ED30 short write up.

[Rhyso]

i understood what you meant hence why i said they would lose sales if everyone knew the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 as people would save the 7K and buy an ED30 instead of the S3. 

my post wasn't clear enough lol

[phope]

As the press releases contradict either school of thought about the Edition 30 engine,

I don't agree that the press releases contradict at all.

OK, so there may be an element of ambiguity, but Audi clearly state upgraded engine internals, whereas VW make no such mention.  However, VW clearly mention that the method of increased power in the Ed30 comes from "a revised engine management programme".  You would have thought that IF the Ed30 DID have uprated internals, then VW would be shouting from the tree tops to make that particular point very clear.

Another thing, whilst you all know my lack of "allegience" towards Superchips, I have great faith in the technical accuracy of Volkswagen Driver.  The PDF of the Ed30 Bluefin as tested by Volkswagen driver also makes it very clear that the Ed30 does NOT share the same uprated engine internals of the S3.

I guess the way to confirm either way is to compare part numbers of say, cylinder head, from 4 models, using info direct from VW, Audi and Skoda dealers

GTI, GTI Edition 30, S3 and Cupra

I guess the "Skoda" bit was a typo!  But yes, I agree.  However, even then, I express some reservations, as it is fairly common for VW and Audi to either give out incorrect part numbers, not give them out at all, and even in some instances of pure muppetery - actually order completey incorrect parts.

The press releases do contradict known facts...as posted by yourself, it is already confirmed that the Edition 30 engine does have a K04 turbo, so the "revised engine management program", whilst undoubtedly part of the gains (and necessary for the different turbo), is not the sole contributing factor to a 30hp gain. In any case, VW makes no mention of the K04 in their press release...

My reluctance to place much stock on a VW press release stems from the fact that the press release  and dealer memo were obviously rushed, with little preparation...the original VW press photos were simply a LHD GTI with (badly) photoshopped wheels. Little or no information was available even through dealers when I ordered mine (a few days after the announcement) Press releases are also not written by engineers for enthusiasts...they are written by marketing departments who tailor information available to them at the time...in this case, they may have simply written the release with a headline grabbing figure of 30hp gain rather than explain in minute detail every technical change

I too have great faith in Volkswagen Driver magazine...I find it a refreshing and well written read. As part of their 2nd article on the Edition 30...

There were also some new owners who suspected that an aftermarket re-map could liberate much more than the standard 230 PS, undoubtedly inspired by the fact that the 2.0 T-FSI engine in the new SEAT Leon Cupra was rated at 240 PS. It was already known that the powerplant used for the Leon Cupra was not exactly the same 2.0 T-FSI engine as the GTI, tweaked up, but a de-tuned version of the 265 PS unit used in the new Audi S3. Could the same be true of the 230 PS unit in the GTI Edition 30...?
Indeed it was, and one of the first aftermarket tuners in the UK to get their hands on the GTI Edition 30 was Superchips, based in Buckingham. The official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing, Superchips has a long pedigree in electronic engine tuning, with more than 500,000 cars of all makes successfully modified over the last 27 years.
As soon as the Superchips engineers examined the maps in the Edition 30’s ECU in detail, they realised that they weren’t looking at a standard 2.0 T-FSI unit which had been simply tweaked. The ignition timing, boost level, injector timing and other parameters were much more akin to the basic settings used for the new S3. With its stronger engine block, upgraded bearings, stronger conrods and a different alloy for the cylinder head, as well as a bigger intercooler, different valve timing and bigger injectors, plus a revised turbo giving greater boost, Superchips had already re-mapped the S3 unit up to over 300 bhp, and there was no reason why they couldn’t do much the same to the Edition 30 GTI.

Now whilst I personally have no experience of Superchips or their engineering expertise...I read this part of VW Driver article in two ways....either the Edition 30 engine is mechanically very similar to the S3 and Cupra version,  (with strengthened internals, larger turbo, revised, cylinder head, etc) or it as you state...mechanically similar to the 200hp TFSI engine, but instead with a K04 turbo and revised engine management...VW Driver state however at the start of that quoted text that it is the former

Skoda was a typo  but I state again that the preferred way of verifying this will be to take chassis numbers of a GTI, Edition 30, S3 and Cupra, and ask a friendly dealer to confirm which parts are fitted to each car...it may only add to the confusion and may not conclusively answer the debate...but it's a start

[speedynz]

^^^^^Nicely stated^^^^^^^

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!

