understeer comments with new tyres [1500 mile update added]

[john_o]

ever since I bought my car I always felt the tendency for my ED30 to 'plough on' / understeer in dry / wet conditions was perhaps more than I thought it should be. (tried various tyre pressures)
Well for unexpected reasons I have recently had 2 new front tyres fitted and an alignment done.
Out of my control the specific type of tyre has also changed.

I bought the car with Michelin Pilot Exaltos all round (OEM from new)
I now have Michelin Pilot Sport replaced on the front (The tyre looks quite a bit different on the outer edge)

Anyway Ive been doing a few miles to bed them in , then yesterday I took a run to Scotland via some back roads Im familiar with.

The change is nothing short of a mini revelation.
I noticed as soon the tyre were fitted that the 'feel' and turn in was far superior (road noise is up too fwiw)
Yesterday the car had so much more grip in dry and wet conditions (dry going up , wet on the way back!) , the car just went where I pointed it and hung on. Of course the std cars limits are still reached if you push to hard.

In fact the difference is so marked that the rear tyres now give me a overteery setup (as they have reduced grip) , its the first time Ive seen ESP flashing with the back end out (before the front end was always the limiting factor)

Now it could be alignment too , but I have to say the Pilot Sports imho are a far superior tyre for my preferences.
The car seems much more like the GTI 'pointyness' Ive always read about.

Personally I would have chosen Goodyear Assymetrics  , and I'm not entirely happy with a non matched 'unbalanced' setup front/rear. So I may have to change it further.

Time will tell but I though it was important to share :-)


JohnO

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Thanks for sharing your comments.  Can you please clarify a couple of issues though?

What is the exact spec of the original OEM tyres - ie, are they the first generation Pilot Exalto, or the current Pilot Exalto PE2 (the "PE2" will be in much smaller letters, so can be easily missed/overlooked).

Current Pilot Exalto PE2:


And as above, the same question for the Pilot Sport.  Are they the original "directional" Pilot Sport, or the current asymmetrical Pilot Sport PS2 - again, the "PS2" is very small.

Old Pilot Sport and current Pilot Sport PS2:



I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.

Regarding your "oversteer" comments, providing you have the latest PS2s, now that you have well and truely "srubbed" them in, I would recommend putting them on the rears, and moving the older Exaltos to the front.  This will (a) give you a safer handling characteristic, and (b) help you to wear them out much quicker - so you can get another pair of Pilot Sports.   

[john_o]

Ok TT , just for you 

Rear Exaltos are the new PE2 type
Front are the new PS2 assymetrical pattern
both are EXTRA LOAD as well

I hear what you are saying but I would hate to go back to the 'old feel' for x thousand miles and I prefer the rear slip bias(until I put it in a ditch !), it really felt that bad in terms of no grip.
In fact I still feel there are even more improvements to be made to reduce understeer , so its not that bad it just rebalances the car rather than the prev terminal understeer at every roundabout

What you say though is good and safe advice which you can remind me if I bin it 

Exaltos are wearing well , so I will see if the improved performance compromises the PS2 life.
Commonly PS2 are VERY expensive.
Do you not like the Assymetric Goodyear F1 as recomended in EVO review ?
(I raved about the old GSD2 and GSD3 tyres)


What I need to do , is put the PS2 's on the back and fit Goodyear Assymetrics on the front and that will tell me which to have as a full set of 4 lol.


sidenote : I ran PS2 on my old E46 M3 and loved them too , but when it came time to replace I bought Goodyear GSD3's as they were as good but 50% of the price.
Money no option Id get PS2 , but in the real world Im probably goodyear biased

[mrlapou]

Did the alignment need adjusting. If it did, then this on it's own would make a big difference to grip/stability.

Were the old tyres evenly worn across the width?

[john_o]

alignment was fine before , and the tyres had worn evenly across the tread.
I added it as a caveat as it was also something that had changed , but I attribute the improvement to the tyres

[lsc]

Where was your destination in Scotland John_O? I regularly travel between Manchester and Edinburgh, I leave the M74 at J13 and head towards Biggar then take the B7016 to the A70 which has a good mix of quick and winding sections and is also a very quiet road. It's a typical British A road so has some dodgy surfaces that test your cars composure and compliance. The ED30 was a revelation on this road compared to my previous car an Alfa GT 3.2 which only liked perfectly smooth roads.

I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.

TT why do you suggest that the EVO tyre test was biased? I've read every issue of EVO since issue 1 and have always considered it be a genuinely 'unbiased' magazine with no alegience to any mark, they have been 'accused' of siding with Porsche and Subaru in the past, but they do have a fetish for drivers cars. Pirelli generally provide all the tyres for their track tests to give an even playing field, so if they were going to be biased towards any tyre you would think it would be that brand and not Goodyear.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.

TT why do you suggest that the EVO tyre test was biased? I've read every issue of EVO since issue 1 and have always considered it be a genuinely 'unbiased' magazine with no alegience to any mark, they have been 'accused' of siding with Porsche and Subaru in the past, but they do have a fetish for drivers cars. Pirelli generally provide all the tyres for their track tests to give an even playing field, so if they were going to be biased towards any tyre you would think it would be that brand and not Goodyear.

Huh - I don't think I said Evo was biased towards Goodyear!  I merely stated that it was biased in such a way that the PS2 was at a disadvantage!

This "bias" I referr to has nothing to do with the actual tests, or the surface, or location (however, the intense heat and "baking sunshine" of Italy is very different to our road conditions here in Blighty - so whilst a tyre may perform more favourably in hotter climes, in cooler conditions, it may perform worse).

The bias is a simple, basic, fundamental - but extremely important cock-up.  Namely the Load Index of all the tyres used in their test.  We all know that the Golf 5 GTI must use "Extra Load" tyres - yet in the Evo test, the Michelin PS2s (and two others) were only a standard load tyre.  This will give a considerable "skew" to the test results, particularly those specific tests which actually "load up" a tyre, such as the handling tests (lap times, and lateral G, cornering - both wet and dry), braking tests (wet braking, dry braking), and even the rolling resistance tests. 

Unfortunately, many people worship what Evo says as Gospel truth. 

However, lets say they were testing a Ford Focus ST (or whatever their GTI equivalent is these days) against a GTI, not tyres or anything, but the cars as a "whole".  They then filled the blue oval exclusively with either Shell V-Power or Tesco 99, but quietly run the GTI on Asda standard 95 unleaded - and the Focus blitzed the GTI.  I think we would all call that biased, and foul play - probably becuase most peeps know the differences between petrols.  Unfortunately, tyres are a bit of a "black art", and the vast majority know fcuk all about them, let alone the specific importance of the Load Index.  Indeed, on this very forum, we have peeps who had virtually new cheap korean crap tyres on, complained of iffy handling, yet didn't associate the crap handling with the crap tyres!

[sixpot]

I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.
~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.

Can you scan it?  E-mail it to me if you don't wanna post it, as I'd be very interested in reading it, and picking over the finer points!      Or when was the relevant issue - is it still on the shelves?

~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.

Low rolling resistance and long tyre life arn't directly related.  One has to do with tread compound, and the other has to do with constructural rigidity of the carcass.   

[sixpot]

I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.

Can you scan it?  E-mail it to me if you don't wanna post it, as I'd be very interested in reading it, and picking over the finer points!      Or when was the relevant issue - is it still on the shelves?

~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.

Low rolling resistance and long tyre life arn't directly related.  One has to do with tread compound, and the other has to do with constructural rigidity of the carcass.   

Sorry I ain't got a scanner! It was issue 1027 dated 27 Aug-2 Sept, maybe available from back issues? 
The wet handling test was the real fall-down for Michelin, with it coming position 12 out of 15.
Pirelli P Zero Y rated XL was the overall winner of the test.