Author Topic: Retro fit Xenon's  (Read 23348 times)

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #30 on: 30 January 2007, 11:22 »
Well at the end of the day, you entitled to your opinion,

Thank-you  :smiley: .  We are all entitled to voice our "opinions", and I would be the last person standing, defending peoples' rights to do so.  However, in your posts, you have, as well as giving your opinion, tried to state issues of law.  It is that area, regarding the law, which you are very wrong, and I am offering my expertise and experience in that area to offer others who may be reading this, and thinking about taking the same route as yourself, to be given clear and frank advice, that retro-fitting of HID Xenon headlamps is illegal.

Yes, there are many other "modifications" that people do to their cars which are illegal, and some of those modifications have no effect on road safety - heck, a loud exhaust, whilst irritating to some, certainly won't cause an accident!  Dangerous, faulty, illegal, misaligned, and misused headlamps do cause accidents, and as someone who has directly experienced a near-fatality  :angry: in my own family due to the night blindness caused by the incorrect use of headlamps, this is an area close to my heart, and one which I feel passionate about  :nerd:.

I do maintain an "honesty", for want of a better word in my posts, on the absolute legal issue, but I admit my "tone" in expressing that point may seem less than friendly, to which I have already appologised to the forum.  Rather than taking the easy route of re-editing my previous posts, I will let them stay as they were, however, I again offer my appologies to the whole of the forum, including the OP, CC, for any offence or distaste caused only by the tone of my expression, but not by the facts in my posts.

but all I know is that I drove home last night, as I have done for the last couple of weeks, without anyone flashing me, or crashing as they approached me.

That is rather a hollow, and meaningless statement.  It is exactly like saying if a heroin dealer carries out his/her business without geting caught, then that too is A-OK!

If your the “vehicle technician” you claim to be, you will have noticed the pattern on the headlight beam tester might have been less pronounced that a halogen, but in no way higher of more obtrusive.

I am well versed with beam patterns, and the MoT test requirements, produced by all types of headlamp bulbs and assemblies, ranging from US DOT beams, UK sealed beams, tungsten-only filament bulbs, tungsten-halogen bulbs (ranging from the older H1, H2, H3 and H4s, through to the later better quality H7, HB3, HB4 and H11s), and the latest HID Xenon capsules (both in single beam, and dual beam or bi-Xenon).

The beam patterns you have posted in your original message would be on a par with the ancient Lucas sealed beam units, or the earlier poorly designed tungsten-only or tungsten-halogen headlamps.  The beam pattern of an H7, HB3, HB4 or H11 would be considerably better by some magnitude over what you have shown in your pictures.  The beam "intensity", or brightness, along with the "temperature", or colour (whiteness) shown in your pictures is an extremely simple indication that the light is being produced by a HID capsule.  This is blatantly obvious, and any MoT tester, along with any Police Officer from a "Roads Policing Unit", otherwise known as a traffic cop, will know of the illegal fitment of the said HID capsule.

Any accident your car may be involved in, will be deemed a contributory factor in the cause of that said accident.  Now, you may think the same could be said for OEM headlamps which were misaligned, and, providing the police, or insurance assessors could prove the misalignment, after any collision, then fine, they would have something to go on - but any kind of front end impact would invalidate any effort or attempt to prove that particular issue.  However, it is very easy to see, even after severe front end impact, of any unlawful modification to your headlamps.  Even if your headlamps were smashed to tiny pieces, there would still be the evidence available to categorically state the headlamps were unlawfully modified.  That would actually deem your insurance invalid, and you would then be personally liable for all costs from any accident, including all third party costs, and more alarmingly, now the police, fire service, ambulance and hospitals can also recover their costs from dealing with RTAs!  Think about it - is it really worth it?  Only can make the final call!


... to be continued (due to my reply exceeding the maximum post length  :huh:)
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #31 on: 30 January 2007, 11:50 »
IÂ’d bet with you if I hadnÂ’t said which car was mine of the video, you wouldnÂ’t have been able to guess, why canÂ’t you accept some work well as a retro fit.

The video proves absolutely nothing!

