Author Topic: big brakes  (Read 21582 times)

Offline MummRa

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #50 on: 04 September 2009, 16:11 »
Sorry but there is definatly a differance between ap racings road and track calipers and ap racing do develop fast road kits, that is infact Pete's job.

Big differance between OEM supply and aftermarket fast road

Offline RedRobin

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #51 on: 04 September 2009, 17:15 »

Sorry but there is definatly a differance between ap racings road and track calipers and ap racing do develop fast road kits, that is infact Pete's job.

Big differance between OEM supply and aftermarket fast road


....Thanks, Mum Mumma :evil: - I read T_T Sean's post this morning but have had a very busy day and hadn't replied yet.

Sean, I think I understand what you mean by your post - That indeed there is a difference between road and race products but you believe that AP only do race products (not helped by their name nor their race reputation!). I agree with your point that what works for race doesn't necessarily work so well for road, and of course, vica-versa. If you go to AP's homepage you will see that their offerings are separated between "Competition Car Products" and "Performance Road Products" (their titles) - http://www.apracing.com/car/site.htm

Volkswagen Racing 'suffer' from the same perception - Their core products are race developed but they have also made very conscious efforts to additionally adapt or create products specifically for 'Fast Road' use. Also, I think there is an overlap - When a you press the brake pedal your car doesn't know whether it is being driven spiritedly on a road or a race circuit. OK I know you could argue about various sensors reacting to characteristics of each and therefore 'knowing', but hopefully you see my point. What's the Nordschleife? - A fast, one-way, looped, B-road (with armco and stripey kerbs, but!).

Btw, I wasn't meaning that AP produce their brakes just for me! I meant that they (Pete Collen) knows exactly what type of use the brakes AP supply me are put to.

Going back to your original post, I shall be very interested indeed to hear which brakes you decide on.

:afro:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #52 on: 05 September 2009, 13:03 »
But APs road car products are still inferior many others who make similar aftermarket performance brakes!

Some very pertinent comments regarding APs stuff:

Quote
We’ve been a long advocate of the AP racing brake upgrades . . . . for some years,

the standard brakes are so poor that the AP upgrade has been one of the most popular for ***** owners such is the radical difference the AP brakes offer

However over time we have grown more and more unhappy with the limitations of the AP kits especially on track for both road and race cars

For road cars that go on track we have found the that AP kits do not offer complete braking security for all applications

the relative extra weight of the road car trim (even in **** form) mean that even with AP’s front and rear with high specification brake pads you will still run out of brakes before the end of even a moderate session on track,

this is typically manifested by people experiencing excess pad deposit build up or warped disks – both a sign of excess heat from the braking system

On track this is even more evident, even running on Kumho track days tyres the AP brake set up would barely last 60% race distance before eventually giving up the ghost, a point noted by other competitors in the Kumho **** Championship where our lap times would slowly rise after half race distance, purely down to brakes

With the new **** race series taking shape we suspected that the AP’s would not be able to cope with running on slicks either:

Thorough analysis of the braking system showed three things:

   - Front and rear disks could be larger
   - The callipers were still twin block and therefore generated flex
   - The rear kit was calliper only running only a sold rear disk
   - The disks were fixed with no floating arrangement

We did consult with AP over creating an upgrade . . . but eventually we worked with Alcon to develop the new ***** brake upgrade . . . . this is quite simply the highest capacity brake upgrade possible


So it is clear - that not only are APs brakes not really up to the very high performance that AP would have you believe - but also that they are either unwilling or unable to rectify their shortcommings!  :rolleyes:


Now, this post is NOT meant to have a dig at anyone who uses AP brakes - and if you do use them, and are happy with them, then that is entirely your perrogative.  However, I think it is only fair to advise others who may be considering big brake upgrades is that AP are NOT the bees knees, and there are much better products out there for the same money!

 :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #53 on: 05 September 2009, 14:53 »

So it is clear - that not only are APs brakes not really up to the very high performance that AP would have you believe - but also that they are either unwilling or unable to rectify their shortcommings!  :rolleyes:


Now, this post is NOT meant to have a dig at anyone who uses AP brakes - and if you do use them, and are happy with them, then that is entirely your perrogative.  However, I think it is only fair to advise others who may be considering big brake upgrades is that AP are NOT the bees knees, and there are much better products out there for the same money!

 :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


....Fair enough, Sean. Indeed there may be better big brake kits out there. I can only report that I am extremely happy with mine in relation to my driving and use of my car and so are a great many other people happy with their AP's. Their design is now nearly 4 years old and I expect that others have developed their brake technology further.

However, I can only share my sincerest views, as indeed you are doing, and others will have to make their own decisions.

So, do you know which brakes you are likely to go for yet?

:afro:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #54 on: 05 September 2009, 15:17 »

I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.

If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.


....Had a chat last night with my friend who no longer works at VWR but who did my suspension and is very experienced at setting up cars.

He suggested the same as you suggested might happen with DS2500's on the rear but said I'd be okay if I kept my ESP on. He also told me that if I kept the ESP button depressed for a minimum of 10 second it would also switch off all the ABS etc. We both agreed that I'd feel more confident with ESP left On.


VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking


But that will only really work when you are in a dead straight line, on a flat and level road.  The moment you apply some steering input, or get lateral forces due to leaning road surfaces, or even noticeable side winds - then there is a high probablility that the back end will brake away much sooner, and with much less warning - those traits are fine on the race track, but highly undesireable on the public road.


....Again, my friend would agree with you (and his answers were with absolutely no knowledge of your comments). His suggested solution was to let 2 or 3 psi out of my tyres resulting in emulating softer rubber and giving more grip. Also, he felt that as my suspension was absolutely in the sweet-spot (apparently VWR have now put the same on their demo car because mine felt better), it was best left alone and, as you say, it needs to serve BOTH road and occasional track. My suspension could be further tweaked for track but it's most definitely good enough for some 62yo GIT!

I now feel able to totally justify my purchase of this gizmo : - Tyre Pressure & Temperature Monitor - Group Buy....


but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!


Very wise!  :wink: :afro:


....And with age, comes wisdom (so I'm told!).

:afro:
« Last Edit: 05 September 2009, 15:24 by RedRobin »
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #55 on: 10 September 2009, 09:32 »

I can see how this doesn't appear to address a bias improvement but I'm going to start off with just the DS2500's all round.

If you just use DS2500s all round, then you might actually make the bias worse - simply due to the compound of the DS2500.

....Had a chat last night with my friend who no longer works at VWR but who did my suspension and is very experienced at setting up cars.

He suggested the same as you suggested might happen with DS2500's on the rear

Great minds think alike!  :wink:

but said I'd be okay if I kept my ESP on.

Hmmmmmm . . . . the actual ESP wont really be a great help in controlling the actual bias - the bias is controlled by the 'Electronic Brakeforce Distribution' (EBD), which is still a component of the ESP/ABS system.  But the EBD (and ABS) is map controlled, and just like an engine will gain no advantage from using BP 102 on a standard engine map.  Which is why I keep going on about improving the rear brakes with bigger discs & caliper pistons when fronts are improved.  But the ESP should certainly help to keep you away from the kitty litter or hedges.

But the most important issue regarding the ESP - is simply that the Golf Mk5 doesn't actually need it.  The Golf 5 chassis is beautifully balanced, and categorically does NOT need any assistance in the handling balance - with the standard brakes.  If you can give 100% concentration to your driving, without any other distractions (screaming kids, nagging SWMBOs, or totty spotting  :embarassed:) - then in all honesty, the ESP should be turned off.


He also told me that if I kept the ESP button depressed for a minimum of 10 second it would also switch off all the ABS etc.

Nope.  Only the 'stability' and 'traction' releated components of the ESP can be turned off.  That means the ESP, and the undocumented CBC (Cornering Brake Control), along with ASR and EDL.  But any of the actual 'braking' functions definately can NOT be turned off - so you can't turn off the ABS, EBD or BA.  This is the case on all cars, even those with three-stage ESPs such as Audi RS cars, and multi-stage ESPs such as on some high-end sports cars like Lambos and Fezzers.  :nerd:

So someone has been telling porkies!  :wink:


We both agreed that I'd feel more confident with ESP left On.

ETTO and all that, but the Mk5 GTI, on decent tyres does not need the ESP.


VWR tell me that stiffening the front end will help weight transfer and hence reduce rear end twitchiness under braking

But that will only really work when you are in a dead straight line, on a flat and level road.  The moment you apply some steering input, or get lateral forces due to leaning road surfaces, or even noticeable side winds - then there is a high probablility that the back end will brake away much sooner, and with much less warning - those traits are fine on the race track, but highly undesireable on the public road.

....Again, my friend would agree with you (and his answers were with absolutely no knowledge of your comments).

Great minds, part deux!  :grin:

His suggested solution was to let 2 or 3 psi out of my tyres resulting in emulating softer rubber and giving more grip.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . that may be acceptable on a closed race track, but on a public highway, even on a one way toll road :wink: - really shouldn' be recommeded.  Lowering the tyre pressure, then hammering round at high speeds, and using the brakes heavily will start to create huge build-up of heat in the tyres - and this is a sure-fire recipe for premature blow-outs.  Thruxton race circuit is a very valid demonstrator of this. :wink:

This kind of advice really is only appropriate for proper racing tyres, where you need the 'flex' in the solid tread area to heat up the rubber to get grip.  But on decent road tyres, the steel belting in the tread plies will prevent the tread area flexing, and will simply make the sidewall flex more, especially the area of the sidewall where it meets the tread area.  And lowering front tyre pressures will also make the front end LESS stable, and will 'squirm' around under braking.

Leave that advice for real racing cars, using real racing tyres. :wink:


Also, he felt that as my suspension was absolutely in the sweet-spot (apparently VWR have now put the same on their demo car because mine felt better), it was best left alone and, as you say, it needs to serve BOTH road and occasional track. My suspension could be further tweaked for track but it's most definitely good enough for some 62yo GIT!

I totally agree.  I think your suspension is set up really sweet, from the little demo you gave me at JKM earlier this year, and is obviously a daily driver.  But if you have adjustable damping (I don't know the full detail of the functions of your set-up), then increasing compression damping, especially the high speed compression damping (if they have a separate high and low speed adjustment), would really benefit on track days.


I now feel able to totally justify my purchase of this gizmo : - Tyre Pressure & Temperature Monitor - Group Buy....

Hmmmmm . . . . whilst that is an excellent piece of kit, I reckon it will only serv as a worrying alarm when used on a track - because if you are giving it 10 10ths on a race track, you will be quite alarmed at how the tyre pressures rise.

And the best bit of kit is the simple PCL pencil type tyre pressure guage, along with the good ole Mk1 eyeball.


but, as Hurdy says, this runs the risk of greatly reducing that margin of feedback and the car potentially letting go! I think I'd rather experience the twitchiness as a warning sign than extend my car's limits but with the risk of no feedback before losing it!

Very wise!  :wink: :afro:

....And with age, comes wisdom (so I'm told!).

:afro:

Did yours get lost in the post?   :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:  :kiss:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #56 on: 10 September 2009, 09:47 »
So, do you know which brakes you are likely to go for yet?

:afro:

Well not yet!  :rolleyes:  But I think I am gonna have to rule out the MovIts.  There are 'issues' with their reliability, and also some slight issues with the person who sells them.

So me being a cantankerous old ba$tard at times, with a potentially dodgy product, and a 'difficult' seller - probably won't make for a happy outcome.  :embarassed:

But if anyone is interested in the prices (+VAT) for Movits, here goes:
  • front: 342x34 two-part ceramic disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper - £4,900.00 - gulp!
  • front: 342x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper - £1,950.00
  • front: 342x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 6-pot monobloc caliper - £2,700.00
  • front: 370x34 two-part iron/alloy disc and 6-pot monobloc caliper - £3,300.00
  • rear: 322x28 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper and separate handbrake caliper - £1,900.00
  • rear: 342x28 two-part iron/alloy disc and 4-pot monobloc caliper and separate handbrake caliper - £1,900.00

Standard caliper colours are black, red, or yellow.  Can't remember if custom colours were available or not! :embarassed:

And from what I could gather, their 4-pot calipers are made by Brembo - but I couldn't really get an answer on the 6-pots (or maybe I just missed it! :undecided:)

So food for thought at anyone else considering them.  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline jaydubveedub

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #57 on: 10 September 2009, 10:13 »
So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.

Sh!t a brick.
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #58 on: 10 September 2009, 10:18 »

So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.

Sh!t a brick.


....You'll probably sh!t a brick from the stopping power too!

Oh, and you've forgotten the extra cost for the G-suit, or do you get one free? And your gym membership and personal trainer.

 :evil:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: big brakes
« Reply #59 on: 10 September 2009, 11:22 »
So if you go for the ceramics up front, and their most expensive system on the rears, then add the VAT, it's £7800.

It makes the factory fitted Audi ceramics, with mooohasive 380x38 discs, and specialist 6-pot Brembos on my RS4 an absolute bargain at £3604.26 (+vat). :cool: :cool: :cool: :smug: :smug: :smug:


Sh!t a brick.

Erm, I've been doing enough of that recently! :sick: :embarassed: :grin:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo