GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: john_o on 30 September 2008, 23:07
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blatant lift from uk-mkivs but far too cool a product to not be discussed here too
http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/163-%20mk5%20anti%20lift.pdf
http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?recnumber=107418
theres a thread there too.
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/221014.aspx (http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/221014.aspx) cough
Just ordered a set £139 + will be a cost for alignment afterwards
:evil:
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Also available (along similar lines - improving handling) is a negative camber setup by Morego - costs around £450 iirc..
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Also available (along similar lines - improving handling) is a negative camber setup by Morego - costs around £450 iirc..
....But possibly be prepared for uneven tyre wear and changing tyres rather more often! A friend with Morego wishbones has had this problem.
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Also available (along similar lines - improving handling) is a negative camber setup by Morego - costs around £450 iirc..
....But possibly be prepared for uneven tyre wear and changing tyres rather more often! A friend with Morego wishbones has had this problem.
Yes, agreed. But the stuff from Morego alters the camber, whereas the Whiteline kit alters the castor, and works in more of a "dynamic" way, than the old skool method of altering camber. Furthermore, I don't really know much about Morego, but they don't seem to have any real heritage, particularly with VAG marques. :undecided:
The Whiteline kit does look quality though. :smiley:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
.... :shocked: You just answered the exact question I was about to ask!! :shocked:
:afro:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
.... :shocked: You just answered the exact question I was about to ask!! :shocked:
:afro:
I thought I'd beat you too it for a change! :tongue: :grin:
They are actually a cheap mod, and on an "improvement per £££" ratio, I reckon would be extremely cost effective, and are an easy DIY fit.
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phew , TT agrees its a good mod :grin:
The last time I applied castor changes was with adjustable arms on a old mini :shocked:
Castor effects self centering effort , am I safe to assume it will make the steering heavier in the off centre position?
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:huh:
Can somebody explain how this helps the handling please? :embarassed:
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:huh:
Can somebody explain how this helps the handling please? :embarassed:
....To quote Julian from Balance Motorsport : -
"Whiteline anti-lift kit actually increases +0.5 static caster not camber. Whiteline don't believe in increasing static camber unless absolutely necassary where as extra positive caster delivers a lot of real world performance benefits, not least of which is better turn in response and more dymanic negative camber on turns. We would estimate that actual improvements in dynamic caster would be in excess of +1.0 degree.
The main aspect of the geometry change is actually the Anti-lift component and the related outcomes. Our experience has shown that we can significanlty reduce understeer and corner exit speed by reducing the stock amount of front anti-lift and this is responsible for most of the other positives felt in the driving."
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Cheers Red!
I think I will need all the other bits such as Dog-bone insert and ARBs before I go for this kit.
:smiley:
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Cheers Red!
I think I will need all the other bits such as Dog-bone insert and ARBs before I go for this kit.
:smiley:
....A suspension package consists of quite a number of components - Modding is a slippery slope!
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Just had the Morego negative camer wishbones removed, they claim to be for both manual and DSG but made a knocking noise on my DSG, also wore a 2" bald patch on the inside of the tyre in just 4 weeks (with one track day).
The turn in and grip in corners is much improved though, you just have to live with desecrating the rubber resorces.
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phew , TT agrees its a good mod :grin:
:afro:
The last time I applied castor changes was with adjustable arms on a old mini :shocked:
Showing your age, or just an enthusiast? :smiley:
Castor effects self centering effort , am I safe to assume it will make the steering heavier in the off centre position?
Pedant mode - The effect of castor is only felt during forward motion. "Swivel axis inclination" (the modern term for "king pin inclination" or KPI), works with the mass of the vehicle to provide a "static" self-centering effect, and this is then assisted by the castor.
Increases in castor angles will simply make the self-centering effect more pronounced, and may be felt as heavier steering, though with the amounts from the Whiteline kit, I doubt it would be that noticeable at the steering wheel.
Dependent on the overall "dynamic" geometery, increases in castor can also increase the handling effects of the inner front roadwheels during hard cornering, though the only adverse affect is on bumpy corners, which will then give more "feedback" through the steering wheel - again, shouldn't be a problem with the small increases.
EDIT: on Reds corrections! :tongue: :smiley:
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Cheers Red!
I think I will need all the other bits such as Dog-bone insert and ARBs before I go for this kit.
:smiley:
Not necessarily. This anti-lift kit will actually keep the front end tracking far more efficiently than the increase in roll stiffness proposed by uprated ARBs.
And an uprated dog bone will do fcuk all for improving cornering handling. :nerd:
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Just had the Morego negative camer wishbones removed, they claim to be for both manual and DSG but made a knocking noise on my DSG, also wore a 2" bald patch on the inside of the tyre in just 4 weeks (with one track day).
The turn in and grip in corners is much improved though, you just have to live with desecrating the rubber resorces.
Interesting comments, thanks. :smiley:
Increasing negative camber angles is always seen as a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach - whilst it does provide good improvements in cornering handling, its negative effects far outweigh any benefits on a road car.
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Just had the Morego negative camer wishbones removed, they claim to be for both manual and DSG but made a knocking noise on my DSG, also wore a 2" bald patch on the inside of the tyre in just 4 weeks (with one track day).
The turn in and grip in corners is much improved though, you just have to live with desecrating the rubber resorces.
....Although it costs more, I would venture to suggest that a 'limited slip diff' is more effective. And if you add the Whiteline AntiLift Kit as well...............
Your Morego wishbone experience matches my friend's - Goodyear Assymetrics rendered illegal but with loads of centre tread remaining - Not what you want. He's using KW V3's and probably his settings didn't help.
Off-topic but I think that a friend of yours - 'invalid'd' due to pushbike accident(?) - Was helped out by Mark at VWR and is enjoying racing a Mk5 GTI.
Safe n Fun Journeys, mate :afro:
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Just had the Morego negative camer wishbones removed, they claim to be for both manual and DSG but made a knocking noise on my DSG, also wore a 2" bald patch on the inside of the tyre in just 4 weeks (with one track day).
The turn in and grip in corners is much improved though, you just have to live with desecrating the rubber resorces.
Interesting comments, thanks. :smiley:
Increasing negative camber angles is always seen as a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach - whilst it does provide good improvements in cornering handling, its negative effects far outweigh any benefits on a road car.
Fortunately due to the knocking problem they replaced them with the originals and gave me a refund, the WALK Kits look interesting, I'll need some one to give me an Idiots Guide To..... how they work.
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Pedant mode ....................
Dependent on the overall "dynamic" geometery, increases in castor can also increase the handling effects of the inner front roadwheels during hard cornering, though the only adverse affect is on bumpy corners, which will then give more "feedback" through the steering wheel - again, should be a problem with the small increases.
....My turn to be in pedant mode :grin: - I think you probably meant to write: "shouldn't be a problem"
:afro:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
....Encouraged by your post, I've just gone and ordered the Whiteline AntiLift Kit. Offered with discount at the moment too.
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Off-topic but I think that a friend of yours - 'invalid'd' due to pushbike accident(?) - Was helped out by Mark at VWR and is enjoying racing a Mk5 GTI.
Safe n Fun Journeys, mate :afro:
Yes thats Simon, I was at Silverstone with him last week I think I met Mark there as well. Simons pretty hard core his Gti is ready to race in the VW race series but he has had problems getting a race licence due to getting in and out in a certain time. He's just back from a round trip to Spa and the Ring, lucky ba****d.
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....Although it costs more, I would venture to suggest that a 'limited slip diff' is more effective. And if you add the Whiteline AntiLift Kit as well...............
I agree that a Quaife ATB would be a better option - but only under hard traction. But it is a seriously expensive bit of kit, and requires major modification, consisting of "open heart surgery" on your gearbox. The Whiteline kit will work during acceleration, constant throttle, trailing throttle, or even harsh braking! :tongue:
Pound for pound, and comparing the results, the LSD is way more expensive and less "efficient per ££££" when compared to the relatively cheap Whiteline kit. Furthermore, the Whiteline kit can easily be reverted back to OEM, to re-sell at a later date - and you would recoup your costs from a 2nd owner. With the LSD, it is extremely doubtfull that you would ever revert it back to standard, and unless you seriously found a buyer for your car who genuinely appreciated and understood the benefits of Quaife, then those mega bucks will be all but lost
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Just had the Morego negative camer wishbones removed, they claim to be for both manual and DSG but made a knocking noise on my DSG, also wore a 2" bald patch on the inside of the tyre in just 4 weeks (with one track day).
