S3 Intercooler vs Forge Intercooler

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Whats the problem with taking off the front "panel"?

It is quite a bit more difficult compared to just removing the bumper, and requires two pairs of axle stands, when most "home mechanics" will probably have just one pair.

The good thing about the S3 core is that it has OEM appearance, and it wont restrict air to the A/C core or the OEM Cooler, and it does give 20% decrease in inlet temp over the OEM core.

Agreed to a point.  Yes, the S3 is very "OEM", however, what you forget is the fact that both the standard GTI cooler and the S3 cooler will both be subjected to heat from the air-con condensor - not a huge issue for most of time here in Blighty, but for the OP in Malta, then the a/c condensor will be chucking out a fair bit of heat straight into the S3 cooler.  The is a huge advantage for the Forge.

Also, you could have an S3 core and a cat back exhaust for the price of a Forge unit.

But you have not taken labour charges into account!

I never used any axle stands. All that was needed was something to support the A/C,I/C,Radiator assembly when the Intercooler was getting removed. The job can be done with the wheels on the car and without it being jacked up

OK, fairy nuff.  But the issue is that basically there needs to be an additional method of supporting the relevent bits, be that blocks of wood, bricks, breeze blocks, or even bags of ice cubes in this chilly weather!.     

With regard to hotter countries, you may well be correct, but I can count on 1 hand the number of times I had on the A/C this year in the UK so for me at least, this is not an issue. For those in hot countries, S3 intercooler plus the likes of a twin core may be better. This has been tried and tested in the USA with good results.

Maybe you don't like using the air con, but many peeps keep their air con on permanently, and even here in Blighty, the air con can have a noticeable effect on the standard intercooler.  Forge is completly isolated from this.

Furthermore, you forget that the standard cooler (GTI or S3) is bolted directly and very close to the very hot coolant radiator, and will suffer from heat conduction, at an increased rate directly proportionate to the increased requirements of IAT cooling - the harder you cane the car, the more cooling effect is required of the intercooler, but at the same time, more heat is generated by the engine and sent to the coolant rad.  Again, the Forge is isolated from this.   

With regard to labour charges, the likes of Star do the core change in 2 hours now which is less than £100. Add that to the £300 purchase price, and it still costs less than half what a Forge Twintercooler costs without fitting.

Hmmmm . . .  2 hours does seem rather quick.  Does that include more than one techy working at the same time?

And don't forget that the Forge could be fitted in probably a quarter of the time it takes for the S3 i/c.  If you are "darn sarf", and paying higher hourly rates, then this will have a proportionally direct affect on the prices.

I do agree that the Forge is overpriced though, but it is a very good piece of kit, and can be had for £600 all in. 

I actually did a guide on how I did it and my memory was obviously getting crash bar and slam panel mixed up lol.

Was that over on SCN? 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....

Excellent info!!

The only problem is that it's still difficult to decide which to fit - S3 i/c or Forge i/c? [Ignoring cost differences as I tend to do]. I expect you're going to say "Both!" T-T.

Both - you can't take your money with you!     

Just to throw another spanner in the works - I wonder what the Mk6 GTI i/c is like and whether it'll fit the Mk5. And does the latest 2009 S3 have the same i/c or have there been further VAG improvements?

If the Mk6 GTI is the same as the Rocco, then it has identical i/c, rads and the like as the Mk5.  And I doubt the S3 will have any further evolutions in that specific department either - the current S3 cooler really is as good as any aftermarket one, in terms of its design and engineering.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Not sure if this is gonna be relevant to you RR. Before we fitted one of the S3 cores, we logged a Revo'd Cupra with a TBE and uprated air intake. Intake temperatures were approx 34oC max. On the same bit of road within 10 minutes, a standard MK1 Leon Cupra R with full exhaust, uprated intake, forge FMIC and standard code logged 30oC max intake temperature.

That was a difference of just over 10%. With the S3 core fitted, a stage 2 Leon Cupra will always return lower intake temperature than the standard Leon Cupra R with the Forge Front Mount.

Huh - how can you state such illogical and meaningless conclusions?  It is like comparing chalk with cheese!    A Mk2 Cupra, with stage 2, and an S3 cooler - against a Mk1 Cupra, with standard ECU and a completely different I/C to the "TWINtercooler".  Different engines, different ECUs, different aerodynamics, ect, ect! 

As individual coolers, both the S3 and the Forge coolers have each been proven to provide noticeable improvements to IATs.

I do not know of two indentical 2.0T cars, one with an S3 core and the other with a Forge Twintercooler to test back to back and compare inlet temps, but it would be interesting to see the result.

But both scenarios have been proven to work.

[djhorace]

Not sure if this is gonna be relevant to you RR. Before we fitted one of the S3 cores, we logged a Revo'd Cupra with a TBE and uprated air intake. Intake temperatures were approx 34oC max. On the same bit of road within 10 minutes, a standard MK1 Leon Cupra R with full exhaust, uprated intake, forge FMIC and standard code logged 30oC max intake temperature.

That was a difference of just over 10%. With the S3 core fitted, a stage 2 Leon Cupra will always return lower intake temperature than the standard Leon Cupra R with the Forge Front Mount.

Huh - how can you state such illogical and meaningless conclusions?  It is like comparing chalk with cheese!    A Mk2 Cupra, with stage 2, and an S3 cooler - against a Mk1 Cupra, with standard ECU and a completely different I/C to the "TWINtercooler".  Different engines, different ECUs, different aerodynamics, ect, ect! 

As individual coolers, both the S3 and the Forge coolers have each been proven to provide noticeable improvements to IATs.

I do not know of two indentical 2.0T cars, one with an S3 core and the other with a Forge Twintercooler to test back to back and compare inlet temps, but it would be interesting to see the result.

But both scenarios have been proven to work.

My point is that the OEM core in the GTi is a lot more efficient than people are giving it credit for. The GTi core is used in the GTi/Ed30/Cupra/FR/Pirelli. The S3 core and its approx 20% drop in inlet temps over the GTi core makes a tuned 2.0T cooler than a non tuned 225bhp 1.8T 

A tuned car is gonna develop higher inlet temps than a non tuned car regardless of it being a 1.8T or a 2.0T so to see a 300+bhp tuned 2.0T with lower inlet temps than a "standard" 1.8T with a big Forge FMIC is interesting.

For sure the 1.8T and 2.0T engines are chalk and cheese to use your analogy, and the 2.0T is more advanced and therefore more likely to be more efficient stock vs stock against a 2.0T, but inlet temps are inlet temps 

[djhorace]

Whats the problem with taking off the front "panel"?

It is quite a bit more difficult compared to just removing the bumper, and requires two pairs of axle stands, when most "home mechanics" will probably have just one pair.

The good thing about the S3 core is that it has OEM appearance, and it wont restrict air to the A/C core or the OEM Cooler, and it does give 20% decrease in inlet temp over the OEM core.

Agreed to a point.  Yes, the S3 is very "OEM", however, what you forget is the fact that both the standard GTI cooler and the S3 cooler will both be subjected to heat from the air-con condensor - not a huge issue for most of time here in Blighty, but for the OP in Malta, then the a/c condensor will be chucking out a fair bit of heat straight into the S3 cooler.  The is a huge advantage for the Forge.

Also, you could have an S3 core and a cat back exhaust for the price of a Forge unit.

But you have not taken labour charges into account!

I never used any axle stands. All that was needed was something to support the A/C,I/C,Radiator assembly when the Intercooler was getting removed. The job can be done with the wheels on the car and without it being jacked up

OK, fairy nuff.  But the issue is that basically there needs to be an additional method of supporting the relevent bits, be that blocks of wood, bricks, breeze blocks, or even bags of ice cubes in this chilly weather!.     

With regard to hotter countries, you may well be correct, but I can count on 1 hand the number of times I had on the A/C this year in the UK so for me at least, this is not an issue. For those in hot countries, S3 intercooler plus the likes of a twin core may be better. This has been tried and tested in the USA with good results.

Maybe you don't like using the air con, but many peeps keep their air con on permanently, and even here in Blighty, the air con can have a noticeable effect on the standard intercooler.  Forge is completly isolated from this.

Furthermore, you forget that the standard cooler (GTI or S3) is bolted directly and very close to the very hot coolant radiator, and will suffer from heat conduction, at an increased rate directly proportionate to the increased requirements of IAT cooling - the harder you cane the car, the more cooling effect is required of the intercooler, but at the same time, more heat is generated by the engine and sent to the coolant rad.  Again, the Forge is isolated from this.   

With regard to labour charges, the likes of Star do the core change in 2 hours now which is less than £100. Add that to the £300 purchase price, and it still costs less than half what a Forge Twintercooler costs without fitting.

Hmmmm . . .  2 hours does seem rather quick.  Does that include more than one techy working at the same time?

And don't forget that the Forge could be fitted in probably a quarter of the time it takes for the S3 i/c.  If you are "darn sarf", and paying higher hourly rates, then this will have a proportionally direct affect on the prices.

I do agree that the Forge is overpriced though, but it is a very good piece of kit, and can be had for £600 all in. 

