Hot Hatch World Cup

[Yusee]

The 205 will win imo.
A good mate of mine loved his 205s and Visas but then again he owned a Citroën specialist garage. So ive driven and fixed most versions   . I liked the 205 XT/XS over the GTIs i felt they were a more balanced less nose heavy.

I wanted one- a 205 XS- as my first car- because I knew I couldn’t insure a gti.
Vivid memories of test driving one with my dad 30 years ago.
Didn’t buy it in the end- a 309 xsi came up for sale so I bought that.

Fantastic little cars the 205. I love them.

And like the mk1 golf, a design classic.

It's looking like the 205 might take the win overall. Currently ahead by 10% with a day to go.

I predicted the Integrale when it was clear that modern was not the 'theme' and see it's in the final with the 205.

I'm afraid my vote went with the Integrale based on my experience driving a period rally car, not a road car.

Now that’s a proper rally car. Nice!

My brother has had 2 evo 2s, his current one he’s had for over 10 years.
I’ve driven it a few times.
Not as usable day to day, nor as enjoyable to drive- in my view- as my 205.
He disagrees on the second point. He says he’ll never sell it.

I think frankel has done this “ World Cup “ before- I came across this, on the 205- on adrianflux.co.uk-


”Testament to the car’s brilliance was summed up by journalist Andrew Frankel, writing in MotorSport in 2013.

He was looking for a cheap and fun old car to replace his under-utilised old Porsche 911 and, after mulling over a BMW 2002, early Golf GTi and a “very tempting” Alfa GTV6, it was overseeing a world cup of hot hatches that made up his mind.

“In one corner sat the Lancia Delta Integrale Evoluzione 2, in the other the rather more humble Peugeot 205 GTI,” he wrote.

“Lacking the Lancia’s power, pedigree, four-wheel drive, turbo, multi-valve head and competition pedigree I expected the Peugeot to compete only for value for money. I have rarely been more wrong. The fact is that after a couple of hours skidding around a test track it was the little Peugeot which steered better, changed gear and direction better and was, in short, the more fun to drive.”

So he bought one, a 1990 1.9-litre, in which he spent “the Christmas period dodging the floods and welding a smile to my face”.

And that’s the joy of the Peugeot 205 GTI – a car that looks great, goes like stink, and provides all the fun you could ever need.”

[AGB]

Now that’s a proper rally car. Nice!

My brother has had 2 evo 2s, his current one he’s had for over 10 years.
I’ve driven it a few times.
Not as usable day to day, nor as enjoyable to drive- in my view- as my 205.
He disagrees on the second point. He says he’ll never sell it.

I think frankel has done this “ World Cup “ before- I came across this, on the 205- on adrianflux.co.uk-

”Testament to the car’s brilliance was summed up by journalist Andrew Frankel, writing in MotorSport in 2013.

He was looking for a cheap and fun old car to replace his under-utilised old Porsche 911 and, after mulling over a BMW 2002, early Golf GTi and a “very tempting” Alfa GTV6, it was overseeing a world cup of hot hatches that made up his mind.

“In one corner sat the Lancia Delta Integrale Evoluzione 2, in the other the rather more humble Peugeot 205 GTI,” he wrote.

“Lacking the Lancia’s power, pedigree, four-wheel drive, turbo, multi-valve head and competition pedigree I expected the Peugeot to compete only for value for money. I have rarely been more wrong. The fact is that after a couple of hours skidding around a test track it was the little Peugeot which steered better, changed gear and direction better and was, in short, the more fun to drive.”

So he bought one, a 1990 1.9-litre, in which he spent “the Christmas period dodging the floods and welding a smile to my face”.

And that’s the joy of the Peugeot 205 GTI – a car that looks great, goes like stink, and provides all the fun you could ever need.”

I've not driven a 205 so can't comment but I can totally see the appeal and your passion.

I did seriously consider an Integrale at one point but as much as I like them, the practicalities of ownership stopped me.

I recall the Frankel article and you're right but in a way, it's interesting to revisit these over time to see which cars stand the test of time. Subjective of course and tinged with nostalgia but now that we're post peak hot hatch, I wonder if we'd all feel the same way in another ten years? Would a younger reviewer without the experience of having driven them in period or the memory of what cars were like before WLTP, EPAS and so on consider them to be as fun?

Whenever I have climbed into an old car, I'm reminded where progress has been made and where we've gone backwards. Steering feel is always a defining difference.