The turn in and grip in corners is much improved though, you just have to live with desecrating the rubber resorces.
Interesting comments, thanks. :smiley:
Increasing negative camber angles is always seen as a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach - whilst it does provide good improvements in cornering handling, its negative effects far outweigh any benefits on a road car.
Fortunately due to the knocking problem they replaced them with the originals and gave me a refund, the WALK Kits look interesting, I'll need some one to give me an Idiots Guide To..... how they work.
What more do you need to know about them? It is nearly dinner time, and SWMBO is nagging, :rolleyes: so I may need to return later to this . . . .
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Pedant mode ....................
Dependent on the overall "dynamic" geometery, increases in castor can also increase the handling effects of the inner front roadwheels during hard cornering, though the only adverse affect is on bumpy corners, which will then give more "feedback" through the steering wheel - again, should be a problem with the small increases.
....My turn to be in pedant mode :grin: - I think you probably meant to write: "shouldn't be a problem"
:afro:
Yup - thats what happens when you have a SWMBO nagging in one ear! :rolleyes: :grin:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
....Encouraged by your post, I've just gone and ordered the Whiteline AntiLift Kit. Offered with discount at the moment too.
From who? How much? Group buy??? :evil:
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Sean - My SWMBO is only 17yo and wants dinner! Being a single parent, I'm the cook and she's the boss! They start young!! :laugh:
Later, guys :afro:
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Oh, and I reckon the Whiteline kit will really add to the benefit of the Quaife ATB diff, because it is hard cornering where the Whiteline anti-lift kit has been specifically designed for. :wink: :cool:
....Encouraged by your post, I've just gone and ordered the Whiteline AntiLift Kit. Offered with discount at the moment too.
From who? How much? Group buy??? :evil:
....My SWMBO is going to murder me! :rolleyes:
Not a group buy but a limited time offer (they say) : - http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/main.asp?sitepages=ContactPage (http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/main.asp?sitepages=ContactPage)
Bon Appetit! :grin:
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Showing your age, or just an enthusiast? :smiley:
bit of both , but like to get my hands dirty too :evil:
Great info thanks TT
Transaction confirmation today , so should get them soon.
My first 'true' mod !
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which leads me nicely onto
suspension parameters setup , should it be different for this kit? , or even tweaked from the 'common' vw figures?
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....Although it costs more, I would venture to suggest that a 'limited slip diff' is more effective. And if you add the Whiteline AntiLift Kit as well...............
I agree that a Quaife ATB would be a better option - but only under hard traction. But it is a seriously expensive bit of kit, and requires major modification, consisting of "open heart surgery" on your gearbox. The Whiteline kit will work during acceleration, constant throttle, trailing throttle, or even harsh braking! :tongue:
Pound for pound, and comparing the results, the LSD is way more expensive and less "efficient per ££££" when compared to the relatively cheap Whiteline kit. Furthermore, the Whiteline kit can easily be reverted back to OEM, to re-sell at a later date - and you would recoup your costs from a 2nd owner. With the LSD, it is extremely doubtfull that you would ever revert it back to standard, and unless you seriously found a buyer for your car who genuinely appreciated and understood the benefits of Quaife, then those mega bucks will be all but lost
....I have yet to have my session at Bruntingthorpe when VWR will demonstrate my car's fuller potential with Quaife ATB and where I will also be in the driver's seat. Until then I have been approaching bends etc more confidently/strongly but not wanting to find the limit on public roads. Whereas I agree with you that it comes into its own while under hard traction, I have nevertheless found that the whole 'feel' of the car around corners is more steady and with less inclination to light up the ESP. It feels very seamless. I haven't had the opportunity to try it in the wet yet.
I don't feel that the Whiteline kit is a substitute for the Quaife ATB but can see, as you have suggested, how complimentary they would be when used together.
I wouldn't bother to revert to my stock DSG diff - I've spent the megabucks for my enjoyment and am not fussed about any financial return later. I expect that the sort of person who will be interested in buying my car (one day far ahead) will either love the bonus of it's diff and brakes etc or will simply buy it as a car they like for what it is and its driveability. The great bonus about selling a car like the GTI some time well into the future is that it is likely to be sought after - Rather like Mk2's are now. It's not a company car or one which will only be owned for 3 years and moved on - It's customised for my enjoyment and nothing else - I ignore the ££££-efficiency and don't even think about it.