I cannot, and will not accept that any retro-fit HIDs work like OEM HIDs.  They are illegal!  They do not have mandatory headlamp washers, nor the mandatory highly complex fully automatic headlamp range control.  In your specific instance, the beam patterns you have produced are woefully inadequate and an MoT failure, the ballasts have no "E" type approval, I've no doubt your HID capsules also have no "E" type approval: all legal requirements!

Now IÂ’m in no way connected with the HID aftermarket industry, nor am I on commission from anyone

Hm, OK, some may give you the benefit of doubt.  Me, I'm not convinced.

Your original post rang alarm bells.  Firstly, it was written with some kind of journalist, or marketing type of style - the bit about your research, the bit about "quality kit", the bit about "the same name . . . HID'S 4U", the bit about "some didn't know the front of the car needs removing", the truly magical bit from your preferred supplier they "happened to know it did need coming off . . . even though they were BMW specialists".  Then there is "Sunny" Romford, the "personal greeting", the seemingly endless supply of "coffee", and the next - an absolute first for me - the "toasted cheese sarnies" (I never used to find time to feed myself, never mind my customers!!).  Then we find you just happen to have a camera to hand, so take a pic of the ballast install.  You take pains to express the lack of diference of the "soft start" between yours and OE.  The paragraph is bufferd with journalistic "padding", with terms like the "strange how long it takes to get dark", the "firing the Xenon's up", the "clear winter night sky", your immediate awareness of the difference - "wow what a difference", "massive amount of crisp white light", and the "Xenons pierced into the inky black...".  The real marketing killer for me though, was your statement - "I hardly found the need for main beam".  Anyone who has used genuine OEM HIDs, will know that is sheer fantasy, as the beam cut-off on HIDs is considerably more accurate, and abbrupt, than conventional halogens, and you do still need to use main beams in the appropriate conditions.  You go on with your "big test", about your concern for "blinding others", your surprising knowledge of the difference in design of headlamp lenses to the "real deal", and you are a "happy" customer (nothing wrong with being a happy customer, in isloation, but not when used with the rest of the text).

The final straw for me, was when you magically produced your photos of an MoT headlamp calibration device.  I have never come across anyone who has requested, the vast majority having zero knowledge, of beam calibration equipment.  I would go on to say that a huge majority would not have the foggiest idea regarding the correct beam pattern or alignment picure - yet you magically not only have access to this kit, you confidently photograph the evidence!  To top it all, you then went out and made a video!!!

All this detail, without anyone here asking for it!  Am I cynical?  I won't answer that  :lipsrsealed:, nor should the OP - let the rest of the fourm decide!  :undecided:

... to be continued - still (due to my reply exceeding the maximum post length  )
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #32 on: 30 January 2007, 11:51 »
and am the first to understand that retro fit HIDÂ’s are not going to be a success on every vehicle

Another "hollow" statement.

But as a Golf owner, and this being a Golf forum I thought IÂ’d share my findings with other members.

If they were impartial, and legal, then they would be welcome without detailed questioning and consternation!

IÂ’m sorry if this has in some way undermined your everyday high status on here, something you clearly have enjoyed so far.

I wasn't aware of any "status" I may, or may not have enjoyed, and I don't seek any kind of status either!

But I have no respect for someone who can pass a judgment on a product they havnÂ’t seen for themselves.

But you have posted the detail and outcome of the product, so I, along with everyone else who stumbles upon this forum CAN pass judgement.  As for loss of respect from yours truly - well, I'll just have an extra tipple to help me sleep!

And can only put over their point of view by quotes like this.

“ Do tell us again if you still think your fu*&ing mickey mouse korean $hit is legal.”

OK, - I've already given my apologies.  And the above quote is now in isolation, and taken out of the original context.

However, if you caught some low-life scum trying to peddle illegal drugs to your children at the school gates, would you not express a similar reaction.  The legality, and blatant spamming of such Xenon retro-fits has been covered a number of times in these forum, one such discussion was extremely recently.

Kind rgds
« Last Edit: 30 January 2007, 13:09 by Teutonic_Tamer »
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #33 on: 30 January 2007, 12:08 »
I'd like to see the beam stay the same height after you load the car with something heavy in the boot, and as you havent got automatic levelling, they will blind people.

It isn't just static loading, such as a bag of spuds in the boot, or the heavy weight granny in the back seat, which HIDs require compensation for - it is also, and crucially, the constant dynamic adaption of the beam height.  That is to say the pitching movement during acceleration and braking, and the gradual loss of weight from the fuel tank - is all adjusted for by the milisecond with HIDs - and they work very well indeed.  Appart from the obvious benefit from not blinding someone during harsh acceleration and heavy loads, a big safety to the driver is under heavy braking, when conventional headlamps forshorten quite considerably!  :nerd:

Teutonic_Tamer hasn't got any status on here, any more than I have.

fx/on <firmly wipes out any aspects of personal delusion> fx/off  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Only the fact he knows the law and speaks his mind.

Somewhat harshly - so I'm lead to beleive . . .  :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

Have fun with your lights,

But it'll be no fun when he gets pulled over by the law, fails the MoT, or heaven forbid causes an accident!

but Teutonic_Tamer is right and you know it.

Thanks for the support, now where is my new cheque book  :wink:  :wink:
« Last Edit: 30 January 2007, 12:49 by Teutonic_Tamer »
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline laney

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #34 on: 30 January 2007, 12:27 »
However, if you caught some low-life scum trying to peddle illegal drugs to your children at the school gates, would you not express a similar reaction.

I never knew you cared so much TT!!!  :grin: :wink: :grin:
2006 56 GTI, 3dr, Diamond Black, 18" Monza IIs, Leather, Armrest
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #35 on: 30 January 2007, 12:45 »
Sean, may i pose a question in the midst of the argument?

Sure, just make sure you form an orderly queue!  :wink:  :grin:

Clearly the self levelling function which is enforced on the xenon's is to prevent blinding people (now known as arc-eye...!!).

Yep, and also to assist in the general increased lighting performance as a whole package.

BUT, why must you have headlight washers? Cannot see why this is obligatory when lower power headlights need not have them?

I was wondering when this would be asked.  Righty, the light produced from the HID capsule is considerablely different to that produced by an incandescent filament bulb.  If you remember from my previous posts, the light is generated by an "arc" between two electrodes (in exactly the same way which lightning is generated!), rather than current being passed through a filament with a pre-determined position, glowing to produce light (and thermal heat).  Because the light produced is a very different "temperature" in Kelvin, or colour, the frequency of the actual waves of light generated are very different to incandescent or filament generated light.  Boffins somewhere agreed that whilst the HID light output was generally a better quality, and more usefull, than conventional incandescent light, any "stray" light from HIDs was proven to be far more, and aggressively (for want of a better phrase) distracting, and therefore dangerous.

OK - still with me?  :wink:  :grin:  :nerd:

Any dirt, ice, or general crap on the outer lenses, whilst obviously reducing the actual output,  can also distort (change the shape of the beam), defract (bend away from the desired path), or even refract (break down the light output into different spectrum) the light from the headlamp.  On conventional tungsten only and tungsten-halogen lights, this wasn't deemed to be a safety critical issue, but on HIDs, this was deemed to be safety critical, and dangerous when not controlled, and is why you need both auto headlamp levelers and headlamp washers for the legal "E" European Type Approval.

Rgds
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline wantmygti

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #36 on: 30 January 2007, 12:52 »
Just as i thought!

A simple physics lesson in the art of waves and prisms.

Cheers headlight bible!
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #37 on: 30 January 2007, 12:59 »
:grin:

Who would have thought that lights would have produced such a heated debate?

Heated . . . heated, nahhh, I find this quite illuminating . . .

fx/on <all groan in unison> fx/off

More importantly, how can light be both a wave and a particle?

 :tongue:

fx/on <scratches head under grey hair> fx/off

Erm, light "particle"?  I think the Cat may have his cream laced with whisky!!!  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #38 on: 30 January 2007, 13:13 »
However, if you caught some low-life scum trying to peddle illegal drugs to your children at the school gates, would you not express a similar reaction.

I never knew you cared so much TT!!!  :grin: :wink: :grin:

I could say this country is going to pot <groan>  :wink:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Retro fit Xenon's
« Reply #39 on: 30 January 2007, 13:17 »
Just as i thought!

A simple physics lesson in the art of waves and prisms.

Cheers headlight bible!

So you already knew ! ! !  Barstew. . .  And you made me work my tired, arthritic fingers to the bone!  :wink: :wink: :wink:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo