. If you keep the R below 4k revs it is no quicker than a GTD driven to its potential. From that point of view all of the performance Golfs have a narrow band of power/torque to exploit to get the best out of them. The R really wakes up at 4k revs to 6.5k revs. My wife's A1 TDI has a wider range of usable torque than the GTD I used to have - it is eager right to the red line, albeit with a lot less power.

Just reviewed an old pedal box comment by Exonian related to his "primate" legs and imagined a pedal box like "short round" driving the getaway car in "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" A fat block of wood on each foot to reach the pedals.

[Exonian]

It's not just VAG 2.0 vs 1.6 turbo Diesels that feel like that.
Jump in a MINI and the 1.6 Diesel has a power band from just over tickover until nearly the red line and revs almost like a petrol yet the 2.0 SD is more like a VAG 2.0 TDI so it must be down to inertia, camshaft profile, flywheel and turbo size. Or something vaguely like that.

[GTI_Ant]

I had a back to back drive of a GTI PP and a GTD, albeit briefly due to time constraints, pretty recently. Both fairly low mileage and both from cold.
If you want to know what they're like to drive flat out it's easier just to read a road test and watch YouTube videos which a lot of people seem to base their driving requirements on when buying a performance car. Naturally once fully warmed the petrol car has more BHP and revs higher than the Diesel so in a drag race there will only be one winner.

I owned a GTI for nearly 2 years and an R for exactly 18 months, I've had a few drives in GTD's during that time and the aforementioned back to back drive out more recently.

In the back to back test both cars were completely standard so unlike other drives I'd had where my GTI or R was lightly modified what's immediately noticeable is the obvious things like the noise (albeit this is disguised a little by the soundaktor) and the fact the petrol revs much more keenly. Some 2.0 TDI's I've driven are a bit reluctant to rev but the GTD unit seems quite free revving once warmed up but nowhere near a match for the petrol units, naturally.
I didn't treat the two cars to any standing start acceleration, just a bit of fast A road driving and some slower roads just to directly compare to satisfy my own curiosity.

On paper there's only a small difference in torque with the GTI's peak being at lower revs and over a longer rev band. In reality you've got to take into account the differences in gearing too.
The GTI is massively flexible and in a manual car you can put it in top gear at town speeds and use the torque to pull you up to speed with no fuss or drama pretty quickly. Even an R struggles to match that with the same aplomb.
I found the GTD with a manual gearbox needs to be driven like a 5 speed car if you want to make brisk progress. You have to change gear more often but you can hustle it pretty quickly on the torque.
The 184 TDI doesn't give you the same kick in the back as the older 170TDI's (particularly the PD units) but it seems to be more flexible than the older units too, but again, that could be to do with mapping out the turbo kick at around 2000rpm from the factory.
The GTI does seem to have a very flat power delivery. Where the R has a notable step after 4000rpm the GTI unit just feels linear. You'll notice that a lot less in a DSG.

Your own driving style will be the biggest factor in the difference between the models.
You'll find that as the car is warming up or if you don't want to draw attention to yourself by giving it full beans in the GTI it doesn't feel very quick off the mark (same for an R only more so) if you keep the revs under 4000rpm in an attempt at mechanical sympathy but once fully warmed the petrol units come into their own so long as you're prepared to use the full rev band.
The GTI is all pretty much over and done with by 5000 rpm anyway unlike the R which is till getting into its stride then but by that point the GTD is trailing way behind. That's flat out driving though.
In normal average driving they're all much of a muchness, you can be lazy with the petrol units and take A road roundabouts in fourth gear if you don't have to slow too much on entry whereas with the GTD you do have higher gearing and a turbo that doesn't do much below 2000pm (much like an R!) so you'll need to be in a lower gear for a given speed if you want decent acceleration back up to cruising speed.
In country lanes the GTD can be hustled along very quickly if you use the gears properly and the GTI likewise and in both cars you'll spin up the inside wheel if you're a bit brutal, VAQ diff or not.
I found the VAQ to be a bit of an enigma with my car. It makes entry into a bend very stable and the car doesn't understeer anywhere as much as you'd expect (it always felt sharper than the R to me) but having driven a standard GTI and GTD around the same roads, they're pretty darned accomplished too and shows the advances in traction control and handling on the MQB cars.
From a standing start with the wheels both pointing in the same direction the PP cars will still spin away their power if you're clumsy or brutal.
The VAQ is very subtle in operation (thankfully) and you'd need to be doing the right sort of driving for it to really come into effect on public roads. I'd imagine Benny on the 'ring made far more use of it than I ever did!