Many may think I'm mad but life isn't a rehearsal and I like to enjoy the life itself. IMO too many people are driven by chasing the dollar - I prefer to chase the vision. It was Black Crow in the 1880's who said that the white man chases the dollar but the red man chases the vision.
:afro:
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arrived today , really well made and they are somewhat enormous!
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arrived today , really well made and they are somewhat enormous!
Are you fitting this yourself John_o, or do you know a good place local to us. :smiley:
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I have some other work planned so probably get Awesome/Prosport/ANOther tuner to do it.
Needs alignment done afterwards as well , so you wouldnt want to be running around too long after fitting.
Will post fitting guide up later.
JohnO
heres the fitting kit instructions (right click save as)
http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/whiteline_anti_lift_kit_instructions.jpg (http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/whiteline_anti_lift_kit_instructions.jpg)
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....
^Cheers, john_o :afro:
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I have some other work planned so probably get Awesome/Prosport/ANOther tuner to do it.
Needs alignment done afterwards as well , so you wouldnt want to be running around too long after fitting.
Will post fitting guide up later.
JohnO
heres the fitting kit instructions (right click save as)
http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/whiteline_anti_lift_kit_instructions.jpg (http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/whiteline_anti_lift_kit_instructions.jpg)
If I was you John it would be awesome doing this job for me, they have the necessary experience of the mk5 and set-up for this type of job
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arrived today , really well made and they are somewhat enormous!
My order is in + he did me a great deal on another set-up mod so got that from him as well. :wink:
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cool , go on squeal TC ......... what is it? :evil:
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Also available (along similar lines - improving handling) is a negative camber setup by Morego - costs around £450 iirc..
....But possibly be prepared for uneven tyre wear and changing tyres rather more often! A friend with Morego wishbones has had this problem.
Yes, agreed. But the stuff from Morego alters the camber, whereas the Whiteline kit alters the castor, and works in more of a "dynamic" way, than the old skool method of altering camber. Furthermore, I don't really know much about Morego, but they don't seem to have any real heritage, particularly with VAG marques. :undecided:
The Whiteline kit does look quality though. :smiley:
Morego have plenty of VAG tuning heritage as they used to be 'GTI Engineering' (they were one of the original people in the UK doing tuning on the Mk1 Golf GTI!
http://www.morego.co.uk/bbr-gti/gti.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTi_Engineering
http://www.vw-one.co.uk/GTI%20Engine.htm
(http://www.vw-one.co.uk/GTI%20Engineering%20half%20ad.jpg)
:smiley:
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cool , go on squeal TC ......... what is it? :evil:
well i didnt want to get the alignment done twice. :smug:
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swine :smiley: , always gotta go one better :cool:
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the problem is figuring out how to stop her indoors getting to the bank statement first :tongue: she wont notice anything different with the car but she does look at the statements if i am working away. :sick:
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is alignment/geometry check necessary with this mod?
it alters castor angles which is a front/back thing so doesn't change static toe or camber which is more side to side.
so in theory wheels should be in line just as before?
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^^^^
Whiteline recommend alignment after fitting.
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is alignment/geometry check necessary with this mod?
it alters castor angles which is a front/back thing so doesn't change static toe or camber which is more side to side.
so in theory wheels should be in line just as before?
Me stupid but after reading the fitting instructions 3 times, from what i can tell as long as you put it back exactly as you took it off then i cant see why it needs to be re-aligned. :undecided:
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....
On Friday I took the opportunity to grab this pic of the oem part. Sorry it's not sharp but.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Castor_oem.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/robertsm2006/P1020213.jpg)
^Comparison pic of Whiteline^
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I recognise this thread....
The kit is awesome, the more I get used to the having it, the better it gets. You do have to get it re-aligned too, so factor that in.
If anyone wants to ask anything, please feel free.
Mike.
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Hi Mike , yeah its your thread really :grin:
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LOL - nah, I'm not precious, it's good to share.
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I recognise this thread....
The kit is awesome, the more I get used to the having it, the better it gets. You do have to get it re-aligned too, so factor that in.
If anyone wants to ask anything, please feel free.
Mike.
Hello again that Tony :laugh:
I know they recommend to get the alignment done and thats cool with the KW's getting fitted at the same time they will be doing it to mine any how.
But as a few people on here will testify im stupid and cant figure out why alignment needs to be done after fitting this kit. :undecided:
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It's super difficult to explain and is quite complex - I know plenty of wheel alignment places employ clowns who only know how to make it track in a straight line/achieve even tyre wear to a basic set of rules (toe, camber etc.), so you'd think it was simple.. but when you see someone using a proper 4-wheel alignment machine and realise how many different variables there are and how they manipulate those to achieve what you want, it blows your mind a bit.
Votex have access to a Cartek Bear Robotics 4-wheel aligner, a serious bit of computerised kit. You dial in your settings and away you go. It measures each wheel in god knows how many ways and then applies that as a whole to the car. If/when you go down there, speak to them about what you want from the car. They're really knowledgeable and more importantly listen and tell you whether something is actually worth doing, even if that means doing themselves out of business by talking you out of fitting/doing something that has little or no effect.. we all know how many tuning products are actually nothing better than cosmetic add ons, but it doesn't stop them being sold on the "potential" to alter x, y and z. That's the difference between some sales focussed businesses that fit parts and a true specialist - agenda.
I see them as a consultant, we discuss what I want, they advise on how to achieve it and then set the car up with whatever I buy in. They do have very good contacts with the major players and compete accordingly on price, but equally they have no issue with me sourcing random parts from elsewhere and just have them do the fitting.
They're quite well known in the Seat camp, given that James Pickford (who won the Cupra Cup championship a while back) is the owner's son, and Votex built the Cupra he won it with. They've worked closely with ABT and their development and also there's the Revo connection, because they understand how their maps work rather than just being an agent flashing cars.
It's not the prettiest, flashiest of places - but they do it right and trade on their reputation, and because of that they're always very busy. I think Mike (who looks after mine) is on holiday till early next week, but speak to them and have a chat about yours.
http://www.votex.ltd.uk/index.php
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Hey that Tony, thanks for the detailed heads up its much appreciated.
Now that your a registered user :laugh: i hope you will be coming over from the dark side to visit here more often. :wink:
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Castor_oem.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Whiteline_castor.jpg)
....Ready and waiting for installation when VWR tweak my suspension with KW's.
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Is this kit designed to stop the rear wheel cocking up as it tends to do at high speed cornering???.
TC, you have trackday suspention fitted to yours?
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No, in very simple terms it gives the effect of pushing the inside wheel down to minimise wheel spin and gives camber to the outside one to increase its 'footprint'. Mine still picks up a rear :grin:
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Is this kit designed to stop the rear wheel cocking up as it tends to do at high speed cornering???.
TC, you have trackday suspention fitted to yours?
I am not to sure what your asking there Phil. :undecided:
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Sorry TC, i thought these go well with lowered suspention,(coilovers) but just realised thats what your postie bought you today (dumbass) :smiley:
Sorry need some strong coffee!
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No, in very simple terms it gives the effect of pushing the inside wheel down to minimise wheel spin and gives camber to the outside one to increase its 'footprint'.
So if I understand this correctly, the actual "arc" of the suspension travel is modified - and this keeps a more constant camber angle during body roll?
Mine still picks up a rear :grin:
But that is OK - because the rears aint doing too much work, especially the inside rear. :wink: :smiley:
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I'm not sure what you mean by "arc", but I think you mean the steering axis?
Image the top of the strut, the centre of the hub and the point where the tyre contacts the surface - most cars will have a vertical line through this and this is the steering axis. The kit creates a postive axis by moving the hub forwards so the vertical line is now an angle, so the steering axis is slightly in front of the point where the tyre comes into contact with the surface. This creates caster, so the wheel follows the strut like a shopping trolley's does. What it also does is give dynamic camber, positive on the inside wheel and negative on the outside wheel, so it is true in a straight line and the more you turn the wheel, the more camber you get.. so not so useful in fast sweepeing bends, but very useful slow tight ones because of the 'footprint' being bigger and the 'effective' downward force on the inside wheel.
A way to think about it, imagine a unicycle, you turn it and it spins on the wheel through a vertical axis and achieves no camber.. now imagine a chopper with long forks, you turn the handle bars and it creates a lot of camber, but runs none in a straight line.
