GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Hurdy on 02 August 2008, 00:15
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Well chaps,
JBS have scoured the land, high and low, over fields and oceans and come up with...
Nada
Zip
Nil
Zero
F All
Zero
Nothing
No-one at all at this moment in time has a Clutchpack or uprated plates to fit the DSG box. I'm absolutely distraught :cry:. P!ssed off doesn't even come close.
I'd thought I was onto a winner with the HGP upgrade, but appears to have evapourated into the ether and even the Volkswagen racing pack isn't openly available at the moment. Credit to JBS, they have done a lot of legwork as they wanted to do the work.
If anyone out there knows of a definite upgrade...please let me know.
I'm stuck with a car that should be getting over 340bhp and 13 second 1/4 miles that is now stuck at 300bhp and 300lbft (I suppose it could be worse!!)
There is no point in RR's, 1/4's, LSD upgrade etc as I know its limits and can't stretch them like I wanted to. The car performs fine at the level it is stuck at - no clutch slip, but it just isn't the same as it was when I first had the upgrade :sad: :sad: :sad:
I feel a little like Vtec.......don't really want much to do with the car at the moment and feel like it is slightly tarnished in some way. I even went out in it earlier to have a good blast, but even that left me a little hollow inside. :cry:
To try and cheer myself up a bit, it is booked in (finally) for the Eibach coilovers fitting and so hopefully I'll get something from that instead.
looking through a few catalogues now at new cars to brighten myself up a little :rolleyes:
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Cheer up Hurdy you have come along way getting your car where it is at the mo mate!
I've been impressed with your motor from day one when you just got it.
I'm sure with time bud the mods and parts will start to flood the market and hey rather you be the pioneer of different thinking than the usual bought quick car non?
I remeber my triptronic needed a flash and no one could sort the kick up and kick down becuase it hadn't been done before to take the mods, but got there in the end when Audi started to remapp stuff REVO back then were scratching there heads just another mild stone keep the faith mate! :cool:
Jay
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The coilovers will help put the power down, less weight transfer when you launch :evil:
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Cheer up Hurdy, you've got an awesome car and have done loads to it. I'm sure we all go through that flat phase when it just doesn't do anything for you.
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Could always replace with a good 'ol manual gear box :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Only joking of course hurdy! Hope you get it sorted soon mate. But to be honest your car goes like stink anyway... is the dsg really hindering performance that much?? You seem to get down as much power as the front wheels can handle anyway, a blessing in disguise i would say :smiley:
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Mate, your face will live with me forever when they told you it was the DSG, I heard the cash tills ringing from there :laugh: At least the car is MORE than liveable with until a solution arises! Keep the faith :wink:
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I feel your pain mate... :cry:
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hmm, I thought HPA in Germany was working on updated clutches for their R32 turbo.
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I'm stuck with a car that should be getting over 340bhp and 13 second 1/4 miles that is now stuck at 300bhp and 300lbft (I suppose it could be worse!!)
....It could be a lot worse! What's the standard version of your car? 230 bhp? - You've done very well to take it this far to date. Patience and be grateful for what you've got rather than what you haven't. Upgraded clutches will become available in due course.
So, you reckon upgrading the suspension to coilovers may help a bit. What about the Quaife? - It definitely should help traction a wee bit.
Think Positive.
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hmm, I thought HPA in Germany was working on updated clutches for their R32 turbo.
HGP and HPA have been working in conjunction to produce a clutchpack - but it still isn't out yet :sad:
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I'm stuck with a car that should be getting over 340bhp and 13 second 1/4 miles that is now stuck at 300bhp and 300lbft (I suppose it could be worse!!)
....It could be a lot worse! What's the standard version of your car? 230 bhp? - You've done very well to take it this far to date. Patience and be grateful for what you've got rather than what you haven't. Upgraded clutches will become available in due course.
So, you reckon upgrading the suspension to coilovers may help a bit. What about the Quaife? - It definitely should help traction a wee bit.
I've had the Eibach's since March, but have had to wait for another part to come first.
A Quaife would undoubtably increase grip and improve handling, although I'd rather only have to crack open the DSG once. :wink:
Think Positive.
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A Quaife would undoubtably increase grip and improve handling, although I'd rather only have to crack open the DSG once. :wink:
....Good point. If/when you seriously want the Quaife, PM me - Don't order one before first talking to me.
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A Quaife would undoubtably increase grip and improve handling, although I'd rather only have to crack open the DSG once. :wink:
....Good point. If/when you seriously want the Quaife, PM me - Don't order one before first talking to me.
Nuff said :cool:
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....In an effort to cheer you up, Hurdy : -
(http://uk.gizmodo.com/carbon_fiber_hat.jpg)
Real, not imitation! :evil: and not cheap.
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....In an effort to cheer you up, Hurdy : -
(http://uk.gizmodo.com/carbon_fiber_hat.jpg)
Real, not imitation! :evil: and not cheap.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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^^^^ :grin: I dread to think much.
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I feel a little like Vtec.......don't really want much to do with the car at the moment and feel like it is slightly tarnished in some way. I even went out in it earlier to have a good blast, but even that left me a little hollow inside. :cry:
Buy a 1.3 Skoda Felicia for a couple of hundred quid, drive around in that for a bit and then go back to your Golf. I'm going to love mine when it's back on the road, even though it won't be to the spec i want it by any means!
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In a conversation I had while discussing turbo options for mine, it was mentioned (although i didn't take much notice since mine is manual) that the dsg can be 'remapped' to apply more pressure and reduce the 'micro-slippage' to let you throw more torque into the 'box.
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I think its the waiting for one to be made and put into production.
I had a Mk2 Leon FR Tdi and was deperate to get it mapped as the stan 170 was not enough i went round every tuning Co going to see if they could do one but because of the DPF nobody was doing them as they weren't sure if the car could handle it, it drove me mad as i new there was more potential inside it, it took a while but now most tuners do them but i didn;t wait i jumped ship and bought an ED30.
So its all in the waiting, wait and finsih the car or sell and have to start again.
what the yanks they will be doing one or do they not get DSG's?
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In a conversation I had while discussing turbo options for mine, it was mentioned (although i didn't take much notice since mine is manual) that the dsg can be 'remapped' to apply more pressure and reduce the 'micro-slippage' to let you throw more torque into the 'box.
Yeah this is true, there are a couple of companies in Germany that remap the DSG oil pressure to induce a higher clamping pressure on the plates. I've been told that it would be okay to do, but would inevitably only be a short term fix for a longer term issue. This is because the slippage will eventually reappear and ultimately means you still need an upgrade clutchpack. VW racing use standard clutchpacks with upgraded software, but the software isn't generally available :sad:
So its all in the waiting, wait and finsih the car or sell and have to start again.
what the yanks they will be doing one or do they not get DSG's?
The Yanks are waiting on the HGP/HPA clutchpack upgrade, but have been waiting quite a long time so far :sad:
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In a conversation I had while discussing turbo options for mine, it was mentioned (although i didn't take much notice since mine is manual) that the dsg can be 'remapped' to apply more pressure and reduce the 'micro-slippage' to let you throw more torque into the 'box.
Yeah this is true, there are a couple of companies in Germany that remap the DSG oil pressure to induce a higher clamping pressure on the plates. I've been told that it would be okay to do, but would inevitably only be a short term fix for a longer term issue. This is because the slippage will eventually reappear and ultimately means you still need an upgrade clutchpack. VW racing use standard clutchpacks with upgraded software, but the software isn't generally available :sad:
So its all in the waiting, wait and finsih the car or sell and have to start again.
what the yanks they will be doing one or do they not get DSG's?
The Yanks are waiting on the HGP/HPA clutchpack upgrade, but have been waiting quite a long time so far :sad:
Its got to be either the yanks or the germans who can solve this for you , have you checked any of the mother land's forum's. also dont porsche use a DSG now, Last gap effort ring the Bugatti factory see if there is any bits thrown in the skip. :undecided:
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Hurdy can you explain why this has happened to yours and no one else's. You cant be the only one who has took the gear box this far
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Yeah, I need a crash course in German :grin:
Don't think I haven't thought about the Porsche compatibility angle. It was the first thing that entered my head when it was announced :evil: They are keeping tight lipped for now, but I suspect that as they own a large slice of VW that the technology and component sharing will be similar in most respects.
A Veyron gearbox may be a little overkill....even for me :laugh:
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Hurdy can you explain why this has happened to yours and no one else's. You cant be the only one who has took the gear box this far
My suspicions are that it hasn't only happened to me. Most tuners running high power upgrades tended to use manual boxes, but those with DSG tend to give their results straight after the conversions and then sell them on or reduce the power back. Awesome have knocked their car back, it is now running a K04 with 320bhp and similar torque. I thought their car would annhialate anything else at Inters with 380bhp, but it didn't. It was actually 0.3 secs slower than Vtec's car. Maybe I'm wrong, but my instincts ususally are good with these things. Similarly the R32 Turbo on Pistonheads is up for sale with only 7.5k miles on it - DSG slip maybe? Most tuning companies will not even think of saying stuff like this to anyone, let alone potential customers.
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Yeh that makes good sense how many 1/4 runs have you done
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Yeh that makes good sense how many 1/4 runs have you done
Probably something in the region of 30. I've used the launch control much more though. Again maybe this is an issue too. Using the launch control temporarily inhibits the rev limit at standstill and increses the amount of friction on the clutchplate that uses 1st, 3rd and 5th gears and hence creates the extra wear. This is why I tend to get slip in 1st, get a good change to second, bang off the rev limit in second (as 3rd cannot accept the transfer as it is slipping) and then take off like a scalded cat in 4th and across the line.
In everyday use I do not get any slip now the power is knocked back, but when I had full power the revs surge in 1st and 3rd, but seemed a lot tighter in 2nd and 4th.
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My guess is it's not down to excessive strain there would be hundreds of more case's .Why do VW now have a dry version which at the moment is only being used in the lower powered units not sure what im trying to say there the red wine is kicking in. But the cost to just replace normal DSG clutche's is ££££ they have sold thousand's there name would be mud if a year down the line all it's customer's were getting hefty bills.
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Why do VW now have a dry version which at the moment is only being used in the lower powered units?
....Lighter and cheaper IIRC. Not because of any shortcomings of our version as far as I know.
If you get a DSG problem under warranty, the normal VW dealers aren't allowed to be supplied with individual replacement DSG components - The whole lot gets replaced and VW Technical take back the box for a post mortem, I'm told.
Hurdy's mods are such that any DSG warranty issues are highly debatable.
VW Racing who work very closely with VW themselves only run about 245 bhp in their GTI race cars, but they are stripped out. The higher you push the power envelope, the less reliable the car is potentially likely to be.
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Was going to post a link to the mkv's forum.. but I am quite sure your familiar to the dsg problem thread on there hurdy(not that its really relivant to your prob). But for those of you are not..
http://uk-mkvs.net/forums/t/155170.aspx
p.s. Had to go somewhere when the site was down :undecided:
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there was a guy over on ukmkivs who uses the same tuner that i do and he had the same problem car was ok for a while then he got problems in the end they dropped the torque level and he didn't have anymore problems.
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....I had my Mechatronics Module replaced under warranty and in the early days before remapping my car.
I was asked by VW themselves to write a full report of what happened. So what I reported was that the way I got the car going again was to get out, lock the car, go for a very short walk, come back as if nothing had happened and thinking positive, unlock the car, get in and drive away - Which worked!! Someone on this forum(?) reported that he had been told by VW that if it happened to him again he should.....Lock up and go for a walk before starting over again! :grin:
I guess I've got a revised Mechatronics Module on mine. A good tuner will limit the torque on a DSG - My advice is to stay away from those who promise high numbers! It's simply not what it's all about imo.
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""Its all about Control"" :laugh:
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Hurdy.
We have a racing company down here in South Africa that has modded the living daylights out of a GTi. They are down the road from my dads offices.
Would you like to me to have a chat with them and see if they have a solution? I remember their GTi being a DSG model. Most of their cars go on the track too.
Mike
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Hurdy.
We have a racing company down here in South Africa that has modded the living daylights out of a GTi. They are down the road from my dads offices.
Would you like to me to have a chat with them and see if they have a solution? I remember their GTi being a DSG model. Most of their cars go on the track too.