It's really hard to split them without blurring the lines but once the new tax bands come in and the manual GTD draws a much higher annual VED on top of Diesel being dearer than 95RON then running cost wise there won't be a huge running cost difference for an average mileage driver so you have to look purely at driving dynamics.
The GTI would have to take the nod there unless.
I have to say though that although I was disappointed in the way the DSG masked the GTD's torque kick on my short drive with one of those when my colleague was at the helm (it was a hire car) it suddenly felt surprisingly quick in Sport Mode from the passenger seat!

The easiest way to sum it up for me would be that on different days you'd probably wish you bought a different model, unless you drive flat out quite a lot. If the latter then buy an R as once those things get in their stride there's really nothing to come close in the VW range.

This is a great write up. The sharper feel of the GTi is probably due to the extra 100 Kg of fat you're lugging around in the R. There used to be a time when a good hot hatch had to weigh less than 1000 Kg but those days are long gone.

You mention the diff, have you an idea of the difference in normal driving between placing this in normal and sport mode? I haven't noticed it but then I don't want to end up in a ditch.

[Daz Auto]

Exonian, great write up. I like this bit, "on different days you'd probably wish you'd bought a different model..."

As people here have said, there is no bad choice.

[Exonian]

This is a great write up. The sharper feel of the GTi is probably due to the extra 100 Kg of fat you're lugging around in the R. There used to be a time when a good hot hatch had to weigh less than 1000 Kg but those days are long gone.

You mention the diff, have you an idea of the difference in normal driving between placing this in normal and sport mode? I haven't noticed it but then I don't want to end up in a ditch.

Thanks Ant

It's a bit bitty and doesn't flow very well but I had to write it bit by bit whilst battling with autocorrect and typos. So the grammar isn't good either.
But so long as it's readable. I just wanted to put my thoughts into the mix whilst it was still pretty fresh in my mind.

From memory the VAQ should be sharper in Sport mode but the chassis is so good and the VAQ so subtle it's hard to tell.
The GTI did feel sharper than the R but the R feels more stable for want of a better word. It's hard for me to put in print but the two cars chassis do feel different, yet similar.

There's no getting away from the increasing weight of these 4wd uber-hatches but it's quite well countered by the advances in chassis, engine power and response and sheer grip.

Exonian, great write up. I like this bit, "on different days you'd probably wish you'd bought a different model..."

As people here have said, there is no bad choice.

Thanks Daz.
Again apologies for the layout and grammar.

I did find that driving the GTD you'd just be getting into stride as the torque punches you through the revs pretty smoothly and suddenly you run out of revs and need another gear quick smart. Yet cruising leisurely at lowish revs and it just purred along at speed.

With the GTI, like the R, unless you really gunned it off the line using the whole rev range the first two gears seem a bit too low considering the ample torque on hand.
And the flexibility of the GTI is supreme. It just pulls in any gear super smoothly.

As for the R. It has its downsides but not many; give it a bit of throttle at 60mph in sixth and it just shoots forward like many other cars would in third gear! It's very punchy at speed. The GTI isn't far behind at fairly sensible speeds. Once you get into licence losing territories though, the R just flies. It has a very progressive yet marked transition from GTI quick to almost supercar quick once the turbo comes on full song.

All great cars and each suits a different driving style. The GTI sits as a good midway point, so probably still the best all-round compromise it always was.

[Daz Auto]

Below is a comparison of my Mk6 GTD to the Mk7 GTD, Mk7 GTI and Mk7 R. I like to compare the stats of my car to the cars I'm interested in buying. I know the website data may not be accurate. For a start - I thought the Mk7 was supposed to be lighter.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/v0k77r4chtum

I'm not really interested in 0-62 times or top speed. I'm am very interested in how a car will be for quick, safe overtaking.

Therefore, from the website data I have worked out the 62mph to 100mph times. Note: 100kph = 62mph, 160kph = 100mph, subtracting the numbers = 62mph to 100mph?

Mk6 GTD        20-7.8= 12.2 sec
Mk7 GTD     18.5-7.5= 11sec
Mk7 GTI PP    14.1-6= 8.1sec
Mk7 Golf R  11.2-4.8= 6.4sec

Obviously the Golf R is the best, but the GTI is good too. I doubt if I would notice much difference in performance moving from my car to a Mk7 GTD - and I want a noticeable change.