It can have a negative effect in extremes, in that it can make steering harder and because some of the lateral force is taken from the struts, the suspension actually works better... this can however be seen as "dive" by some. But thankfully on a MacPherson strut it's quite difficult to go too far. Someone also explained to me that go-karts run a lot of caster, so when you sit on them and turn the steering wheel it'll go on 3 wheels as it pushes the inside one down, but that's also why they have a very heavy steering action. Obviously a car won't do this as it has suspension travel and a lot more weight! - but a good visualisation of its effect.
Does that help?
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What it also does is give dynamic camber, positive on the inside wheel and negative on the outside wheel, so it is true in a straight line and the more you turn the wheel, the more camber you get.. so not so useful in fast sweeping bends, but very useful slow tight ones because of the 'footprint' being bigger and the 'effective' downward force on the inside wheel.
....But hopefully in the case of the Mk5 GTI platform the "not so useful in fast sweeping bends" is not detrimental. I find that the Quaife ATB diff is especially effective in fast sweeping bends and don't want to lose what I've recently gained.
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Sorry, that's poor wording on my part, it won't be detrimental.
What I mean is you'll not really notice much extra benefit in long sweepers, as you won't be turning the wheel enough to generate the dynamic effect - it comes into its own in the twisties, where you need it. Coupled with that LSD of yours, it'll be ace!
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Sorry, that's poor wording on my part, it won't be detrimental.
What I mean is you'll not really notice much extra benefit in long sweepers, as you won't be turning the wheel enough to generate the dynamic effect - it comes into its own in the twisties, where you need it. Coupled with that LSD of yours, it'll be ace!
....Goodee!! :afro:
Thanks, Tony :smiley:. There's all sorts of roads in my neck of the woods - Tight twisties and long sweepers and up and down hills.
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Interesting stuff.
Where is the compromise here though, I mean to the average driver, to the ride or handling?
Why wouldn't VW have set up the suspension geometry like this in the first place?
Just curious?
:smiley:
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Interesting stuff.
Where is the compromise here though, I mean to the average driver, to the ride or handling?
Why wouldn't VW have set up the suspension geometry like this in the first place?
Just curious?
:smiley:
The compromise if you're running a lot of degree of caster is heavier steering and the nose will feel a bit like it's diving - but this kit is way off those sort of settings.
I don't know why they don't do it from scratch, but cars with adjustable caster tend to be serious kit like Porkers. Maybe VW don't deem it necessary for the average joe's motors or it's easier to set it vertical than bother doing the R&D to set it up right with caster?
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I agree.
I also guess that warning the average driver with understeer on tight bends is of course in VW's interest.
would be intesting to do a before and after on track, I wonder how the car would perform under trail braking and a little lift off mid bend. :cool:
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Interesting stuff.
Where is the compromise here though, I mean to the average driver, to the ride or handling?
Why wouldn't VW have set up the suspension geometry like this in the first place?
Just curious?
:smiley:
The compromise if you're running a lot of degree of caster is heavier steering and the nose will feel a bit like it's diving - but this kit is way off those sort of settings.
I don't know why they don't do it from scratch, but cars with adjustable caster tend to be serious kit like Porkers. Maybe VW don't deem it necessary for the average joe's motors or it's easier to set it vertical than bother doing the R&D to set it up right with caster?
....Also, I don't think that VW have the same 'performance enthusiast' attitude which we have. Just think of all the Mk5 GTI drivers you see on the road who don't acknowledge you - Their GTI is just another new car as far as they are concerned. Mind you, the average English person is incredibly reserved! I don't know the percentage but I think we are a minority and hence not such an important sector of the market as they see it.
Every little such improvement VW add would add to their costs and hence reduce their market competitiveness. I would prefer that VW were more performance orientated but look at their history - Both the GTI and R32 have been born out of non-mainstream and almost independent efforts by only a few people within VW.
:afro:
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I agree.
I also guess that warning the average driver with understeer on tight bends is of course in VW's interest.
would be intesting to do a before and after on track, I wonder how the car would perform under trail braking and a little lift off mid bend. :cool:
Deffo - boring safety understeer = no lawsuits. The GTI sells to such a broad church, they have to go straight down the middle, where as something like a hot Megane will have a much narrower market and they can go a little more foccused towards that.
Sadly I didn't do a "before" with mine and I'd never explore those type of limits on the road - but I did the Club GTI sprint day afterwards and can confirm it now has cracking 'lift off and turn in' charateristics without being too tail happy.
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True enough Robin.
I think the number of enthusiasts is growing though. Be interesting to see what happens with the Mk6 and the 'GTI plus' rumour.
Renault Megane (R26?), Focus RS etc, prove there is demand there I think?
:smiley:
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Well even the "normal" GTI is getting an electronic LSD and the adaptive suspension - so that's got to be a sign you're right!!
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I bet they have not improved the steering feel of the GTI in the Mk6, which is just average in the Mk5.
What has happened to good linear steering with lots of road feedback? VW need to employ someone (probably an Italian) to put some sparkle into their dull steering.
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update :
car booked into Awesome for Wed this week :
1. WALKit to be fitted (their first kit apparently!)
2. geometry check (they only do road or track settings)
3. basic car check
4. sort the 'flappy' engine checked out (dogbone fitted + maybe other eng mounts replaced/improved)
If all that goes OK then the way is cleared for some other 'toys' :evil:
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update :
car booked into Awesome for Wed this week :
1. WALKit to be fitted (their first kit apparently!)
2. geometry check (they only do road or track settings)
3. basic car check
4. sort the 'flappy' engine checked out (dogbone fitted + maybe other eng mounts replaced/improved)
If all that goes OK then the way is cleared for some other 'toys' :evil:
I expect a full and detailed write up by Thursday afternoon at the latest then. :cool:
There is no stopping you once you get started is the. :laugh:
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....
As some of you already know, VWR have been setting up their demo car with suspension for me to drive and consider for my car. As part of that, we intend to fit the Whiteline Antilift Kit.
Something which I think is quite very important came up today in our discussion - As the Antilift kit on the rear of the wishbone has good quality polybushes integrated, it would be a very sensible idea to replace the OEM bushes on the front of the wishbone with good quality PTFE bushes to match the bush 'performance'.
Makes good sense, methinks :cool:
HTH
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HMmm interesting.
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mmmmmm too late :grin:
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mmmmmm too late :grin:
I was just going to mention you. :grin:
Tell us tell us come on (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/Daft%20stuff/sonno2.gif)
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well , tbh I havent done enough miles to give a full report as yet.
But so far the indications are great , straight ahead position no difference , but on turn feels more positive.
But as ever the 'placebo' effect of a new mod cant be underestimated :grin:
will report more after a few miles.
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mmmmmm too late :grin:
....But, if you agree it makes good sense, it's not too late to additionally replace the stock bushes.
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well , tbh I havent done enough miles to give a full report as yet.
But so far the indications are great , straight ahead position no difference , but on turn feels more positive.
But as ever the 'placebo' effect of a new mod cant be underestimated :grin:
will report more after a few miles.
....Does the steering feel heavier or any different, john_o ? :smiley:
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....Does the steering feel heavier or any different, john_o ? :smiley:
nope just the same imho
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....
As some of you already know, VWR have been setting up their demo car with suspension for me to drive and consider for my car. As part of that, we intend to fit the Whiteline Antilift Kit.
Something which I think is quite very important came up today in our discussion - As the Antilift kit on the rear of the wishbone has good quality polybushes integrated, it would be a very sensible idea to replace the OEM bushes on the front of the wishbone with good quality PTFE bushes to match the bush 'performance'.
Makes good sense, methinks :cool:
HTH
Red were would one get these uprated bushes for the front of the wishbone. :smiley:
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Red were would one get these uprated bushes for the front of the wishbone. :smiley:
....I should have anticipated that question! The VWR guys are away racing until 5th November now, so that's the earliest I can speak with them again to find out. I know that they offer a whole set of PTFE bushes but only as part of a customer's project (if that makes sense) - Meaning that, as far as I know, you can't order a small part from them like you can from Awesome etc. They aren't a typical retail supplier.
Awesome may know where to source this aftermarket part. I'm not trying to sound elitist when I say that VWR seem to have quite a few parts made exclusively for them and primarily for their race cars.
But I'll do my best to find out for you.
:afro:
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Ok Cheers RR :smiley: