GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Teutonic_Tamer on 24 August 2009, 14:11
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OK, it is time for some serious big brakes on the GTI. Front and rears. And fairly urgently too! :embarassed:
FRONTS:
For the fronts, I've pondered for a while over the usual 'fayre' available, and was originally gonna go for the R32/S3 setup - but have really gone off them - for the simple fact that they are heavy b'stards'.
I've ruled out the Taroxes (sorry Hurdy, but they just don't do it for me). I've also rulled out the AP racing ones (due to an issue over durability). And I also rulled out the VWR ones (for being very 'grabby' and not easily controllable - need to think about SWMBO, too).
So that leaves me with either Brembo GT with two-piece discs, or Alcon with two-piece discs. I'm strongly swaying towards the Alcon - good British engineering (so good, Audi now use them on the mighty RS6 with the ceramic discs rather than their usual Brembo). But a crucual 'sticking point' is that they must be able to fit under the standard 18" Monzas. OK, if they need a little spacer to clear, then that is fine - but no more than that.
So are there any updates from current Alcon users? And were is the best place to get them from? And what about getting brake pads for them - are they a 'standard' profile which any decent aftermarket performance shop should get, or will I have to go back to Alcon or their supplier?
Or does anyone have any experience with the Brembo GT setup - becasue their six-pot monobloc caliper is increadibly light, and that would really work well, in terms of reducing un-sprung masses. But what is their durability like? 'Cause Brembo, just like anything from Italy, can suffer quite bad with corrosion - my Brembo six-pots on my RS4 were starting to get in quite a bad way! :sick: Not a big issue, it just means I'll have to keep on top of them, by stripping them down more often.
REARS:
The rears must also get some 'attention'. I think the best option here would be to stick with OEM R32/S3 rears, with the 310x22 vented discs, and larger diameter piston in the caliper. But again, another sticking point - if I go for the Alcons, then they are just silver painted. I don't really want different colours front to rear, and I REALLY don't like the ghey powder-pink red paint that is on there at the mo.
Sooooo, does anyone know if any other PQ35 platform car had 310x22 at the rears, but with just a plain anodised silver caliper, rather than the blue R32 or black S3 affairs, and preferably with the 41mm dia piston, rather than the GTIs standard 38mm dia.
Orrrrrrrrr - are there any alternatives for the rear which I should check out.
Many thanks chaps, and chapesses - form an orderly queue to help out the TT for once! :kiss: :grin:
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I would be shocked if any commonly available Alcon callipers used an exotic pad shape. Most should be available in the usual compounds and hence from a whole host of suppliers
Fancy getting the paint out for the OEM rear callipers? :)
Out of interest (and sorry if this was covered somewhere i missed in my search) what are the durability issues with the AP kits?
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I would be shocked if any commonly available Alcon callipers used an exotic pad shape. Most should be available in the usual compounds and hence from a whole host of suppliers
OK, thanks for that. Aftermarket modding aint really my scene, which is why I generally prefer to keep things OEM - but Alcons and Brembos are way better than anything out of the VW parts bin - hence my 'n00b' comment! :embarassed:
Fancy getting the paint out for the OEM rear callipers? :)
What, painting them red again . . . :embarassed:
Out of interest (and sorry if this was covered somewhere i missed in my search) what are the durability issues with the AP kits?
AP calipers are known to crack around the bleed nipple. Not an issue for big race teams who just fit a fresh caliper on a couple of times a season - but for a private owner . . . :cry:
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Surprised the TAROX's don't do it for you Sean :huh: especially at the prices I've been able to help a few peep out with them :wink:
TAROX can also do the rear discs, but unsure if they do 310mm. :undecided:
Looks like your slippery slope is getting longer :evil:
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I am not one for modding, yet, though I keep hearing about this slope :huh:
Did spend some time working at a company that specialised in hi-performance brakes though, but will admit a bias towards AP Racing hence my interest in your comment
In my time there the only cracks around the bleed nipples i saw where when they had been over tightened or just seized over time and been bodged off. Ironically it was normally race teams that broke/over tightened them, but then they do need to use them a whole lot more that you would expect/hope to on a road car.
Shows what little you get to find out when you just sell stuff though I guess :(
Worth thinking about the pads though, as there is a wide range of options out there over and above what comes with the kit (Ferodo DS2500 with the AP that one i know, is it pagid with Alcon? no idea for Brembo)
For the rear, I guess the best thing is to hope for is an OEM disc replacements that matches your front kit (groove / drill pattern), what ever you choose to go for, and swap the pads with something that complements the . Though you will have a little less choice for the rears and that doesnt fix the pink issue
Sorry I dont know more about the specific kits you are looking at :(
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Thanks for the replies.
One other option which I forgot to mention was the MovIt stuff from Germany - they do ceramics as an upgrade - and I'd be like a dog with two dicks. Anyone know of decent MovIt suppliers in the UK?
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Ceramic brakes on a GTI :shocked:
I did see and hold some at Autosport international at the NEC this year. They looked superb and would definitely shed more weight off the unsprung mass. Unfortunately I'm having a "senior" moment and can't remember the name of the supplier :embarassed:
They were smaller than stock, but with more stopping power.
Don't ceramic brakes tend to have a more ON/OFF feeling over stock steel brakes?
You could always swap over the RS4 brakes :drool:
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Upgrading the front brakes is probably my next mod, as I find the OEM brakes on the GTI quite prone to fade.
I know you said you didn't want the AP Racing setup but thought I would add that the bloke who lives opposite my in-laws works for AP racing and used to run the AP 4 pot system on his MK5 Golf. For what it's worth, he told me not to bother with the 6 pot setup as the incremental performance versus the 4 pot setup is not noticeable unless you do LOTS of track work. The AP setup should fit under the standard GTI wheels so long as you have the 18"'s. You can download the technical drawings from the AP site and print them out real-size on a plotter to check them against the car. Also the AP's are available in red, should you want to keep the car looking relatively stock. I wasn't aware of the cracking issue on these though............
As an aside, don't Brembo own AP Racing now?
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Ceramic brakes on a GTI :shocked:
Now that would definately win the 'willy waving contest'! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I did see and hold some at Autosport international at the NEC this year. They looked superb and would definitely shed more weight off the unsprung mass. Unfortunately I'm having a "senior" moment and can't remember the name of the supplier :embarassed:
They were smaller than stock, but with more stopping power.
Maybe they were the MovIt ones - www.MovIt.de - because as far as I know, there is only one other company in Germany who actually manufacture carbon/ceramic discs - www.SGLcarbon.com - who make the oem ones for Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, etc. And as for brake pads, only Pagid, another German company, are the only ones (that I am aware of) who make ceramic composite pads (for either carbon/ceramic discs, or conventional iron discs) - so it would make sense for another German company to complete the 'set'. :cool:
Don't ceramic brakes tend to have a more ON/OFF feeling over stock steel brakes?
Nope, that is just pure carbon discs - which are only used on race cars. For road car use, the carbon particles are mixed with silica (I think) - and this makes them not only increadibly hard wearing, but also extremely progressive too. And they don't need any warming up either. From stone cold, to repeated high speed a-bahn blasts - they are increadibly consistent. And that can be a little un-nerving, especially if you are 'anticipating' brake fade after giving them some serious punishment.
You could always swap over the RS4 brakes :drool:
Lol - yes, I have thought - but the Mrs wants to keep her Monzas! :lipsrsealed:
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As an aside, don't Brembo own AP Racing now?
Yup, but the two companies work completely separately - with AP being primarily responsible for motorsport specific products, whereas Brembo still specialise in all flavours of road cars, along with a truely dedicated 'aftermarket' upgrade programme, the latter of which is not officially in APs remit.
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You could always swap over the RS4 brakes :drool:
Lol - yes, I have thought - but the Mrs wants to keep her Monzas! :lipsrsealed:
Swap the alloys as well :wink:
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You could always swap over the RS4 brakes :drool:
Lol - yes, I have thought - but the Mrs wants to keep her Monzas! :lipsrsealed:
Swap the alloys as well :wink:
Then I'd also need the front and rear wings from the RS too - the alloys have an ET of 29! :tongue:
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FWIW, I had Alcon/Prodrives on my Scooby. VERY impressive. Haven't felt the need to put them on my Golf as I'm running stock at present.
Another vote for Alcon :smiley:
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FWIW, I had Alcon/Prodrives on my Scooby. VERY impressive. Haven't felt the need to put them on my Golf as I'm running stock at present.
Another vote for Alcon :smiley:
Thanks :afro: - so is your GTI remaped or standard?
And where to get Alcons from? :undecided:
And does anyone have experience of the MovIt stuff? I'm teetering between the Alcon or the MovIt ceramics - don't mind being a 'mule' for the first GTI with ceramics, but I do need to get some general MovIt feedback beforehand. :undecided:
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As my mum would say "if you didnt drive so fast you wouldnt need bigger/better brakes" :laugh:
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As my mum would say "if you didnt drive so fast you wouldnt need bigger/better brakes" :laugh:
Tell her she can walk the next time then! :grin:
Can't believe no one has any info on the MovIts though - serious German quality . . . . :undecided:
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My GTI is standard - the Alcons were part of the Prodrive kit for the Subaru.
:smiley:
FWIW, I had Alcon/Prodrives on my Scooby. VERY impressive. Haven't felt the need to put them on my Golf as I'm running stock at present.
Another vote for Alcon :smiley:
Thanks :afro: - so is your GTI remaped or standard?
And where to get Alcons from? :undecided:
And does anyone have experience of the MovIt stuff? I'm teetering between the Alcon or the MovIt ceramics - don't mind being a 'mule' for the first GTI with ceramics, but I do need to get some general MovIt feedback beforehand. :undecided:
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OK, thanks Dano :smiley:
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I'll vouch for the alcons too, i had them on my integrale, they were superb, expensive but well worth it.
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Sooooo, does anyone know if any other PQ35 platform car had 310x22 at the rears, but with just a plain anodised silver caliper, rather than the blue R32 or black S3 affairs, and preferably with the 41mm dia piston, rather than the GTIs standard 38mm dia.
Doesnt the 3.2 A3 have the same setup as the S3 but the calipers are unpainted?
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As an aside, don't Brembo own AP Racing now?
Yup, but the two companies work completely separately - with AP being primarily responsible for motorsport specific products, whereas Brembo still specialise in all flavours of road cars, along with a truely dedicated 'aftermarket' upgrade programme, the latter of which is not officially in APs remit.
....That's right [Wow! T_T and I agreeing about a corporate subject - Must be a first! :afro:]. Brembo saw the sense in allowing AP Racing to keep their long established (remember Lockheed?) pedigree brand in the world of motorsport and high performance applications.
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Upgrading the front brakes is probably my next mod, as I find the OEM brakes on the GTI quite prone to fade.
I know you said you didn't want the AP Racing setup but thought I would add that the bloke who lives opposite my in-laws works for AP racing and used to run the AP 4 pot system on his MK5 Golf. For what it's worth, he told me not to bother with the 6 pot setup as the incremental performance versus the 4 pot setup is not noticeable unless you do LOTS of track work. The AP setup should fit under the standard GTI wheels so long as you have the 18"'s. You can download the technical drawings from the AP site and print them out real-size on a plotter to check them against the car. Also the AP's are available in red, should you want to keep the car looking relatively stock. I wasn't aware of the cracking issue on these though............
^^^^ Exactly what AP's Senior Race Engineer, Pete Collen, advised me - That 4-pots and fronts only were absolutely fine for fast road use and that the Golf did about 85% of its braking on the front. I found them awesome on The Ring though my rear end did get twitchy a few times!
:afro:
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AP calipers are known to crack around the bleed nipple. Not an issue for big race teams who just fit a fresh caliper on a couple of times a season - but for a private owner . . . :cry:
....I'm not for a moment saying you're wrong - Only that, so far, touch wood, I've had no problems with my nipples (on my AP calipers!) after about 45k miles and now on my second set of both AP discs and DS2500 pads.
Ta for the tip off - I'll have that checked next time I'm at VWR.
Re VWR's brakes - apart from being very expensive, they do snatch but have totally gobsmacking stopping power! VWR are apparently working on a cheaper and more road friendly version.
:afro:
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AP calipers are known to crack around the bleed nipple. Not an issue for big race teams who just fit a fresh caliper on a couple of times a season - but for a private owner . . . :cry:
....I'm not for a moment saying you're wrong - Only that, so far, touch wood, I've had no problems with my nipples (on my AP calipers!) after about 45k miles and now on my second set of both AP discs and DS2500 pads.
Ta for the tip off - I'll have my nipples checked by one of the girls next time I'm at VWR.
Re VWR's brakes - apart from being very expensive, they do snatch but have totally gobsmacking stopping power! VWR are apparently working on a cheaper and more road friendly version.
:afro:
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Are there any potentially adverse affects on the rest of the 'stock' OEM brake system if you uprate the front discs an calipers?
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Are there any potentially adverse affects on the rest of the 'stock' OEM brake system if you uprate the front discs an calipers?
....No (if I've understood your question correctly) - The sensors etc will continue to smartly react to whatever is going on. However, some big brake kits such as AP's no longer activate the car's pad wear system. But visual pad inspection is more reliable anyway.
If you mix and match brake components - Such as simply changing to better aftermarket pads and ss hoses and fluid etc - The feel of the brakes will improve but improvements will be limited by the oem disc [So I am led to understand].
VAG factory cars are well known for their relatively soft brake pedal feel. The pedal response from a good aftermarket brake kit adds to your confidence in that extra stopping power. Unless I'm being closely chased into a roundabout by a much higher performance car driven by someone who knows what they are doing (in which case I make sure to let him pass at the first safe opportunity), I find that my brakes allow me to apply them late so I'm slow into the corner and then the Quaife helps my traction to power out......Et voila, they are very small in my rear view mirror and they don't tailgate me again!
BUT! Remember that your only points of contact with the road surface are 4 patches each only the size of a CD, so in other words your tyres are critical!
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Mods/Ferodo_DS2500.jpg)
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Sooooo, does anyone know if any other PQ35 platform car had 310x22 at the rears, but with just a plain anodised silver caliper, rather than the blue R32 or black S3 affairs, and preferably with the 41mm dia piston, rather than the GTIs standard 38mm dia.
Doesnt the 3.2 A3 have the same setup as the S3 but the calipers are unpainted?
Thanks, but I've gone off the OEM 345mm S3/R32/A3q route - they are just too heavy. Reducing unsprung mass plays a massive advantage to general handling too - which is why I'm seriously considering ceramics. :wink:
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Upgrading the front brakes is probably my next mod, as I find the OEM brakes on the GTI quite prone to fade.
I know you said you didn't want the AP Racing setup but thought I would add that the bloke who lives opposite my in-laws works for AP racing and used to run the AP 4 pot system on his MK5 Golf. For what it's worth, he told me not to bother with the 6 pot setup as the incremental performance versus the 4 pot setup is not noticeable unless you do LOTS of track work. The AP setup should fit under the standard GTI wheels so long as you have the 18"'s. You can download the technical drawings from the AP site and print them out real-size on a plotter to check them against the car. Also the AP's are available in red, should you want to keep the car looking relatively stock. I wasn't aware of the cracking issue on these though............
^^^^ Exactly what AP's Senior Race Engineer, Pete Collen, advised me - That 4-pots and fronts only were absolutely fine for fast road use and that the Golf did about 85% of its braking on the front. I found them awesome on The Ring though my rear end did get twitchy a few times!
:afro:
That is a fundamental example of incorrect brake bias, because the rear brakes on the Golf need to work MUCH more than the '15%' - and this is borne out by the way the rear suspension is set up. The Golf 5, just like the Mk4, and many similar modern road cars - have a much greater rearwards bias in the brakes - and whilst the fronts may actually do most of the actual 'braking', the rears play a massive part in the stability whilst braking. Why do you think that some cars are now coming with larger REAR discs than fronts. :wink:
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AP calipers are known to crack around the bleed nipple. Not an issue for big race teams who just fit a fresh caliper on a couple of times a season - but for a private owner . . . :cry:
....I'm not for a moment saying you're wrong - Only that, so far, touch wood, I've had no problems with my nipples (on my AP calipers!) after about 45k miles and now on my second set of both AP discs and DS2500 pads.
Ta for the tip off - I'll have that checked next time I'm at VWR.
How often have you had the brake fluid changed? I just think that as an earlier poster said, it seems to be as a result of more frequent fluid changes by the race teams. But if you are into track days on a road car, and need to change the fluid regularly, then it just might become an 'issue'. :undecided:
Re VWR's brakes - apart from being very expensive, they do snatch but have totally gobsmacking stopping power! VWR are apparently working on a cheaper and more road friendly version.
:afro:
Oh yus - the VWR brakes have mighty stopping power, there is no doubt about that! :wink: Cost-wise, well that really isn't a deciding factor for me, so it wouldn't have mattered if they were £500 or £2500. The real big issue is that the SWMBO isn't very 'delicate' with the brake pedal :rolleyes: - so the brakes must have much greater progression than what VWR were offering, hence why I have to rule them out. But if you say they are developing some newer ones - are they ready yet? :undecided:
As an aside, though, I was mighty impressed by their on-track racing operations, and have to say that Sam is a really nice, top bloke. :afro:
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Are there any potentially adverse affects on the rest of the 'stock' OEM brake system if you uprate the front discs an calipers?
Yes. It can affect the front to rear bias. An this is all controled by the software 'map' within the ABS/ESP unit - although there is a tweak - but this is an un-authorised setting, so the stealers wont get involved. Sadly, virtually all the aftermarket big brake vendors seem not to get involved in this either. :rolleyes:
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Are there any potentially adverse affects on the rest of the 'stock' OEM brake system if you uprate the front discs an calipers?
....No (if I've understood your question correctly) - The sensors etc will continue to smartly react to whatever is going on.
Hmmmmm . . . that is only going to take into account the 'last case' scenario - ie, when the wheels are about to lock up, and the ABS needs to intervene. But these wont be able to take into account the difference in bias which will result from say just upgrading the fronts. :nerd:
However, some big brake kits such as AP's no longer activate the car's pad wear system. But visual pad inspection is more reliable anyway.
So how did you disable the pad wear warning? Just leave the existing wear sensor connected, but just taped to the strut? :huh:
If you mix and match brake components - Such as simply changing to better aftermarket pads and ss hoses and fluid etc - The feel of the brakes will improve but improvements will be limited by the oem disc [So I am led to understand].
Braided hoses do NOT offer any gains in braking performance, and neither do these so-called uprated brake fluids. And virtually all 5.1 fluids are not ABS/ESP compatible (not to mention will void your warranty, and may well ruin your ESP unit).
However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
VAG factory cars are well known for their relatively soft brake pedal feel. The pedal response from a good aftermarket brake kit adds to your confidence in that extra stopping power. Unless I'm being closely chased into a roundabout by a much higher performance car driven by someone who knows what they are doing (in which case I make sure to let him pass at the first safe opportunity), I find that my brakes allow me to apply them late so I'm slow into the corner and then the Quaife helps my traction to power out......Et voila, they are very small in my rear view mirror and they don't tailgate me again!
BUT! Remember that your only points of contact with the road surface are 4 patches each only the size of a CD, so in other words your tyres are critical!
Yup, brakes just stop the roadwheels from rotating. It is simply the grip between the tyre and the tarmac which stops the actual vehicle.
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However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
The two common reason to upgrade your brakes (apart from the looks) are
- Have experienced fluid fade (soft pedal)
- Want better feel
As the only things that can affect actual braking force (assuming the tyres are good enough) are the diameter of the disc, the area of the pistons (both for a mechanical advantage from the pedal) and the coefficient of friction between the disc and the pad; if you are looking to improve on feel and get a little better response, upgrading the brake pads can make a decent difference.
Of coarse the faster you stop your car, the more heat that is generated, which normally leads to fluid fade
If you are upgrading because your current brake set up cannot handle the heat of all your braking (ie track use, or maybe following the upgraded pads :)) then you need a larger lump of iron (disc) for a heat sink and/or better cooling to your brakes, and while you are at it, you slap on some bigger calipers as your old ones wont fit properly anyway ;)
It is important to note, that brake pads (especially high performance ones) want to be hot in order to work properly, so cooling your brakes doesn't make them 'better' as such, simply less prone to fluid fade, ideally they want to be kept at just the right temperature. This is also why recommended 'fast road' pads such as DS2500 are a bit of a compromise, as they have to work well enough from cold to be any use on the road where are full race pads like DS3000 sequel like a pig untill you get them warm enough.
Also upgrading the front brakes alone as you point out will always affect the bias, so it is ideal to to something with the rears, such as match up the pads
So, basically, I agree with you :) I just think that pad choice is critical to getting the 'feel' that you desire from any brake set up and now realise that I have rambled on some what :lipsrsealed:
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Thanks, but I've gone off the OEM 345mm S3/R32/A3q route - they are just too heavy. Reducing unsprung mass plays a massive advantage to general handling too - which is why I'm seriously considering ceramics. :wink:
....Music to my ears! - I've just ordered a set of lightweight OZ Alleggerita 8x18 wheels which weigh approx just over 7 kg compared with 12 kg of my Monza 18's (I don't have the exact weights to hand). It's the handling advantage of turn-in and feedback which has initially driven my choice but now I am learning from this thread discussion that the LeggyRita's open spoke design will also benefit my brakes - Yippee!
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/OZ-AlleggeritaTitanium-red.jpg)
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^^^^ Exactly what AP's Senior Race Engineer, Pete Collen, advised me - That 4-pots and fronts only were absolutely fine for fast road use and that the Golf did about 85% of its braking on the front. I found them awesome on The Ring though my rear end did get twitchy a few times!
That is a fundamental example of incorrect brake bias, because the rear brakes on the Golf need to work MUCH more than the '15%' - and this is borne out by the way the rear suspension is set up. The Golf 5, just like the Mk4, and many similar modern road cars - have a much greater rearwards bias in the brakes - and whilst the fronts may actually do most of the actual 'braking', the rears play a massive part in the stability whilst braking. Why do you think that some cars are now coming with larger REAR discs than fronts. :wink:
....Methinks I need to do something about my rear brakes.
However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
....Whilst I could simply go out and buy a pair of rear AP's I want to firstly investigate if there are any less expensive options such as just changing the rear pads to match the DS2500 fronts. I've put in a call to AP's Senior Race Engineer but he's away until later next week. I expect he'll advise the same as you, Sean, but the pads may be a short term compromise as I'm off to The Ring in a few weeks and am currently short of funds.
:afro:
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How often have you had the brake fluid changed? I just think that as an earlier poster said, it seems to be as a result of more frequent fluid changes by the race teams. But if you are into track days on a road car, and need to change the fluid regularly, then it just might become an 'issue'. :undecided:
....Fluid changed from stock > AP when brake kit fitted > VWR when working on suspension (accidently punctured a hose) - All over a period of 4 years exactly.
Re VWR's brakes - apart from being very expensive, they do snatch but have totally gobsmacking stopping power! VWR are apparently working on a cheaper and more road friendly version.
Oh yus - the VWR brakes have mighty stopping power, there is no doubt about that! :wink: Cost-wise, well that really isn't a deciding factor for me, so it wouldn't have mattered if they were £500 or £2500. The real big issue is that the SWMBO isn't very 'delicate' with the brake pedal :rolleyes: - so the brakes must have much greater progression than what VWR were offering, hence why I have to rule them out. But if you say they are developing some newer ones - are they ready yet? :undecided:
As an aside, though, I was mighty impressed by their on-track racing operations, and have to say that Sam is a really nice, top bloke. :afro:
....I'm speaking to VWR later today (all being well) and also plan to be up there next week, so I'll ask how that is developing.
I'm sure that if you wanted to ask Sam anything he'd be very helpful but I know he's away until later next week.
:afro:
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/OZ-AlleggeritaTitanium-red.jpg)
:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
The two common reason to upgrade your brakes (apart from the looks) are
- Have experienced fluid fade (soft pedal)
- Want better feel
As the only things that can affect actual braking force (assuming the tyres are good enough) are the diameter of the disc, the area of the pistons (both for a mechanical advantage from the pedal) and the coefficient of friction between the disc and the pad; if you are looking to improve on feel and get a little better response, upgrading the brake pads can make a decent difference.
Of coarse the faster you stop your car, the more heat that is generated, which normally leads to fluid fade
If you are upgrading because your current brake set up cannot handle the heat of all your braking (ie track use, or maybe following the upgraded pads :)) then you need a larger lump of iron (disc) for a heat sink and/or better cooling to your brakes, and while you are at it, you slap on some bigger calipers as your old ones wont fit properly anyway ;)
It is important to note, that brake pads (especially high performance ones) want to be hot in order to work properly, so cooling your brakes doesn't make them 'better' as such, simply less prone to fluid fade, ideally they want to be kept at just the right temperature. This is also why recommended 'fast road' pads such as DS2500 are a bit of a compromise, as they have to work well enough from cold to be any use on the road where are full race pads like DS3000 sequel like a pig untill you get them warm enough.
Also upgrading the front brakes alone as you point out will always affect the bias, so it is ideal to to something with the rears, such as match up the pads
So, basically, I agree with you :) I just think that pad choice is critical to getting the 'feel' that you desire from any brake set up and now realise that I have rambled on some what :lipsrsealed:
Whilst I was fully aware of the above, it will be a great help to other forum readers. :smiley:
So 'rambling' is good! :afro:
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Thanks, but I've gone off the OEM 345mm S3/R32/A3q route - they are just too heavy. Reducing unsprung mass plays a massive advantage to general handling too - which is why I'm seriously considering ceramics. :wink:
....Music to my ears! - I've just ordered a set of lightweight OZ Alleggerita 8x18 wheels which weigh approx just over 7 kg compared with 12 kg of my Monza 18's (I don't have the exact weights to hand). It's the handling advantage of turn-in and feedback which has initially driven my choice but now I am learning from this thread discussion that the LeggyRita's open spoke design will also benefit my brakes - Yippee!
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/OZ-AlleggeritaTitanium-red.jpg)
Sexy wheels Red, but I'd recommend ordering a 'spare' too. When you make alloys that light, there has to be compromises to get the weight that low - and if you happen to hit a pot hole at a particularly unlucky angle (or speed :lipsrsealed:), then they have a tendancey to fold like origami. The original Audi RS4 (or was it 6) was plagued with this problem.
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^^^^ Exactly what AP's Senior Race Engineer, Pete Collen, advised me - That 4-pots and fronts only were absolutely fine for fast road use and that the Golf did about 85% of its braking on the front. I found them awesome on The Ring though my rear end did get twitchy a few times!
That is a fundamental example of incorrect brake bias, because the rear brakes on the Golf need to work MUCH more than the '15%' - and this is borne out by the way the rear suspension is set up. The Golf 5, just like the Mk4, and many similar modern road cars - have a much greater rearwards bias in the brakes - and whilst the fronts may actually do most of the actual 'braking', the rears play a massive part in the stability whilst braking. Why do you think that some cars are now coming with larger REAR discs than fronts. :wink:
....Methinks I need to do something about my rear brakes.
I can't agree any stronger! :wink: :smiley:
However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
....Whilst I could simply go out and buy a pair of rear AP's I want to firstly investigate if there are any less expensive options such as just changing the rear pads to match the DS2500 fronts. I've put in a call to AP's Senior Race Engineer but he's away until later next week. I expect he'll advise the same as you, Sean, but the pads may be a short term compromise as I'm off to The Ring in a few weeks and am currently short of funds.
:afro:
But just upgrading the rear pads on your set-up still wont provide the necessary bias improvement.
I honestly think that you need to be looking at the whole rear R32/S3 schebang - because not only does that set-up come with larger diameter discs, it also has larger diameter pistons in the calipers - and it is the piston diameter which will provide the greatest result in 'evening' the bias.
The rear end was something I spoke to Sam @ VWR with, at fairly great depth - but this is where a road car application and a full on race car differ the most. Most race cars feature dinky little rears (for weight reduction), but use a manual bias adjuster in the cockpit - oh, and they completely do away with the ABS/ESP, which is a vital and fundament component of our road cars.
So I hope you understand why I 'earnestly' try and advise that race car 'products' can often be completely unsuitable for road cars. In the past, this has always seemed to appear as though I was just having a 'dig' at the likes of VWR/AP racing and JKM (though JKM arn't into racing in the same way that AP and VWR are) - when I was just genuinely trying to offer a more 'road car' biased opinion. :smiley:
Hope this all gives some genuine and helpful 'food for thought'. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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Yes it was the original RS4 that had the problem. I think Audi ended up replacing a great many wheels under warranty or maybe they even did a recall on it? It was a long while ago now......
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How often have you had the brake fluid changed? I just think that as an earlier poster said, it seems to be as a result of more frequent fluid changes by the race teams. But if you are into track days on a road car, and need to change the fluid regularly, then it just might become an 'issue'. :undecided:
....Fluid changed from stock > AP when brake kit fitted > VWR when working on suspension (accidently punctured a hose) - All over a period of 4 years exactly.
:undecided: :undecided: That really doesn't seem very often - so if I work that out correctly - twice in four years?
Again, now you are a green hell addict (how things change, heh! :wink:) - you really need to be changing the fluid at least every year, maybe every 6 months if you do more than two such track days public toll-road visits! :evil: And as discussed previously, I would earnestly recommend going back to the genuine OEM fluid, which really is excellent - and is actually better than the vast majority of these 'aftermarket' 5.1 fluids - not to mention, being 100% suitable for ESP systems. I know you have been running 5.1 for a long time, and as yet (I hope I havn't just tempted fate) havn't had any issues or probs with the ESP. However, it is a very well known issue that the wrong fluid in ESP systems can ruin their tiny little innards - and an ESP system will be a very expensive 'dealer-only' replacement.
Re VWR's brakes - apart from being very expensive, they do snatch but have totally gobsmacking stopping power! VWR are apparently working on a cheaper and more road friendly version.
Oh yus - the VWR brakes have mighty stopping power, there is no doubt about that! :wink: Cost-wise, well that really isn't a deciding factor for me, so it wouldn't have mattered if they were £500 or £2500. The real big issue is that the SWMBO isn't very 'delicate' with the brake pedal :rolleyes: - so the brakes must have much greater progression than what VWR were offering, hence why I have to rule them out. But if you say they are developing some newer ones - are they ready yet? :undecided:
As an aside, though, I was mighty impressed by their on-track racing operations, and have to say that Sam is a really nice, top bloke. :afro:
....I'm speaking to VWR later today (all being well) and also plan to be up there next week, so I'll ask how that is developing.
I'm sure that if you wanted to ask Sam anything he'd be very helpful but I know he's away until later next week.
:afro:
OK, thanks Red. Keep us updated. BTW, did Sam discuss with you my meeting with him at Snetterton?! PM me if you prefer.
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Yes it was the original RS4 that had the problem.
OK, thanks for clarifying. :afro:
So that really is quite a valid 'reference' - because the original RS4 can't be much different in weight to a Mk5 GTI - and will therefore be putting similar forces on the rims. :undecided:
Red, do those wheels have 'official' road use? Or are they supposedly just a 'motorsport' product? :undecided:
I think Audi ended up replacing a great many wheels under warranty or maybe they even did a recall on it? It was a long while ago now......
Yeah, there was a two 'method' approach. They ether replaced the original 'soft' alloys when they were damaged for upto five years. Or they offered a 'one time only' replacement of a harder, heavier wheel.
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....
Sean, you asked me about VWR's next stage of brakes development - I spoke with them this afternoon and the kit is expected to be available in about a month and to cost in the region of £1,500 in comparison to the £2,500 for their other kit.
HTH :afro:
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Sexy wheels Red, but I'd recommend ordering a 'spare' too. When you make alloys that light, there has to be compromises to get the weight that low - and if you happen to hit a pot hole at a particularly unlucky angle (or speed :lipsrsealed:), then they have a tendancey to fold like origami. The original Audi RS4 (or was it 6) was plagued with this problem.
....OZ assure me that the Alleggerita's are designed as a 'Fast Road' wheel suitable for track days rather than a motorsport-only wheel. They are well aware of such 'folding' problems because one of their wheel designs suffered from it a few years ago. They aren't the prettiest wheels you can buy but my choice is based primarily on handling and feedback. The Team Dynamics 1.2 perform similarly and are half the price of the LeggyRita's but look much more motorsport and utility.
There is a bit more meat to the Alleggerita's than their sexy marketing pic shows : -
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/OZ_whiteS3.jpg)
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However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
....Whilst I could simply go out and buy a pair of rear AP's I want to firstly investigate if there are any less expensive options such as just changing the rear pads to match the DS2500 fronts. I've put in a call to AP's Senior Race Engineer but he's away until later next week. I expect he'll advise the same as you, Sean, but the pads may be a short term compromise as I'm off to The Ring in a few weeks and am currently short of funds.
But just upgrading the rear pads on your set-up still wont provide the necessary bias improvement.
I honestly think that you need to be looking at the whole rear R32/S3 schebang - because not only does that set-up come with larger diameter discs, it also has larger diameter pistons in the calipers - and it is the piston diameter which will provide the greatest result in 'evening' the bias.
....I've now spoken to my man at AP and he advises me that, in the context of my style of driving at places such as on The Ring (I'm not slow but I don't go through a set of tyres!), I need only put some DS2500 pads on the stock rear discs. His concern was how even rear oem pads could easily overheat in track use and without it being fully realised. He also advised that on the Mk5 GTI plain discs were fine and any grooves were mainly on a disc either to keep the pads clean or because some people like their appearance.
I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.
VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!
:afro:
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the new vwr brakes will be on mine soon :tongue: :drool:
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the new vwr brakes will be on mine soon :tongue: :drool:
....The new new VWR brakes? The ones only very recently developed?
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However, uprated pads on the standard disc can offer some valuble increases in performance, though with pads alone, the gains wont be large.
But for the biggest improvements in braking, then larger discs, or even standard sized discs, but with improved cooling, such as better integral vanes or drilling, along with uprated calipers - are really what is needed.
....Whilst I could simply go out and buy a pair of rear AP's I want to firstly investigate if there are any less expensive options such as just changing the rear pads to match the DS2500 fronts. I've put in a call to AP's Senior Race Engineer but he's away until later next week. I expect he'll advise the same as you, Sean, but the pads may be a short term compromise as I'm off to The Ring in a few weeks and am currently short of funds.
But just upgrading the rear pads on your set-up still wont provide the necessary bias improvement.
I honestly think that you need to be looking at the whole rear R32/S3 schebang - because not only does that set-up come with larger diameter discs, it also has larger diameter pistons in the calipers - and it is the piston diameter which will provide the greatest result in 'evening' the bias.
....I've now spoken to my man at AP and he advises me that,
But he is simply looking at it from a RACING, ie motorsports point of view. As I have repeatedly said in the past, race car brakes are set up very different to road car brakes!
in the context of my style of driving at places such as on The Ring (I'm not slow but I don't go through a set of tyres!), I need only put some DS2500 pads on the stock rear discs. His concern was how even rear oem pads could easily overheat in track use and without it being fully realised.
Erm - then that is a blatant admission of just how much 'load' the rear brakes are under. A road cars rear brakes play a MASSIVE part - not only in stopping the car, but also in terms of vehicle dynamics.
He also advised that on the Mk5 GTI plain discs were fine and any grooves were mainly on a disc either to keep the pads clean or because some people like their appearance.
I fully agree with the comment on the grooves, but strongly disagree with the 'plain discs' comment. On a remaped GTI, and even more so with big front brakes, the rears really cry out for ventilated discs. You just need to monitor pad wear rates on cars with standard brakes, to see how agressive the Mk5 is on its rear anchors!
I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.
If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.
VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking
But that will only really work when you are in a dead straight line, on a flat and level road. The moment you apply some steering input, or get lateral forces due to leaning road surfaces, or even noticeable side winds - then there is a high probablility that the back end will brake away much sooner, and with much less warning - those traits are fine on the race track, but highly undesireable on the public road.
but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!
:afro:
Very wise! :wink: :afro:
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But he is simply looking at it from a RACING, ie motorsports point of view. As I have repeatedly said in the past, race car brakes are set up very different to road car brakes!
....No, sorry but he's not. The AP kit I'm using has been specifically developed for "Performance Road" (fast road) use as opposed to their "Competition" (racing) offerings. Plus he knows me personally and my car and my non-race driving activities - I haven't just bought a product off a retailer.
If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.
....Oh dear! Rear DS2500's have just arrived yesterday in the post. Please send me a get well soon card to the local Nurburgring hospital.
I'm going to try them out. Wish me luck!
:afro:
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But he is simply looking at it from a RACING, ie motorsports point of view. As I have repeatedly said in the past, race car brakes are set up very different to road car brakes!
....No, sorry but he's not. The AP kit I'm using has been specifically developed for "Performance Road" (fast road) use as opposed to their "Competition" (racing) offerings.
And this is where our opinions are poles appart.
What is absolute fact - is that the sole remit of the AP Racing company, is that they are only authorised to 'develop' products for motorsport/competition purposes. They do NOT have any remit for developing products for road car applications. It is just Brembo who have the authority to develop road car products - and is something they do exceedingly well.
Secondly, the calipers you have are NO DIFFERENT to their normal 'racing' calipers - they have not been 'specifically developed just for you', nor any other 'road car' application !!!!
Finally, your claim of '''"Performance Road" (fast road) use''' applies simply to the brake PADS - and this is no different to the offerings from say Mintex or Pagid. Trying to describe either discs or calipers as 'fast road' is utterly misleading - and is not the 'norm'.
Plus he knows me personally and my car and my non-race driving activities -
And . . . . .
It still doesn't alter the fact that APs products are designed for motorsport applications. Imagine trying to put a McLaren Mercedes F1 2.4 V8 engine under the bonnet of a Golf, or any road car. You'd soon get mighty p!ssed off with its 4,000rpm tick-over speed - and having to rev the nads of it at 18,000 rpm to make the power.!!
I haven't just bought a product off a retailer.
But in all fairness, it is often the 'retailer' (especially when they are a 'specialist retailer') who has far greater knowledge of how products fair in the 'real world' use on public highways, interspersed with the occasional track day! :rolleyes:
If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.
....Oh dear! Rear DS2500's have just arrived yesterday in the post. Please send me a get well soon card to the local Nurburgring hospital.
I'm going to try them out. Wish me luck!
:afro:
Hopefully, the ESP system should still keep the car in check. :afro:
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Sorry but there is definatly a differance between ap racings road and track calipers and ap racing do develop fast road kits, that is infact Pete's job.
Big differance between OEM supply and aftermarket fast road
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Sorry but there is definatly a differance between ap racings road and track calipers and ap racing do develop fast road kits, that is infact Pete's job.
Big differance between OEM supply and aftermarket fast road
....Thanks, Mum Mumma :evil: - I read T_T Sean's post this morning but have had a very busy day and hadn't replied yet.
Sean, I think I understand what you mean by your post - That indeed there is a difference between road and race products but you believe that AP only do race products (not helped by their name nor their race reputation!). I agree with your point that what works for race doesn't necessarily work so well for road, and of course, vica-versa. If you go to AP's homepage you will see that their offerings are separated between "Competition Car Products" and "Performance Road Products" (their titles) - http://www.apracing.com/car/site.htm
Volkswagen Racing 'suffer' from the same perception - Their core products are race developed but they have also made very conscious efforts to additionally adapt or create products specifically for 'Fast Road' use. Also, I think there is an overlap - When a you press the brake pedal your car doesn't know whether it is being driven spiritedly on a road or a race circuit. OK I know you could argue about various sensors reacting to characteristics of each and therefore 'knowing', but hopefully you see my point. What's the Nordschleife? - A fast, one-way, looped, B-road (with armco and stripey kerbs, but!).
Btw, I wasn't meaning that AP produce their brakes just for me! I meant that they (Pete Collen) knows exactly what type of use the brakes AP supply me are put to.
Going back to your original post, I shall be very interested indeed to hear which brakes you decide on.
:afro:
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But APs road car products are still inferior many others who make similar aftermarket performance brakes!
Some very pertinent comments regarding APs stuff:
We’ve been a long advocate of the AP racing brake upgrades . . . . for some years,
the standard brakes are so poor that the AP upgrade has been one of the most popular for ***** owners such is the radical difference the AP brakes offer
However over time we have grown more and more unhappy with the limitations of the AP kits especially on track for both road and race cars
For road cars that go on track we have found the that AP kits do not offer complete braking security for all applications
the relative extra weight of the road car trim (even in **** form) mean that even with AP’s front and rear with high specification brake pads you will still run out of brakes before the end of even a moderate session on track,
this is typically manifested by people experiencing excess pad deposit build up or warped disks – both a sign of excess heat from the braking system
On track this is even more evident, even running on Kumho track days tyres the AP brake set up would barely last 60% race distance before eventually giving up the ghost, a point noted by other competitors in the Kumho **** Championship where our lap times would slowly rise after half race distance, purely down to brakes
With the new **** race series taking shape we suspected that the AP’s would not be able to cope with running on slicks either:
Thorough analysis of the braking system showed three things:
- Front and rear disks could be larger
- The callipers were still twin block and therefore generated flex
- The rear kit was calliper only running only a sold rear disk
- The disks were fixed with no floating arrangement
We did consult with AP over creating an upgrade . . . but eventually we worked with Alcon to develop the new ***** brake upgrade . . . . this is quite simply the highest capacity brake upgrade possible
So it is clear - that not only are APs brakes not really up to the very high performance that AP would have you believe - but also that they are either unwilling or unable to rectify their shortcommings! :rolleyes:
Now, this post is NOT meant to have a dig at anyone who uses AP brakes - and if you do use them, and are happy with them, then that is entirely your perrogative. However, I think it is only fair to advise others who may be considering big brake upgrades is that AP are NOT the bees knees, and there are much better products out there for the same money!
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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So it is clear - that not only are APs brakes not really up to the very high performance that AP would have you believe - but also that they are either unwilling or unable to rectify their shortcommings! :rolleyes:
Now, this post is NOT meant to have a dig at anyone who uses AP brakes - and if you do use them, and are happy with them, then that is entirely your perrogative. However, I think it is only fair to advise others who may be considering big brake upgrades is that AP are NOT the bees knees, and there are much better products out there for the same money!
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
....Fair enough, Sean. Indeed there may be better big brake kits out there. I can only report that I am extremely happy with mine in relation to my driving and use of my car and so are a great many other people happy with their AP's. Their design is now nearly 4 years old and I expect that others have developed their brake technology further.
However, I can only share my sincerest views, as indeed you are doing, and others will have to make their own decisions.
So, do you know which brakes you are likely to go for yet?
:afro:
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I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.
If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.
....Had a chat last night with my friend who no longer works at VWR but who did my suspension and is very experienced at setting up cars.
He suggested the same as you suggested might happen with DS2500's on the rear but said I'd be okay if I kept my ESP on. He also told me that if I kept the ESP button depressed for a minimum of 10 second it would also switch off all the ABS etc. We both agreed that I'd feel more confident with ESP left On.
VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking
But that will only really work when you are in a dead straight line, on a flat and level road. The moment you apply some steering input, or get lateral forces due to leaning road surfaces, or even noticeable side winds - then there is a high probablility that the back end will brake away much sooner, and with much less warning - those traits are fine on the race track, but highly undesireable on the public road.
....Again, my friend would agree with you (and his answers were with absolutely no knowledge of your comments). His suggested solution was to let 2 or 3 psi out of my tyres resulting in emulating softer rubber and giving more grip. Also, he felt that as my suspension was absolutely in the sweet-spot (apparently VWR have now put the same on their demo car because mine felt better), it was best left alone and, as you say, it needs to serve BOTH road and occasional track. My suspension could be further tweaked for track but it's most definitely good enough for some 62yo GIT!
I now feel able to totally justify my purchase of this gizmo : - Tyre Pressure & Temperature Monitor - Group Buy.... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7361.0)
but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!
Very wise! :wink: :afro:
....And with age, comes wisdom (so I'm told!).
:afro:
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I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.
If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.
....Had a chat last night with my friend who no longer works at VWR but who did my suspension and is very experienced at setting up cars.
He suggested the same as you suggested might happen with DS2500's on the rear
Great minds think alike! :wink:
but said I'd be okay if I kept my ESP on.
Hmmmmmm . . . . the actual ESP wont really be a great help in controlling the actual bias - the bias is controlled by the 'Electronic Brakeforce Distribution' (EBD), which is still a component of the ESP/ABS system. But the EBD (and ABS) is map controlled, and just like an engine will gain no advantage from using BP 102 on a standard engine map. Which is why I keep going on about improving the rear brakes with bigger discs & caliper pistons when fronts are improved. But the ESP should certainly help to keep you away from the kitty litter or hedges.
But the most important issue regarding the ESP - is simply that the Golf Mk5 doesn't actually need it. The Golf 5 chassis is beautifully balanced, and categorically does NOT need any assistance in the handling balance - with the standard brakes. If you can give 100% concentration to your driving, without any other distractions (screaming kids, nagging SWMBOs, or totty spotting :embarassed:) - then in all honesty, the ESP should be turned off.
He also told me that if I kept the ESP button depressed for a minimum of 10 second it would also switch off all the ABS etc.
Nope. Only the 'stability' and 'traction' releated components of the ESP can be turned off. That means the ESP, and the undocumented CBC (Cornering Brake Control), along with ASR and EDL. But any of the actual 'braking' functions definately can NOT be turned off - so you can't turn off the ABS, EBD or BA. This is the case on all cars, even those with three-stage ESPs such as Audi RS cars, and multi-stage ESPs such as on some high-end sports cars like Lambos and Fezzers. :nerd:
So someone has been telling porkies! :wink:
We both agreed that I'd feel more confident with ESP left On.
ETTO and all that, but the Mk5 GTI, on decent tyres does not need the ESP.
VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking
But that will only really work when you are in a dead straight line, on a flat and level road. The moment you apply some steering input, or get lateral forces due to leaning road surfaces, or even noticeable side winds - then there is a high probablility that the back end will brake away much sooner, and with much less warning - those traits are fine on the race track, but highly undesireable on the public road.
....Again, my friend would agree with you (and his answers were with absolutely no knowledge of your comments).
Great minds, part deux! :grin:
His suggested solution was to let 2 or 3 psi out of my tyres resulting in emulating softer rubber and giving more grip.
Hmmmmmmm . . . . that may be acceptable on a closed race track, but on a public highway, even on a one way toll road :wink: - really shouldn' be recommeded. Lowering the tyre pressure, then hammering round at high speeds, and using the brakes heavily will start to create huge build-up of heat in the tyres - and this is a sure-fire recipe for premature blow-outs. Thruxton race circuit is a very valid demonstrator of this. :wink:
This kind of advice really is only appropriate for proper racing tyres, where you need the 'flex' in the solid tread area to heat up the rubber to get grip. But on decent road tyres, the steel belting in the tread plies will prevent the tread area flexing, and will simply make the sidewall flex more, especially the area of the sidewall where it meets the tread area. And lowering front tyre pressures will also make the front end LESS stable, and will 'squirm' around under braking.
Leave that advice for real racing cars, using real racing tyres. :wink:
Also, he felt that as my suspension was absolutely in the sweet-spot (apparently VWR have now put the same on their demo car because mine felt better), it was best left alone and, as you say, it needs to serve BOTH road and occasional track. My suspension could be further tweaked for track but it's most definitely good enough for some 62yo GIT!
I totally agree. I think your suspension is set up really sweet, from the little demo you gave me at JKM earlier this year, and is obviously a daily driver. But if you have adjustable damping (I don't know the full detail of the functions of your set-up), then increasing compression damping, especially the high speed compression damping (if they have a separate high and low speed adjustment), would really benefit on track days.
I now feel able to totally justify my purchase of this gizmo : - Tyre Pressure & Temperature Monitor - Group Buy.... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7361.0)
Hmmmmm . . . . whilst that is an excellent piece of kit, I reckon it will only serv as a worrying alarm when used on a track - because if you are giving it 10 10ths on a race track, you will be quite alarmed at how the tyre pressures rise.
And the best bit of kit is the simple PCL pencil type tyre pressure guage, along with the good ole Mk1 eyeball.
but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!
Very wise! :wink: :afro:
....And with age, comes wisdom (so I'm told!).
:afro:
Did yours get lost in the post? :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :kiss:
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So, do you know which brakes you are likely to go for yet?
:afro:
Well not yet! :rolleyes: But I think I am gonna have to rule out the MovIts. There are 'issues' with their reliability, and also some slight issues with the person who sells them.
So me being a cantankerous old ba$tard at times, with a potentially dodgy product, and a 'difficult' seller - probably won't make for a happy outcome. :embarassed:
But if anyone is interested in the prices (+VAT) for Movits, here goes:
- front: 342x34 two-part ceramic disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper - £4,900.00 - gulp!
- front: 342x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper - £1,950.00
- front: 342x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 6-pot monobloc caliper - £2,700.00
- front: 370x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 6-pot monobloc caliper - £3,300.00
- rear: 322x28 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper and separate handbrake caliper - £1,900.00
- rear: 342x28 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper and separate handbrake caliper - £1,900.00
Standard caliper colours are black, red, or yellow. Can't remember if custom colours were available or not! :embarassed:
And from what I could gather, their 4-pot calipers are made by Brembo - but I couldn't really get an answer on the 6-pots (or maybe I just missed it! :undecided:)
So food for thought at anyone else considering them. :smiley:
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So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.
Sh!t a brick.
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So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.
Sh!t a brick.
....You'll probably sh!t a brick from the stopping power too!
Oh, and you've forgotten the extra cost for the G-suit, or do you get one free? And your gym membership and personal trainer.
:evil:
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So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.
It makes the factory fitted Audi ceramics, with mooohasive 380x38 discs, and specialist 6-pot Brembos on my RS4 an absolute bargain at £3604.26 (+vat). :cool: :cool: :cool: :smug: :smug: :smug:
Sh!t a brick.
Erm, I've been doing enough of that recently! :sick: :embarassed: :grin:
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Come on Sean, give us a clue :grin:
You must be ready to make a decision soon.
I'm plumping for the R32 rears and they are going on the car on Monday afternoon (I'm on nights on Sunday, so in bed in the morning!)
In conjunction with the TAR-OX 10 pots I think there is more than enough braking power.
Fronts £1,650 fitted
Rears £250 fitted
Total cost to you would therefore be £1,900 fitted for both the front and rears :cool:
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TT
I have a carbon setup for the Mk5.
2 x Gen1 350x34mm Porsche PCCB rotors rebelled for the Mk5
2 x Carrera GT (Yes the 450k V10 one) Calipers 6 pots (same caliper family as you're RS4 Ceramics) the calipers are shortly to be refurbed in the matching grey powder coat same as the RS4 and have the audi ceramic logos applied. The piston sizes are 28/30/32mm do the math they're perfect
1 set of nearly new P90 compound PCCB pads (this is RS29 compound by Pagid - same pad)
Lightweight Carriers
Some useless braided hoses :laugh:
All for $not as much as you think
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w69/dave_brown1970/Image050.jpg)
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TT
I have a carbon setup for the Mk5.
2 x Gen1 350x34mm Porsche PCCB rotors rebelled for the Mk5
2 x Carrera GT (Yes the 450k V10 one) Calipers 6 pots (same caliper family as you're RS4 Ceramics) the calipers are shortly to be refurbed in the matching grey powder coat same as the RS4 and have the audi ceramic logos applied. The piston sizes are 28/30/32mm do the math they're perfect
1 set of nearly new P90 compound PCCB pads (this is RS29 compound by Pagid - same pad)
Lightweight Carriers
Some useless braided hoses :laugh:
All for $not as much as you think
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w69/dave_brown1970/Image050.jpg)
Dave, SERIOUSLY tempted, :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: but will these fit under the standard 18" Monza II alloys? :undecided: SWMBO is pretty adamant about keeping the standard rimage. :rolleyes:
Price pleaseeeeeeeee. PM me, over on the other side if you like. But my PC/internet at home is fooked at the mo, so I'm having to nip into my local library and use their dial-up speed public access puters. If you like, I can PM you my mobly number, and we can discuss further. :afro: :afro: :afro: :afro:
Oh, a couple of other Qs. Are the discs new or used? Are the bells your own fabrications? And will the pad wear warning still work?
Ta very muchly! :smiley:
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Come on Sean, give us a clue :grin:
You must be ready to make a decision soon.
I'm plumping for the R32 rears and they are going on the car on Monday afternoon (I'm on nights on Sunday, so in bed in the morning!)
I'm deffo gonna get the R32 or S3 rears - but need to wait on my final choice for the fronts, and then go for either the S3 black caliper, or an unpainted grey caliper from one of the TT quattro models - but this is all dependent on the colour of the fronts.
In conjunction with the TAR-OX 10 pots I think there is more than enough braking power.
Fronts £1,650 fitted
Rears £250 fitted
Total cost to you would therefore be £1,900 fitted for both the front and rears :cool:
£250 for the rears - that is a good price. Were they new or 2nd hand, or do you have another source? :wink: :huh:
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Does the S3/R32 rear large disc conversion require a different caliper when fitted to a GTI? Or can the original GTI caliper be repositioned to accomodate the larger diameter with a spacer type bracket?
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Come on Sean, give us a clue :grin:
You must be ready to make a decision soon.
I'm plumping for the R32 rears and they are going on the car on Monday afternoon (I'm on nights on Sunday, so in bed in the morning!)
I'm deffo gonna get the R32 or S3 rears - but need to wait on my final choice for the fronts, and then go for either the S3 black caliper, or an unpainted grey caliper from one of the TT quattro models - but this is all dependent on the colour of the fronts.
In conjunction with the TAR-OX 10 pots I think there is more than enough braking power.
Fronts £1,650 fitted
Rears £250 fitted
Total cost to you would therefore be £1,900 fitted for both the front and rears :cool:
£250 for the rears - that is a good price. Were they new or 2nd hand, or do you have another source? :wink: :huh:
The rears came off a 2.5k mile S3, but the pads were new :cool:
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Does the S3/R32 rear large disc conversion require a different caliper when fitted to a GTI? Or can the original GTI caliper be repositioned to accomodate the larger diameter with a spacer type bracket?
The standard GTI caliper will fit with the appropriate mounting bracket. However, the S3/R32 spec caliper is much better than the GTI one, because it has a larger diameter hydraulic piston, meaning greater hydraulic advantage - and more importantly, a much better 'hydraulic bias' when used with bigger front brakes. :nerd:
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I'm making progress - watch this space! :wink:
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Does the S3/R32 rear large disc conversion require a different caliper when fitted to a GTI? Or can the original GTI caliper be repositioned to accomodate the larger diameter with a spacer type bracket?
The standard GTI caliper will fit with the appropriate mounting bracket. However, the S3/R32 spec caliper is much better than the GTI one, because it has a larger diameter hydraulic piston, meaning greater hydraulic advantage - and more importantly, a much better 'hydraulic bias' when used with bigger front brakes. :nerd:
the Std GTI disc is non vented, whereas the R32/S3 is vented (ie a thicker disc), so the original GTI calliper will not fit.
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I'm making progress - watch this space! :wink:
Am very interested to see what you have been up to. Will you keep us waiting long?!
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Why?