I actually did a guide on how I did it and my memory was obviously getting crash bar and slam panel mixed up lol.

Was that over on SCN? 

Keith would be able to tell you how many people did his car. I am sure he was something like £130 to fit the intercooler and fuel pump on his car all in.

Having not done a Forge, I am not sure how long it would take, but the 2 things that take longest in the job is taking the bumper off and aligning the headlights. Even if you use the screws like you suggest, they still dont align properly when you re-install them.

I would be surprised if a twintercooler could be done in 30 minutes, but not done one yet 

Cant remember if I posted the guide for the S3 or not, but I will look for the photos we took

By the way, wasnt there issues with the big intercooler core affecting the radiator efficiency on the 1.8T's?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Not sure if this is gonna be relevant to you RR. Before we fitted one of the S3 cores, we logged a Revo'd Cupra with a TBE and uprated air intake. Intake temperatures were approx 34oC max. On the same bit of road within 10 minutes, a standard MK1 Leon Cupra R with full exhaust, uprated intake, forge FMIC and standard code logged 30oC max intake temperature.

That was a difference of just over 10%. With the S3 core fitted, a stage 2 Leon Cupra will always return lower intake temperature than the standard Leon Cupra R with the Forge Front Mount.

Huh - how can you state such illogical and meaningless conclusions?  It is like comparing chalk with cheese!    A Mk2 Cupra, with stage 2, and an S3 cooler - against a Mk1 Cupra, with standard ECU and a completely different I/C to the "TWINtercooler".  Different engines, different ECUs, different aerodynamics, ect, ect! 

As individual coolers, both the S3 and the Forge coolers have each been proven to provide noticeable improvements to IATs.

I do not know of two indentical 2.0T cars, one with an S3 core and the other with a Forge Twintercooler to test back to back and compare inlet temps, but it would be interesting to see the result.

But both scenarios have been proven to work.

My point is that the OEM core in the GTi is a lot more efficient than people are giving it credit for. The GTi core is used in the GTi/Ed30/Cupra/FR/Pirelli.

I don't think anyone here has "discredited" the standard GTI cooler at all.    The actual discussion was simply to compare the pros and cons between the S3 cooler and the Forge cooler.  And each has their own significant advantages and disadvantages. 

The S3 core and its approx 20% drop in inlet temps over the GTi core makes a tuned 2.0T cooler than a non tuned 225bhp 1.8T 

But that is still an irrelevent comparision.  How, specifically does that address the differences between the S3 and the Forge coolers?  It doesn't! 

A tuned car is gonna develop higher inlet temps than a non tuned car regardless of it being a 1.8T or a 2.0T so to see a 300+bhp tuned 2.0T with lower inlet temps than a "standard" 1.8T with a big Forge FMIC is interesting.

For sure the 1.8T and 2.0T engines are chalk and cheese to use your analogy, and the 2.0T is more advanced and therefore more likely to be more efficient stock vs stock against a 2.0T, but inlet temps are inlet temps 

And I think we all agree that a "tuned" car, particularly a "turbo" - will develop higher inlet air temps.  Again, that isn't the issue.  The crux of my concern is that the 1.8 20vT is a generation behind the 2.0T FSI, and the two should never attempted to be compared side by side.  It is like trying to compare the handling of two cars - one with a solid rear axle and leaf springs to the other with fully independent suspension with coil springs! 

Furthermore, you failed to answer my point on the different aerodynamic profiles between the Mk1 and Mk2 Cupras - the specific placement of the i/c may be affected by different air flows, dependent on the frontal aero profile - to such an extreme that a FMIC may work well on one car, wheras on the other car, SMICs may be more efficient. 

[djhorace]

Just as I said, it would be great to compare 2 identical 2.0T cars, one with an S3 core and the other with a Twintercooler 

[ED30_MLT]

Yes

Will be nice too test both

I think I will more go forge and paint it black, as I dont want to mess with the cars front panel .

The only thing is if they perform the same the forge is a better option for me, as I am doing the Oettinger 330bhp conversion (just software mainly) as I have a milltek TB waiting on the floor  and forge IC instead of S3

I imagine the software will work well with the Forge will it

Anyone

Thanks

[vRStu]

I run the S3 one and love it, I've fitted and removed a forge one for someone and I wouldn't buy one I'm afraid.

Why not? 

I don't think it's one of their finest products if I'm honest Sean, certainly on the Octavia it's not a great installation.

Perhaps it is slightly different on the GTi.

[bacillus]

I think I will more go forge and paint it black,

You can ask that the Forge IC to be in black from your supplier.
It will also work with your Oettinger map.