The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.


169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK

Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035

Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P

FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: 

The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.

Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).

The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3.  It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.

Steady Eddy, it's the weekend you should be reading the papers and luxuriating in your time off!!

One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.

Another intersting observation, and one which I expected much earlier in this discussion! 

However, I think this point of view completely misses the point on a number of issues.  Firstly, the GTI is an "iconic" badge, and if you are a true GTI fan, then you wont be tempted to an Audi.  Secondly, no matter how many ponies an Ed30 had, it still misses out on a very crucial area to the S3, namely quattro.  Finally, there is the "image" and build quality of Audis - whilst VWs are very good, they can not match that of the Audi, particularly in terms of interiors, the SatNav system, and also the sound quality (Bose really is a quantum leap better than the VW sounds).

At the end of the day, Audi, VW, Seat and Å koda all share very different "market values" and "target owners", and there is little crossover between the brands.  Who was it who tested the Seat equivalent of the GTI, and couldn't wait to hand the keys back. 

So far no one has shown conclusive evidence eitherway concerning the engine modifications to the ED30 and much as I admire and appreciate your obviously knowledgeable and thoughtful insight TT at this point in time I fail to be convinced by anybody one way or the other.

Well, if you want to believe in the "incomplete" part numbers, or ignore the very highly regarded Volkswagen Driver mag - then you will obviously find this issue inconclusive.

Who would really know and how do we contact them??

Wolfsburg, or Ingolstadt

[Teutonic_Tamer]

One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.

but equally they would also lose sales if everyone found out that the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 so a bit of a catch 22 situation

Yup, fully agree on that one too! 

[Phil mcavity]

Was me that took out a Seat Altea FR and wanted to end the test drive before i got it off there forecourt!, oh it still haunts me 

[speedynz]

I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!

The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.


169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK

Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035

Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P

FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: 

The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.

Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).

The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3.  It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.

Steady Eddy, it's the weekend you should be reading the papers and luxuriating in your time off!!

One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.

Another intersting observation, and one which I expected much earlier in this discussion! 

However, I think this point of view completely misses the point on a number of issues.  Firstly, the GTI is an "iconic" badge, and if you are a true GTI fan, then you wont be tempted to an Audi.  Secondly, no matter how many ponies an Ed30 had, it still misses out on a very crucial area to the S3, namely quattro.  Finally, there is the "image" and build quality of Audis - whilst VWs are very good, they can not match that of the Audi, particularly in terms of interiors, the SatNav system, and also the sound quality (Bose really is a quantum leap better than the VW sounds).

At the end of the day, Audi, VW, Seat and Å koda all share very different "market values" and "target owners", and there is little crossover between the brands.  Who was it who tested the Seat equivalent of the GTI, and couldn't wait to hand the keys back. 

So far no one has shown conclusive evidence eitherway concerning the engine modifications to the ED30 and much as I admire and appreciate your obviously knowledgeable and thoughtful insight TT at this point in time I fail to be convinced by anybody one way or the other.

Well, if you want to believe in the "incomplete" part numbers, or ignore the very highly regarded Volkswagen Driver mag - then you will obviously find this issue inconclusive.

Who would really know and how do we contact them??

Wolfsburg, or Ingolstadt

From a personal perspective, I did look at both qualifying brands (VW and Audi).

The VW Ed30 was $54,000 (with discounts about 18,500 pounds) the Audi was $82,000 (28,700 pounds) and there was no value comparison. I will buy what is best, taking into account ability and price. I live in a country where four wheel drive is useful and in many cases the accepted norm. I choose to run two cars to accomplish my personal needs and a 'sporty' four wheel drive will not cover both.

As for the Seat Cupra, well, it has a (very) fine engine, cold, unimaginative interior, reasonable build quality, incomplete dynamics and controversial looks. As a whole it is accomplished but misses the mark and isn't priced far enough below the Golf to consider as an alternative.   

Back to the Golf having the engine specification of the S3, well, who knows?

As you said in your post TT, Ingolstadt or Wolfsburg? I have a feeling that time will tell and it will tell that that VW (and Seat) did not 'pop' the KO4 turbo on the Edition 30 and wind up the boost but went a little further down a route that they already knew worked well but were careful not to conflict their financial interests.

You write very well.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

phope, I'll not quote your text, because I'll probably run over the 5,500 character limit! 

Firstly, regarding the offical press releases from VW and Audi, I did state there was some ambiguity.  And I can see this as being a double-edged sword.  With the Ed30 press release, does the fact that VW made no mention of the revised engine internals simply mean they are trying to "hide" (for want of a better word) an equivalent spec found on a much more expensive car in the VAG range?  Personally, I think not.  Why, because they have already stated "increased power comes from . . . . ".

I also admit that them failing to mention the "bigger turbo" may be another area of contention, but maybe there is some method or reason for this.  Speaking from a UK-only point of view, "turbos" are seen as a "dirty" word in some quarters.  Let is say a Civic Type-R (       ), and an Ed30 were giving it the beans, side-by-side on the m-way, and having some "fun"  with each other.  PC plod in his unmarked, noticed this, pulled them both over, and reported them both.  Three months later, both cases appear infront of the local beaks.  The prosecution case will use the "turbo" issue as a kind of "bad-boy" tool for making your car go faster, and if they found it had an "even bigger turbo", then you ain't gonna get any sympathy, and will be thrown to the lions.  The fact that turbo-charging is a way of increasing engine efficiency will be lost in arguements like these.  Maybe this is why VWUK (where the specific press releases come from) choose to keep that aspect quiet, just like they keep launch control quiet!  I don't have access to VWAG press, and I can't read German either!

Moving onto the photo images.  Firstly, I don't remember seeing any images of the engine internals!    Secondly, it is reasonably well known and established that any official "press" images are usually carried out based on cars of the originating market, ie, German spec LHD cars.  It is extremely rare for them to make photos for each individual market, and instead, they usually put disclaimers on them "for illustrative purposes only", or similar.

Your comment about press releases being written to "grab" "headline" figures, such as the extra 30PS - and NOT being written by engineers - I think that is a non-starter.  Firstly, VW do give engineering detail, stating something like "revision to engine management" (can't see the exact wording, 'cause it has scrolled off the bottom of the page).  Secondly, Audi also give engineering detail in their press release.

Regarding the VW Driver mag - in the first paragraph you quote, referring to the Seat Leon Cupra, it states it has a "detuned" version of the S3 engine.  That is an extremely simplistic and ambiguous statement, because to take that style of writing to the extreme, then the 150PS 2 litre FSI (non-turbo) could also be classed as a "detuned S3 motor".

The second paragraph states "Superchips . . . are the official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing".  I'm sure we all know that is utter tosh.  Superchips are the official "advertising" - NOT tuning partner to VW Racing.  Indeed, all the competators are free to use whatever "tuning maps" they wish.  Furthermore, VW Racing carry out their own "in-house" ECU tuning.

And of the final paragraph, I don't agree with you - where you state the Ed30 shares the S3 mechanicals.  However, I do agree that the more times I read it, the more confusing, and journalistically poor, it becomes.  I honestly don't think there is any specific mast to which they have pinned their flags to! 


An official Seat press release on the Cupra:

(9th November 2006)
The new 240 PS 2.0-litre T FSI engine has been considerably uprated compared with the Leon FR's 200 PS version, on which it is based.  Modifications include a larger turbocharger, reinforced pistons and engine block, strengthened connecting rods, a new ultra heat-resistant alloy for the cylinder head, plus larger injectors.


So, it seems perfectly clear to me that all the relevent manufacturers within VAG are more than capable of releasing technically accurate press releases! 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Was me that took out a Seat Altea FR and wanted to end the test drive before i got it off there forecourt!, oh it still haunts me 

Whoops, sorry to drag up your "trauma" again!  :embarassed:

Shall I arrange another appointment with your counsellor! 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Speedy, it would seem that you have to pay a much bigger premuim for Audis in NZ, compared to what we have to here in Blighty! 

I agree with your comments on the Seat.  I personally think they are fugly - and the interior is aweful!

I really don't think we will know for definate, until maybe a parts person from an official franchised stealer posts here.

However, I do see this running on and on.  Indeed, an identical situation arose, relating to the 1.8 20valve turbo engines.  When the Mk1 TT, along with the Mk1 S3 were released with 225PS as standard (an uprated internals to match!  ) - some of these eventually became "tuned" up to silly, but very reliable figures, around 380PS if I recall correctly.  Then came along the "less well informed", or those who refused to believe they had upgraded internals.  These then started to tune their standard build 1.8 20VTs to similar figures as the tuned S3/TT motors, and then wondered why they started throwing con-rods!    Looks like some people will only learn the "hard way"!