Author Topic: GTD+  (Read 60468 times)

Offline virginVWman

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #140 on: 05 November 2013, 16:46 »
This depresses the sh*t out of me reading how underwhelmed you all are with the acceleration  :cry:
Mk VII 3dr GTD in DBP
Fitted DTUK Stage 2 (CRD-T)

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #141 on: 05 November 2013, 17:46 »
This depresses the sh*t out of me reading how underwhelmed you all are with the acceleration  :cry:

I am underwhelmed with the "tweaked" acceleration. Acceleration was awesome before they tinkered with it in a vain attempt to get me higher mpg - just isn't going to happen in reality, the unit is just fooling the MFD when you see significant indicated gains (+15%) - the higher the setting, the higher the indicated gains because you're using the throttle less to get the same effect which the ECU takes to mean you are using less fuel. Makes me think that everyone on their website who say 20% mpg gains doesn't realise they're spending just as much on fuel and just take the indicated value as gospel.

If you get one of these purely for the performance (before they mess about with it for mpg gains), and especially if you don't have Bridgestone tyre grip to content with, you won't be disappointed. You won't see much at the low end, it will be hard to put all that power down in 1st and 2nd, but in the overtaking range, the difference was amazing (pre-tweak).

I've just filled up with standard Esso after taking the box off and the 4 mile drive home was much better than no box and V-power fuelling. Felt like just a smidge off setting 4 on my "tweaked" box (which was probably 2 or 3 on the "untweaked" box.

I will not be filling up with V-power again, but I might be tempted by the Spider box with no preconceptions of false mpg improvement expectations.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2013, 17:49 by monkeyhanger »
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline Bruce

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #142 on: 05 November 2013, 20:22 »
I wouldn't worry about increased rail pressure. Very roughly i'd say if the tuning box is providing 30% more power it's going to need an absolute minimum of 30% more fuel which in this case is provided by increasing the pressure. I'm quite skeptical about the spiderbox claims to be honest. Remember that the fuel rail pressure is only higher than it would otherwise be if you are using the extra power. If you are using anything within the stock power range fuel pressure will be the same as in an unmodified car (you'll be using less throttle travel for same fuel delivery). AFAIK idle is a closed loop process so if the rail pressure is increased by the box the car will adjust rail pressure and injector pulse width to maintain desired rpm. The trouble with the way they claim the spider box works is that any sudden and out of character sensor input spikes will cause the ecu to log a fault and trigger the MIL. The way the "more than a resistor in a box" boxes work is by allowing little or no change at low rail pressure values then smoothly increasing the rail pressure up to a maximum value. I could very well be completely wrong but it sounds to me like it does nothing over the other boxes about.

The car is a different animal with the tuning box. As a company car I wasn't really expecting too much but with the box on it has surprised me. It is quick enough to have fun in. I've actually been out in it quite a few times just for the fun of it - something that I didn't think i'd ever do in my company car. The power gains I suspect are exaggerated but then I am Mr Skeptical.

MH - if you're looking for the best 'box' solution check this out:

http://www.crdtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Diesel-Control-ECU-Operator-Manual.pdf

It is expensive but uses an additional signal from the injector wiring to provide rpm and load data (a small CT wrapped around an injector wire measures injector current). Closest thing to a remap i've seen.
BW39 GTD Red, 19's, ACC, Dynaudio, Reverse Cam.

Offline Bruce

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #143 on: 05 November 2013, 20:30 »
Forgot to add; There are physical limits to the fuel rail pressure. The hardware will not allow unsafe fuel pressure to be reached no matter what the ecu tries to do. You wouldn't want a faulty pressure sensor causing the system to explode. :smug:
BW39 GTD Red, 19's, ACC, Dynaudio, Reverse Cam.

Offline Buddy

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #144 on: 05 November 2013, 21:15 »

Not sure whether Buddy will confirm, but when decelerating to idling, on top setting with the TDI-tuning.co.uk box, there is a bit of a flutter before it settles to 800rpm.



Not that I've noticed mate.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #145 on: 05 November 2013, 22:18 »
Bruce - a hell of a lot of tech at that place with the link.

I suppose I have assumed that the common rail pressure is on a bit of a ramp across the throttle pedal travel range, with the fine tuning of the piezo-electric injectors having the fine control of fuel addition via their opening and closing up to 6 times per combustion event, rather like a tap on a mains pressure pipe. I thought that the box worked simply by upping that rail pressure ramp profile right across the throttle range.

To me that explained how the same power was achieved on a smaller throttle pedal setting when the box was on.

The Spider box talks of 20,000 calculations per second and a delay of less than 0.1s from normal to full load. To me that suggests that it works slightly differently by allowing the ECU to make a fuelling decision via signals and the box then decides what action to take to increase the rail pressure. If it detects small changes over however many calculations in a fraction of a second, it may decide to leave the ECU's signals unmolested, but on the larger changes it decides to intervene and up the rail pressure (that's my understanding of it, rightly or wrongly).

Their technical descriptions etc "seemed" a little more honest on their website. They say that their boxes don't provide mpg gains, nor do they claim to because when not under more than moderately low load demand it allows the ECU's unchanged signal to get to the common rail. They also said that other box tuners mpg "gains" come from the permanently increased rail pressure fooling the ECU into thinking the car is using less pressure than it is. This rings true because my TDI-tuning box appeared to be more economical (indicated), the higher up the settings you go, but actual mpg stayed the same or worsened.

Having the car operating within it's normal rail pressure parameters when not under much load seemed advantageous for smooth idling. I'm more worried aboout the longevity of the injectors than the common rail itself if the fuel system is constantly under increased pressure, rather than when just under mid/heavy load.

It could all just be patter though. Spider also claim to supply some main dealer marques for semi-official upping of the output. The description of how they claim the box works seemed so much more sophisticated, especially if it does operate on a process/review and act accordingly basis rather than a fixed system of throttle pedal load A, causing standard common rail pressure B is modified by the box to cause modified rail pressure C.

They've got excellent guarantee coverage and it would seem that the box can go onto another car without reprogramming, as long as the wiing loom connections are the same.

Right now my car seems a lot livelier on Esso (without the box),albeit only 4 miles in, than it did on V-power (without the box). Hopefully i'll see mpg increases too. I'll give it a few days and decide whether I really want the box, if the use of normal diesel brings performance closer to expectations than I was seeing before.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #146 on: 06 November 2013, 10:23 »
VirginVWman:

I totally misread your meaning – I thought you were commenting on my lack of enthusiasm for the “tweaked” unit rather than the stock output for your car which is on its way.

I would say definitely don’t use V-power. I’m convinced that’s the main source of my disappointment at stock output. The car seems to have had a 10% kick up the arse switching to Esso (not saying Esso is better than any other normal diesel, but it’s better than V-power and right now my local Esso is 11p/L cheaper than V-power and 3p/L cheaper than standard Shell in my local Shell garage). It now seems comparable to my Scirocco.

There is still room for performance improvement with the addition of one of these boxes, but I suppose you have to ask yourself whether:-

1.   You’ll take advantage of the extra power or whether you think stock is fast enough after run in.
2.   Whether your car comes with the sh!tty Bridgestones, so you’ll have to be very careful of giving it anywhere near full throttle in 1st/2nd/3rd for traction considerations.
3.   Whether your actual stock mpg is so far away from expectations you could stand it getting even lower.
4.   How much extra your insurance company is going to want (if you tell them).

The biggest change you’ll feel every time you drive your car with one of these boxes is the increased response of the car to initiate a change in pace, even if you don’t utilise the full potential of the power increase. This is especially so in those situations when it’s the torque that will get you moving. You might not miss what you’ve never had, but these boxes do make a very noticeable difference to your driving experience once you’ve tried them.

I can only imagine what an un-tweaked TDI-tuning unit is like on setting 7 and using normal diesel instead of the V-power that I was using. I’m thinking that my setting 7 +V-power experience was like setting 5/6 and normal diesel.

Whether you’re pleased or not with the stock performance will probably depend what car you’re coming from. If you’re coming from a well run-in 170TDI, you might be expecting a little more from the GTD in its early days than you’re getting. If you’re coming from something under 150PS then you’re probably going to be wowed by it.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline AMarsh

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #147 on: 06 November 2013, 11:18 »
I totally agree with monkeyhanger.

I've been fairly vocal in saying the stock GTD is not that quick.  I think that is totally unfair.  I've never had a diesel before and came from a 2001 bmw e46 330i sport.  The bmw's engine was great and due to it's age it felt like you were going every bit of whatever mph you were doing.  Coming form the bmw, the GTD's initial acceleration feels less frantic.  As it is also so solid, your perception of how quick you are going doesn't correspond to what is happening on the speedo; you tend to be going a lot faster than you think you are!

I think it is a great car.  For me personally, I'm still unsure whether to order a tuning box or leave as is.  As I said previously, it is fast enough as stock for any real world scenario.  If I am to get a tuning box, it would be only because of a hankering for that feel of speed I used to get in my previous car. 

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #148 on: 07 November 2013, 09:09 »
I’m unsure myself about getting another box, the use of normal diesel seems to have negated most of that throttle numbness that I’ve been experiencing while I was running on V-power. The car’s response feels a lot more like my Scirocco now. The slightly sharper power pick-up for a change of pace after sitting at a certain speed is the only thing I’m missing with no box. That can probably be solved with a slightly less lazy driving style – changing down a little more often rather than maybe sitting at 60mph in 6th and wanting to be up to 80mph, so you rely on the torque to take you from 1600rpm to 1800rpm for the turbo to kick in and give you a hoof.

Having 230/240PS on tap is very tempting, but the opportunity to use most or all of it is very limited on my commute.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline Buddy

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #149 on: 12 November 2013, 18:18 »
Went into tdi's unit in Chelmsford & had them bespoke a map and fit a dual channel system to my car.

Definite improvement over the single channel system but not sure whether that's the tailored map or the fact it's dual channel. Much more high end power with just as much low end pull. It's on level 4 of 7. Will try the higher settings over the next few days & share my findings.

Impressed with the service. Steve, one of the partners, spent a few hours getting the set up just right including three test drives to be sure I was happy.