Author Topic: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine  (Read 15933 times)

Offline E30M3

  • GTI forum regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #10 on: 29 September 2008, 18:58 »
TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.

....The clue is in T_T's signature :wink:










[A great big spliff!] :evil:

Me CANNO NO CEE MON, ALL ZE SMOKE, Puff puff pass !
[/URL]

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #11 on: 29 September 2008, 19:07 »
Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3

I think that is slightly irellevant though.  Because my RS4, along with the R8, and RS6 V10 biturbo all use the inlet cam to drive the FSI pump - and you should see the monster pumps on the RS6.  :shocked:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #12 on: 29 September 2008, 19:12 »
The new "Mk6" engine is a completely different unit, and shares no components with the current Mk5 GTI lump.  It has a completely different block/crankcase, with different cylinder spacing, for more reliable and consistent cooling, and therefore improved emissions.

However, the fundamental difference between the Mk5 and Mk6 engines are the arrangement of drive for the camshafts.  On the current Mk5 GTI, it has a belt driven exhaust camshaft, and these are a real bast@rd to change.

This newest Mk6 GTI engine, which is now available in the new Rocco as RR indicated, is basically the Audi developed unit.  It has chain-only driven camshafts (fully maintenance free), along with variable valve timing for both intake and exhaust (the Mk5 only has VVT for the intake).  Furthermore, it also has selective "valve-lift", which is a little similar to Hondas V-tec system, but considerably more refined.  The turbo has also been repositioned for easier access too.

Regarding the actual naming of the engine, because all VW / Audi high performance petrol engines are now made (or will be!) with cylinder direct fuel injection, the FSI acronym is now superflous.  Therefore, the TSI acronym will now be used.

TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.

I just have official press access for all of the VAG marques (including the "big boys" - Lambo, Bentley and Bugatti), and also pay for erWin technical info too.  The erWin stuff aint cheap though!  :embarassed:  Oh, I also have ETKA, but keep that quiet!  :wink:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #13 on: 29 September 2008, 19:38 »
TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?

That is one of the $64,000 questions.  Yes, it does have a number of improvements over the current 2.0TFSI engine (found in the current GTI and Ed30, to name just a few).

Some of the more important features.

The actual distance between the cylinders is now slightly larger - this allows for a larger volume of water in the coolant passages, and also allows for larger bore (which creates improved torque compared to smaller bores), and larger valves.  All of this means that major improvements in engine efficiency - leading to lower CO2 emissions, and fewer visits to the V-Power pumps too.  And for countries such as the UK which use emissions based taxations, this will then lead to lower tax bills.

The drive mechanism for the camshafts is also completely new, and is basically derrived from the V8 engine first used in the B6 S4.  On the current GTI/Ed30 engine, it uses a rubber/kevlar timing belt.  These timing belts are a "maintenance item", and on all models of the Mk5 platform (Golf V GTI/Ed30, Audi S3, Audi TT2, Å koda Octavia II vRS, and the Seat Leons), it is a real arse to change, because the right engine mount can not be fully removed - making access to the belt a royal pain in the arse.  Think of the sidelamp bulbs in Golf V Xenons, and you should get the picture.  On the new "Mk6" GTI engine, the rubber band belt has been ditched in favour of a much slimmer timing chain.  This is completely maintenance free (providing you change your oil regularly with quality VW approved brews), and because chains are about a third of the width of a timing belt, save space too.

Then there is the actual variable valve timing (VVT) - the current GTI can only use VVT for the inlet camshaft, whereas the new motor has VVT on both inlet and exhaust valves - again, leading to improvements in both power delivery and reduced emissions.

The final major change to the "innards" of the engine are the introduction of variable lift, or opening of the exhaust and inlet valves.  Anybody who has an interest in the V-Tech technology will already be aware of this.  However, being as this engine was initially developed by Audi, and this specific technology is penned as "valve-lift", it will be considerably more refined, and completely stepless.  Basically, at low engine speeds (depending on how the system is set up - and I've not fully studied this yet), just one of the two inlet and exhaust valves will be opened (for improved torque, from better "swirling" of air-fuel in the combustion chamber), but at higher speeds, both valves will open (allowing for "freeer" breathing, hence more top-end power).


So, as a final "summary" - will it be "better" than the current engines?  Well, for refinement, power delivery and economy - then a big yes.  For out and out performance - don't know - proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and all that!  :wink:  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #14 on: 29 September 2008, 19:40 »
TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?

i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?

Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline RedRobin

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,227
  • BIALI Motorsport - Chief Horn Blower!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #15 on: 29 September 2008, 20:03 »
TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?

i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?

Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:

....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.
:cool: FACEFOOK: https://www.facebook.com/robin.procter.50?ref=tn_tnmn



Throbbin' Red VeeDub GTI Mk5 - DSG, Custom Milltek TBE, Forge Twintake, KW-V3 + Eibach ARBs, AP Racing BigBrake kit, Quaife ATB diff, Revo2

Offline E30M3

  • GTI forum regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #16 on: 29 September 2008, 20:04 »
Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:

but they would be biased !!!! LOL

 I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this knowledge you have to us. Its invaluable too many of us on here.  Too many time before i have modded only knowing the basics and really just wasted monies, but with your knowledge i know what i am attempting to do ( sort of !  :laugh: _

once again thanks Teutonic_T !  :cool:

Raj

[/URL]

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #17 on: 29 September 2008, 20:22 »
TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?

i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?

Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:

....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.

Have you spoken to them?  And is the new donkey still using the Bosch MED9 ecu?
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #18 on: 29 September 2008, 20:23 »
Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:

but they would be biased !!!! LOL

 I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this knowledge you have to us. Its invaluable too many of us on here.  Too many time before i have modded only knowing the basics and really just wasted monies, but with your knowledge i know what i am attempting to do ( sort of !  :laugh: _

once again thanks Teutonic_T !  :cool:

Raj

No worries mate.  It is nice to know that my musings are appreciated, and are also helpful.  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline RedRobin

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,227
  • BIALI Motorsport - Chief Horn Blower!
Re: difference between Turbo FSI & TSI engine
« Reply #19 on: 29 September 2008, 20:56 »
TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?

i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?

Now that, I really can not answer.  Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte.  Revo and the like would be better ones to ask.  :smiley:

....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.

Have you spoken to them?  And is the new donkey still using the Bosch MED9 ecu?

....Yes, when I visited Revo HQ in person recently. I'd have to confirm about the ECU - I don't want to misinform.
:cool: FACEFOOK: https://www.facebook.com/robin.procter.50?ref=tn_tnmn



Throbbin' Red VeeDub GTI Mk5 - DSG, Custom Milltek TBE, Forge Twintake, KW-V3 + Eibach ARBs, AP Racing BigBrake kit, Quaife ATB diff, Revo2