Mike
That would be great Mike :smiley:
Do they have a website?
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I think they do. I must just find out cos I cant remember the name of the company but they have done Audi's, Merc etc. I remember APR somewhere in the name. But will ask my dad tonight.
Mike
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Someone on this forum(?) reported that he had been told by VW that if it happened to him again he should.....Lock up and go for a walk before starting over again! :grin
That was me :smiley: It was the VW dealer as opposed to VW who said that ..... thankfully I haven't had to try it ! The car has been fine since - but then I've only done 600 miles since it went wrong.....
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....Sorry for not remembering specifically it was you, SO8. The dealer would have been told by VW - All DSG issues are bumped up to them.
I've now done over 40,000 miles on that replaced Mechatronics Module, 28k of them remapped - I think you can rest assured that you'll be alright.
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Hello Hurdy
I spoke to every tuner I could find down here today and nobody has uprgrades for the DSG. The manual drivetrain apparently has a few upgrades but the DSG has none.
So this is where I try be intelligent.
Maybe your problems can be solved by a different grease or lubrication in the DSG box itself? Maybe a tackier grease with a higher viscosity or something will reduce slippage and wear?
Just trying to be productive here. :undecided:
Perhaps return the car to standard form. Sell it and get a manual? OR even better... Why not get a .:R32 which are going pretty cheap in manual and use the extra cash to turbo it? It would be amazing and if you dont like the zimmer frame grill then change over to a GTi grill. We have proof that .:R exhausts and GTi front end look amazing.
Just an idea.
Mike :smiley:
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Been trying my american contacts, HPA (who are based in Canada btw not .de) are working on something but no official release dates. Prices are looking to be in the region of 5k U.S dollars :shocked:
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Hurdy you have forum members over the world looking out for you :laugh:
Maybe try post up at VWVortex? Maybe they know something? (Wait... Yanks .... Knowing something? Rynt...) :wink:
Im voting with the .:R to be honest. It would be a beast.
Mike
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Perhaps return the car to standard form. Sell it and get a manual? OR even better... Why not get a .:R32 which are going pretty cheap in manual and use the extra cash to turbo it? It would be amazing and if you dont like the zimmer frame grill then change over to a GTi grill. We have proof that .:R exhausts and GTi front end look amazing.
Just an idea.
Mike :smiley:
No need to sell the car, just swap the chocolate gearbox, (Sorry :wink:) for a proper one. Seen a few on ebay recently for around £5-600. Probably get your money back selling the DSG box.
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Fairplay. But wont that be just as costly as turboing a .:R?
I dont know much about the costs oversees.
Mike
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Manual box will set you back £600 tops add another £500 for fitting and an uprated clutch. Turbo conversion on an R will run to £4,000 as a guess-timate.
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Multiply that 4k figure by 5 and you're closer to the truth :tongue:
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I heard or remember 5000.... So yeah the gearbox conversion is much cheaper. But an .:R would be so lush :evil:
Either way it is up to Hurdy. Wont the .:R handle the power better than the front wheel drive GTi?
Mike
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Multiply that 4k figure by 5 and you're closer to the truth :tongue:
Sod that then.
Wont the .:R handle the power better than the front wheel drive GTi?
The R would be more efficient putting those sort of numbers down onto the road which makes the fact VW didn't give it that power in the first place even more frustrating
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id wait for the Golf R36 which im sure WILL be released because Vw have realeased the Passat with the 3.6 in it.. They woulnt produce that engine just for one model. Id hold out for that john if your thinking about going to the Dark R side!!.
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When the MK5 started production in 04, it was announced that the 200ps GTI and the 275ps R32 would follow in 2005. But that would've made it quicker than the S3, and that's just a big nono in the VAG stable. Shame, 275 would be about right.
VW have released info to their dealers that an R32/R36 Golf will not be made available in the UK (due to the tree hugging hippies that want to save the whales), instead the top model will share the same engine as the next release of the S3, possibly slightly detuned. Sounds like an ED30 to me then..
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My money is on the next R being a 2.0 :undecided: Audi have gone that way it stands to reason VW will. I dont even think the mk 6 will get a R model. EVO getting 360 bhp out of a 2.0 aswel. Its a shame but its the age were in It could be bye-bye to the 3.2 burble :huh:
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Even BMW are rumoured to be going 4 pot turbo for the next M3 to keep the tree huggers happy.
Nick
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there is defo going to be a mk6 R32 (not r36). It will be 265ps. No doubt the s3 will be upped in power to 280ish
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there is defo going to be a mk6 R32 (not r36).
'fraid not. Whether or not they'll make use of the new 2.2 5 cyl turbo charged engine in a 4wd Golf is anyone's guess at the moment. Most likely they'll keep that for the proposed Audi 'RS3' though.
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ukmkv's (or is it now mkvi's) states that the mkvi will be released as a R32 guise in 2010. not sure how accurate that is... but thats what it says none the less. I guess its all speculation at the moment.. but i think that they should scrap the S3 sportback.. and just give all the 5dr R32's the power they deserve :cool:
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Dunno what their source is, but like I said mine was VWUK HQ, and it was just last week.
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Dunno what their source is, but like I said mine was VWUK HQ, and it was just last week.
In which case..... i think your source is probably more reliable.
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sadly :cry:
although they have been known to change their minds... and they better had because i still want that 4wd R36 scirocco!
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Oh yes!!! now that is a thought... but they should put a little hidden switch in there that helps unlock 350bhp (just to keep the audi family happy of course)
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Considering quite a few options at the moment for the ED30 :smiley:
I do still love her really and whatever I do, you lot will be the first to know anyway :cool:
I feel really great that so many peeps are trying to help - that is why I love this forum soooo much. (group hug!)
