DSG Help. Using it properly

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....Who said anything about me passing a driving test?

Erm - I hope you are aware that as an experienced driver, your driving must still comply with the basic minimum standards of the current driving test.  And ignorance is no excuse under British law. 

The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.

Then you have just admitted to failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle.  And I hope Mr Plod, or the insurance company don't hear about that! 

If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.

That is so anti-social.  I really hate being blinded from brake lights by inconsiderate ar$eholes when sat behind them in a stationary queue.  Again, both the Highway Code, and the drivng test are very clear.  The footbrake is ONLY to be used for slowing down and stopping the car.  It is NOT to be used for holding a car in the stationary position.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....Jonny - I think it probably says "briefly" because, as TT points out, strictly speaking if a stop is longer than 'brief' we are meant to use the handbrake but I think this is only for driving test passing purposes.

Absolutely WRONG.  The handbrake is meant to be used at ALL times when the car is stationary - driving test or not.  Any Policeman (TrafPol/RPU), and any RoSPA or IAM assessor will categorically tell you the same.

With some modern cars having DSG and Hill Assistants etc, I'm not convinced that the authorities have got up to speed on such systems yet. Isn't the original reason for insisting we use our handbrakes relating to safety on cars without such technology?

Nope.  Using handbrakes is to comply with UK road traffic legislation.  Read the manual, and just like ABS/ESP, it will clearly state that all such systems are soley as a "driver aid", and should not be relied upon, and nor should your driving be adapted to "utilise" such systems.

If you were involved in an accident, whereby a stationary vehicle was NOT held in the stationary position because of a lack of handbrake use, then you would absolutely be found either 100% liable, or found to have positively contributed to the accident!  There are NO "get-outs" for relying on driver aids!   

I used to do the same on my automatic BMW - For over 120,000 miles without a single transmission problem throughout its life.

And . . . . . . it is a completely different construction of transmission! 

Robin, perhaps you ought to read Hurdys post earlier in the thread! 

However, in using the traffic lights stop as an example, the handbook is defining "briefly" as quite a long time and such stops can be also very frequent.

Until TT puts forward different reasoning to say otherwise, I'm not convinced it's a problem.

It's your gearbox, Robin, and your wallet!  But just to clarify, the handbook does NOT describe the "traffic lights" as being "quite a long time" at all.  Of course common sense should prevail, but you method is completely at odds with any! 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

There is an important technicality here that perhaps not many people appreciate.  The DSG box 'knows' when the brake pedal is depressed with the car at rest and totally disengages the clutch.

Absolutely and categorically WRONG!

At a stationary position, the DSG does NOT completely disengage the clutch.  It is only partially engaged.  The clutch is actually held at the start of the bite point.

If you don't believe me, try a little experiment.  Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off.  Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note.  Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly.  The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring.  Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral.  The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound.  You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.

Please don't post unfounded tosh! 

You will notice that when you release the brake, there is a brief moment before the clutch starts to bite and the car start to move forward.

Nope, that "delay" is when the clutch goes from bite point to fully engaged.  A clutch is not like a switch - it does not have an "on" and an "off" position! 

Equally, when on an incline, note that the car will roll back imediately after releasing the brake before the clutch realises that the brake is off and starts to engage (obviously some use of the handbrake is required here to avoid rolling back).

Meaning what, exactly.  On any manual car (don't forget, the DSG is an automated manual), when the clutch is pressed, with the brakes released, the car WILL roll on an incline - irrespective of weather the box is in gear or neutral.

The ONLY reason the clutch starts to engage and take up full drive is down to two specific instructions to its' ECU - (a) the selector lever is in a "gear" position (ie, D, S, R, or manual/tip mode position, and NOT in N or P), and (b) it is receiving NO signal from the brake pedal switch!  Weather the car is on an incline, or is totatlly flat - it has jack schit to do with controlling the DSG ECU.

Anyway, this all suggests to me that there is absolutely no danger in leaving the car in D with the foot on the brake for as long as required.

Sorry, but that is blatantly WRONG.  I suggest you monitor the DSG oil temp then!

Having said that, however, I do personally shift to N but this is force of habit as I have done this for all my cars.........manual, auto and now DSG!

Correct, and good sound advice. 

[RedRobin]

....Who said anything about me passing a driving test?

Erm - I hope you are aware that as an experienced driver, your driving must still comply with the basic minimum standards of the current driving test.  And ignorance is no excuse under British law. 

The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.

Then you have just admitted to failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle.  And I hope Mr Plod, or the insurance company don't hear about that! 

If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.

That is so anti-social.  I really hate being blinded from brake lights by inconsiderate ar$eholes when sat behind them in a stationary queue.  Again, both the Highway Code, and the drivng test are very clear.  The footbrake is ONLY to be used for slowing down and stopping the car.  It is NOT to be used for holding a car in the stationary position.

....I have no doubt that, technically in the eyes of the written law, you are correct. However, I do not see how being stationary in D and with foot on brake but handbrake off, is "failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle" in reality. I have been in this state many, many times with a Police car behind me and never been stopped for a word as a consequence. Just because something is written in law doesn't make it correct - For example, we all know that in many conditions, 80 mph on a motorway is perfectly safe in an appropriate vehicle but the law says 70 mph.

It's very simple to avoid any irritation you may feel when behind someone like me with their brake lights on - Just don't stare at the lights - You should be looking further ahead anyway in order to assess the overall situation.

Now I shall go and read the physical reasons for not doing so as in your other post.......

[Max Q]

If you don't believe me, try a little experiment.  Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off.  Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note.  Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly.  The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring.  Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral.  The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound.  You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.

This is true. Another way to prove this is go into your MFD menu, go to units and select the fuel consumption units to l/100km, then go back out of the menu and scroll to the instantaneous fuel consumption display. You now have a reading of fuel consumption in l/hr when the car is stationary (this value changes to l/100km when the car is in motion). Try the above experiment again and you will see that when in neutral with the a/c off you get a reading of about 1.0l/hr, now put the car into D and hold it on the brakes and you'll get a reading of around 1.3l/hr. So it becomes clear that the engine is under load when in D and held on the brakes, and it's using more fuel too!

[RedRobin]

There is an important technicality here that perhaps not many people appreciate.  The DSG box 'knows' when the brake pedal is depressed with the car at rest and totally disengages the clutch.

Absolutely and categorically WRONG!

At a stationary position, the DSG does NOT completely disengage the clutch.  It is only partially engaged.  The clutch is actually held at the start of the bite point.

If you don't believe me, try a little experiment.  Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off.  Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note.  Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly.  The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring.  Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral.  The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound.  You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.

....Well, I fully expected your posted experiment (TT) to be the case when I went out and tested it numerous times for my own education. To my complete surprise, the rev counter didn't even flicker and didn't change its revs nor engine sound whether I selected D, N, or P (with the handbrake off in all cases). I really wasn't looking to contradict your post.

Is your GTI a DSG or Manual version, TT?

The only circumstances which change my car's revs/engine sound when stationary is use of the aircon unit.

Unless it's a very cold start, I rarely "feel a slight jolt" when a gear or neutral is selected.

[Saint Steve]

Can someone tell me if im not ment to hold my foot on the brake pedal on a hillstart, and pull the handbrake , then put it in neutral!!!!, what a farse!!!!, by time ive put it back in D, released the handbrake,without making the dsg make an almighty clunk,without pi$$ing peeps off taking ages to pull away!.  id rather hold my foot on the brake in half the time .If they get blinded by my brake lights then they are obviously sat too close to my a$$!. tough titties in my book.

Someone else with dsg, put car in N or Park for a hillstart, pull up handbrake and then when the lights go green, you try and pull away without making yourself look a complete tit! 

[MervMan]

Hey Phil

On a hill I simply hold the foot-brake and pull up the handbrake- and leave the transmission in drive.

Then as I release the foot-brake and the clutch engages I release the handbrake and presto- move off without rolling backwards.

Think that's what is recommended in the owners manual!

[Saint Steve]

yes, but doing that method, the car is still trying to eat the brake pads/discs, and doesnt do the brakes or handbrake anygood, you might aswell drive with your handbrake on!!!.
If your leaving it in D whilst the handbrake is ON on a hill, the engine and gearbox are now straining!!!!.If you have it in the handbook, then post it, this should be interesting....

[Saint Steve]

ok reading the drivers handbook.....

with a gear engaged,take your foot from the brake and depress the accelerator

If you have to stop the vehicle on a gradient,always hold the vehical in position using the FOOT brake to stop it from rolling back

Well there it clearly states in the handbook, page 117 in the warning section.

Sorry but i shall be holding my foot on the pedal!!, and if T.T you see a DSG badge on a rear of a GTi,  then back off to avoid blindness! 

It goes onto say.......
do not use the accelerator as a form of holding the vehicle stationary on a hill as it will cause the DSG box to overheat and cause damage

My method is always been, steep hill,hold with foot brake. When lights turn green, quickly pull up handbrake to stop car from rolling back and the release as you press the go pedal.