Use of long life oil in the GTI - THE opposite viewpoint !

[KRL]

i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'

They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.

Hi T_T,

This is really interesting.  I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear.  How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?

My 2.5 year old  2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime.  The services have occurred every 16-17k.  My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited  drive at the weekend.  I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times 

Huh - the LL oil is proven by way of VWs own test standards to be way better than ANY T&D oil.  Why do you think that the T&D oil has now been discontinued at all VW and Audi stealers.

By all means, if you drive your car hard, then change it every 5k miles, but please do use LL3 oils (and only LL3 oils from either Castrol, Fuchs or Motul - don't bother with Mobil 1 ESP, or any other 'questionable' oils).  

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times 

What about LL every 5k? Or not worth it?

If you drive it hard, then yes.  That is exactly what I do.

[stealthwolf]

Fantastic T_T!

I have Castrol LL3 oil 5W30 (I think) bought from VW dealer.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'

They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.

Hi T_T,

This is really interesting.  I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear.

How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?

Right - there are much higher 'forces' associated with the FSI HPFP - it has a relatively 'strong' return spring in the pump, when compared to relatively 'weak' return springs for the normal inlet and exhaust valves.  The FSI HPFP is basically putting similar loads onto the camshaft which the unit injectors of the PD diesels do (take a close look at a PD injector, and they have strong springs too).  So, understanding that they (PD injectors and FSI HPFP) have much beefier springs, and also understaning how a camshaft applies its loads - this places a unique requirement on the lubricant.  The camshaft is the only component in the engine which places large 'sheer' demands on the lubricant film - this is true in 'normal' engines (ie, non-PD and non-FSI - which just operate inlet and exhaust valves - ok, the elderly pedants out there will also state the very old skool manual fuel lift pumps, but these had a very weak return spring, and were normally used on engines where the camshaft was mounted in the block, and not head-mounted overhead cams  ) - but this 'sheer' demand is massively higher on PD engines (and the derv-heads will know about the specific PD-only oils), and this is also true of FSI engines too.

OK, with the above thoroughly digested and understood - we now move onto the specifics of lubricants.  If you look at the first post in this thread: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779 - and scroll down to the bit under the "Engine Oils" heading, you will see I describe briefly the different Volkswagen testing 'standards' for the oils.  For a genuine LongLife 3 oil, it must comply with two VW standards - 504.00 (this is a petrol engine standard) and 507.00 (and this is for diesels) (there may also be other non-VW standards too, such as the ACEA A3 and B4, but these are not relevent to this particular point of discussion).  Now, open your glovebox and open the second from last booklet (providing all the books are there) - should be titled something like "GTI Technical Data", and search for the oil requirments.  You will see that it gives three VW standards of oils - for the LongLife service regime: 503.00 and 504.00, and for Time and Distance regime: 502.00 (and also includes the LongLife oils too).  So, to take the LL3 oil, you will see that the GTI requirement matches the 504.00.  Because ALL Volkswagen oil standards are 'backwards compatible', the current 504.00 petrol engine standard will also comply with 503.01, 503.00, 502.00, 501.01 etc, and the same for the diesel standards.  So if we now specifically look at the "502.00" oils so vhermently 'recommended' by the Yanks, and also understanding that VW-specced oils are generally are 'dual fuel' (one oil is formulated for use in petrol and diesels - just like the LL3 oil) - then you will find that virtually all 502.00 oils will only have the diesel spec of 505.00.  This is a crucial observation for FSI engines, becuase the derv-heads will know that 505.00 is NOT rated for the PD diesel - so, in basic terms, 502.00 oils have NOT been tested (nor designed for) any 'high sheer loads'.  OK, there are a small minority of 502.00 oils which do meet the higher diesel spec of 505.01 - but these are always sold as "PD diesel engine oils", or "Turbo Diesel engine oil" or similar, and are generally much more expensive than a non 505.01 oil.

So, in summary - a "Time and Distance" oil does NOT have any 'high sheer' abilites needed for the FSI HPFP, whereas the LongLife oils (LongLife 2 and LongLife 3) do.

My 2.5 year old  2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime.  The services have occurred every 16-17k.  My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited  drive at the weekend.  I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.

Well, provided the car has always been serviced when the SID pings you, and not been fiddled with and reset like some other forums seem to adamantly recommend, then it should be OK.  Can I ask why your GTI was set to LongLife servicing?  Was it some requirement of the lease company?

[synnea]

TT - just on a side note. My R32 is on long life. I assumed VW know the best for their cars (do they really?  ) so it never even crossed my mind to question why or why not my R32 was on long life. She now has 32k miles on the clock and just had the second long life service. Never had a problem with it. I guess what I am asking is, if I had another R32 and it mirrors the history of my long life one (ie same sort of driving, miles etc) would I expect any positivies or negatives when comparing an R32 on long life against a mirrored one on time and distance?

Perhaps another question then is, what criteria deterimines why VW decide to put a car on time and distance or on long life?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

TT - just on a side note. My R32 is on long life. I assumed VW know the best for their cars (do they really?  )

Volkswagen Group in Germany do know what is best for their cars - however, this knowledge seems to vanish when it crosses the English Channel.    Volkswagen UK (along with Audi UK and the other VAG UK companies) also know the correct info - because they actually publish it in detail in their sales brochures.  The big problem lays with the stealers who just don't seem to understand plain english, but also the problem then can be pointed back at VW UK, because they seem to be completely unable at regulating any kind of 'technical proficiency' by their own franchised stealers - and it is the stealers where the 'joe-public' tend to get their info from! 

so it never even crossed my mind to question why or why not my R32 was on long life. She now has 32k miles on the clock and just had the second long life service. Never had a problem with it. I guess what I am asking is, if I had another R32 and it mirrors the history of my long life one (ie same sort of driving, miles etc) would I expect any positivies or negatives when comparing an R32 on long life against a mirrored one on time and distance?

OK, there are two 'extreme ends', and a 'grey area' somewhere in the middle of most scenarios - and the same is for LongLife servicing.  So to 'plot' these requirments:

(a) 100% OK for LL servicing > (b) 75% OK for LL serv > (c) 50:50 for LL or T&D > (d) 75% for TD (shouldn't really use LL) > (e) 100% T&D (you are a numpty if you use LL serv)

And to match these with engines and driving styles:

• a: would be suitable for all diesel engines, even those with a turbo (but not modified), and driven in a 'normal' manner (ie, not bouncing of the rev limiter in every gear, but with an occasional 'clear out' when warm)
• b: TDIs, with very minor mods but driven normally (say a mild remap or a cat back zorst), petrol engines withOUT turbo and no mods, driven normaly
• c: mildly modded TDIs with a heavy right foot, mildly moded non-turbo petrols driven normally, standard turbo petrols driven hard-ish, standard turbo petrols if driven by a granny
• d: heavily modded TDIs, or other TDIs driven very hard, mildly modded petrols (turbo & non-turbo) driven moderately, heavily moded petrols driven like a granny
• e: standard turbo petrols when driven hard, heavily modded turbo petrols (even if driven like a granny), any engine where you thrash it to within an inch of its life (you really should be at least evey 5k miles!)

Hmmm, I think I have covered most scenarios.  But I have a feeling I may need to do some tweaking after a re-think.  Discuss . . . 

Perhaps another question then is, what criteria deterimines why VW decide to put a car on time and distance or on long life?

Read this: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779

[topher]

After absorbing information exchanged between myself and TT in pm's, and further backed up by his above post.. I could never really recommend LL regime for ANY R32. I'm certainly having mine put onto T&D when it goes in for the next service.

[synnea]

Thanks for all that TT, it made very interesting and in some respects slightly worrying reading for my R32. I certainly didnt buy my R32 to drive it like a granny so I would class myself as regularly having some 'spirited' driving sessions. ie I should be on T&D 

So......I should be on T&D and not long life..... I agree with the above also. My opinion is now that any GTI or R32 should in 99% of the cases should be on T&D.

Now here comes the icing on the cake. My R32 is out of warranty in October 2009. Where do I stand with my stealer given the fact I have been put on the incorrect servicing regime. I am more thinking of this further down the line should anything go wrong with my car once the warranty has expired......

[Teutonic_Tamer]

After absorbing information exchanged between myself and TT in pm's, and further backed up by his above post.. I could never really recommend LL regime for ANY R32. I'm certainly having mine put onto T&D when it goes in for the next service.

Individual driving styles are probably more important.  I am sure there are many peeps who by an R32 just for a "pose factor", and others simply buy it because it is the "top of the range".  And some of these will never get near the red line, they will drive it like a limosine, stick to the speed limits, never take part in 'traffic light grand prix' - oh, and just occasionaly reach 80mph on the motorway.  Fot those types, the LL regime would still be perfectly acceptable, and I honestly doubt that any more damage was done by the LL regime, providing they use the correct oil.

But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed'  , then T&D would be best.  LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.