For now, I think I'll probably go for a software upgrade and see how it goes until the clutchpacks come out. :evil:
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Good lad i take it your coming out of your depression, you would be missed if you start turning Japaneze. :kiss:
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i bet he's been looking at that GTR brochure again too.. :tongue:
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i bet he's been looking at that GTR brochure again too.. :tongue:
i do know where there are 2 for sale :wink: a black one and a grey one :cool:
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i bet he's been looking at that GTR brochure again too.. :tongue:
i do know where there are 2 for sale :wink: a black one and a grey one :cool:
Haha, lol....me too
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I feel a little like Vtec.......don't really want much to do with the car at the moment and feel like it is slightly tarnished in some way. I even went out in it earlier to have a good blast, but even that left me a little hollow inside. :cry:
Buy a 1.3 Skoda Felicia for a couple of hundred quid, drive around in that for a bit and then go back to your Golf. I'm going to love mine when it's back on the road, even though it won't be to the spec i want it by any means!
This is a great suggestion.... I had a Rover 214 befor the GTi and when I feel like the GTi is a bit normal I hop into the Rover for a few miles and get back into the Golf...... Hey Presto, I am back in love!
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I can get that feeling when I want as the missis has a Fiat Punto :grin:
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Ok bumpage for TT to give me some much needed help :cool:
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Ok bumpage for TT to give me some much needed help :cool:
*still awaiting TT's reply*
:nerd:
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm if TT doesn't know then thats a bad omen :grin: :grin: :rolleyes:
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Im helping a friend here in Sweden who wants to upgrade his dsg box as he is going for a turbo upgrade on his ed30.I have found a company in Germany that have quoted me this figures for an upgrade
2250euro for upgrade that holds for 580nm
Fitting 400euro
Company is Raeder Motorsport
Drop them an mail like i did,and see if they can send the parts to england, if you cant go to germany as my friend is going to do .They dont have much info at their website but here it is
http://www.raeder-motorsport.de/
Cheers
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Am I reading that right wolf? twenty two THOUSAND euros??? :shocked:
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Am I reading that right wolf? twenty teo THOUSAND euros??? :shocked:
fitting is dead cheap though :grin:
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Sorry
its 2250euro :wink:
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:tongue: :smiley:
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Im helping a friend here in Sweden who wants to upgrade his dsg box as he is going for a turbo upgrade on his ed30.I have found a company in Germany that have quoted me this figures for an upgrade
2250euro for upgrade that holds for 580nm
Fitting 400euro
Company is Raeder Motorsport
Drop them an mail like i did,and see if they can send the parts to england, if you cant go to germany as my friend is going to do .They dont have much info at their website but here it is
http://www.raeder-motorsport.de/
Cheers
Thanks for that Wolfbane :smiley:
That works out at about £2200 plus travel expenses (£3k ish) and is about what I was considering spending. I wonder if they would do the Quaife too :undecided: :cool:
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another bump in the hope T_T might reply one day :tongue:
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another bump in the hope T_T might reply one day :tongue:
....Send him a PM?
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OK, OK - it's just appeared on my radar :tongue:
I'll re-read the thread, and post my proper reply! :wink:
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Why do VW now have a dry version which at the moment is only being used in the lower powered units?
....Lighter and cheaper IIRC. Not because of any shortcomings of our version as far as I know.
Yup, and its also slightly shorter too, handy for smaller cars like the Polo.
If you get a DSG problem under warranty, the normal VW dealers aren't allowed to be supplied with individual replacement DSG components - The whole lot gets replaced and VW Technical take back the box for a post mortem, I'm told.
Not quite true. Whilst the stealers wont open up the boxes to replace gear cogs, synchro rings, selecter forks and the like, they are able to replace the clutch packs, and also the mechatronics units and oil coolers.
Hurdy's mods are such that any DSG warranty issues are highly debatable.
True, but warranty or not, these beasts still need repairing, irrespective of who has to pick up the tab. There will be a good number of DSG cars well out of warranty period, which will inevitably need replacement clutches, in the same way that a normal dry clutch needs replacing - so parts will be available through all the standard channels.
VW Racing who work very closely with VW themselves only run about 245 bhp in their GTI race cars, but they are stripped out. The higher you push the power envelope, the less reliable the car is potentially likely to be.
Absolutley agree (but to be really pedantic, Volkswagen Racing are a wholly owned subsidiary of Volkswagen AG - so effectively the same company :tongue:).
Importantly, though, VW Racing also mandate a DSG oil change after every second race meeting, so you'd be lucky if the box goes 500 miles between a fresh brew of Pentosin's finest.
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....I had my Mechatronics Module replaced under warranty and in the early days before remapping my car.
I was asked by VW themselves to write a full report of what happened. So what I reported was that the way I got the car going again was to get out, lock the car, go for a very short walk, come back as if nothing had happened and thinking positive, unlock the car, get in and drive away - Which worked!! Someone on this forum(?) reported that he had been told by VW that if it happened to him again he should.....Lock up and go for a walk before starting over again! :grin:
Yeah, but that is specifically for when the DSG box refuses to play, and all the gear ratio lights are highlighted (or flash, can't remember which :embarassed:) - and basically wont engage any gears.
I guess I've got a revised Mechatronics Module on mine. A good tuner will limit the torque on a DSG - My advice is to stay away from those who promise high numbers! It's simply not what it's all about imo.
Yup - anyone fancy another <cough> Bluefin or CustomCode <cough> bout? :evil: Maybe not! :grin:
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Maybe your problems can be solved by a different grease or lubrication in the DSG box itself? Maybe a tackier grease with a higher viscosity or something will reduce slippage and wear?
Eww, nooooo. A higher viscosity oil will INCREASE clutch slippage! Not quite what Hurdy needs right now! :tongue: :grin:
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Wont the .:R handle the power better than the front wheel drive GTi?
No, because the clutch still has to transmit the torque from the engine to the gearbox.
Actually, four wheel drive cars can actually put more strain on transmissions and clutches, due to the greater traction and lack of wheelspin. It is fairly common for RS4s to toast their clutches! :cry:
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hurdy would you still have had these problems in a manual??? :huh:
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My money is on the next R being a 2.0 :undecided: Audi have gone that way it stands to reason VW will. I dont even think the mk 6 will get a R model. Its a shame but its the age were in It could be bye-bye to the 3.2 burble :huh:
Yup, the VR6 will be resigned to the history books. Narrow angle V, W and H engines all suffer from cooling issues (which is why the R32 needs additional rads, and doesn't have front fogs, and the Veyron has sommat like sixteen rads :shocked:), and also suffer from poor economy and emissions.