I had a play with a Cupra Born the other day. As good as it is for what it is, I doubt we'll be including it in any list of fun hot hatches in future.

[madstaff]

205 wins, but was close at 52% of the total votes.

[AGB]

205 wins, but was close at 52% of the total votes.

It was close. Yusee will be pleased. 

[Yusee]

Haha yeah- closer than I thought it would be- but the right result!

@AGB, some interesting points. It is fascinating to speculate as to how a car will be viewed in years to come- I wouldn’t be surprised if the mk7 golf is in the mix for “ greatest of all time “ when time is called on the traditional ICE hot hatch in a few years time- “ peak hot hatch “ as you call it.

I drove my brother’s integale from his home in woking to the lancia specialist in Reading once when he needed to get it serviced. The steering was heavy, and on the wrong side and the cabin noisy at anything above urban speeds. It was hard work hustling it through traffic that day. A great car but not a great hot hatch.

One important difference in driving these older cars now- as opposed to back in the day- relates to modern tyres. My 205 is on michelin PS3s. Much more stable- and as a result less fun- than when I had my first one.

[symonh2000]

I had a Fiat Coupe 16V Turbo back in the day, the same engine as in the Integrale.

Very good engine, and reliable as long as the cambelt is done every 24,000 miles. It is a short interval is due to the belt being a narrow width.

Proper old school turbo power delivery, nothing, then some lag and then the boost hits hard.

[Adam T7]

I had a Fiat Coupe 16V Turbo back in the day, the same engine as in the Integrale.

Very good engine, and reliable as long as the cambelt is done every 24,000 miles. It is a short interval is due to the belt being a narrow width.

Proper old school turbo power delivery, nothing, then some lag and then the boost hits hard.

Was the belt change an engine out job?

[symonh2000]

Not on the 16v turbo. It was on the later 20V turbo, as being 5 cylinder it was longer and the cam cover was right up against the chassis rail.

However you could undo the engine mounts, shift it over enough to get the job done without an engine removal (unofficially)

[AGB]

Haha yeah- closer than I thought it would be- but the right result!

@AGB, some interesting points. It is fascinating to speculate as to how a car will be viewed in years to come- I wouldn’t be surprised if the mk7 golf is in the mix for “ greatest of all time “ when time is called on the traditional ICE hot hatch in a few years time- “ peak hot hatch “ as you call it.

I drove my brother’s integale from his home in woking to the lancia specialist in Reading once when he needed to get it serviced. The steering was heavy, and on the wrong side and the cabin noisy at anything above urban speeds. It was hard work hustling it through traffic that day. A great car but not a great hot hatch.

One important difference in driving these older cars now- as opposed to back in the day- relates to modern tyres. My 205 is on michelin PS3s. Much more stable- and as a result less fun- than when I had my first one.

I suspect the result prompted a few people to check the classifieds. Self included. 

When I was up in Scotland last year in the TCR, I was behind a black i20N for quite a way. I was struck by how good it looked in black - they're always blue and it looked a lot smaller than I thought. It felt like a contemporary successor to the 205GTI.

You hear stories of people driving cars with heavy clutches or heavy steering as dailies. I don't know how they can enjoy it. The last time I parked something without power assisted steering, I was staggered at the low speed speed steering weight when parallel parking.

I agree with you on the MK7 - I think they hit the balance between analogue/digital if you know what I mean. I had a Taycan for a bit and the haptic touch interface was a distracting nightmare. It was tactile in terms of feedback when you touched the right area but the lack of physical controls just created this feeling of separation and required you to look at the screen. I think history will judge the transition to 'glass cockpits' badly and we'll regard cars with buttons much more favourably.

[Yusee]

@AGB,

I think VW absolutely nailed the hot hatch brief in every way with the mk7. Other than, perhaps, adding 50 more horsepower ( easily done), hard to see how it can be improved upon as a daily duties/fun to drive car.

The interior is spot on.

It’s also a fine looking car- (even the lower spec/ non performance mk7s) which I think is massively important when it comes to how a car will be remembered.

309 gti- excellent hot hatch, used in some performance driving schools iirc, because it was thought to handle better than the 205. Now forgotten because it wasn’t a looker. 205 is still a looker today, and will always make a “ best ever “ list

The existence of the clubsport S also gives serious kudos to the mk7 Gti brand. A car that held its own with the very best performance cars of any kind.

Yeah, I’d say the mk7 gti is the best hot hatch ever made- whether it will be remembered in the same way as the 205 or the mk1 golf, only time will tell