Use of long life oil in the GTI - THE opposite viewpoint !

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Coming up to a 20,000 mile service, so decided to get a quote from a well known VAG specialist as well as local dealers.
Asked for Long Life oil, as per the perceived wisdom that many on this site advocate.
Said it had already been changed at 10,000 miles, so it wasn't the first service.
Was a bit surprised to see in the response that as a matter of course they will not put long life oil in the cars that they service,
unless explicitly told to do so by the customer, because of many previous problems when using that oil.

Hmmmm . . . . worms, can, and open spring to mind.  Not to mention warranty and bye-bye!

So, I phoned up to discuss.
Reason given was that over many years of experience, they have encountered several failures of VAG engines, including the 1.8T and 2.0 FSI,
due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.
They said this usually manifests itself from 8 years - 80,000 miles upwards.
Their experience tells them that it is the long life oil that is the cause of the problem.

What a load of utter bollox.

Did this so-called VAG "specialist", or the others, actually get a formal "Used Oil Analysis" carried out?  If not, then they are way out of order to state that it is specifically the oil at fault.

I do accept that there are issues with oil sludge - and this is particularly so on pertol engines with turbos - but this has jack schit to do with "LongLife" oils.  It is simply down to incorrect maintenance - which I will address later.

Obviously, not many 2.0 TFSI engines have done that mileage, so they haven't come across a problem with it yet, although they have had an A3 2.0 FSI engine with the problem.

So what was the result of the Used Oil Analysis?  Oh, sorry, they didn't do one, did they!    So they can't actually blame it on the oil.

So they highly recommend an engine flush to make sure that all gunge is removed then to use a 10W40 oil instead.

That is really, REALLY bad advice - and is a blatant, "old-skool" un-educated point of view.

And it will invalidate your warranty.

And will affect resale values and desirablity too.

Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.

Yet more un-educated clap-trap you have been told.  A 5w30 is less viscous (in simple-speak - less thicker) than a 10w40 - so they have got it the wrong way round.  The 5w30 oil will warm up sooner than the 10w40.

The 5w30 will also start to protect your engine much sooner than the 10w40, and will use less fuel in the process (due to less "pumping losses").

I guess the other variable is that the spec of the long life oil (now at mark 3) has changed over the years.
Don't know if that makes any difference ?

You are correct that the LongLife oils have improved over the three "generations" of VW standards.  However, even the original "Mk1" brew of LongLife is still way better than ANY non-LongLife oil - even a VW502.00 rated brew.

They are an outfit that has received a lot of good press on this web site from many frequent and trusted inhabitants, and they are very familiar with highly tuning all variants of the 2.0 TFSI plant, as well as routine servicing.
They didn't want to be named because of potential problems with VAG themselves, so I won't do that.

Hmmmm, I can't see why they shouldn't be named.  Afterall, if you are simply relaying "word for word" (to your best abilites) their advice, then they should be exposed for giving blatantly incorrect, uneducated, and unresearched advice.  And should anyone actually follow their advice, then it will become a "nice little earner" for the extra work that will eventually result - as a result of premature engine wear.

Anyone else on here heard of similar problems later in a VAG engine's life that could have been put down to use of long life oil ?

Nope, not the oil.

However, any problems of "issues" to VAG engines are simply down to two three issues - either:

• a: the owner not complying with the official manufacturer recommendations (specifically regarding the oil used, and the service regime)
• b: stealers (either genuine or independent) not complying with the official manufacturer recommendations
• c: stealers failing to give correct advice on the limitations of the LongLife regime

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Hmm, what 10W-40 oil are they suggesting and is it fully synthetic or semi?

The above really doesn't matter - simply because there are NO 10w40 which are Volkswagen approved - irrespective of weather they are fully synthetic or not.

I would have thought that the extensive R&D VW used in order to recommend the use of longlife oil should make the garage's claim suspect.

Yup, me too.

And whilst we are on the "R&D" issue, don't forget the equally extensive ACEA specifications - which are actually just the starting point for VW oil specifications. 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.

Unless the actual oil is breaking down and going lumpy (which would be a massive issue), it must be an accumulation of the usual contaminants that build up over time in the engine. Modern oils have very good cleaning properties, but sooner or later it will be unable to keep those contaminants in suspension. I suspect those cars effected have done lots of short low mileage journeys and then maybe compounded the problem by exceeding the max 2 years between longlife services. Not the type of driving longlife servicing is meant for.

You are spot on.  And this is where the owners, and more importantly, the stealers fall foul of.

Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.

my limited knowledge on oil tells me a thinner oil protects on cold startup better as it flows easier.


almost sounds like I know what I am talking about 

You sir, are indeed correct!   

[Teutonic_Tamer]

i am going to continue to use the long life until VW say otherwise i think 

Or TT...   

yeah lol! 

LOL x2

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Yeah, I don't know if I mis-heard or mis-interpreted the bit about the long life oil taking longer to heat up, or if the guy may have made an assumption about the long life 3 oil spec, don't know, but what I wrote didn't make sense !

OK, no worries

Think I'll phone a few other VAG specialists to see if there's any correlation with what I was told.

It would be good to have names of these specialists.   

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Done some phoning...

3 VAG specialists have never encountered any problems that they could put down to using the long life oil.

So 3 say no problems, but just one does claim to have problems.  The aroma of a rat should be detectable. 

But, 1 did say that engines that use it are not as clean as those that don't - when they are stripped and examined - regardless of service interval.

Compared to what?  And how are they defining "clean"?

As a matter of course, they use a good quality fully synthetic 5W40 oil,

Make, type, VW approval.  Because if they are oils from american oil companies, then their definition of fully synthetic does not actually comply with the very strict definition of the European Union.  So, if for example, they are recommending some "fully synthetic" from say Valvoline or Mobil - then by EU standards, it most definately will NOT be fully synthetic. 

and recommend 10,000 mile oil change intervals.

Hmmmm - just another "one size fits all" piece of advice.  This may be fine for most, however, if you have tuned your car, or do track days, or tow a caravan (well for the latter, a 12bore to the temples would be the best advice!  ) - then 10k miles OCIs can still be way too long.

So, some correlation with the original response that I got from the well known organization that I spoke to on Friday - the one who many of you have trusted to supply and / or fit engine, exhaust, brake and suspension mods, to re-map your ecu's, to test on their rolling road, but whose recommendation for the most important component of all - you don't trust.

Not really any correlation at all!  The three other VAG specialists made no claims that the LongLife oil was to fault.  And neither did any of them recommend a 10w40.

And just because someone happens to sell good quality zorsts, anchors, or springy bits - which I bet include Milltek and Eibach (and are equally highly praised and available at many, many other suppliers) - does that somehow make them experts in Tribology?  I personally think NOT.

Strange one this, and a bit of a dilemma - how do you distinguish between fact and belief ?

Facts are simple.  Comply with what Volkswagen recommend.

"Beliefs" are just that - a simple opinion which can be formed by many many different variables - and I bet profit margin plays a massive part in their "recommendation". 

Bit like the two theories of breaking in an engine I suppose, but that's another mass debate...

<cough> you need to keep that to yourself <cough>       

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....

I change my oil every 10,000 miles anyway.

On the GTI, mine gets done every 6months or 5k miles.  I do let the RS4 go upto a year or 10k though (no turbo to cook the oil  ). 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:

http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0

Yup, spot on.  From 2009 calendar year, for cars of model year 2001 and newer, all cars (petrol and diesel) irrespective of service regime, will only use LongLife 3 oils.

And if you have an oil burner with a DPF, then you MUST only use LongLife 3 oils, even on the T&D service.

Finally, many of the older VW oil specifications for petrol engines have now become obsolete - 500.00, 501.00 and 501.05 are all obsolete (none of which affects any Mk5 owners, but may be useful to owners of older cars).

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:

http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0

Cass

I wonder if the price is going to go up then?  I think I paid £5 - 10 more to have Long Life oil used at the 10,000 miles service rather than normal T&D oil.
I'm pretty sure that when I rang up the Seat dealer posing as a Cupra owner, they said that Long Life oil is all that they use with the Cupra even for a T&D 10,000 mile service........

There is a price difference between the 502.00 T&D oils compared to any of the LongLife brews - but for a Golf, it should only really be a max of £20 extra for the LL brew.

And it seems the Seat stealer knows what good advice is!   

[test_richie]

On the GTI, mine gets done every 6months or 5k miles.  I do let the RS4 go upto a year or 10k though (no turbo to cook the oil  ). 

I am glad you put the above. That is what i did with my old polo and will continue to do with the golf.


Really good read of all the above info TT