Use of long life oil in the GTI - THE opposite viewpoint !

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Thanks for all that TT, it made very interesting and in some respects slightly worrying reading for my R32. I certainly didnt buy my R32 to drive it like a granny so I would class myself as regularly having some 'spirited' driving sessions. ie I should be on T&D 

OK, even 'spirited driving' can be open to conjecture.

I might class spirited driving something like:  drive sedately whilst cold, wait for the coolant to reach normal operating temp, then wait another few minutes/miles for the oil to get warm.  Shove the stick to manual, pedal to the metal and wait for the DSG to change on the rev limiter, and be last of the 'late brakers', outbraking lewis hamilton at every bend. 

Wheras someone else might class spirited as:  car/coolant/oil warm, roads clear and dry - come to a favourite road - oh lets take it up to 4,000 rpm in third and see what she does!    Even IAM styles of driving can appear to be 'spirited driving' - so it is very much 'how long is a piece of string'.

The most crucial bit - and which can do the most damage - is how you treat your engine when it is cold.  One of my neigbours literally ruins the engines in every single car she has - whatever time of day (she works funny shifts), ice or baking sun, she is in reverse gear accelerating at nigh-on full bore, before she has even released the ignition key to start the engine.  She is the only person I know who can ruin camshaft bearings in a month! 

A good rule of thumb, when the engine is cold - never more than 3,000 revs, and never more than half throttle.  Wait until the coolant guage reaches normal, and then allow a "few" more minutes for the oil to reach the correct operating temps - few is a bit loose - but it all depends on the quantity of oil in your sump.  The GTI has 4.6 litres, and generally heats up roughly at the same time as the coolant.  But my RS4 has 10.0 litres of oil in the sump, and that can take another 10 minutes after the coolant!

So......I should be on T&D and not long life..... I agree with the above also. My opinion is now that any GTI or R32 should in 99% of the cases should be on T&D.

Agreed.  All VAG stealers, by 'default' automatically set the regime to LongLife.  However, I would argue that ALL performance models, ie Audi S and RS models (and the mighty R8  ), VW GTIs and Rs, Skoda vRSs, and Seat 'Cupras' - should all be set by default to T&D.  If the customer then asks about LL servicing, they should be clearly told about the strict requirements and limitiations of use for LL.  Maybe get them to sign a disclaimer or sommat.

Now here comes the icing on the cake. My R32 is out of warranty in October 2009. Where do I stand with my stealer given the fact I have been put on the incorrect servicing regime. I am more thinking of this further down the line should anything go wrong with my car once the warranty has expired......

As in taking any action against the stealer?  Then not a chance.  They will probably just say sommat like "the speed limit in the UK is 70mph, and that is well within the capabilites of the R32" !

In all honesty, if anything does go wrong with your car prematurely (and I mean problems with the engine caused by 'suspect' lubrication), then it is more likely to be 'user error'.  Ask yourself honestly, how often do you lift the bonnet and check the oil, and how often do you check the tyre pressures (including the pram wheel spare)?  Me, bonnet opened daily, tyres weekly (pram spare every two months) - and my oil level never goes below 2/3rds on the dipstick.  Anal, yes, but I know my engine bay like the back of my hand.

[synnea]

[quote author]
But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed'  , then T&D would be best.  LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.
[/quote]

I had best be speaking to my dealer then soon see if I can get it changed over. A bit too many 'traffic light grand prix' for me  

[Teutonic_Tamer]

[quote author]
But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed'  , then T&D would be best.  LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.

I had best be speaking to my dealer then soon see if I can get it changed over. A bit too many 'traffic light grand prix' for me  
[/quote]

Trouble is, by doing that, you can actually cause more damage.  When was it last serviced (how many miles ago and how many months ago)?  And what does the SID (Service Interval Display) say when you call it up manually?


EDIT: edited for clarity (to explain what 'SID' means)

[synnea]

It was serviced last week at 32k miles. That was the second long life service. The first one was at 17k miles i think  . Maybe I should just leave it on long life then? At my desk in work here so cant get out just yet to see what its showing for miles left until service.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

It was serviced last week at 32k miles. That was the second long life service. The first one was at 17k miles i think  . Maybe I should just leave it on long life then? At my desk in work here so cant get out just yet to see what its showing for miles left until service.

OK, you are in luck.  Because it was only done a week ago, by changing it now to T&D, you won't mess with any 'mid-cycle LL' readings for the SID. 

So when you next get to the car, the 'manual call-up' SID test should read sommat like 720 days or 19000 miles to next serv.

Because it is so close after the serv, if you carry out the manual SID reset, as described in the maintenance sub forum, it will just change it to T&D for you, and the stealer wont even need to know.  Then in 12 months time (or 10k miles if you are a high miler), when you fone the stealer to book it in, and they query about the LL, just tell them that you now want it done on T&D (but still make sure they use the LL brew oil). 

EDIT: edited for clarity (and for my numpty mistake: 10 miles > 10k miles)

[synnea]

Ok good stuff!! Thanks for the advice.

[stealthwolf]

Presuming the car gets serviced every 10k, would I have to get the oil change at every 5k done by dealer, or could I do it elsewhere without anyone knowing?

[KRL]

i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'

They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.

Hi T_T,

This is really interesting.  I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear.

How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?

Right - there are much higher 'forces' associated with the FSI HPFP - it has a relatively 'strong' return spring in the pump, when compared to relatively 'weak' return springs for the normal inlet and exhaust valves.  The FSI HPFP is basically putting similar loads onto the camshaft which the unit injectors of the PD diesels do (take a close look at a PD injector, and they have strong springs too).  So, understanding that they (PD injectors and FSI HPFP) have much beefier springs, and also understaning how a camshaft applies its loads - this places a unique requirement on the lubricant.  The camshaft is the only component in the engine which places large 'sheer' demands on the lubricant film - this is true in 'normal' engines (ie, non-PD and non-FSI - which just operate inlet and exhaust valves - ok, the elderly pedants out there will also state the very old skool manual fuel lift pumps, but these had a very weak return spring, and were normally used on engines where the camshaft was mounted in the block, and not head-mounted overhead cams  ) - but this 'sheer' demand is massively higher on PD engines (and the derv-heads will know about the specific PD-only oils), and this is also true of FSI engines too.

OK, with the above thoroughly digested and understood - we now move onto the specifics of lubricants.  If you look at the first post in this thread: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779 - and scroll down to the bit under the "Engine Oils" heading, you will see I describe briefly the different Volkswagen testing 'standards' for the oils.  For a genuine LongLife 3 oil, it must comply with two VW standards - 504.00 (this is a petrol engine standard) and 507.00 (and this is for diesels) (there may also be other non-VW standards too, such as the ACEA A3 and B4, but these are not relevent to this particular point of discussion).  Now, open your glovebox and open the second from last booklet (providing all the books are there) - should be titled something like "GTI Technical Data", and search for the oil requirments.  You will see that it gives three VW standards of oils - for the LongLife service regime: 503.00 and 504.00, and for Time and Distance regime: 502.00 (and also includes the LongLife oils too).  So, to take the LL3 oil, you will see that the GTI requirement matches the 504.00.  Because ALL Volkswagen oil standards are 'backwards compatible', the current 504.00 petrol engine standard will also comply with 503.01, 503.00, 502.00, 501.01 etc, and the same for the diesel standards.  So if we now specifically look at the "502.00" oils so vhermently 'recommended' by the Yanks, and also understanding that VW-specced oils are generally are 'dual fuel' (one oil is formulated for use in petrol and diesels - just like the LL3 oil) - then you will find that virtually all 502.00 oils will only have the diesel spec of 505.00.  This is a crucial observation for FSI engines, becuase the derv-heads will know that 505.00 is NOT rated for the PD diesel - so, in basic terms, 502.00 oils have NOT been tested (nor designed for) any 'high sheer loads'.  OK, there are a small minority of 502.00 oils which do meet the higher diesel spec of 505.01 - but these are always sold as "PD diesel engine oils", or "Turbo Diesel engine oil" or similar, and are generally much more expensive than a non 505.01 oil.

So, in summary - a "Time and Distance" oil does NOT have any 'high sheer' abilites needed for the FSI HPFP, whereas the LongLife oils (LongLife 2 and LongLife 3) do.

My 2.5 year old  2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime.  The services have occurred every 16-17k.  My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited  drive at the weekend.  I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.

Well, provided the car has always been serviced when the SID pings you, and not been fiddled with and reset like some other forums seem to adamantly recommend, then it should be OK.  Can I ask why your GTI was set to LongLife servicing?  Was it some requirement of the lease company?

Thanks T_T this is really helpful, I have now learned my new thing(s) for today 

Yes it was the lease company's decision to put it on the LL regime, unfortunately I had no choice in that.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Presuming the car gets serviced every 10k, would I have to get the oil change at every 5k done by dealer, or could I do it elsewhere without anyone knowing?

I don't quite get what you mean?  Is there something in that bit, where I should be "reading between the lines"? 

Anyhow, is your service reminder (correct term - "Service Interval Display", abbreviated "SID") set to LongLife or Time and Distance?  If it is set to LL, then it is strongly advised to have it changed to T&D, because of the complications (confusion of the Oil Quality Sensor) of the LL algorithm.

If you are on T&D, and want to do an 'in-between' 5k oil change, then anyone can do this, you can even do it yourself if you have a pair of ramps, a drain pan, a 19mm socket for the sump plug, and a 36mm 6-point socket for the filter housing - oh, and a torque wrench - but then EVERYONE owns a torque wrench, don't they!

If you do change it yourself, if you don't have a special VW tool to pre-drain the oil fliter housing, then it can get a bit messy - but a few sheets of workshop paper roll, or even your mrs old knickers, if you are that way inclined  will mop up the mess.  And you will need 4.6 litres - so if you buy Castrol in Halfrauds, it only comes in 4 litre packs, so get an extra litre bottle - or just get two 4 litre packs, and use the left overs for topping up (or the next time you change the oil).

Part numbers for 'hardware' (prices retail +vat):
N  908 132 02 - oil sump drain plug with integrated sealing washer - £1.08
06D 115 562 - oil filter element kit (includes disposable element and rubber o-ring) - £8.73, or £4.80 trade

Part numbers for oil (again, +vat):
GVW 052 195 M2 - 1 litre of "VW branded" (with a little VW logo on the bottle - they also do an Audi one too) official VW LL3 engine oil - £14.37, or £7.90 trade
G  052 195 M4 - 5 litre of official VW LL3 engine oil - £64.42, or £35.43 trade (which is £7.09 per litre)

ZGB 115 QLB 005 00 - 1 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £5.11 trade (these Quantum prices are last years, so a very minor increase is expected)
ZGB 115 QLB 005 01 - 5 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £24.19 trade (which is £4.84 per litre)
ZGB 115 QLB 005 02 - 20 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £86.02 trade (which is £4.30 per litre)

"Quantum" is the official Volkswagen UK 'aftermarket' range (just like Motorcraft to Ford).  Quantum oils are made by Castrol (and include the same Castrol technical helpline), and are similar in spec (but not identical) to the 'retail' Castrol products in Halfrauds, Opie Oils, and the likes - but much cheaper! 

Sooooo - who says proper LongLife 3 oils are expensive?   


EDIT: edited for spelling, clarity of Quantum oils

[stealthwolf]

I don't quite get what you mean?  Is there something in that bit, where I should be "reading between the lines"? 

Basically, the car needs to have a FVWSH, which means for every service, I should take it down to the stealers and get it done (they supply another car that I can use, which is almost essential in my work).

But don't know whether the oil change would need to be done by a VW dealer or VW-approved garage, or whether I could do it instead.

At the mo, I believe the car is set on LL as default, when I went to the dealer for some fluids I asked. But I do too many short journeys as well as long ones, so it needs to be on T&D. They said to bring it in around January and they'll do the service and change it too. Unfortunately, couldn't get a slot in Jan so it's gonna be done in Feb! Whilst that'll be fine for LL, I have no idea how it would impact for me to then change it to T&D servicing.

57-plate. Car was reg'd in Jan 08, bought by me 2nd hand at 3k and it now has 9k.