GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Golf mk7 GTD/TDI => Topic started by: Buddy on 02 October 2013, 20:50
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Notched over the 1,000 mile mark at the weekend. Everything seems to be loosening up nicely and have been throwing in the odd spirited burst here and there :evil: this is a sorted car.
To celebrate this millenium landmark, I bit the bullet today and ordered a tuning box from tdi-tuning. Huge advertised gains and I'm looking forward to seeing how the claims translate :laugh: I'll update my experience and findings here.
It's due to arrive via UPS at some point tomorrow and I plan to fit it when I get home from work.
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Will be interested to hear how you get on with the box from tdi-tuning... their claimed power increases are certainly very ambitious! About 235ps iirc?
Couldn't agree more.. it's a thoroughly sorted car even as standard.
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Yeh around 235 bhp and around 360 ft lbs!
Great gains if they bear out.
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Jeez can't wait to hear about this one!
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Buddy, are you driving a manual or DSG? Still waiting for my DSG to arrive but think I may get it tuned at some point. Just not sure how it will work with DSG and the torque.
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I really hope this is true, however, take it with a pinch of salt I think! Cant wait to hear your thoughts. If you can, a 0-60 time would be great, as ive read its closer to 6.8/9 as standard than the 7.5 quoted
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I really hope this is true, however, take it with a pinch of salt I think! Cant wait to hear your thoughts. If you can, a 0-60 time would be great, as ive read its closer to 6.8/9 as standard than the 7.5 quoted
That 7.5 secs is 0-62 and that does make a difference even if small, - I have seen in time 6.7 to 7.1 secs 0-60
But anyway spin it, all is quick enough for UK roads in day to day, it's a total fact.
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I really hope this is true, however, take it with a pinch of salt I think! Cant wait to hear your thoughts. If you can, a 0-60 time would be great, as ive read its closer to 6.8/9 as standard than the 7.5 quoted
I doubt the extra 50bhp will make all that much difference to 0-60 times because the car is traction limited in first gear and probably some of second (and it will not reduce the required number of gear changes). The extra power and torque will be used to turn the tyres into smoke and black lines on the road
It should make the biggest difference in "normal driving" where power will be much more accessible and the car is much less likely to be traction limited e.g mid range acceleration for overtaking and on the motorway...
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I really hope this is true, however, take it with a pinch of salt I think! Cant wait to hear your thoughts. If you can, a 0-60 time would be great, as ive read its closer to 6.8/9 as standard than the 7.5 quoted
That 7.5 secs is 0-62 and that does make a difference even if small, - I have seen in time 6.7 to 7.1 secs 0-60
But anyway spin it, all is quick enough for UK roads in day to day, it's a total fact.
True but on occasions you do like to nail it from stand still or burst some pr*ck in a wee fiesta st or whatever it may be to put him back in his cage. I rag the sh*t out my a3 2.0 and still manage after three years from new 45mpg
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I really hope this is true, however, take it with a pinch of salt I think! Cant wait to hear your thoughts. If you can, a 0-60 time would be great, as ive read its closer to 6.8/9 as standard than the 7.5 quoted
That 7.5 secs is 0-62 and that does make a difference even if small, - I have seen in time 6.7 to 7.1 secs 0-60
But anyway spin it, all is quick enough for UK roads in day to day, it's a total fact.
True but on occasions you do like to nail it from stand still or burst some pr*ck in a wee fiesta st or whatever it may be to put him back in his cage. I rag the sh*t out my a3 2.0 and still manage after three years from new 45mpg
As said in another post my present car has not embarrassed me in such situations over 6 years and not suspecting the GTD would either- Mine is easily 45mpg -50mpg and aside from some ride issues I could not have been more happy with my 2 x A3 but time for a change and not having any doubts that GTD will be a great car too.
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Main reason for a remap / box on GTD????
Apart from the possible extra 10% economy( not so fussed about this as this is the reason I ordered a GTD), what gains/benefits have you guys seen or expect to get? will it accelerate from 40mph to 100 mph allot quicker, does power come in sooner so if your on bends giving it sum, you can brake and accelerate hard and feel that your on a laptime.,...seen figures increase in bhp of 35/50bhp which is alot, torque gains.....but what does this actually do for you day in day out??????
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True but on occasions you do like to nail it from stand still or burst some pr*ck in a wee fiesta st or whatever it may be to put him back in his cage. I rag the sh*t out my a3 2.0 and still manage after three years from new 45mpg
Wrong car for that... The New Fiesta ST is quite quick... 0-62 in 6.9...
If you feel the need for that... you need to buy something fast... and it is do-able for much less than a new Golf GTD...
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...will it accelerate from 40mph to 100 mph allot quicker...
Yes, it should be much quicker... it will not be traction limited at those speeds.
does power come in sooner so if your on bends giving it sum
I doubt it but you may need to be more careful with the throttle... the same throttle opening will, more than likely, result in more power than without the tuning box
you can brake and accelerate hard and feel that your on a laptime
Are you panning to track the car? The tuning box will not have any effect on the braking capability of the car, although you should, perhaps, consider a brake upgrade... If you cannot feel the effect of 35-50bhp then I'd be very surprised...
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seen figures increase in bhp of 35/50bhp which is alot, torque gains
It is a significant increase. So consider the extra costs - if you make use of all the extra power - reduced brake life, reduced clutch life, reduced tyre life, significantly increased insurance (probably), effect on warranty if VW found out... etc. etc.
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True but on occasions you do like to nail it from stand still or burst some pr*ck in a wee fiesta st or whatever it may be to put him back in his cage. I rag the sh*t out my a3 2.0 and still manage after three years from new 45mpg
Wrong car for that... The New Fiesta ST is quite quick... 0-62 in 6.9...
If you feel the need for that... you need to buy something fast... and it is do-able for much less than a new Golf GTD...
Yeh but I do a lot of miles in the car for work, so I do need it to be economical as well, so surely this has the best of both worlds! it will be quick, but not dangerously quick. Current car states (A3) 8.5 and people state 6.9 or so for GTD so that to me will feel fast enough, especially after a remap/box. But as people say, diesels are great from 30mph
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Thankyou Corgi
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Yeh but I do a lot of miles in the car for work, so I do need it to be economical as well, so surely this has the best of both worlds! it will be quick, but not dangerously quick. Current car states (A3) 8.5 and people state 6.9 or so for GTD so that to me will feel fast enough, especially after a remap/box. But as people say, diesels are great from 30mph
So do I (a lot of miles) that's why I've ordered a GTD as a company car... makes the most sense given the BIK advantage (especially as it comes so well equipped as standard) but I don't kid myself that its going to be anything other than a decently quick diesel hatch... much the same as the g/f's new 120d MSport (which, by the way, is pretty good)...
I've done my fair share of motorsport (and still do) so don't feel the need to race on the road...
If I want more performance, I can take my other car out...
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Yeh but I do a lot of miles in the car for work, so I do need it to be economical as well, so surely this has the best of both worlds! it will be quick, but not dangerously quick. Current car states (A3) 8.5 and people state 6.9 or so for GTD so that to me will feel fast enough, especially after a remap/box. But as people say, diesels are great from 30mph
So do I (a lot of miles) that's why I've ordered a GTD as a company car... makes the most sense given the BIK advantage (especially as it comes so well equipped as standard) but I don't kid myself that its going to be anything other than a decently quick diesel hatch... much the same as the g/f's new 120d MSport (which, by the way, is pretty good)...
I've done my fair share of motorsport (and still do) so don't feel the need to race on the road...
If I want more performance, I can take my other car out...
Im not saying i race on the road but like everyone, i occasionally like to put the foot down now and again. Maybe a GTI should have been ordered. But at 600 plus miles a week 30mpg just wouldnt make financial sense
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Fitted. 5 minute job. Left the settings as it came.
And the car even started afterwards which was a bit of a relief, I'm not gonna lie!
Will nip out in a bit and report back.
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Fitted. 5 minute job. Left the settings as it came.
And the car even started afterwards which was a bit of a relief, I'm not gonna lie!
Will nip out in a bit and report back.
I don't know why but I'm all excited in light of what I hope is some epic feedback to this box
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Took it for a 20 minute outing. Once up to temp I floored it on the few open stretches I could find (or hang back to create).
Wow, it definitely pulls better, a lot better. Not convinced that it's 235bhp but what's great about it is that the extra power and torque still feel well within the capabilities of this chassis and drivetrain. Have remapped every turbo & turbo diesel car I've ever owned and the biggest drawback with all the FWD ones is the torque steer, scrabbling, wheel spinning and general inefficient application of the extra power. None of that here. Torque steer is all but non existent and even applying the power mid bend does not seem to unsettle it but I didn't take as far I will be in different conditions.
Will test it on the motorway tomorrow where I expect the power delivery will come into its own and will have a proper test over the weekend :laugh: and will look to try out the other map settings over the weekend too.
First impressions are good. The box itself definitely and appreciably enhances the car's performance and in my mind it's worth the money. The great news is that this car laps up the extra power with ease. All of this for less than £300 and totally traceless during servicing/warranty work etc.
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Buddy it has been over an hour...where are you come back home & report on the box!!!!
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Buddy, are you driving a manual or DSG? Still waiting for my DSG to arrive but think I may get it tuned at some point. Just not sure how it will work with DSG and the torque.
Mine's a manual Neil
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Buddy it has been over an hour...where are you come back home & report on the box!!!!
Haha sorry dude :smiley:
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Likey Likey :wink:
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Brilliant. That'll be a purchase then.
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You'll have to let us know about the economy implications driving it "normally" when you've finished blasting the car around. Any chance of getting a GTI test drive and seeing if the GTD+ outdoes a stock GTI?
My dad was very pleased with his tdi-tuning.co.uk box on the MK5 170TDI for well over 30k miles of use. 200 PS and 10% better fuel economy.
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Sounds good. I was looking at this one:
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/carspecs2?carid=6578
Will be interesting to see what mpg you average with it. Im sure most of you are aware but don't forget that when one of these is installed the cars indicated mpg will be way off due to the fuel pressure signal modifications - the car thinks the fuel pressure is lower than it actually is so calculates less fuel being used i.e the indicated mpg will be higher than actual. Tank to tank and a calculator will be the only way of knowing.
When my car finally shows up i'll try to do some comparisons.
I'm willing to take a bit of an economy hit for 50hp.
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Sounds good. I was looking at this one:
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/carspecs2?carid=6578
Will be interesting to see what mpg you average with it. Im sure most of you are aware but don't forget that when one of these is installed the cars indicated mpg will be way off due to the fuel pressure signal modifications - the car thinks the fuel pressure is lower than it actually is so calculates less fuel being used i.e the indicated mpg will be higher than actual. Tank to tank and a calculator will be the only way of knowing.
When my car finally shows up i'll try to do some comparisons.
I'm willing to take a bit of an economy hit for 50hp.
That looks interesting, I've not heard of Bluespark before. It appears that "Bluespark Pro with Boost Control" unit can also modify the boost just like the one from DTUK.
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Yep as expected, the in gear acceleration feels far better. The GTD as standard is a lovely cruiser. Ample power, when needed, to be able to overtake easily or accelerate briskly out of a queueing slip road into faster traffic. With the box of tricks fitted, that experience can be slightly more frenetic if you want it to! :evil:
I know it's a cliche but you put your foot down and when you look down you see your speedo dial way further round than you were expecting! Yet again a testament to the car and how easily it handles the power but the feeling of accelerating from 60 to a 'significantly higher' number, is just effortless and seems almost instantaneous.
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You'll have to let us know about the economy implications driving it "normally" when you've finished blasting the car around. Any chance of getting a GTI test drive and seeing if the GTD+ outdoes a stock GTI?
My dad was very pleased with his tdi-tuning.co.uk box on the MK5 170TDI for well over 30k miles of use. 200 PS and 10% better fuel economy.
Will do mate. Would love to do a gti test drive actually. I think my local dealer has/had one so will try and do that soon.
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http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2013/09/vw-golf-7-gtd-review.html?m=1
Posted this is in review section but looks good in the c.g
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Car came with the middle map setup. I've had it on the top map and second from top map for much of the weekend... No smoke with either and so for now I've left it in top. Feck me it's properly quick now :laugh:
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Car came with the middle map setup. I've had it on the top map and second from top map for much of the weekend... No smoke with either and so for now I've left it in top. Feck me it's properly quick now :laugh:
You've probably gone from somewhere around 215PS on the mid map to the full 235PS (or as close to that as reality is). Have you got a list if all the maps and what they're supposed to be doing performance/eco wise?
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I am really really tempted by this. For £300 it does seem a bit of a no brainer.
Couple of questions...
1) Does this invalidate your warranty? My GTD is a PCH and it does concern me that if anything unrelated goes wrong - it is a new model and it wouldn't surprise me to have a few teething problems - the dealer will be unwilling to fix;
2) Did you let your insurance know? If so, how much difference did it make to your quote?
Cheers,
Andrew
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These boxes are designed to be used and removed without trace, so no warranty considerations as long as you are able to remove it before it goes to the dealers. Insurance is another matter. If you are confident you will never have a front end collision you could always be in a position to remove it following a bump, best to stay within the law when you risk invalidating your insurance on a £26k car as insurance companies already do all they can to wriggle out of a claim. Many insurance companies are remap friendly to 20% increase, for an additional fee.
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Car came with the middle map setup. I've had it on the top map and second from top map for much of the weekend... No smoke with either and so for now I've left it in top. Feck me it's properly quick now :laugh:
You've probably gone from somewhere around 215PS on the mid map to the full 235PS (or as close to that as reality is). Have you got a list if all the maps and what they're supposed to be doing performance/eco wise?
It's a straight sliding scale of max eco to max performance. 7 jumper positions. 1 being max eco, 4 being how it came and 7 being max performance.
Will get round to doing a pre and post economy add-up eventually but for now its hard not to be putting my foot down at every opportunity just to feel the huge lump of torque. The power comes in fractionally sooner, is far more aggressive when you ask for it and best of all is sustained further into the rev range. 6th gear which was a bit limp before, now feels like its kicking down to 5th even from 2,000 rpm. At the other end of the scale, traction control which was lighting up now and then when pulling off hard in 1st, now even wants to intervene in 3rd if I floor it.
Money well spent and as much power as I could want for to be fair, although I'm v interested in trying out one of the dual channel systems out there to see if it feels much quicker. I don't get how a tuning box can actually adjust the turbo boost pressure without writing to the ecu. I wonder if any of the tuning guys on the forum could explain the science behind it :nerd:
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The boost signal is just modified in the same way the fuel rail pressure is with single channel boxes. i.e tells the ecu the boost is lower than it actually is so the ecu won't open the control valve until a higher boost pressure is present.
Sounds like there are good gains to be had. Will be getting one of these as soon as my car arrives. I have a 10hz gps performance box so will do some comparisons.
Only 3 weeks to go :laugh: (I hope)!
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aren't maximum readings of engine control units stored in the memory? so if anything does go wrong vw will be able to tell. how certain are you that is 100% untraceable?
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It's a straight sliding scale of max eco to max performance. 7 jumper positions. 1 being max eco, 4 being how it came and 7 being max performance.
Will get round to doing a pre and post economy add-up eventually but for now its hard not to be putting my foot down at every opportunity just to feel the huge lump of torque. The power comes in fractionally sooner, is far more aggressive when you ask for it and best of all is sustained further into the rev range. 6th gear which was a bit limp before, now feels like its kicking down to 5th even from 2,000 rpm. At the other end of the scale, traction control which was lighting up now and then when pulling off hard in 1st, now even wants to intervene in 3rd if I floor it.
Money well spent and as much power as I could want for to be fair, although I'm v interested in trying out one of the dual channel systems out there to see if it feels much quicker. I don't get how a tuning box can actually adjust the turbo boost pressure without writing to the ecu. I wonder if any of the tuning guys on the forum could explain the science behind it :nerd:
Great to hear how you're getting on with the box :smiley:
How has it affected the different driving modes i.e. Normal, Sport? Is there still a noticeable difference between them?
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aren't maximum readings of engine control units stored in the memory? so if anything does go wrong vw will be able to tell. how certain are you that is 100% untraceable?
The box modifies the rail (or rail and boost) pressure sensor signals. As far as the ecu is concerned they are within normal ranges. The car has no way of knowing if the signal it receives from a sensor has been modified. IMHO it is 100% untraceable.
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Haven't tried it any other settings, I'm always on my preferred individual setting, which includes everything on sport except for DCC, but will have a play tomorrow.
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Haven't tried it any other settings, I'm always on my preferred individual setting, which includes everything on sport except for DCC, but will have a play tomorrow.
You might want to send your box back under the 14 day returns policy to get the dual channel unit. They have reduced the price of the dual channel unit temporarily to the same as the single channel variety (£289.99), which also feeds in to the turbo manifold.
I was in an online chat with them and they were claiming 5% gains on the single channel unit, although the details brought up for it were 202Bhp/192PS (obviously a mistake as 202BHP is about 206PS), and the torque figures were about 445Nm. I brought this to the rep’s attention and they said it was a mistake on the web page and corrected the figs on the web page to those of the single channel unit.
I’m 99% sure I’m going to bite the bullet and order a dual channel system today, as much for the economy gains as the power output (this thing would pay for itself in about 2 years if it ups my fuel economy by 10% (as my dad’s unit did for his MK5 Golf).
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You might want to send your box back under the 14 day returns policy to get the dual channel unit. They have reduced the price of the dual channel unit temporarily to the same as the single channel variety (£289.99), which also feeds in to the turbo manifold.
I was in an online chat with them and they were claiming 5% gains on the single channel unit, although the details brought up for it were 202Bhp/192PS (obviously a mistake as 202BHP is about 206PS), and the torque figures were about 445Nm. I brought this to the rep’s attention and they said it was a mistake on the web page and corrected the figs on the web page to those of the single channel unit.
I’m 99% sure I’m going to bite the bullet and order a dual channel system today, as much for the economy gains as the power output (this thing would pay for itself in about 2 years if it ups my fuel economy by 10% (as my dad’s unit did for his MK5 Golf).
Go on, you know you want to :evil:
I'm sure their 2-channel unit is a fairly recent addition to their site? Seems like the better bet as they're both the same price at the moment.
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andyk11: Are you getting one Andy?
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andyk11: Are you getting one Andy?
Sure a lot of people will according to the gains on the website, but yet again they are but mere claims. I will be buying this come collection of the car in mid Nov
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andyk11: Are you getting one Andy?
I'm very tempted... if I do get one it'll be this one. I'm hoping you'll take the plunge and let us know what it's like :smiley:
To be honest I'm missing the way my Mondeo (remapped to 227BHP & 366lb/ft) used to effortlessly deliver huge dollops of torque at motorway speeds. In comparison the GTD feels a little flat in 5th and 6th. On the other hand the GTD is so much more responsive through the gears and well balanced that it feels quicker cross country as standard.
I think a tuning box will be the icing on the cake to make the most of a really competent chassis.
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andyk11: Are you getting one Andy?
I'm very tempted... if I do get one it'll be this one. I'm hoping you'll take the plunge and let us know what it's like :smiley:
To be honest I'm missing the way my Mondeo (remapped to 227BHP & 366lb/ft) used to effortlessly deliver huge dollops of torque at motorway speeds. In comparison the GTD feels a little flat in 5th and 6th. On the other hand the GTD is so much more responsive through the gears and well balanced that it feels quicker cross country as standard.
I think a tuning box will be the icing on the cake to make the most of a really competent chassis.
I think that the GTD is sometimes a bit smooth for its own good. Mine is still tight as a drum with just under 600 miles on it, but the pull in 5th and 6th feels a bit limp compared to my Scirocco 170TDI when you put your foot down at 60mph. Sometimes though, the feel of it pulling doesn’t seem to compare to what the dials are showing you that the car is doing. It’s a lot more rapid than it feels – the Scirocco felt a bit more raw.
Better be quick if you want a dual channel box, the online chat op (Gareth or Gavin) indicated that the price drop was only for a few weeks. I suspect they’ve dropped it to shift a few units because the erroneous posted performance specs made it look a bit sh!te next to the single channel unit, before I brought their error to their attention to make the corrections. Sid it, I’m going to place an order on one of these bad boys right now!
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I think that the GTD is sometimes a bit smooth for its own good. Mine is still tight as a drum with just under 600 miles on it, but the pull in 5th and 6th feels a bit limp compared to my Scirocco 170TDI when you put your foot down at 60mph. Sometimes though, the feel of it pulling doesn’t seem to compare to what the dials are showing you that the car is doing. It’s a lot more rapid than it feels – the Scirocco felt a bit more raw.
Better be quick if you want a dual channel box, the online chat op (Gareth or Gavin) indicated that the price drop was only for a few weeks. I suspect they’ve dropped it to shift a few units because the erroneous posted performance specs made it look a bit sh!te next to the single channel unit, before I brought their error to their attention to make the corrections. Sid it, I’m going to place an order on one of these bad boys right now!
I've found the GTD engine really smooth as well. It revs around to 3.5k quite happily and makes quite a pleasant growl whilst doing so. I do think it's a great diesel engine... just needs a touch more power.
Good call on the dual channel box, will have to think seriously on it over the next few days.
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Ordered! Roll on Monday! Word of advice for anyone getting theirs delivered to somewhere other than their home/billing address e.g. workplace. Fill in the order form with your delivery address then on the sage pay page, alter billing address from what was your inputted delivery address. The main order placement page doesn’t seem to accommodate a billing address and a shipping address.
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Sure a lot of people will according to the gains on the website, but yet again they are but mere claims. I will be buying this come collection of the car in mid Nov
Well I’m a believer based on Buddy’s input and the unit my dad had in his MK5 GT 170TDI for 3 years/50k miles. I wish I’d kept that now – it fetched £29 on ebay and yet TDI-tuning.co.uk do an upgrade service for £69.99 which includes replacing the box/cabling if required – would’ve been a cheap way of getting one. We won’t know for sure exactly what they’re kicking out until someone gets their car dyno’d with one fitted but I’m sure the difference will be very noticeable. On paper this looks the most impressive unit out there, eclipsing DTUK (220PS/470Nm/£395 with current offer) on power/torque and price.
My biggest worry is traction. Despite the “anti-tramping” device the GTD supposedly has, I see a bit of scrabbling for initial grip in the wet for a quick take-off. I attribute this to my Bridgestone tyres – very hard wearing but a bit crap in the wet for pulling away, like they were on my MK5. My Dad’s GTD with the dreaded Dunlops fitted doesn’t have the same traction issues pulling away from a busy roundabout in the wet.
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They offered me the dual channel for the same price but said I'd have to pop up to Chelmsford for fitting because it needed to be specified & set up for the individual car... I said just to send me the standard system and if I feel the need for more power i'll take them up and drive over for a swap out. They were cool with that and confirmed that the deal is open all month for all VAG cars.
Have fun MH!
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They offered me the dual channel for the same price but said I'd have to pop up to Chelmsford for fitting because it needed to be specified & set up for the individual car... I said just to send me the standard system and if I feel the need for more power i'll take them up and drive over for a swap out. They were cool with that and confirmed that the deal is open all month for all VAG cars.
Have fun MH!
Not sure why they're happy to send mine out if yours would need a fitting for setting up? Maybe yours would've been the first GTD with the system and they'd be using yours as a bit of a guinea pig for getting optimum setting tweaks?
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They offered me the dual channel for the same price but said I'd have to pop up to Chelmsford for fitting because it needed to be specified & set up for the individual car... I said just to send me the standard system and if I feel the need for more power i'll take them up and drive over for a swap out. They were cool with that and confirmed that the deal is open all month for all VAG cars.
Have fun MH!
Not sure why they're happy to send mine out if yours would need a fitting for setting up? Maybe yours would've been the first GTD with the system and they'd be using yours as a bit of a guinea pig for getting optimum setting tweaks?
Good question. Would be good to find out how yours goes, plus how easy it is to install it as have heard the boost pressure sensor is a bit harder to get to.
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Be interested to see some fitting pictures if you get a chance MH.
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Be interested to see some fitting pictures if you get a chance MH.
I'm hoping that they will supply some pics to point out the direction to the boost sensor outlet on the turbo intercooler. I think the common-rail fuel sensor plug should be easier to find, under the plastic engine cover somewhere.
Will take some pics when fitting (bet it pisses it down tomorrow :angry:)
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Common rail sensor plug is to the far left of the array. Real quick & easy to get to.
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Wow mapping started really quickly!
What are people's thoughts on these alleged gains?? They seem a bit pie in the sky IMO...
My full REVO ECU map on the mk6 GTD was allegedly circa 210bhp, didn't feel like it at all and surprised if it would have been much more than 200, so a 30bhp increase from stock.
Cant see a near 60bhp increase from a tuning box, I would have thought between 220-230 tops would be more likely.
What's max torque for GTD clutch?
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I'm interested in one of these but would like to see how people get on with em first. Also I'm not the best under a bonnet so the ten min plug and at claim could well be an exaggeration
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Misterp: Once you know where the plugs are, unplugging/replugging is a cinch as long as access isn't a problem (not sure where the turbo "channel" is plugging in or how easy it is to get to). We took my dad's box off his MK5 for trade-in, in about 2 minutes. I'm hoping there's a clear diagram that comes with the box. They must know how far apart the 2 plug-in points are to determine the length of cabling to use.
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What's max torque for GTD clutch?
I think I’d be more worried about the clutch on a DSG than a manual. Even so, isn’t the 6 speed DSG rated for 450Nm (on the conservative side probably).
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What's max torque for GTD clutch?
I think I’d be more worried about the clutch on a DSG than a manual. Even so, isn’t the 6 speed DSG rated for 450Nm (on the conservative side probably).
Seem to remember some TT's with the 170 engine having clutch problems after a remap because of max torgue rating, I'd be careful if I was you...
Do you think traction will be a problem? The mk6 after remap had the traction light flashing very often in first and second without much effort.
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Seem to remember some TT's with the 170 engine having clutch problems after a remap because of max torgue rating, I'd be careful if I was you...
Do you think traction will be a problem? The mk6 after remap had the traction light flashing very often in first and second without much effort.
Traction is already is problem with my GTD. Initial pick-up when pulling away with more than ½ throttle in the damp leads to tramping. If I’m in 2nd and put my foot 2/3 down under 15mph in the damp then again I get tramping.
I attribute the tramping in the damp to my Bridgestone Potenza tyres. In my MK7 GT Sport TDI170, tramping was prevalent with the Bridgestone Potenzas that came with the car. My Scirocco 170TDI never had a single tramping incident in wet or dry, with either the Pirelli P7s that came with, nor the Michelin Pilot Sport 3s that were fitted after. On the move traction is not a worry with the Bridgestones, I don’t feel that the car is going to slide etc at any point. The Bridgestones are a hardwearing compound – I got 23k out of the fronts on my MK5.
Were the TT 170s with clutch issues manual or DSG? As said, DSG 6 speed is rated for 450Nm. The manual’s clutch should be a lot more resilient than that. All said, it depends what you want from the box. I want more mpg and extra 4th/5th/6th clout when I might need it. I know that even with some grippier tyres – initial take-off of the GTD is it’s Achilles heel in 0-62 times due to grip vs torque surge (A3 with same engine shaves 0.6s off when Quattro is specced) I’m unlikely to keep this car beyond warranty either.
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The box is here, but it’s hoying it down with rain so I’m not sure I’ll get the opportunity to fit it at lunchtime. I have scanned the instructions in PDF for anyone that wants them emailing (unless, can I attach PDFs here or do I need to add them to photobucket at home later?). The documentation includes a colour photo of the GTD engine bay with the plastic engine cover off and the 2 points of connection labelled up. They are at the left of the common rail (for the injector sensor) and towards the right of the bay, on the left side of the air intake is where the intercooler sensor plugin seems to be.
Plenty of cable ties to hold the wiring harness and box in place. If you want to whip one of these out in a hurry (possible breakdown for VW assistance/RAC to recover to your dealer) I would suggest that you leave a pair of pliers in the car for snipping the cable ties. There is an Adrian Flux card in the box – so perhaps that particular broker looks upon these boxes favourably with minimal insurance premium “enhancements” – I will get a quote with them and see what the outcome is.
5 mins of the 10 min fitting time seems to be opening your vehicle up, popping the bonnet, closing the car up and waiting 5 mins for any residual current to leave the common rail sensor.
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Seem to remember some TT's with the 170 engine having clutch problems after a remap because of max torgue rating, I'd be careful if I was you...
Do you think traction will be a problem? The mk6 after remap had the traction light flashing very often in first and second without much effort.
Traction is already is problem with my GTD. Initial pick-up when pulling away with more than ½ throttle in the damp leads to tramping. If I’m in 2nd and put my foot 2/3 down under 15mph in the damp then again I get tramping.
I attribute the tramping in the damp to my Bridgestone Potenza tyres. In my MK7 GT Sport TDI170, tramping was prevalent with the Bridgestone Potenzas that came with the car. My Scirocco 170TDI never had a single tramping incident in wet or dry, with either the Pirelli P7s that came with, nor the Michelin Pilot Sport 3s that were fitted after. On the move traction is not a worry with the Bridgestones, I don’t feel that the car is going to slide etc at any point. The Bridgestones are a hardwearing compound – I got 23k out of the fronts on my MK5.
Were the TT 170s with clutch issues manual or DSG? As said, DSG 6 speed is rated for 450Nm. The manual’s clutch should be a lot more resilient than that. All said, it depends what you want from the box. I want more mpg and extra 4th/5th/6th clout when I might need it. I know that even with some grippier tyres – initial take-off of the GTD is it’s Achilles heel in 0-62 times due to grip vs torque surge (A3 with same engine shaves 0.6s off when Quattro is specced) I’m unlikely to keep this car beyond warranty either.
I thought it was manuals but don't quote me as it was a while back to be honest.
I've had both Pirelli P6000's and Falken's (can't remember type) on the mk6 GTD and the traction has been an issue with both. Had a friend who also experienced similar as well but not sure what tyres he had.
I'd be getting the Goodyear Assym's if I wasn't happy...
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It is still lashing it down. Didn't fit the box at lunchtime....maybe later today if the rain lets up.
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Fitted the box at Asda on the way home. Popped the bonnet, took my box in, did a bit of shopping and then opened the bonnet on the way out. The wait ensured any residual charge in the common rail sensor socket was gone as per instructions (they say wait 5 mins after opening the bonnet and then locking the car back up).
Fitting was a cinch. Pop the plastic cover off the engine (it just pops off its 4 frictionally held pegs), find the common rail sensor socket at the left end of the common rail, pull the socket out (remembering to push the locking tab down as you do it otherwise it won't come off). Plug the corresponding 2 sockets (1 each of male and female) of the tuning box wiring strap onto the exposed male and female ends of the plug you just unplugged on the common rail assembly.
Similar thing with the air inlet box on the right side of the engine block (the socket is on the left of the air inlet box) - unplugging the plug from the socket (again pushing the locking tab down on the plug as you pull it out) and plugging the other end of the box wiring strap into the socket and plugging the now loose plug with the other part of the wiring strap. It takes literally 90 seconds. Then plug the box into the wiring strap and tighten up the finger screws. You're done. Start the engine up and make sure it's purring without any warning lights being thrown up. You then have to decide where you're going to use your cable ties to secure your wiring strap to existing hoses and then secure your box so it doesn't rattle. Another 90 seconds. Put the plastic engine cover back on - line up the oil filler cap, and press the 4 pegs down - all secure. You're done.
Can't take pics now. Didn't have the camera with me when I did it, and it started raining as soon as I got home. It looks pitch black now. Pics tomorrow - weather permitting. I left the box on it's default middle setting 4 of 7, supposedly the best blend of power and economy - primarily because I didn't have a small screwdriver on me to open the box and change the jumper settings.
On the drive home, I had 2 stops that I wouldn't normally make and the car indicated 43mpg (what it has been doing on the last few commutes except this morning when it cracked 47mpg). I didn't put my foot down much, but the car seemed to have more power with less throttle pressing.
Not exactly sure whether the indicated mpg will increase with this box. Will the car work out it's mpg based on what the pre-altered sensory signals sent from the ECU would say the quantity of fuel the car wants to use (1), or whether something meters actual usage irrespective of the sensory signals sent by the ECU which subsequently get altered by the box on the way to destination (2).
Scenario 1 would have the car thinking it is using more fuel than it may actually be using (if driven economically), so you could end up with the car saying it's almost empty when it actually has a gallon more than it thinks it has (based on 10% gains). Conversely, you could be hammering the car and it ends up with less in the tank than it thinks it has.
Scenario 2 would have "accurate" mpg readings (within accepted variances) and you would see the gains or losses associated with the box straight away.
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Looking good MH :smiley:
Will be interesting to hear your thoughts over the next few days once you've had a chance to drive it a bit more.
My experience with remapped cars is that the difference isn't always apparent pottering around at small throttle openings. It's only when you live with it a bit that you really get a feel for the improved performance.
In the name of scientific research will you be trying it on its maximum setting? :wink:
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I'm pleased the turbo sensor plug sounds just as easy to access as the fuel sensor. Now that its clear the box needn't be set up to the individual car, am going to call them tomorrow to see if I can just send mine back for the free upgrade :smiley:
Hope it stays dry enough for you to see what it's true capabilities are mate. Look forward to reading your thoughts.
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I'm pleased the turbo sensor plug sounds just as easy to access as the fuel sensor. Now that its clear the box needn't be set up to the individual car, am going to call them tomorrow to see if I can just send mine back for the free upgrade :smiley:
Hope it stays dry enough for you to see what it's true capabilities are mate. Look forward to reading your thoughts.
Aye, get it swapped out. They updated the "true" (corrected) figs on their website - 243PS/502Nm, a small gain over the single channel box, but perhaps smoother delivery or better economy gains to be had with the dual channel system. Were they just spinning you a line to dissuade you from changing the box out?
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Looking good MH :smiley:
Will be interesting to hear your thoughts over the next few days once you've had a chance to drive it a bit more.
My experience with remapped cars is that the difference isn't always apparent pottering around at small throttle openings. It's only when you live with it a bit that you really get a feel for the improved performance.
In the name of scientific research will you be trying it on its maximum setting? :wink:
Will keep it on medium setting for a week to see what the economy gains are when driving it "normally" - and get me closer to that magical 1000 miles (736 miles right now) before having a few "fun" days on the max setting next week.
I suppose I will have to brim it to see what the gains may be if the scenario of the MFD becoming inaccurate because it thinks more is getting used than is actually being used is true.
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Based on an abnormally high commute figure achieved yesterday, the jury is out on mpg gains based on this morning’s commute, the first one going to work with the box on.
I’m only counting the way to work in my comparisons, because the journey is constant – we always go directly to work, dropping off the wife 9 miles into my 12 mile journey.
The way home usually involves some kind of detour because the missus wants to go to x/y/z to see if they’ve got any a/b/c, and no two journeys are the same.
For going to work, since returning from my hols (Weds), the conditions have been the same – damp, dark and 10C ambient temp.
Thurs commute = 42.9mpg
Fri commute = 42.8mpg
Mon commute = 47.2mpg*
Tues commute = 47.2mpg
*I attributed Monday’s gain to having done a decent leg of dual carriageway driving at speed over the weekend maybe temporarily altering the car’s fuelling characteristics following that journey, Monday night’s commute home was quite thirsty – back down to about 43mpg, so the morning value did seem a blip.
Based on Thurs/Fri numbers and ignoring the Monday blip, we seem to have a 10% mpg gain over either day for this morning’s figures. Taking Thurs/Fri/Mon figures and averaging them, we see a 6.5% mpg gain. I did have a few blasts this morning, at points in the journey where the road speed jumped considerably e.g. joining 50/70mph dual carriageways from a 30 road, zipping straight up to cruising speed. Even on the middle setting the performance gains are noticeable with improved pick-up in 3rd/4th/5th/6th.
Any concrete gains seen in the MFD are assuming that the car is metering fuel use accurately, independently of the altered signals that the tuning box processes. I won’t know for sure that is happening until I fill up and see if the same disparity between MFD calculated mpg and actual mpg via brim method remains.
Looking to have some proper fun next week when I will probably crack 1000 miles.
It seems ridiculous to me that VW put out a global “one size fits all” map for each engine rather than one of a number of regionally specialised maps that should give everyone better mpg/performance. If you move out of your designated region, get the car’s ECU flashed officially to the appropriate map of the region you moved to (how often would that happen for most people?). They could easily do this. When my 170TDI MK5 was having DPF issues, the car was eventually given a service remap which improved mpg and reduced active regens from twice a week to almost zero.
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In brief if anyone is interested:
Fuel usage is calculated by the ecu using fuel pressure and injector opening time. These boxes work as a piggy back ecu altering boost pressure and fuel pressure to fool the car into providing more of each. Diesels have no throttle plate so power is regulated purely by the amount of juice that is squirted in. The box provides the car with a lowered fuel pressure value so the car increases the fuel pressure resulting in more fuel being squirted in. Similar situation with boost, a lowered boost pressure signal will delay the opening of the wastegate actuator resulting in raised boost pressure.
The indicated mpg will be higher than actual due to the increased fuel pressure.
Economy improvements will only come about through the ability to use lower revs due to increased torque. i.e each injector opening lets more fuel in but if there are less injector openings then there is the potential for fuel saving.
Hope that makes sense!
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Bruce:
Kind of makes sense, but I think you’re generalising with an accurate description of the way the £30 ebay specials work (just a box of resistors changing current applied to receiving sensors in a very unsophisticated way with no real signal processing) which just force more fuel through almost all of the time for extra power. With that explanation, all of these diesel boxes should cost coppers if they all work in the way you have described.
Given a tighter likely set of operating range parameters (temperature/humidity) for a regionally relevant map provided by ECU signal modification, are the better boxes not capable of providing a more efficient fuelling via different algorythm which will supposedly make the car run better than as per the “one size fits all” global map applied universally by VW, as a matter of course to push down fuel usage rather than just relying on higher gear usage with the higher torque?
There’s no way you’d see 10% fuel gains just relying on extra torque to stay in a higher gear, and my dad did see verified 10% fuel gains (brim method) on his old box fitted to the MK5. There aren’t that many situations where you’d rely on torque to stay artificially in a higher gear to maintain a speed. For a brief spurt of acceleration in 4th/5th/6th then yes, you might rely on the torque to avoid changing down briefly only to change up again later, but it’s not like you’d sit in 6th doing 1000rpm at 38mph because of the extra torque rather than change up to 6th at 40mph. Torque available outside the range that the turbo is doing it’s work is largely unusable in the higher gears that would get you your economy gains anyway.
These boxes are sold on noticeable mpg gains (if you’re not hooning around all the time) and have a 14 day trial.
I fully intend to test the box out to determine what gains are to be had. To be honest, I kind of hope that any mpg gains are invisible to the MFD due to mpg being calculated on the basis of the pre-alteration ECU signals, rather than physical metering of fuel volumes passing through a feed pipe in the fuel system. It would be a lot easier to see true gains. Say for example your MFD is known to be 5% optimistic and you are getting 50mpg indicated on the MFD, which should be a true 47.5mpg. Since using the box, you drive the same way and your 50mpg indicated is an actual 52.5mpg on the brim method – you have seen a 10.5% increase.
If any gains are invisible to the MFD then you have a rock-solid way of knowing if the box has given you any gains because a difference in your driving or conditions on any given trip is taken out of the equation. Your gains would always be a change in disparity between brim (actual) mpg and indicated mpg.
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Buddy: Have you filled up yet to know if you’ve seen any mpg gains (I appreciate you’ve set yours to the max and had a bit of fun with it, so mpg gains will probably be a minimum)?
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MH:
I was being somewhat simplistic with my explaination. These more advanced boxes do more than simply remove a fixed or % of voltage from the sensor value. There will be simple look up tables. Some even alude to rpm detection.
I have a fully programmable piggyback ecu on my petrol v8. This uses the signal from the crank postion sensor to provide a rpm reference and maf voltage to provide load which are the xy for a fuelling map which is adjusted by molesting the inlet air temp signal. These boxes have access to neither of these unless some sort of rpm detection is used. I could understand this if the sensors were fed from a 'dirty' DC supply but the DC supplied by the ecu is usually pretty clean.
Some interesting stuff here:
http://www.crdperformance.com/performance/diesel-tuning-boxes/
If I'm feeling particularly enthusiastic (and if I ever get my car!) I might hook the inputs and outputs to the box up to a storage scope and see exactly what it's doing compared with rpm.
If you read the small print on all the sites selling the boxes the mpg figures are usually compiled from customer feedback - which will be based on indicated mpg. They neglect to mention that this will read higher with the box.
Scientific tests are not that easy really especially with mpg improving with mileage. My last car took 15000 to sort itself out.
Great write ups by the way. I will be buying one of these boxes for the power gains but I've yet to be convinced about economy improvements. I'll be interested to see how you get on.
When I've done 10000 or so maybe i'll do 2k with the box and 2k without to compare consumption.
Another thought.....There are NOx and egr valve characteristics that will also be altered by these boxes due to increased fuelling - maybe there are efficiencies to be found there at the expense of emissions?
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If MFD indicated mpg bears no relation to actual fuel usage once one of these boxes is fitted, then brim vs indicated mpg should tell you gains (or losses) for having the box, independent of gains made purely by running in/miles on the car, as long as you knew what the disparity between reading and actual was before the box was fitted. This would mean that mpg is definitely worked out by fuel metering usage for the common rail system (but what about over-fuelling return from the injector system, pre-injection squirt? Is this taken into account when working out mpg).
If on the other hand, mpg is worked out by metering fuel volume permanently sent towards the common rail system, before it gets there, this would mean that the indicated mpg is accurately showing (taking usual indicated/actual disparity into account) what is actually being used post-box fitment.
There is potentially over-fuelling based not only on the DPF’s needs, but those for NOX and SOX. Maybe gains are made there somehow or the car normally overfuels to ensure similar performance the world over, despite climatic differences (which is what the box manufacturers would have you believe)?
Found a useful overview of the workings of the 2.0TDI CR unit (maybe a little out of date with current engine version improvements, this seems to be from 2008) which show metering of the fuel for the purposes of the injectors getting the right amount of fuel, but whether that metering is utilised to work out MFD indicated mpg, it doesn’t say. http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/VW%20Files/2-0-TDI-SSP.pdf (http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/VW%20Files/2-0-TDI-SSP.pdf)
Anyway, with a little bit of semi-scientific experimentation from me I think I’ll have a clear view of any gains if it is all in changes in the disparity between indicated MFD mpg and actual (brim) mpg in the next 5 to 7 days.
Would I put up with no gains at all in normal use? Probably not – it would be going back within 14 days. Could I put up with gains in normal use, but be prepared for modest extra thirst when I make use of that extra power? Probably.
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Photos as promised.
Engine bay post fitting, with system fitted.
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/monkeyhanger710/Coveredenginebay.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/monkeyhanger710/media/Coveredenginebay.jpg.html)
System fitted, cowling off. Red arrows are system plug-ins and green ones are original VW plugs, plugged into the wiring harness (left arrows from common rail sensor, right ones from the air intake sensor). Blue arrow is the box itself:-
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/monkeyhanger710/Arrowedconnections.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/monkeyhanger710/media/Arrowedconnections.jpg.html)
Common rail sensors up close, same arrow colour scheme:-
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/monkeyhanger710/Commonrailconnections.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/monkeyhanger710/media/Commonrailconnections.jpg.html)
Air intake sensors up close:-
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/monkeyhanger710/Intercoolerconnections.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/monkeyhanger710/media/Intercoolerconnections.jpg.html)
The box up close (box is blue), with wiring harness (yellow arrow):-
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/monkeyhanger710/Tuningboxandwiringharness.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/monkeyhanger710/media/Tuningboxandwiringharness.jpg.html)
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This morning's commute was 47.3mpg, driving it with a heavier foot than pre-box addition. Not a noticeable change on yesterday, but as it was 5C today and 10C yesterday on my commute to work, i'd consider it a very good result. I am starting to think that the box is giving me some noticeable mpg gains. I will know for sure when I top the tank back up next week then have a delve into the high end box settings.
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Buddy: Have you filled up yet to know if you’ve seen any mpg gains (I appreciate you’ve set yours to the max and had a bit of fun with it, so mpg gains will probably be a minimum)?
Brim to brim. Range said 5 miles but when I refilled it was only 45 litres to the brim so I wonder if the extra fuel signals are bypassing the mfd or the range computer is just overly prudent. Anyway managed 450miles and that was with a largely heavy right foot for this tank. Around 45mpg I think?
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Buddy: 45L = 9.825 Gallons, 450 miles done = an actual 45.8mpg. With a heavy right foot that is impressive. V-power or normal fuel?
I had 30 miles left on my first fill up (pre box addition) and got 43.69L in to fill it (414 miles/43.4mpg). If I’d taken it to “5 miles left” at the same mpg, I would’ve had to fill it with approx. 46.3L.
It would seem then that box on or box off, the car likes to still have at least 2/3 of a gallon left as a safeguard when it says it is empty (0 miles left). For that to be the same for you with box and for me without box, it suggests that either the box hasn’t changed your mpg appreciably either way because your heavier right foot has just wiped out gains seen the rest of the time, or that MFD mpg is worked out on actual fuel sent towards the common rail and not returned rather than being worked out on sensor signal on the common rail before the box alters it (this way would end up having the MFD understate actual, if gains were seen).
Did you take note of what mpg since fill-up was the MFD showing? If there’s about 5% disparity in the MFD display’s favour, I’d say actual fuel used is getting metered correctly to get the same disparity without the box attached. If the disparity is near zero or even if the MFD is under stating e.g. actual (brim) mpg is 45.8, but MFD says 45.2mpg, then it would suggest that MFD mpg is based on pre-box fuel usage signals and the box is making the car more efficient.
With V-power, pre-box addition I was getting 43.4mpg actual (brim method) on my first full tank. I suspect just using normal Shell it would’ve been 45/46mpg. On that basis and assuming you would have gotten the same pre box mpg as me, it seems that having a bit of a heavy right foot comes at little or no fuel penalty vs standard unboxed mpg.
Did you get sorted with the company for getting a dual channel box swap out?
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Short story with Buddy’s seems to be that he’s made full use of the box at max setting and is still making almost 46mpg with less than 1500 miles on the clock. My Scirocco would’ve been making the same around the doors with a heavy right foot and 170PS to play with instead of (on paper at least) 239PS (indicated 50/51mpg, actual 45/46mpg). 40% more power on tap and same mpg seems a canny deal to me.
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Yep spoke to Steve at tdi tuning today. He's cool for me to send mine back for reflashing, a dual channel cable and it would go back out to me with UPS the same day. He reiterated that a bespoke set up in chelmsford allows them to tailor the set up to the individual car but that they are now sending them straight out with typical settings. Fair play.
It's going to be a limp couple of days while I'm waiting for the new delivery.
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Yep spoke to Steve at tdi tuning today. He's cool for me to send mine back for reflashing, a dual channel cable and it would go back out to me with UPS the same day. He reiterated that a bespoke set up in chelmsford allows them to tailor the set up to the individual car but that they are now sending them straight out with typical settings. Fair play.
It's going to be a limp couple of days while I'm waiting for the new delivery.
So basically the single channel box is capable of dual channel processing with the dual channel lead? We see this all the time when things like a £50 calculator has the same electronic architecture as a £15 from the same manufacturer, but the £15 one has a raft of features disabled to justify the higher price tag on the £50 one.
Last night and this morning were a little poor with mpg due to a regen happening, not massively poor - 44.7 mpg this morning as opposed to 47.3mpg (all indicated figures).
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Interested to know what you feel the traction is like with the extra torque. It was extremely wet tonight and I really struggled to get any power down without the traction control stopping me in my tracks. I presume there is an adverse affect on grip on first but would like to know if significant.
Cheers!
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Interested to know what you feel the traction is like with the extra torque. It was extremely wet tonight and I really struggled to get any power down without the traction control stopping me in my tracks. I presume there is an adverse affect on grip on first but would like to know if significant.
Cheers!
For me it seems that low end power for moving off doesn't seem any better than stock, but 3rd to 6th is where the difference is to be seen. Bridgestone tyres I presume? Mine are sh!te on initial grip in the damp too - plenty of tramping if you give it more than half throttle on initial pull-away. Bear in mind though that I only have my box on medium setting right now. I'm driving the car as it was driven without the box (with the odd incursion into the extra power) right now to see if there are any genuine mpg gains to be made. On the assumption that MFD mpg calculations are being made by the common rail sensor before the box changes it's signal sent to the injectors, I am expecting to see a 5% deficit between actual mpg and MFD indicated mpg to turn around to zero or even 5% above MFD readings if there are any genuine savings to be made.
I am noticing right now that the car seems to have a bit more low end torque. but sometimes it is asking me (MFD gear change prompts) to drop a gear vs what the unaltered car would have wanted. This happens especially in 5th wanting to drop to 4th when maintaining 32mph, or 4th wanting to drop to 3rd when maintaining 25mph. Sometimes even wants to drop from 3rd to 2nd at 18-20mph.
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Yeah bridgestones. I've found the grip to be great in the dry but was really surprised by just how little I had, especially in first, in the wet.
Decided to leave the car until 1500 miles or so before going with the tuning box. I totally agree that it feels a bit limp in 5th and 6th, but I am not sure how much this is down to being a brand new engine or whether the gearing is actually set up like this.
As an aside, I kind of think this why fuel consumption might not be as expected. Common sense would suggest that being in a higher gear would burn less fuel. I went a drive last night, sitting with the MFD on 'average fuel consumption'. Really noticeable that any acceleration from a higher gear at relatively slow speeds kills the average, purely down to having the tap open for longer.
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Bridgestones do seem to be the common factor in GTD tramping, for those of us experiencing it. I do feel that they’ve impeded the low end performance a little by fitting these over another brand. They seem worse on a damp road than a properly wet road with laying water. I’m sure you’d get short shrift from a dealer complaining that the tyres are compromising the car and therefore you want them swapped under warranty, even though I am envious of those who got Continentals (and less so – Pirellis). That supposed “anti-tramping” feature touted on the GTD brochure doesn’t seem to work for Bridgestone shod GTDs.
The gearing in 6th doesn’t feel any taller than on my 170TDI Scirocco (about 2200rpm/80mph), but as standard 5th and 6th feel a lot more limp on the GTD. It may be down to the way the power is delivered (it’s a lot smoother on the GTD, but the Scirocco feels racier by being a little more savage – I sometimes miss that). It is a lot more rapid when you look at the dials progressing than it actually feels.
Agree that sitting in a really high gear and putting your foot down is bad for consumption. Sitting in a high gear and wavering by a few mph is fine, but A short burst of hard acceleration to get to cruising speed is more economical than 5x as long for moderate acceleration to reach the same cruising speed. When you can see your instant mpg dip from 55 to 10 for 2 seconds, it’s got to be better than seeing it dip from 55 to 30 for 10 seconds. To be honest I never seem to do anything with 5th but sit between 30 and 40 mph. As long as you’re economical with the rest of your driving to preserve your momentum (anticipating traffic and approaching roundabouts etc), getting up to speed quickly is as economical as getting there over a longer period with less acceleration, if not more economical.
I’ll accelerate in 2nd or 3rd to get up to 30-40mph and then sit in 5th, I’ll accelerate in 3rd or 4th above 30mph to then slot it in 6th at my reached my desired cruise speed that is at least 40mph but could be as high as 80. If I’m sat in 6th at any less than 60mph, I would knock it down to 4th to accelerate quickly, but I wouldn’t drop to 5th. It’s a cruising gear only. 60-80mph, if I need to accelerate, I’ll generally leave it in 6th.
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Just spoke to my dad about his experiences with the TDI-tuning box on the old MK5 170TDI GT. I especially wanted to know whether the discrepancy between indicated and actual mpg changed with the box on, due to MPG assumed to be calculated with the original (pre box-altered) signals to the common rail sensor. I would expect in that case for discrepancy to change in actual's favour so that MFD indicated mpg was closer to actual (brim method).
He said the indicated/actual discrepancy didn't change on his - both values saw gains with the box fitted.
This seems to indicate to me that MFD mpg isn't calculated by the common rail sensor, but by some other method, like an earlier sensor metering fuel volume permanently passed towards the common rail unit.
Or it could mean that by a "feedback" situation, the discrepancy is maintained e.g. box makes car more economical under light/mid loading and therefore less fuel is officially asked for maintaining the discrepancy between indicated and actual. Making the car more economical under light/mid loading should be happening by one of 2 ways or a combination of the 2:-
Increased torque means sitting in a higher gear than would otherwise be the case. Doubtful this would have much of an effect unless you spend a lot of your time at a threshold speed e.g. sat at 30mph in 5th instead of 4th more often, or car sat in 6th at 40mph more often. Can't see massive gains being got here.
Slightly higher injection pressure due to the box modified signals ends up with a more efficient spray pattern than the standard VW set-up, with better atomisation of the fuel in the fuel/air mix. Result would be higher mpg, higher torque and fewer DPF regens as fuel is more completely converted to water and carbon dioxide in the combustion process - making less soot. Could it really be the case that the VW set up of the injectors isn't optimal? Maybe they're governed by a huge "safe" pressure margin, or maybe VW are trying to ensure the injectors last as long as the engine.
There could be a third option. Maybe the box does feck all positively or negatively for indicated or actual mpg when you haven't been tapping much into the power gains whilst you objectively try to judge the mpg gains by driving it pretty much as you did without the box on.
I am almost up to my 180ish miles (as I did without the box) to top back up and see what actual mpg I get.
I will then do a few days with the box at the top end to check out the performance gains. If appreciably better performance comes at too high a fuel cost or driving sensibly shows no mpg gains for me then it'll be going back.
One funny thing I have noticed - yesterday I nipped out at lunch to shoot down the A1 to Costco. I took a colleague with me who's been desperate to sit in the car on a trip. I gave it a quick blast of hardish acceleration once it was warm, a few times. Going down to Costco (mainly flat and downhill) I achieved an indicated 49 mpg for the 7 mile journey. On the way back there is a wickedly steep slip-road from Scotswood road up to the A1 - it's about 3/4 of a mile long and 25% gradient. I pushed the car quite hard up to 70mph to demonstrate the rapid progress even up a hill like that. I could've got up a lot higher than 70mph, but there's a bit of a bend near the top which I wouldn't like to take any higher than 70mph. Accelerated again to 80mph on the straight when joining the A1 and then back to work. Was surprised to see that driving it quite hard didn't seem to have much of a penalty on the indicated value - 46.9mpg for the trip overall, much better than my average indicated since fill up.
Just wondering whether a quick burst on a hot run really helps clear the DPF passively, pushing up your mpg.
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Cheers for the pictures MH, it really does look straight forward to install. I'd feel confident doing it and I'm inept at working with cars haha.
You planning on cranking it up to the max setting at all? Or you happy with it on the middle one?
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Cheers for the pictures MH, it really does look straight forward to install. I'd feel confident doing it and I'm inept at working with cars haha.
You planning on cranking it up to the max setting at all? Or you happy with it on the middle one?
Well my middle setting mpg experiment is almost over - Mon/tues next week i'll be topping my tank back up, seeing what it did on the fuel economy and then having a few days at high power before deciding whether to keep it. I will also see what the legit insurance implications are as mid-week i'll be within a month of my renewal.Will try Adrian Flux (there was a card for them in the box). I have a £264 price with esure for the standard set-up.
You soon get used to the extra torque/power. In my mind right now I can't appreciate the gains because i'm used to them, but I know that taking the box off will leave me feeling underwhelmed with the standard set-up.
It is a doddle to fit. 90 second plug in.
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Well the TDI-tuning.co.uk mpg in middle mode experiment is over. I have tried to limit the variables as much as possible.
I ran out pretty much all the standard fuel that came with the car to empty. It then had a full tank of V-power which was ran through. Then I did a “control” fuel usage of around 183 miles and then topped up with V-power to see what standard usage was. I then ran the TDI-tuning box on for 223 miles and topped up last night, again with V-power. My actual (brim) mpg vs indicated has been all over the place for the 3 times I have filled up:-
Full tank 1 = 42.4mpg actual vs 46.5mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 9.7%
Top up 1 (control) = 42.5mpg actual vs 44.0mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 3.5%
Top up 2 (tuning box) = 42.3mpg actual vs 45.3mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 7.1%
What I can say between approx. 120 miles (when the “free” fuel was used up) and 950 miles is that my actual mpg has remained pretty constant (variance either side of mean is 0.2%), even though the indicated mpg has been all over the place between 3.5% and 9.7%. This means that my car hasn’t improved at all in actual mpg, whether this is due to my driving it a little harder as the miles go on negating any gains that would be seen in driving it exactly the same way remains to be seen.
I kept my use of V-power throughout so that there weren’t any filling discrepancies e.g. different foaming characteristics causing the first click to full to come in earlier or later. Also using the same fuel throughout ensures that any gains/losses seen are attributable to the car alone and not due in any way to fuel differences causing changes to mpg. I suspect that I will achieve better mpg by switching back to normal Shell Diesel, but wanted to appraise the effects of the box on mpg thoroughly, so stuck to V-power.
My driving style is fairly sensible – I get up to whatever speed I am trying to attain quickly with moderately hard acceleration and then stay there. Once up to speed I am very economical in my driving style – I anticipate the traffic ahead well (looking well beyond the car in front – unless it is a van) and allow the car to decelerate as much as possible when needing to slow down because traffic ahead is slowing, approaching roundabouts and junctions etc. I would normally expect to get good mpg with my style of driving.
I know that once the box was on (top up 2), I was accelerating a little harder than I had been, to get up to speed, but otherwise the rest of my drive was as normal. For this I seem to have suffered no mpg penalty or any modest running in gains that I would’ve seen have been wiped out by the box.
It was nice to have that extra power on tap with the box in its middle setting (4 of 7) – supposedly the balance between power and economy. If power increase is linear between settings 1 and 7, and the boasted 243PS top output is to be believed then setting 4 should have been putting out about 213PS. I could certainly tell the difference between the box and stock power, but the power comes in linearly with the pedal – the extra power is easy to control, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The car seems to pull no differently than stock below 1500rpm. It seemed to me that the boxed car was at least as potent with the pedal down to just before the “kickdown” click as stock is with the accelerator pedal buried into the carpet.
After filling up last night I put the car into setting 7 of 7. The road was slightly damp and my Bridgestone tyres are sh!te in the damp. I tried to give the car a quick blast up the coast road for a junction. There is a certain road sign that I used as a marker. I accelerate off the filter lane and see what speed I can get to as I pass the sign. In my old 140TDI PD MK5 Golf this was 70mph, MK5 170TDI PD = 80mph, Scirocco 140TDI CR = 78mph and Scirocco 170TDI CR (which fully ran in felt every bit as fast as my GTD is now without box) = 83mph.
Consider that it is damp and I have Bridgestones. I accelerated quite hard (but being cautious) in 3rd. As I got a bit braver but still respecting the fact I have tyres that are sh!te in the damp, I pressed a little harder – wheelspin in 3rd at 65mph, traction control kicking in and I was nowhere near the sign. I backed right off the power and changed to 4th, passing the sign at about 80mph. I would’ve easily nailed 90 on a dry day or with better tyres.
This morning I did my daily commute and I was using a lot less accelerator pedal travel due to the extra power available. My indicated mpg for the journey was an unusually high 48.9mpg. I did a few spurts of acceleration more than I normally would’ve done. If I’d been a bit more sensible 50mpg was easily within reach. Of course I expect that the difference between actual and indicated to have opened up even further and the actual is probably still around 42.5mpg.
So I have a bit of a dilemma. A box that gives you more power on tap (a lot more power) and if used sensibly will not cost you any appreciable extra in fuel. Don’t forget though that I also have the death-trap Bridgestones. If I were to try and make the most out of the box in anything but the dry with my tyres, I would do myself (and my car) a serious injury. I have all that extra power available yet VWs poor choice of tyres for my car will see me unable to use half of it safely. Is the box really worth it for me while I still have my Bridgestones?
I consider these tyres to be unfit for purpose because even without the box on, they are atrocious in the damp. The so called “anti tramping” feature does not work with Bridgestones. Without the box, anything more than 40% throttle to pull away from a busy roundabout or junction in the damp will have you spinning on the spot and thumping the road with your front wheels. Give it more than 60% throttle doing 12-15mph in second and again you will start to spin and the traction control will be working overtime. I can’t see myself getting anywhere with VW warranty by claiming the tyres are unfit for purpose due to poor grip in the wet. It’s like they’ve taken an Olympic sprinter and given him slippers to run in! I feel aggrieved that to get my car to perform optimally and safely (without the box), I will need to shell out for at least a pair of alternative tyres on the fronts. If these tyres are sh!te on a damp road, I’m sure they will perform a lot worse as the temperature drops and the compound is even harder and less yielding in use.
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Thanks for the detailed report MH. Sounds like there's quite a step up in power from setting 4 to 7?
So, will you be keeping the box? :cool:
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Keep it!
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Yeah, quite a step up in power from setting 4 to 7 – it’s a pity that fear of losing grip with my crappy Bridgestones in the damp stops me from realistically using more than what is available to me on setting 4.
Just wondering if it is coincidence that I had my first regen in 600 miles within 40 miles of ramping up to setting 7.
Buddy – have you noticed more regens on setting 7?
Just got to work and unplugged the box (but left it in situ) and refitted the original plugs – will see how the car drives tonight and tomorrow without it now that I have experienced the extra power. It’ll probably be going back unless Adrian Flux give me a quote within £70 of my lowest quote on comparethemarket.com, or if stock output now feels really poor.
With the actual mpg not changing and the indicated mpg going up when you up the power, I think the only thing getting bigger is the discrepancy between how much fuel the car is using and how much power the car thinks it is using because you are using less throttle on a more powerful delivery, but the car is using more fuel for that throttle travel with the box when compared to without. MFD mpg definitely seems to be calculated at the common rail sensor whose input the box is altering. Moral of the story – listen to Bruce.
The opportunity I have to really let fly with that extra power on my commute is almost nil (busy roads that seem to flow nicely, but not particularly quickly), and with my sh!tty grip Bridgestone tyres that is probably no bad thing.
I think the thing I find most weird with the GTD with stock power is that even with 30Nm torque more than my Scirocco, it seems less eager to just pull on the torque – it wants to be revved through the gears more, as if that torque is available only if the turbo has had a good run already because it has been through the gears. When the car has been sitting at 1800rpm in 6th at 60mpg and you put your foot down, it seems to have less pull than my Scirocco would have in the same situation or than putting your foot down at 1800rpm in 6th after changing up from 4th through a run of acceleration. Maybe the engine is still very tight at 980 miles and that will change. My Scirocco loosened off a lot at 320 miles/500Km as if it had been on some kind of running in program and the mpg didn’t appreciably increase since.
Sometimes I am a bit too sensible for my own good! I definitely scrutinise every detail.
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Haven’t tried Sky insurance yet, but given that the TDI-tuning.co.uk box came with a card for Adrian Flux and my insurance is due for renewal next month anyway, I thought I’d give them a look for a quote with declared box to see what the damage is.
Best comparison site result for me is £265 (£250 total excess) for standard unmodified GTD, with protected no claims (12 years no claims) and the 3 points I acquired this year.
Adrian Flux said they couldn’t get near that without the box, but with the box declared they come in at £375 (£500 total excess). From that I got the impression that the box didn’t add much to their standard unmodified prices.
So the price for staying legal for me is £110 a year to get an extra 59PS on tap which I have hardly made use of – about what I was thinking it would be. Quite reasonable, considering the next best comparison quote after Esure and Sheila’s Wheels is around £335 without the box.
Will have to think hard tonight and tomorrow morning whether I’m that appreciative of the extra power now I have disconnected the box to be keeping it and paying £110 for the privilege.
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Haven’t tried Sky insurance yet, but given that the TDI-tuning.co.uk box came with a card for Adrian Flux and my insurance is due for renewal next month anyway, I thought I’d give them a look for a quote with declared box to see what the damage is.
Best comparison site result for me is £265 (£250 total excess) for standard unmodified GTD, with protected no claims (12 years no claims) and the 3 points I acquired this year.
Adrian Flux said they couldn’t get near that without the box, but with the box declared they come in at £375 (£500 total excess). From that I got the impression that the box didn’t add much to their standard unmodified prices.
So the price for staying legal for me is £110 a year to get an extra 59PS on tap which I have hardly made use of – about what I was thinking it would be. Quite reasonable, considering the next best comparison quote after Esure and Sheila’s Wheels is around £335 without the box.
Will have to think hard tonight and tomorrow morning whether I’m that appreciative of the extra power now I have disconnected the box to be keeping it and paying £110 for the privilege.
Have you tried quotes from any other insurance companies with the box including your current insurer?
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Have you tried quotes from any other insurance companies with the box including your current insurer?
My current insurer wants £358 for my GTD without mods for my impending renewal. Will they add the box for less than £17 to match Adrian Flux? No chance. The next cheapest insurers after esure for me are all within £40 of my Adrian Flux modded quote without the box. Adding the box for a 32% increase in power for only £40 just isn’t going to happen.
The Adrian Flux price is coppers more than my unmodded 170TDI Scirocco was last year (£360, before I got my 3 points). I will try Sky Insurance. But mod-unfriendly insurance firms are going to do no better than Adrian Flux. Esure won’t touch anything with more than a 20% gain (which might be why some other boxes are only quoting 215PS output) If I was wanting to keep the box that much then I’d take the £110 hit for declaring it.
I’ll probably make my mind up tonight about keeping it or not. I’ll be coming home tonight at around 9pm on a relatively quiet dual carriageway road to be able to see if I’m happy with the stock output. I have not gotten any actual mpg gains with this box, just more optimistic indicated mpg. The power increase cannot be denied, it is colossal, but the super-cautious side of me says VW didn’t design this engine as it stands, to withstand an extra 32% output - certainly not the turbo, unless it is bigger than the one in the MK6GTD/Scirocco 170TDI.
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Just had the Adrian Flux docs emailed to me with my offer of cover/quotation.
The £375 quote includes 2 optional £15 add-on policies for lost keys and personal accident payout cover. On the assumption I can remove these (which certainly seems to be the case), then the cover drops to £345 – a mere £80 more than my Esure quote, and £45 of that is admin fee/commission.
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Just had the Adrian Flux docs emailed to me with my offer of cover/quotation.
The £375 quote includes 2 optional £15 add-on policies for lost keys and personal accident payout cover. On the assumption I can remove these (which certainly seems to be the case), then the cover drops to £345 – a mere £80 more than my Esure quote, and £45 of that is admin fee/commission.
That's not too bad then. I wouldn't worry too much about the tolerance level of the engine with the additonal bhp and torque. Generally, these engines tend to be detuned by manufacturers when they come out the factory so an increase of 60bhp or so should still comfortably be within safe operating perameters.
As you say, you probably need to see how it now feels after reverting back to standard to get an idea as to whether you think you are going to miss that extra performance or not.
I had a brief look at insurance quotes with my current insurer (Admiral) and noted that although they allowed you to select the option of a 25% plus increase in bhp, as soon as you clicked it they withdrew their quote.
If i was going for a box i think i would stick to one that was under 20% gains as i couldnt be bothered with the hassle of trying to find a specialist insurance company let alone the likely considerable increase in price
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Presumably the additional load on the clutch due to the extra torque needs consideration too ? Does anyone know what the clutch is rated too ?
Not sure. 6 speed DSG is rated for 450Nm I read somewhere, the manual clutch has to be more resilient than that.
Didn't get a chance to put my foot down on the way home (to really feel what "normal" feels again) tonight @8:30. Just as I was getting past the last speed camera in the 50mph zone to get to the 70mph zone and put my foot down - a police car joins the coast road and nigh-on follows me home so I had to be good.
For the sedate drive I was having, the only thing I really noticed was having to give a lot more throttle to achieve the same effect in anything more than minimal acceleration. Hopefully I get a chance on the way to work to put my foot down on the coast road to get past the marker sign that I could pass at 83mph in the Scirocco.
Tomorrow is decision time. I will need to have made my mind up for it going back and contact the sellers to arrange return. Right now my GTD with 1006 miles on still feels tight as a drum compared to the old Scirocco when it hit 320 miles/500Km and became a bit of an animal.
Adrian Flux is a lot cheaper than Sky insurance for adding the box and declaring it.
As for components - i'm a lot more concerned about the turbo longevity than the clutch longevity.
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MH: not sure about regens. How would I know, is it obvious?
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MH: not sure about regens. How would I know, is it obvious?
You'd notice the regens most by seeing that the car is idling at 1000rpm when stopped at a roundabout or junction rather than 800rpm. Your indicated mpg would take a dip too.
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Never got the chance to test the marker mph out this morning. Where has all the extra traffic come from? Been leaving for work 10 mins earlier than was the norm and there are about 30% more cars. Flow is good, but it’s hard to get the opportunity to do more than 60-70mph.
The lack of box is noticeable today, but not massively so in the conditions I have been driving in that would have limited my use of the extra power. I think the biggest thing I have noticed with the stock GTD is that it feels a little laggy compared to my Scirocco. The turbo on the 170TDI Scirocco was always ready to go and seemed to pull more strongly in the upper gears than the GTD – you seem to have to work your way through the gears a lot more on the GTD to get the most out of it. Put your foot down in 6th after being sat in that gear and that speed and nothing seems to happen for a short while. Work your way through the gears and change to 6th at 60mph to carry on accelerating and the car acts completely differently.
Economy this morning was abysmal. I didn’t even crack 44mpg indicated. Chances are though it probably wasn’t far off my consistent actual mpg of 42.3-42.5mpg that I have achieved on every fill up.
Really struggling to decide whether to keep the box or not, even though it seems more and more difficult to be driving in a situation where I can take advantage of the extra power as my commute gets busier.
Apart from the car feeling more solidly built and slightly better equipment (most notably the Xenons), I think I’m missing the Scirocco that I could hammer all day and get an easy indicated 50mpg.
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maybe something wrong with you gtd? Mine definitely isnt laggy and feels spritely and lively. Different power delivery to the 170 engine but i still think its far superior.
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maybe something wrong with you gtd? Mine definitely isnt laggy and feels spritely and lively. Different power delivery to the 170 engine but i still think its far superior.
If my mpg was considerably worse than most here who have been using V-power, I would definitely think my GTD was defective as potential performance and mpg go hand in hand.
It just doesn’t seem as willing as the Scirocco was – it will get the same performance, but with a lot more throttle being used. It could be that the extra refinement of the GTD blunts my perception of the performance.
Maybe my GTD is still extremely tight. I don’t really delve into the clicky zone of the pedal as it feels a bit weird for me to do so, maybe then I’m restricting myself to only ¾ throttle.
Maybe I had a Scirocco at the high end of the natural variation between engines and have a GTD at the mid to low end? I definitely haven’t felt my GTD loosen up in the same way as the Scirocco did. On the other hand I haven’t really pushed it too hard in a vain attempt to increase my mpg to “reasonable” levels (I’m thinking about 50mpg actual, on average).
Still haven’t made my mind up about the box, £80 on my insurance doesn’t seem that high a price to pay for the extra performance even if higher mpg isn’t in the equation.
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It sounds like you're already noticing the difference without the box mate, and surely with having to press harder on the throttle for longer it'll worsen your MPG. £80 is not a lot at all over the course of the year, plus you've already made the outlay for the box.
As soon as I can get the cash together I'll be installing one in mine. Although will need to check with Admiral first about the implications.
Thanks for keeping this thread updated with such detail. Think you, mcmaddy and I should organise a meet up if you do keep the box to see how much faster the box is ;)
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It sounds like you're already noticing the difference without the box mate, and surely with having to press harder on the throttle for longer it'll worsen your MPG. £80 is not a lot at all over the course of the year, plus you've already made the outlay for the box.
As soon as I can get the cash together I'll be installing one in mine. Although will need to check with Admiral first about the implications.
Thanks for keeping this thread updated with such detail. Think you, mcmaddy and I should organise a meet up if you do keep the box to see how much faster the box is ;)
You might have to change insurers to get the box if Admiral don't like you having the box. Brokers are generally the way to go with mods. Get your lowest quote on a comparison site without and then get brokers to come as close to that as possible. If it ends up doubling your premium you might think twice about having it (or declaring it).
Less throttle used with the box doesn't mean less fuel used as it uses more fuel at any given throttle pedal travel than without the box. The delivery of the whole stock throttle range seems squeezed into the first 3/4 of the throttle when you have the box on, with much more power to extract beyond. The box makes a hell of a difference to your power and torque, but no mpg gains using it normally, in my case.
Maybe I need to treat my GTD a little meaner. I hoofed it home today and literally lost 1mpg (indicated) for my troubles vs taking it easy yesterday. Driving a bit meaner might keep the active DPF regens at bay by raising your exhaust temp for a larger proportion of your journey.
If I saw the mpg increases their website claims trade on, I wouldn't even think about sending it back.
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Definitely think treating it mean is the way forward. I've been pootling home in Eco mode, getting about 46mpg. Today I thought I'd go for a bit of a blast in Sport mode, and managed to get 47mpg. Go figure.
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I haven't really gone over 3000rpm yet although it's been very tempting. nearly 700 miles on it now so over the next two to three weeks will be giving it some more beans to see what it's like.
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To be fair I think most the power comes between 2-3000rpm anyway and after that it starts to die out so don't think you're missing out on too much
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Definitely need to get it up over 3000rpm, not all the time though. I have been treating the car a bit meaner (only when the oil is warm) over the last few days and not seeing my mpg suffer as a result. My Scirocco definitely benefitted from not being babied early on. It felt a lot more powerful than the 170PS it officially was.
I asked TDI-tuning.co.uk for a return authorisation on their box. With my sh!tty Bridgestones not being able to put any more power than stock down in the damp and no true mpg gains seen, i'm not really bothered enough to want to keep it and pay £80 a year extra on my insurance for the privilege.
I was very complimentary about the box's power increases, but said I just wasn't seeing any true mpg gains and this was my main motivation for buying the box. They want me to discuss this on the phone where i'm sure they'll advise me to stick it on setting 1 and see what happens. Don't see the point of that, 8PS increase over stock and possible small mpg gains for the privilege of paying £530 over 3 years between the box and insurance enhancements - the box would have to give me 12% mpg gains to pay for itself.
Thanks for your email. We are sorry to hear you are not happy with the improvements on your tuning box, we are very saddened to hear this but we are very confident we can get this resolved for you so that you start getting performance and economy gains. Please could you give us a call so we can discuss this further.
The only way I could see them being able to improve anything would be to give my car a custom set of maps tailored to my car, which would mean driving it all the way down to Essex so they could make the changes.
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Just spoke to TDI-tuning about the return of my box. They want to bring it back for “tweaks” to the on-board maps. They say they can get me noticeable mpg increases by tailoring the box to my driving style if I give them a description of how I drive, what road speeds I generally encounter etc. This is apparently the next best thing to them physically having the car there at the place.
The guy had plenty of patter about how these normally go out on the standard maps and work wonders on both performance and mpg. I just can’t see the mpg gains happening even though I see huge performance gains.
He’s going to allow me a further 2 weeks to appraise the tweaked product after I have sent it back and he has returned it to me, but I really think I’m wasting my time expecting actual mpg gains. I’m convinced most people reporting higher mpg from the use of these boxes are just reporting MFD readings that get ever more optimistic as the ECU underestimates what fuel is actually being used.
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I don't profess to knowing much about how these boxes work but i would have thought that the outcome you are looking for (i.e. greater performance with significantly increased mpg) is not possible. Surely in order to achieve good performance gains the engine is going to have to ignite the petrol/diesel much quicker (not very technical) which is going to have a detrimental impact on economy.
It seems that your overriding priority is an increase in mpg so perhaps you should try the box on the lowest setting and see what impact this has. It may be that the gains are so great that the box does make sense to hold on to.
However, i was under the impression that the vast majority of people buy these boxes for the increased performance gains and provided it doesn't have a huge impact upon mpg then its doing its job successfully :smiley:
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They do adverise both mpg and performance increases (not at the same time). Drive sensibly and you should see an increase in mpg, make use of the extra power and you won’t. I wasn’t making use of the extra power in my experimentation week and saw my actual mpg stay static – pointless. Indicated mpg went up as actual fuel usage and the ECU’s presumed usage were 2 different measures. If I was getting an actual 50mpg around the doors as I expected then I would be happy to make use of the extra power at a slight economy penalty.
The only way I know that you get more power on tap and more mpg together is to make the car more efficient with any given quantity of fuel. I really believe now that all these boxes can do (even the sophisticated 2 channel ones) is chuck more fuel in per injection cycle and increase boost pressure slightly to up your performance. If they can’t make for a more efficient burn (more efficient homogenisation of fuel and air) then they aren’t going to use any less fuel, but could falsely increase the MFD indicated mpg.
Why am I even giving this another go by just sending the box back for reprogramming at my expense rather than getting my money back? If you are only interested in power increases then don’t let me put you off, the gains there are amazing (more than my Bridgestones can handle in the wet).
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That'd be a shame MH but you've generously shared your reasons and in your case, I can't disagree with your rationale. I've yet to send mine back for a dual channel swap out. My single channel unit has been on top whack for a while now and if anything the power delivery has improved slightly more.
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I know people say it's a waste of time but over the last 2 days I've had the car in eco mode while doing my usual work trip. mpg is better than in normal mode so I'll leave it on for a few more days around town and see what happens.
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Eco did nowt for me - just ended up pressing the throttle harder to get it to do the same thing. It seems to only dull the throttle response rather than make the car run on a more efficient map. If you were using your aircon then it would make a difference because it would ensure your aircon was i eco mode. If you had DSG you might find yourself freewheeling in neutral to save fuel too. I run on individual with everything set to Sport except aircon which is set to eco. Your mpg increase might have something to do with switching from V-power to standard Shell. I will definitely have to switch.
Will be interested to see what the tweaked box will feel like when TDI-tuning send it back (posted it yesterday, should arrive there Monday).
My performance measurement done last night on an empty Coast road. Passed the marker signpost at 79mph. My 170TDI Scirocco passed it at 83mph, and the 140TDI Scirocco before that passed at 78mph. :shocked: Do I have a 160PS GTD or did I have a 190PS Scirocco? Maybe it's the V-power, as previous VWs were run on standard Shell.
After that i'm again quite serious about keeping the box just to have a car that actually performs better than the last one despite already supposedly having a 15PS advantage.
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Eco did nowt for me - just ended up pressing the throttle harder to get it to do the same thing. It seems to only dull the throttle response rather than make the car run on a more efficient map. If you were using your aircon then it would make a difference because it would ensure your aircon was i eco mode. If you had DSG you might find yourself freewheeling in neutral to save fuel too. I run on individual with everything set to Sport except aircon which is set to eco. Your mpg increase might have something to do with switching from V-power to standard Shell. I will definitely have to switch.
Will be interested to see what the tweaked box will feel like when TDI-tuning send it back (posted it yesterday, should arrive there Monday).
My performance measurement done last night on an empty Coast road. Passed the marker signpost at 79mph. My 170TDI Scirocco passed it at 83mph, and the 140TDI Scirocco before that passed at 78mph. :shocked: Do I have a 160PS GTD or did I have a 190PS Scirocco? Maybe it's the V-power, as previous VWs were run on standard Shell.
After that i'm again quite serious about keeping the box just to have a car that actually performs better than the last one despite already supposedly having a 15PS advantage.
MH - have you tried setting the ACC to ECO for any length of time to see if it improves your mpg at all? Mine is always set to ECO and it feels smoother to me when changing speed - and hence may possibly be a bit more efficient? Just a thought...
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Skinnee D: By what do you mean ACC (there are so many acronyms, and that one has more than one designation)? I assume you mean adaptive cruise control. I don't use the cruise control, I don't consider cruise an economical way of driving and haven't been on a long trip (50+ miles one way in one stint) to even be tempted to set it.
If there is anything i've "done wrong" in the running of the car to get decent mpg, I suspect that it might be in the use of V-power Diesel. I have suspected since the last full tank that it's not as potent as regular Shell, but have stuck with it to give the car's consumption a baseline to see losses or gains made with the tdi-tuning box on.
My dad uses the cruise, and with the DSG (which he has), speed recovery following the car in front slowing down is epically slow in eco mode - it frustrated the hell out of him. He's averaging a true 48mpg (indicated 50/52) right now on regular diesel, which is 13% better than mine, when on paper his car (DSG) should be 10% thirstier like-for-like. He does have 6k miles on now and has seen modest gains. He also adds about 100mL Redex to every tank (it's cheap in Costco), not so much for the clean-up claims, but for the other additives that up the Cetane (Alkyl nitrates, aromatic compounds etc). He has been doing it for years now and hasn't stopped for the MK7. It didn't affect his MK5 170TDI's DPF operation at all.
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I never really turn the climate control off and when I do it doesn't make that much difference worth shooting about. the point with eco mode is not to blast around in it and expect increased mpg's. eco is perfect for town driving where you don't need any speed, then when you get out of town change to something else. maybe having yours permanently in sport mode is damaging your mpg's?
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Had to do a part fill at a motorway service stop this week so put in exactly 20 litres rather than fill up at those prices. Anyway filled to the brim again yesterday and that was 46 litres.
Total of 66 litres got me 685 miles.
14.58 gallons. So 47 mpg.
Quite a lot of motorway, using ACC more often than not (set to ECO). Plus some around town stuff.
The tuning box as I mentioned above has been in top setting for a while and the car has over 2.2k on it now. It seems to me that a combination of the car loosening up and the ecu calibrating itself to my driving characteristics with the box on has resulted in slightly improved power/torque delivery. V pleased with the extra beans!
MH: how much was the return postage mate? Did you use standard Royal mail? I am still planning to send mine back for the dual channelIt sounds like you're already noticing the difference without the box mate, and surely with having to press harder on the throttle for longer it'll worsen your MPG. £80 is not a lot at all over the course of the year, plus you've already made the outlay for the box.
As soon as I can get the cash together I'll be installing one in mine. Although will need to check with Admiral first about the implications.
Thanks for keeping this thread updated with such detail. Think you, mcmaddy and I should organise a meet up if you do keep the box to see how much faster the box is ;)
You might have to change insurers to get the box if Admiral don't like you having the box. Brokers are generally the way to go with mods. Get your lowest quote on a comparison site without and then get brokers to come as close to that as possible. If it ends up doubling your premium you might think twice about having it (or declaring it).
Less throttle used with the box doesn't mean less fuel used as it uses more fuel at any given throttle pedal travel than without the box. The delivery of the whole stock throttle range seems squeezed into the first 3/4 of the throttle when you have the box on, with much more power to extract beyond. The box makes a hell of a difference to your power and torque, but no mpg gains using it normally, in my case.
Maybe I need to treat my GTD a little meaner. I hoofed it home today and literally lost 1mpg (indicated) for my troubles vs taking it easy yesterday. Driving a bit meaner might keep the active DPF regens at bay by raising your exhaust temp for a larger proportion of your journey.
If I saw the mpg increases their website claims trade on, I wouldn't even think about sending it back.
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Buddy: Return postage was £6.95, Special delivery. If you want full insurance for the cost of the unit then it doesn't get any cheaper because the add on insurance will eat up the cost savings (Checked out a number of parcel sending options, f**k, i'm tight! :grin:).
I only sent the physical box back, whereas you'll be sending back the box and the harness, but the threshold size to jump up another pricing tier is bigger than the box your set was sent in, so it'll be the same price.
Special delivery insures up to £500 and guaranteed before 1pm next working day (not on a Saturday).
Looking at yours and other people's returns, I think V-power is really screwing up my mpg - costs 6% more and maybe giving you 10% less economy. If I were to get 47mph with regular Shell, that would mean V-power costs you 17% more per mile than regular.
I used Eco mode for a while and did absolutely nothing for me. If you want to drive with a feather foot in Sport or use medium throttle in eco to get the same effect then the mpg is the same in my experience. Town driving is when I need the power - some roundabouts in Newcastle (most notably "4 lane ends" on my commute) are insanely busy - you really need to put your foot down when you see a gap and take it.
Going to run out this V-power and brim with regular Shell.
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Thanks MH, special delivery it'll be then. Tdituning dispatch same day for next day so I'll be without for less than three days, which I can live with.
Excuse the unintentional & unrelated quote in my post above! Sausage fingers on the iPad here. :grin:
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I always have the engine in sport, but use the ACC/ADC in Eco. It makes for much smoother acceleration and deceleration when keeping distance to the vehicle in front, which makes for significantly more smooth, 'predictive' driving. Sometimes i feel my car just release a touch of throttle before I'm even consciously aware that the driver in front has eased off the gas. Very relaxing cruise control.
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I always have the engine in sport, but use the ACC/ADC in Eco. It makes for much smoother acceleration and deceleration when keeping distance to the vehicle in front, which makes for significantly more smooth, 'predictive' driving. Sometimes i feel my car just release a touch of throttle before I'm even consciously aware that the driver in front has eased off the gas. Very relaxing cruise control.
Second that Buddy - Sport and Eco just the same for me and seems to work well :smiley:
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Just received an acknowledgement back from TDI-tuning that they got my box. Wondering how long mine will take as it needs tweaking rather than straight replacement (unless they have a set of alternative maps ready to go on).
The reply was from their “multilingual sales coordinator” with an Italian sounding name. Maybe they need the foreign languages expert to deal with my case because I’m a Geordie? :grin: :grin: :grin:
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TDI-tuning.co.uk box MK2 (post-tweaking) is arriving back to me today. I will let you know what’s changed (if anything).
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Got the box back yesterday lunchtime and fitted it before I went home. The box feels pretty much the same, maybe a bit livelier at the lower end than before. Indicated mpg changes are hard to gauge as this morning was the coldest commute I’ve seen this side of April (5.5C). Will run it a week until my fuel tank is nigh-on empty and see what the mpg is – I will base box MK2 mpg changes on the assumption that the first half of the tank was at the actual 42.4mpg I’ve been consistently getting. I’ll then give standard Shell a go without the box connected to see if my output and mpg go up like I expect it to.
It was returned in setting 4 of 7 and you can tell the difference over stock – livelier but not massively so like setting 7 was.
Buddy: Have you sent off for your dual channel system yet?
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Box arrived last week. Car arrived today. Took it for a quick spin without the box first and was fairly underwhelmed to be honest. Very smooth and flat torque curve. You find yourself at the limiter without really realising.
Couldn't resist fitting the box and trying it out so on it went on its max setting. The difference is very noticeable and it now feels like a reasonably quick car. Quite impressed with the Pirelli P Zeros on the 19s too, a bit of scrabbling on new tarmac in 2nd when floored but not too bad. Will fill it tonight and see what it'll do mpg wise over the next few days.
As someone previously mentioned it does stink after a good hot run - just the 'newness' burning off.
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Buddy: Have you sent off for your dual channel system yet?
Today was theoretically my last chance to send it back as it was an October deal apparently, so called this morning to see if they could hold off for a couple of weeks until I'll be in the area. All sorted, so will be having it calibrated and fitted in Chelmsford in 2 weeks time.
Long run today, motorways, in town and lots of b roads. Managed an indicated 55mpg. The penalty for going over 70mph genuinely seems to be reducing, but will see what the 'brimometer' says when I fill up.
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So for anyone that had ran the tdi tuning box for any length of time, what is your thoughts? This is probably controversial, but I'm starting to think that the gtd wasn't a great choice. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the performance and get 45mpg on average. It neither seems particularly fast or all that frugal. Does the box at max make it feel noticeabley quicker?
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So for anyone that had ran the tdi tuning box for any length of time, what is your thoughts? This is probably controversial, but I'm starting to think that the gtd wasn't a great choice. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the performance and get 45mpg on average. It neither seems particularly fast or all that frugal. Does the box at max make it feel noticeabley quicker?
For me, mpg gains? Forget it. You will get false high indicated mpg because the common rail fuel pressure is higher than the ECU thinks it is at any given amount of throttle. You can see this in that the higher the setting is on the box, the higher the indicated mpg gets. The discrepancy between indicated and real opens up from 5% (no box) to 9% (level 4) to 15% (level 7).
Performance is great at the higher end, and throttle response seems so much better - it's like someone woke the car up a bit (standard throttle response feels a bit dead compared to my Scirocco). You won't be able to put that extra power down in 1st or 2nd to get a 0-62 time of 6.5 - 7 seconds (A3 Quattro with GTD engine achieves 6.9s as it overcomes the GTDs traction limitations), but 3rd/4th/5th and 6th gear acceleration is so much better.
Don't expect the car to roar away when you change up and are doing less than 1500rpm just because you have loads more torque, you need to keep the turbo spinning at every change up to get the best out of it. The power increase is predictable - it's not like you half press it and it goes mental now. It's more like they took the standard output on the full throttle pedal travel and condensed it into the first 65% of travel, and then it keeps going some more.
Not entirely sure what TDI-tuning.co.uk did when I sent it back after not getting higher mpg and they remapped it again. It feels like they took a little bit off the top end, not a lot, but it's harder to get the traction control to start working hard in 3rd gear.
To be fair, without changing my driving style, and only giving it the beans (albeit a few extra beans) when I would've done anyway e.g. to shoot straight up to 80mph when entering dual carriageway from a sliproad,I haven't seen my actual (brim method) mpg dip.
Get it for the performance, not for mpg gains - you won't see them unless you take the MFD indicated value as gospel whilst wondering how your car has gone from 47mpg to 55 and yet you're spending the same amount on filling the car.
So it won't be any quicker screaming away at the lights, but it'll be a lot quicker doing 40 to 80+ mph.
The GTD is so much smoother than my Scirocco 170TDI that it doesn't feel anywhere near as quick, maybe it's too refined for it's own good when you want to rag it a bit. If you're sat on the motorway at a constant speed i'm sure you'll be glad of the extra refinement.
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Is there any smoke with full beans and the box fitted ?
Can't see any with full beans, but I imagine that any "smoke" to be seen would be soot and the DPF is supposed to capture all that and combust it.
So I think the thing to ask is “am I getting any extra regens with the box attached?”. At setting 4 I would say no. At setting 7 I am not sure because I had my first regen in ages a day after ramping up to setting 7, and it may have been a huge coincidence.
Mine is back on setting 7 for a few days and my box that got sent back for “tweaking” definitely seems less powerful after I had said to TDI-tuning that I wasn’t getting any mpg gains and traction on my sh!tty Bridgestones wasn’t great. New setting 7 is like old setting 4. I had the opportunity to really give it some this morning (clear and dry road) and the car was noticeably more powerful than stock, but felt nowhere near as powerful as it had been first time around. There was no fear of traction control kicking in on 3rd under hard acceleration this time around. Maybe it was because it was quite cold this morning (3C). I am making a short journey down the A1 this lunchtime – I will give it a bit of a testing today and then if it still feels much less powerful than 1st time around I will contact TDI-tuning to ask exactly what they did to my box when they “reconfigured” it.
Right now I suspect they cut 30-40% off the power gains to supposedly give me more mpg and resolve my traction issues which I blame the Bridgestones for.
Buddy: I wonder whether your dual channel replacement is like my first box or the revised box and whether you notice an appreciable difference with the dual channel vs single channel either way?
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Looking around on the net for other boxes – This one looks intriguing. It claims to work differently from the other boxes. Supposedly it monitors your driving style and it does nothing when driving normally (presumably when cruising/maintaining speed or at moderate acceleration only), letting the car run as per factory settings to minimise potential DPF issues, but put your foot down and it will kick in with “infinitely variable fuel mapping” and give you 231PS and 483Nm max for the GTD. Sounds like it acts far more like a remap than a box.
Reading between the lines, this system implies that other boxes just overfuel at any given throttle pedal travel by increased rail pressure (and boost pressure too, for the dual channel systems) all the time - either crudely (box of resistors £60 ebay job) or by more sophisticated means (the £200+ boxes).
The fact that they fall back on the factory settings for low load driving suggests to me that over the longer term, they don’t think constant common-rail pressure overload is good/advantageous for your car or offers any true mpg gains – which seems more plausible than the claims of higher mpg for the other box sites. The fact that you can stick this on another car that has the same harness connections without reprogramming also seems to add plausibility to its “learning” function and constant monitoring for changes in fuelling demands to act.
Or it could all just be more patter from another business vying for your cash.
I’m giving this one some serious thought seeing as though my TDI-tuning box seems to have had its wings clipped with the “tweaks”. I do like the idea of this box only intervening to provide more power when you want it, but otherwise leaving the car alone. It’s pricier, but comes with a 1 year powertrain warranty and a 5 year product warranty. No messing about with multiple maps of varying rail pressure/boost pressure increase either – 1 map does everything. It’s £375, but comes down to £300 with the discount code “7500”.
http://www.dieseltuning.co.uk/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=128_111_518&product_id=1848
(http://www.dieseltuning.co.uk/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=128_111_518&product_id=1848)
Their product patter:-
Spider® - Advanced design now alIows a pIug in tuning system so advanced, it can actuaIly mould to your driving style.
The Spider® dieseI performance system is the Iatest phase in dieseI tuning technoIogy. No other system on the market is as unique as the Spider®. Superb eIectronic cased in a newly designed Carbon Fiber effect high impact enclosure, complete with originaI equipment connection harness with features the competition can onIy imagine. The Spider® is the onIy plug in tuning system in the worId which uses Adaptivscan™ mapping software to constantIy change its infinitley variable fuel mapping™ to suit the current appIication. At a computation rate of 20,000 per second, the Spider® can compute and adjust its fueI mapping to a Ievel so precise, and can deIiver performance at a level of quaIity so high, it can compete with "Iive mapping" whiIst remaining removabIe and transferabIe to your next car. InstaIlation of the system is performed using an originaI equipment connection harness which simpIy plugs into existing connectors on your cars Ioom. The Spider® is then stored within the engine bay of the vehicIe, but can be removed for servicing and warranty issues which instantIy reverts the car back to standard without Ieaving a trace.
•Adaptiv-SCAN™ Fuel Delivery Software
•Automatic Calibration
•Automatic Voltage Control
•Automotive Quality Components
•Cold Start Delay
•Customer Adjustability
•DPF and FAP compatible
•Driver Characteristic Monitoring™ (New)
•Engine and Drivetrain Warranty Included
•Infinitely Variable Fuel Mapping™ (New)
•LED Function Display
•Robotic Made Circuitry
•Rpm & Load Detection
•Sports mode
•Chip Exchange™ For easy transfer between cars (New)
•VSPP™ (Voltage Spike & Polarity Protection)
Spider® - Adaptiv-SCAN™ Fuel Delivery Software.
Here at Spider® we are very proud of our AdaptivScan™ software.
Not only does it give you the most accurate adjustments to your car's fueIling, but it also has the unique abilty to adapt to suit how you drive your car, constantly. AIl the time the Spider® is installed, it is monitoring and adjusting to suit how you are driving at a rate of 20,000 times per second. So where ordinary "tuning boxes" increase fuelIing on a percentage value, the Spider® will increase the fuelling only when it is demanded and at a rate which is dependent on how you are driving. So, no black smoke beIlowing from the rear of your car like the "tuning box", just clean, crisp and precise performance tuning.
If you like to drive your car hard, then you wiIl not have to wait for the Spider® to adjust, Power on demand™ will kick in maximum power within 0.1 seconds. Monitoring the Ioad value of the car's engine allows the Spider® to know exactly when you want max Power.
Spider® - Automatic Calibration.
Automatic Calibration is a programming feature of the Spider®.
On first instaIlation, the engine is started and left on idle for 60 seconds. During this time the Spider® wiIl monitor and automatically caIibrate itself to suit your individual engine for a complete custom instaIlation. This means that the unit is now programmed for your car aIone. The caIibration procedure only has to be done the very first time you fit to your car. You can then remove the Spider® and refit it without the need to perform the procedure again.
Should you transfer the unit to your next car, the Spider® will automatically perform the calibration procedure again.
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Well I asked a few questions, and they were answered. Their system only modifies the car when needed (“on-demand”), with a 0.1s response time to full power, leaving the car running at normal VW set parameters most of the time. This means that there are no mpg gains to be had, but they stated that most, if not all competitors, state false high indicated mpg values as gains. I have seen this on my system – the higher the performance setting, the higher the indicated mpg I see on my MFD. They also claim that others can have a louder, less regular idle when running at a consistently higher fuel supply pressure because the engine is getting more fuel than it ideally wants at no load. I did comment to my dad when we took the old TDI-tuning box off his MK5 for trade-in that his car was idling more smoothly without the box, but it’s not something I’ve noticed on the MK7.
I’m about to have a few box-free days with normal full-fat diesel and see if I can live without the extra performance. If I can’t then I can see myself sending back the tweaked TDI-tuning box and getting one of these instead.
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Thanks for the information.
I think I was being a bit harsh last night. The car is a terrific place to sit, handles great and looks the part. I think like everyone else, I was sold on the huge mpg figures combined with the hot hatch"esque" performance. The car is perfectly quick enough in all situations, but because it is so refined it doesn't feel it, well at least in my eyes. If I was getting 55 to 60 mpg though, I'd be happy with the perceived power shortage, as the diesel compromise would be fulfilling that side of the bargain.
The new box information you have posted looks interesting, in fact exactly what I am looking for; a bit more oomph and if continued with 45mpg it would suit me to a tee. I note however there is no claims of being able to connect disconnect in 5 minutes. Is this a more complicated job than the tdi tuning box?
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AMarsh:
It looks no more complex - a box which connects to a wiring harness, which then connects in to the common rail (and maybe the boost sensor if it is dual channel). In the original email, I asked whether it was dual channel or single channel. The lass (sarah) said both versions were available. The biggest difference once connected seems to be you leaving it idling for a minute for the box to have a learning spell.
I emailed back saying I didn't see on the website that both were available, so do you just ask at the point of ordering. I also asked whether they both had the same output. Didn't get a response before I went home - will check back tomorrow.
Not sure whether Buddy will confirm, but when decelerating to idling, on top setting with the TDI-tuning.co.uk box, there is a bit of a flutter before it settles to 800rpm.
I felt exactly like you did about the car. It wipes the floor with my Scirocco in every way but looks and performance (or perceived performance) - the urgency when you put your foot down is lost in the refinement on the GTD, and on V-power at least, my standard GTD is definitely slower than my Scirocco not running V-power. I do feel robbed that I can't get 50mpg around the doors and 55mpg on a longer run. Hopefully that's down to the use of "semi-skimmed" Shell V-power. I will have my answer over the next day or 2 when I fill up tomorrow.
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I do wonder about some of these boxes that claim to do so much with just fuel pressure signal. If you take the single channel version; all the box has access to is the supply voltage to the sensor (12v ECU provided) and the voltage from the sensor i.e 0-5v which it modifies. How load, rpm and "driving characteristic" can be determined is unknown. The dual channel systems add the potential for a crude load reference.
On a separate note, I love the car with the tdi-tuning box on. Managed a calculated 48 mpg vs 57 indicated on max setting over first 480 miles. Mostly motorway. Going to do some performance tests when i get the chance.
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I do wonder about some of these boxes that claim to do so much with just fuel pressure signal. If you take the single channel version; all the box has access to is the supply voltage to the sensor (12v ECU provided) and the voltage from the sensor i.e 0-5v which it modifies. How load, rpm and "driving characteristic" can be determined is unknown. The dual channel systems add the potential for a crude load reference.
On a separate note, I love the car with the tdi-tuning box on. Managed a calculated 48 mpg vs 57 indicated on max setting over first 480 miles. Mostly motorway. Going to do some performance tests when i get the chance.
Hadn't realised you'd now got yours, glad you're enjoying it. They definitely curtailed mine when it was sent back for tweaks. My level 7 feels like the old level 4 before they made changes. If they stopped trying to sell these on false indicated mpg gains then there'd be less disappointment, now I just feel a bit shortchanged by them cutting the power down to supposedly get me more mpg (which hasn't worked, and I didn't think it would). 48mpg vs 57 is a whopping 19% over-optimistic. I reckon you've been having a LOT of fun with the car for the discrepancy to open up like that (mine is about 15% on level 7).
The "Spider" system does seem safer for the car (on paper), by not putting the common rail under extra pressure all of the time, falling back on normal when there isn't much demand on the car. Do you know how much extra pressure we're talking about on the modified signal with these boxes to force through 15-20% more fuel on any given throttle response? I personally haven't a clue without going through the physics for it that I haven't touched since my uni days.
Maybe that Spider box measures the rate of change of those "normal" signals and decides whether it's enough to kick in the big signal changes that get more fuel pressure through the common rail or whether to leave the car alone on stock signals?
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I officially asked to send back my TDI-tuning box this morning, via email – not heard a peep from them. Will give them until the end of the day and then I’ll ring. Asked my mate to send an email enquiring about getting one for his Audi A4 and email responded to in about 90 seconds. :angry:
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This depresses the sh*t out of me reading how underwhelmed you all are with the acceleration :cry:
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This depresses the sh*t out of me reading how underwhelmed you all are with the acceleration :cry:
I am underwhelmed with the "tweaked" acceleration. Acceleration was awesome before they tinkered with it in a vain attempt to get me higher mpg - just isn't going to happen in reality, the unit is just fooling the MFD when you see significant indicated gains (+15%) - the higher the setting, the higher the indicated gains because you're using the throttle less to get the same effect which the ECU takes to mean you are using less fuel. Makes me think that everyone on their website who say 20% mpg gains doesn't realise they're spending just as much on fuel and just take the indicated value as gospel.
If you get one of these purely for the performance (before they mess about with it for mpg gains), and especially if you don't have Bridgestone tyre grip to content with, you won't be disappointed. You won't see much at the low end, it will be hard to put all that power down in 1st and 2nd, but in the overtaking range, the difference was amazing (pre-tweak).
I've just filled up with standard Esso after taking the box off and the 4 mile drive home was much better than no box and V-power fuelling. Felt like just a smidge off setting 4 on my "tweaked" box (which was probably 2 or 3 on the "untweaked" box.
I will not be filling up with V-power again, but I might be tempted by the Spider box with no preconceptions of false mpg improvement expectations.
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I wouldn't worry about increased rail pressure. Very roughly i'd say if the tuning box is providing 30% more power it's going to need an absolute minimum of 30% more fuel which in this case is provided by increasing the pressure. I'm quite skeptical about the spiderbox claims to be honest. Remember that the fuel rail pressure is only higher than it would otherwise be if you are using the extra power. If you are using anything within the stock power range fuel pressure will be the same as in an unmodified car (you'll be using less throttle travel for same fuel delivery). AFAIK idle is a closed loop process so if the rail pressure is increased by the box the car will adjust rail pressure and injector pulse width to maintain desired rpm. The trouble with the way they claim the spider box works is that any sudden and out of character sensor input spikes will cause the ecu to log a fault and trigger the MIL. The way the "more than a resistor in a box" boxes work is by allowing little or no change at low rail pressure values then smoothly increasing the rail pressure up to a maximum value. I could very well be completely wrong but it sounds to me like it does nothing over the other boxes about.
The car is a different animal with the tuning box. As a company car I wasn't really expecting too much but with the box on it has surprised me. It is quick enough to have fun in. I've actually been out in it quite a few times just for the fun of it - something that I didn't think i'd ever do in my company car. The power gains I suspect are exaggerated but then I am Mr Skeptical.
MH - if you're looking for the best 'box' solution check this out:
http://www.crdtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Diesel-Control-ECU-Operator-Manual.pdf
It is expensive but uses an additional signal from the injector wiring to provide rpm and load data (a small CT wrapped around an injector wire measures injector current). Closest thing to a remap i've seen.
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Forgot to add; There are physical limits to the fuel rail pressure. The hardware will not allow unsafe fuel pressure to be reached no matter what the ecu tries to do. You wouldn't want a faulty pressure sensor causing the system to explode. :smug:
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Not sure whether Buddy will confirm, but when decelerating to idling, on top setting with the TDI-tuning.co.uk box, there is a bit of a flutter before it settles to 800rpm.
Not that I've noticed mate.
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Bruce - a hell of a lot of tech at that place with the link.
I suppose I have assumed that the common rail pressure is on a bit of a ramp across the throttle pedal travel range, with the fine tuning of the piezo-electric injectors having the fine control of fuel addition via their opening and closing up to 6 times per combustion event, rather like a tap on a mains pressure pipe. I thought that the box worked simply by upping that rail pressure ramp profile right across the throttle range.
To me that explained how the same power was achieved on a smaller throttle pedal setting when the box was on.
The Spider box talks of 20,000 calculations per second and a delay of less than 0.1s from normal to full load. To me that suggests that it works slightly differently by allowing the ECU to make a fuelling decision via signals and the box then decides what action to take to increase the rail pressure. If it detects small changes over however many calculations in a fraction of a second, it may decide to leave the ECU's signals unmolested, but on the larger changes it decides to intervene and up the rail pressure (that's my understanding of it, rightly or wrongly).
Their technical descriptions etc "seemed" a little more honest on their website. They say that their boxes don't provide mpg gains, nor do they claim to because when not under more than moderately low load demand it allows the ECU's unchanged signal to get to the common rail. They also said that other box tuners mpg "gains" come from the permanently increased rail pressure fooling the ECU into thinking the car is using less pressure than it is. This rings true because my TDI-tuning box appeared to be more economical (indicated), the higher up the settings you go, but actual mpg stayed the same or worsened.
Having the car operating within it's normal rail pressure parameters when not under much load seemed advantageous for smooth idling. I'm more worried aboout the longevity of the injectors than the common rail itself if the fuel system is constantly under increased pressure, rather than when just under mid/heavy load.
It could all just be patter though. Spider also claim to supply some main dealer marques for semi-official upping of the output. The description of how they claim the box works seemed so much more sophisticated, especially if it does operate on a process/review and act accordingly basis rather than a fixed system of throttle pedal load A, causing standard common rail pressure B is modified by the box to cause modified rail pressure C.
They've got excellent guarantee coverage and it would seem that the box can go onto another car without reprogramming, as long as the wiing loom connections are the same.
Right now my car seems a lot livelier on Esso (without the box),albeit only 4 miles in, than it did on V-power (without the box). Hopefully i'll see mpg increases too. I'll give it a few days and decide whether I really want the box, if the use of normal diesel brings performance closer to expectations than I was seeing before.
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VirginVWman:
I totally misread your meaning – I thought you were commenting on my lack of enthusiasm for the “tweaked” unit rather than the stock output for your car which is on its way.
I would say definitely don’t use V-power. I’m convinced that’s the main source of my disappointment at stock output. The car seems to have had a 10% kick up the arse switching to Esso (not saying Esso is better than any other normal diesel, but it’s better than V-power and right now my local Esso is 11p/L cheaper than V-power and 3p/L cheaper than standard Shell in my local Shell garage). It now seems comparable to my Scirocco.
There is still room for performance improvement with the addition of one of these boxes, but I suppose you have to ask yourself whether:-
1. You’ll take advantage of the extra power or whether you think stock is fast enough after run in.
2. Whether your car comes with the sh!tty Bridgestones, so you’ll have to be very careful of giving it anywhere near full throttle in 1st/2nd/3rd for traction considerations.
3. Whether your actual stock mpg is so far away from expectations you could stand it getting even lower.
4. How much extra your insurance company is going to want (if you tell them).
The biggest change you’ll feel every time you drive your car with one of these boxes is the increased response of the car to initiate a change in pace, even if you don’t utilise the full potential of the power increase. This is especially so in those situations when it’s the torque that will get you moving. You might not miss what you’ve never had, but these boxes do make a very noticeable difference to your driving experience once you’ve tried them.
I can only imagine what an un-tweaked TDI-tuning unit is like on setting 7 and using normal diesel instead of the V-power that I was using. I’m thinking that my setting 7 +V-power experience was like setting 5/6 and normal diesel.
Whether you’re pleased or not with the stock performance will probably depend what car you’re coming from. If you’re coming from a well run-in 170TDI, you might be expecting a little more from the GTD in its early days than you’re getting. If you’re coming from something under 150PS then you’re probably going to be wowed by it.
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I totally agree with monkeyhanger.
I've been fairly vocal in saying the stock GTD is not that quick. I think that is totally unfair. I've never had a diesel before and came from a 2001 bmw e46 330i sport. The bmw's engine was great and due to it's age it felt like you were going every bit of whatever mph you were doing. Coming form the bmw, the GTD's initial acceleration feels less frantic. As it is also so solid, your perception of how quick you are going doesn't correspond to what is happening on the speedo; you tend to be going a lot faster than you think you are!
I think it is a great car. For me personally, I'm still unsure whether to order a tuning box or leave as is. As I said previously, it is fast enough as stock for any real world scenario. If I am to get a tuning box, it would be only because of a hankering for that feel of speed I used to get in my previous car.
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I’m unsure myself about getting another box, the use of normal diesel seems to have negated most of that throttle numbness that I’ve been experiencing while I was running on V-power. The car’s response feels a lot more like my Scirocco now. The slightly sharper power pick-up for a change of pace after sitting at a certain speed is the only thing I’m missing with no box. That can probably be solved with a slightly less lazy driving style – changing down a little more often rather than maybe sitting at 60mph in 6th and wanting to be up to 80mph, so you rely on the torque to take you from 1600rpm to 1800rpm for the turbo to kick in and give you a hoof.
Having 230/240PS on tap is very tempting, but the opportunity to use most or all of it is very limited on my commute.
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Went into tdi's unit in Chelmsford & had them bespoke a map and fit a dual channel system to my car.
Definite improvement over the single channel system but not sure whether that's the tailored map or the fact it's dual channel. Much more high end power with just as much low end pull. It's on level 4 of 7. Will try the higher settings over the next few days & share my findings.
Impressed with the service. Steve, one of the partners, spent a few hours getting the set up just right including three test drives to be sure I was happy.
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How did the extra settings go Buddy? :)
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How did the extra settings go Buddy? :)
Sorry for being so long to reply mate. Been busy being a brand new dad :smiley:
Have been driving with it at level 6 out of 7 and it's just been a total pleasure to drive hard. Pulls powerfully from under 2k revs and the torque doesn't let up and gets a v-tec type second wind around 3.5k where it pulls even more! Completely satisfied.