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FYI- You still owe us proper pics of the RS4 and not just close ups of its grills :evil:
Mike
P.S- Re the viscosity thing... I was just trying to be intelligent. IF you are planning on coming to South Africa soon you may be interested in this company that does seminars etc:
http://www.oilwiselubrication.co.za/
Some very interesting things to learn.
Mike
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm if TT doesn't know then thats a bad omen :grin: :grin: :rolleyes:
I'm about to exorcise the devil! :evil:
Now why have I got three sixes on my screensaver! :shocked:
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hurdy would you still have had these problems in a manual??? :huh:
If you mean clutch slip, then yes. However, uprated clutches for manual boxes are more freely available.
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FYI- You still owe us proper pics of the RS4 and not just close ups of its grills :evil:
I thought I did - arn't they here: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=56988
???
EDIT: looking through that thread again, I noticed how high the rear end looks. It must have settled down by about 2 inches at the rear - or am I now on the cusp of the dreaded DRC failure? :undecided:
P.S- Re the viscosity thing... I was just trying to be intelligent. IF you are planning on coming to South Africa soon
Are you offering? Digs and free use of a GTI ??? :grin: :grin:
Seriously, I'd love to go to South Africa, but SWMBO really aint keen on the idea. She sees too much of the "bad stuff" on telly (mainly the violence and stuff about the townships), and I have a hard time convincing her that there are good parts of RSA too. If I did come, it would include a trip to www.ThunderCity.com, for a flight in the EE Lightning - and I would sell my left kidney for that!
you may be interested in this company that does seminars etc:
http://www.oilwiselubrication.co.za/
Some very interesting things to learn.
Good link, thanks.
I particularly like:
"$240 billion or six to seven percent of the United States’ gross national product is lost due to downtime and repairs to manufacturing equipment damaged by poor lubrication"
. . . and the fcuking Yanks try to tell the rest of the world that they make the best lubricants! :rolleyes:
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If you do ever come down we would probably offer a place to stay and of course you and my dad would get on extremely well. He is in the oil industry and that seminar business is his newest addition to his company.
I hate to break it to you but ThunderCity closed down about 2 years ago. We were of the last few to visit.
Tell SWMBO that South Africa is nothing like the news desicribes. Its still very classy and amazing.
Mike
**Sorry for major thread hijack**
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If you do ever come down we would probably offer a place to stay and of course you and my dad would get on extremely well. He is in the oil industry and that seminar business is his newest addition to his company.
Cool, thanks! :wink: :smiley:
I hate to break it to you but ThunderCity closed down about 2 years ago. We were of the last few to visit.
Your'e joking!!!!!!! Their web site is still live! What happened to them? :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Tell SWMBO that South Africa is nothing like the news desicribes. Its still very classy and amazing.
I keep on trying - one day I'll grind her down into submission! :wink: :grin:
**Sorry for major thread hijack**
No worries, situation normal on this forum! :grin: I don't mind, but Hurdy hasn't accepted yet! :grin: :laugh: :grin: :laugh:
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They closed down due to a loss in revenue I assume. They had to pay for the planes and those huge hangers. I blame it on their marketing. There is another company now but its odd that they use the same website?
My dad says at one stage they even battled to pay him for the lubricants etc that he was supplying them.
**Sorry Hurdy**
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Righty, here goes.
Veyron gearbox - is a no-no, because apart from the obvious :wink: it uses very different technology. Our Golf gearboxes were designed by BorgWarner, whereas the Veyron uses a Ricardo developed box. So unless you are extremely good with a hacksaw, hammer, and a pair of stilsons, I'd keep well away from the Bugatti parts department! :grin:
Porsche - the PDK is alleged to be using the dry-plate single clutch version - so another non-starter.
Hurdy, just to refresh my grey matter, you were getting clutch slip from a standing start? Were you also getting clutch slip throuought the rev range, and through all gears? And how many miles has the car done (in total from new, and roughly how many for the remap etc)?
Picking up on a couple of points in previous posts, the oil pressure does not apply the clamping force for the clutch. It is a good old fashioned coil spring which provides the clamping force, and will suffer from the inherent weaknesses of "spring steel" - heat being a particular problem (open front fog grille thread? :wink:). Basically, excess heat in spring steel will reduce its "spring ability", leading to reduced effectiveness, and therefore weakness of the spring. Regarding the oil pressure, this basically controls lubrication (obviously :rolleyes:), but also controls the release of the clutch - so if there is a need for an increase in oil pressure, then that would imply that they need to overcome stonger clutch clamping springs - so uprated springs would appear to be one answer. :nerd:
OK, so onto the nitty-gritty (and being as Hurdy is still offline, I'll just have to go on what I can remember where Hurdys probs).
Hurdy, being as you are already experiencing quite severe clutch slip, then your clutch packs, along with the oil need to be replaced ASAP. When clutches (wet or dry) slip, the friction lining can "burn". In wet clutches, this will then contaminate the oil, and if the heat is great enough, the oil will actually start to break down, and turn to solid carbon (which is related to how the Yanks caused the problems in the 1.8 20vT, by using their shyte mineral oil in a "turbo" :rolleyes:). Not good. Also, when mulitplate wet clutches (like motorbike and DSG ones :wink:) are "abused" in any way, the friction plates have a tendancy to literally shed chunks of friction lining, which will end up floating around in the oil, before getting trapped in the filter (if it actually does make it that far). Whilst I'm not intentionally implying that you "abuse" your clutch, Hurdy, your useage is very extreme, with all your 1/4 mile sprints, and even more launch control useage. Unless you go down the strip as though you were "driving Miss Daisy"? :tongue: :grin:
So, with a new clutch and oil required - even the standard OEM clutch with fresh DSG oil and filter should be a big help, and will probably cure your problems. Though for how long - who knows? Being as the DSG box must be drained of oil and removed from the car to the workbench to change the clutch, it would surely be a good time to fit the Quaiffe. OK, you need to open up the physical casings to gain access to the diff, but this major open surgery would be a one-time-only, fit and forget exercise, because the Quaiffe itself (just like the standard diff) is completely maintenance-free. Fitting the Quaiffe at this time should have an effect on the clutch durability. OK, just like with the standard diff, the clutch will be taking the same amount of torque, however, the Quaiffe will have a smoothing effect on the clutch, with less "grip-slip-grip-slip" reaction "stresses" from the roadwheels. This should provide a more "linear" stress on the clutch, rather than the "peaks and troughs" stresses which will occur with a conventional open diff.
If/when any uprated clutch packs are developed, then just replacing the clutch pack would be less work, with no need to expose the internals of the gearbox.
Also, advice on maintenance. The standard maintenance for the DSG box is an oil and filter change every 4 years or 40k miles. Not (yet :wink:) knowing how many miles you have done, but guessing by the much shortened life of your clutch, I would seriously recommend changing the DSG oil and filter every year or 10k miles. Sadly, that seems to be the price you might have to pay for putting such extreme amounts of torque through the DSG box.
As a final avenue to explore for independent advice, have you ever tried a company called "inde-tech" - www.Inde-Tech.co.uk. They really are masters of the Audi "multitronic" CVT gearbox, and might just know about, or have contacts for the DSG.
HTH
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They closed down due to a loss in revenue I assume. They had to pay for the planes and those huge hangers. I blame it on their marketing. There is another company now but its odd that they use the same website?
My dad says at one stage they even battled to pay him for the lubricants etc that he was supplying them.
**Sorry Hurdy**
So, are the jets still being flown by this new company, or have they been sold off for scrap or sommat?
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At one stage they were sold off but there is new team called Cheetah something or other and they use the newer more cost effective planes. I remember prices being a lot lower. But thunder City no longer runs the company. Same speed though :evil:
_______________________________________________________________________
With regards to the DSG. I just had an idea. We have a friend. He is Russian and is an inventer of class and has built and created some extremely high quality products for my dad to help him in his industry.
Perhaps I should give him a call and ask him... Could be a project he might be interested in?
Hurdy can we possibly get all your cars info? mileage and what mods, power and torque she pushes?
TT can do with it as he likes and I can see what my inventor friend can suggest?
Does anyone have any links or anything to articles and diagrams of the DSG gerabox and its clutch packs etc etc so I can show him?
Thanks all
Mike
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Being as the DSG box must be drained of oil and removed from the car to the workbench to change the clutch, it would surely be a good time to fit the Quaiffe. OK, you need to open up the physical casings to gain access to the diff, but this major open surgery would be a one-time-only, fit and forget exercise, because the Quaiffe itself (just like the standard diff) is completely maintenance-free. Fitting the Quaiffe at this time should have an effect on the clutch durability. OK, just like with the standard diff, the clutch will be taking the same amount of torque, however, the Quaiffe will have a smoothing effect on the clutch, with less "grip-slip-grip-slip" reaction "stresses" from the roadwheels. This should provide a more "linear" stress on the clutch, rather than the "peaks and troughs" stresses which will occur with a conventional open diff.
....Without giving me as much detail as you have just posted T_T, this is more or less exactly what VW Racing have told me. The Quaife diff has many benefits for DSG and although relatively expensive it's a valuable mod which is easily overlooked. I shall be reporting after my session with VWR and will post as much info as I can, particularly as I am getting an improved Quaife diff version exclusive to VWR.
Also, advice on maintenance. The standard maintenance for the DSG box is an oil and filter change every 4 years or 40k miles. Not (yet :wink:) knowing how many miles you have done, but guessing by the much shortened life of your clutch, I would seriously recommend changing the DSG oil and filter every year or 10k miles. Sadly, that seems to be the price you might have to pay for putting such extreme amounts of torque through the DSG box.
....I've had my 40k miles DSG Service and I'll be listening to VWR's advice on future DSG oil change frequency. I already change my engine oil every 10k and plugs every 20k miles.
Hurdy, you've pushed the envelope and I'm not for a second suggesting you shouldn't have done, but your case is an excellent example of the sort of issues that have to be dealt with when you do. Personally I would question the wisdom of those who 'encouraged' you (Custom Code?), but that's just my personal opinion. Would you push the envelope so far again?
HTH
....There's always helpful content in your posts, even on the odd occasion that info doesn't match someone else's or a difference of opinion etc.
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At one stage they were sold off but there is new team called Cheetah something or other and they use the newer more cost effective planes. I remember prices being a lot lower. But thunder City no longer runs the company. Same speed though :evil:
Phew, so I can stop crying into my frosties! :laugh:
EDIT: just re-read your post - so have they still got the Lightnings?
With regards to the DSG. I just had an idea. We have a friend. He is Russian and is an inventer of class and has built and created some extremely high quality products for my dad to help him in his industry.
Perhaps I should give him a call and ask him... Could be a project he might be interested in?
Hurdy can we possibly get all your cars info? mileage and what mods, power and torque she pushes?
TT can do with it as he likes and I can see what my inventor friend can suggest?
Does anyone have any links or anything to articles and diagrams of the DSG gerabox and its clutch packs etc etc so I can show him?
Pikturz of the Quaiffe install - http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/ - you gotta sort the wheat from the chaff, though! :rolleyes:
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RR, at what mileage did you have your remap?
And did you get chance to examine the condition of the old oil and filter from the DSG? Did the fresh oil make any difference to the quality of the shift changes? And finally, can you remember how much you were charged for the DSG service?
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Hi TT,
Thanks for the info and your thoughts on the clutchpack. :cool:
A few answers for you TT
Yes, I am getting clutch slip from the off, but only on hard starts, if I set of normally or even on three quarters throttle then there is no clutch slip. 1st, 3rd and to a lesser extent 5th all get clutch slip under full accelleration. It doesn't last for long, but is long enough to fook up any chances of good 1/4 mile times.
Also the transfer from 1st to second is pants under full load. The engine hits full revs and then bounces off it as it can't engage 2nd cleanly (doesn't do this in other gear shifts as much, if at all)
I've covered nearly 11k miles from new. and the car has been remapped from around 2k.
Power has been dropped back to just over 300bhp and 300lbft and at this level the gearbox is behaving itself even on hard starts.
I think I'll go for the service and ask to see what the oil is like that is already in the 'box.
If the oil looks okay then would it be safe to say that the problem may not actually lie with the clutchpack?
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Thanks TT.
And what exactly needs to be upgraded? And how much torque etc must it handle and power must it be able to handle? Im dumb with engines. What exactly must I tell him to do?
**Edit. Hurdy just gave that info. Will find out**
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TT... Is this the inside of a DSG Gearbox? :shocked:
http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/?action=view¤t=IMG_0561.jpg
Mike
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Hi TT,
Thanks for the info and your thoughts on the clutchpack. :cool:
Your welcome. :smiley:
A few answers for you TT
Yes, I am getting clutch slip from the off, but only on hard starts, if I set of normally or even on three quarters throttle then there is no clutch slip. 1st, 3rd and to a lesser extent 5th all get clutch slip under full accelleration. It doesn't last for long, but is long enough to fook up any chances of good 1/4 mile times.
OK. So, as you indicated earlier in the thread, you suspect just the outer "set" of the clutch pack is troublesome, which rightly concurrs with the "odd" numbered gear ratios, and initial thoughts would seem to back up this. However, thinking more (and I don't doubt you, it's more just trying to ponder some other questions) - there is quite a difference in diameter between the outer and inner clutches. The larger the diameter, the more torque it can handle. So, you state you get slip in ALL odd gears - 1st, 3rd and 5th ??? Righty, if you try to follow my "engineering" logic - 2nd gear has a greater torque multiplication factor than 3rd and 5th - yet 2nd (and presumably 4th and 6th) are not slipping ?? If that IS the case, then whilst the inner "even" clutch is perfectly OK, I would strongly suggest that the outer "odd" clutch is fcuked.
OK, it may only be slipping under very high loads - but it is those very "high load slips" which really do the greatest damage. If you think about a manual car - you slip the clutch every time you move from stationary in 1st or reverse. That is normal operation, and clutches of those kinds of "treatment" can reasonably expected to achieve well over 100k miles before needing changing. However, take the other extreme - a "drving school" type of car, or even those muppets on those "think you are a good driver" type of TV programme, where you see smoke belching from the clutch when someone tries (attrociously) to parallel park on a steep hill - those kinds of occurances can totally bu&&er a clutch extremely rapidly - the TV shows are extreme, but some learner driver cars can need new clutches after 5 or 10k miles.
Now, I'm certainly not trying to call into question your driving, but you are putting your clutch through some very extreme and harsh punishment, and because of this, I would concurr that your clutch (the odd one) is indeed knackered. Now, it may continue to work under "light duty" for a while, however, I really wouldn't risk leaving it without changing it. It may just completely give up one day - the plates may actually break, and they could then cause considerably more damage to the bell housing, or even the dual-mass flywheel.
Also the transfer from 1st to second is pants under full load. The engine hits full revs and then bounces off it as it can't engage 2nd cleanly (doesn't do this in other gear shifts as much, if at all)
Do you mean it's actually "holding on" to the rev limiter, and delaying the change? Or is it trying to change, but can't, and the result is the engine momentarily running away with itself?
Does it also do it if, say, you only use half throttle (you'd have to be in manual mode), and wait for the box to reach the red-line to change from 1st to 2nd?
I'm wondering if your oil is actually contaminated in some way. In terms of time, the change from 1st to 2nd (accelerating from standstill to redline, and therefore the next gear ratio) is going to be the shortest (maybe around a second), when compared to the time it takes for the box to go from 5th to 6th (still accelerating, and taking the time immediately from when 4th goes 5th, and then accelerates to the red line for 6th - six seconds, maybe?). Because of the extremely short duration, maybe the oil is slightly clogged, and not releasing the outer clutch quickly enough?? That may be the cause of bouncing on the revlimiter at 1st to 2nd. :undecided: It probably doesn't affect the higher gears, because maybe the oil has had a longer period of time to "flush" the clutch release actuation cylinder. Or maybe you have a "lazy" solenoid in the mechatronics module. :undecided:
I've covered nearly 11k miles from new. and the car has been remapped from around 2k.
OK, so every 10k for a DSG oil and filter change would seem good "insurance". Maybe 10k is still too long, maybe 5k ? :undecided:
Power has been dropped back to just over 300bhp and 300lbft and at this level the gearbox is behaving itself even on hard starts.
What was the max power and torque you've had going through it? Did you increase the power in "steps" or stages, or did you go from the standard map of 230PS, straight up to the max? If you evolved it through stages, can you remember at what stage/bhp it started to play up?
I think I'll go for the service and ask to see what the oil is like that is already in the 'box.
If the oil looks okay then would it be safe to say that the problem may not actually lie with the clutchpack?
Hmm, your call - but I would personally recommend changing the clutch as a matter of urgency.
If you don't change the clutch, weather the oil is "clean" or not (maybe the filter is very efficient and "overengineered"), once clutches have started to slip, they will give up the will to live much sooner.
Going back to an old skool manual, with a cable operated clutch, once they start to slip, you may adjust the cable to take into account the different "bite point", but they rapidly go down hill, and you reach the end of the adjustment on the cable very quickly. Just before I met my wife, she bought a Ford Capri, and her "so called" friend of the family "mechanic" knew the clutch was slipping, tried to adjust it, and fcuked the flywheel - Richard, you are incompetant waste of oxygen! :angry:
There may be other reasons which toasted the clutch, but weather there are other reasons or not, IMVHO the clutch does need changing. :smiley:
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TT... Is this the inside of a DSG Gearbox? :shocked:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/IMG_0561.jpg)
Link changed with "img" tags to display pic! :tongue:
Yup! :smug:
The large bit in the bottom right is the final drive assembly, and the Quaiffe is hidden below the tapered roller bearing. The big chunky "castleated" teeth are used by the transmission lock, when the shift lever is in "P".
Sitting on the bench, slightly out of focus in the top right is the clutch pack.
Any more detail you wanna know?
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Cheers again TT :cool:
I'll price up the price of changing the clutchpack pronto and also a Quaife at the same time (rude not to :wink:)
I'll keep everyone posted :smiley:
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(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/IMG_0541.jpg)
That is the final drive, with the original "open" diff. The "open" doesn't mean that the cage is open, but rather the torque flow through the diff is open, or free to take whichever output path from the diff.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/IMG_0557.jpg)
This is the same final drive, but with the Quaiffe bolted to it. :nerd:
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(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/IMG_0572.jpg)
The clutchpack, showing the inner and outer clutches.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb316/TheMadDutchman/IMG_0532.jpg)
And the top cover for the "even" inner clutch. Another cover fits over that one, and works on the outer clutch.
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Cheers again TT :cool:
I'll price up the price of changing the clutchpack pronto and also a Quaife at the same time (rude not to :wink:)
I'll keep everyone posted :smiley:
OK.
Some part numbers to help:
02E 305 051 C - oil filter element
G 052 182 A2 - DSG gear oil (1 litre)
N 910 845 01 - metal seal, drain plug
If you only do an oil change, then it takes 5.5 litres, however a complete stripdown and rebuild needs 7.2 litres.
Furthermore, if a non-VAG workshop does the work, they will need:
VAS 6262 - tool, oil filler DSG
Though independent who has changed the DSG ought to have this. VAG-COM will also be needed, for checking the oil level, and carrying out a reset of the mechatronics values.
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TT iv'e been away for a couple of days and im trying to catch back up on thread's. You are making my brain bleed from the eye's and ear's :drool: Yes i know it's not your fault my brain cant cope but that does'nt stop it bleeding. :nerd:
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TT iv'e been away for a couple of days and im trying to catch back up on thread's. You are making my brain bleed from the eye's and ear's :drool: Yes i know it's not your fault my brain cant cope but that does'nt stop it bleeding. :nerd:
Alcohol helps mate :wink:....
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OK you hold his head and i'll pour vodka :laugh:
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OK you hold his head and i'll pour vodka :laugh:
I'll have a double, with a twist of lime, thanks! :smiley:
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There is some seriously complicated crap happening in those dsg pictures.. something is bound to go wrong :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
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RR, at what mileage did you have your remap?
And did you get chance to examine the condition of the old oil and filter from the DSG? Did the fresh oil make any difference to the quality of the shift changes? And finally, can you remember how much you were charged for the DSG service?
....Remap Revo Stage1 at 23k miles, now done 51k miles. Mechatronics Module was replaced at about 6k miles.
....Seemed a little smoother but too difficult to realistically tell (placebo effect) and there wasn't a shift change problem previously.
....DSG Service cost me 'nothing' (I had full Maintenance Plan which included it).
....I personally didn't see the old filter nor old oil but was told it was fine.
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This thread is soo interesting, I'm lovin it!
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I too have the full maintenance plan. but somehow I can't see them stumping up for a 40k DSG service at 11k miles :lipsrsealed: :sad:
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RR, at what mileage did you have your remap?
And did you get chance to examine the condition of the old oil and filter from the DSG? Did the fresh oil make any difference to the quality of the shift changes? And finally, can you remember how much you were charged for the DSG service?
....Remap Revo Stage1 at 23k miles, now done 51k miles. Mechatronics Module was replaced at about 6k miles.
....Seemed a little smoother but too difficult to realistically tell (placebo effect) and there wasn't a shift change problem previously.
....DSG Service cost me 'nothing' (I had full Maintenance Plan which included it).
....I personally didn't see the old filter nor old oil but was told it was fine.
OK, thanks for the update. :smiley:
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Thanks for those pics. My dad was like...wow when he saw them. Stunning gearboxes.
I will give my mate a call today and see what he can come up with.
Mike
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Thanks for those pics. My dad was like...wow when he saw them.
But they are virtually identical to a conventional manual gearbox. The only difference in the DSG is that it basically uses a double-shaft for the gearbox internals, and a dual clutch! All the internal "cog" selections are identical to a manual, but they electro-hydro-mechanically controlled from the mechatronics module, along with the clutch.
Stunning gearboxes.
Yup - agreed! :nerd:
I will give my mate a call today and see what he can come up with.
Any updates? :smiley:
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Hurdy, any updates form your end yet? :smiley:
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Found it - an interesting official technical document for the BTCC Leon race car, which uses a bog-standard DSG box, but uses specific SEAT Sport ECU, and a limited slip diff.
Linky: http://www.northernsouth.com/SCC/regs/2007_Technical_Manual_New_Leon_Final_published_lowres.pdf
Page 37 onwards for the DSG specific info. I can't remember if I mentioned this, but the interval for the DSG oil change is every three race meetings, or 1000km, which is just 600 miles! :shocked:
Maybe Hurdy needs to budget for a DSG oil change for every other tankful of petrol! :evil:
EDIT: sh!t, that is now a dead link! Is it possible to upload PDFs onto the forum server, because that really is a very useful and detailed manual? Specifically, it includes detailed info on how to change the oil in the DSG! :nerd:
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Found it - an interesting official technical document for the BTCC Leon race car, which uses a bog-standard DSG box, but uses specific SEAT Sport ECU, and a limited slip diff.
Linky: http://www.northernsouth.com/SCC/regs/2007_Technical_Manual_New_Leon_Final_published_lowres.pdf
EDIT: sh!t, that is now a dead link! Is it possible to upload PDFs onto the forum server, because that really is a very useful and detailed manual? Specifically, it includes detailed info on how to change the oil in the DSG! :nerd:
....Pity about the dead link - Sounds like very interesting and useful info.
The more I learn about the Quaife ATB diff, the more I think it is a very valuable mod on a FWD car such as the GTI/Ed30. It would deffo help Hurdy imo.
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EDIT: sh!t, that is now a dead link! Is it possible to upload PDFs onto the forum server, because that really is a very useful and detailed manual? Specifically, it includes detailed info on how to change the oil in the DSG! :nerd:
T_T if you have the pdf document and could email it to me I have somewhere to host it if that helps. :smiley:
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Hurdy, any updates form your end yet? :smiley:
Not really although RedRobin's done some good enquiries for me with VW racing. I'm just in a holding pattern at the moment to see what the outcome may be. :smiley:
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Hurdy, any updates form your end yet? :smiley:
Not really although RedRobin's done some good enquiries for me with VW racing. I'm just in a holding pattern at the moment to see what the outcome may be. :smiley:
....As our phone chat, I'll get back to you asap - Should be next week and I'm up there the following week. :smiley:
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Hello
Calling my inventor friend now. lol
:laugh: