Author Topic: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti  (Read 15166 times)

Offline Snoopy

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #40 on: 05 March 2010, 20:51 »
dude... dress it up how you like.. JBL v Rainbow and focal in my car with the same set up for each.  all of which was set up by the same installers who sell all 3 brands (so no favoritism on their part), the JBLs were poop. they are what they are, and thats not high class.. im pretty shocked your even classing them as good :grin:
Im not even going to go there as you have not understood what i have said so far. Theres so much wrong with that statment for comparing A to B to X in a scientific manner.... Not to even touch the sticky subject of financial/margin reason. As i said try asking your 'friend' about the JBL models i quoted and the topics i said, you may actually learn something, thats if he even knows.  :grin:
 

« Last Edit: 05 March 2010, 21:37 by Snoopy »
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kells

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #41 on: 05 March 2010, 21:58 »
he knows matey.. oh he knows.. such a shame you dont really but lets leave it their. i know what i like the sound of, music is my thing matey.. its what i do!  im not sure what style music you are listening to via your JBL set up? but i play Techno, house and electro

i have these in my front doors and they are the best iv heard for my music styles, so clear..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RAINBOW-CS-265-25-GERMANIUM-NEW-6-5-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ120536650855QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_Speakers?hash=item1c108b5467

 i cant remember the model of the last JBL comps that were in the car but they really were pants(but loud)
and the ones my mate has in his mk4 standard doors sound worse than the factory speakers which were in the same door!

you like JBL car audio, i dont and much prefere my rainbow and focal speakers

we should leave it at that me thinks :wink:

Offline Snoopy

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #42 on: 06 March 2010, 10:54 »
he knows matey.. oh he knows.. such a shame you dont really but lets leave it their. i know what i like the sound of, music is my thing matey.. its what i do!  im not sure what style music you are listening to via your JBL set up? but i play Techno, house and electro
From experience its the people who are involved with sound who are easy fooled by the marketing guys because they don't understand the engineering behind it all (been there and done it too them in my previous job :evil:) ignorance is bliss to some, im a electronic and mechanical design engineer by trade so i know what makes a difference and what does not. As i said lookup the models i talked about (im sure you have not from your responces  as you keep saying ALL JBL caraudio is junk). Research people like Andy Wehmeyer(JBL), Gary Biggs(JBL), Mark Eldridge(ex JBL), Doug winkler(JBL acoustic engineer, so many audio patens to his name). As i said reserach the subjects i talked about too, you may find the subjects usefull in your job.
As for my own speakers im not using JBL not because there junk but because the 660GTIs were not out when i got mine.(There a name you probably not heard of). Amps again not JBL not because ther junk but because the space i had available the JBLs at the time would not have fitted but i would happily use JBL amps if i had the space. JBL do have a processor in the works i want to try out though., But what i use is not the point. The point i was trying to get across was to show your statment ALL jbl caraudio was junk was actually false.
On the subject of speakers and electronics. Others can stick with there 'exotic branded' high markup generic off the shelf non linear motor designs with cheap ass cones, and your marketing hyped up exotic 'superior' products both accoustic and electronic. I will go with Engineering, superior install techniques and tuning over marketing anyday.
May i ask the name of your 'friend' as i may know him as there is a few people involved with caraudio that do actually know the things i was talking about and the ones that do i normally know, or know of.

As you said lets leave it there as we are simply going round the same stuff over and over again. I will shut the f**k up now on this thread :lipsrsealed:
« Last Edit: 06 March 2010, 11:38 by Snoopy »
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kells

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #43 on: 06 March 2010, 12:15 »

On the subject of speakers and electronics. Others can stick with there 'exotic branded' high markup generic off the shelf non linear motor designs with cheap ass cones, and your marketing hyped up exotic 'superior' products both accoustic and electronic. I will go with Engineering, superior install techniques and tuning over marketing anyday.



i really dont see how you can say Rainbow are classed as this, hand made in germany with certificates????  have you ever owned raindow gear, even has the guys signature on the box and name who made them.. i like that.  just a class above, not only the sound but all so the build quality, i would argue that the JBL stuff is generic "off the shelf" as you say, and i bet your bottom doller its made in the far east in massive numbers.


my mate is called donney mckenzie, from leeds, he has worked all over, he worked at unicar in leeds and a number of ohter places, he is the one that introduced me to focal then rainbow, but he is the type of guy that dont care, he is soooo laid back and if you met him you would know that he did not and would not try cloud mine or anyones mind.. i really am going by my own exp and those of people i know. maybe its my style of music which is why i ask what you listen to?

and just to finish, i only ever use american amps, loved the original PNCH series, and the early Xtants, also like the Pheonix gold amp i have now, its got some right punch!!!

Don gave me (yes gave me) a BIG Kenwood recently, now im not usually a fan of kenwood car audio as i see it as  a bit of a market label as you say but this amp is immense, cant remember the model number without looking but it sounds good and is very loud, it has 2 seperate amps built into one shell.. i do rate it¬
« Last Edit: 06 March 2010, 12:17 by kells »

Offline Snoopy

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #44 on: 06 March 2010, 12:24 »
i really dont see how you can say Rainbow are classed as this, hand made in germany with certificates????  have you ever owned raindow gear,
Please read my previous posts about myself and rainbow i know the company very very well and know who started it and why.
Quote
Don gave me (yes gave me) a BIG Kenwood recently, now im not usually a fan of kenwood car audio as i see it as  a bit of a market label as you say but this amp is immense, cant remember the model number without looking but it sounds good and is very loud, it has 2 seperate amps built into one shell.. i do rate it¬
If its from 1990 or older, square and black thats a KAC-1020 around 1990 to 1993, square and black that would be a KAC-1021. from 1993,oblong and white that will be a KAC-1023. I have been round caraudio a while :grin:

Anyway i said i would shut up so this is my last and final post on this thread.
  :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
« Last Edit: 06 March 2010, 12:34 by Snoopy »
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kells

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #45 on: 06 March 2010, 15:11 »
then you should know rainbow are not of the shelf so to speak..

anyhow before you go let me just nip outside and look at model number of this amp, im currently using it in place of my pheonix gold, at first i didnt think it sounded as nice as the PG, still not sure but man its loud and does sound pretty decent for kenwood.. id like to hear your views on it


this is it, he gave me this for FREE!!


http://www.kenwood-electronics.co.uk/products/car/amplifiers/KAC-8452/details/


Offline Snoopy

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #46 on: 06 March 2010, 16:09 »
Last post then :smiley:
As i said its an off the shelf generic motor design they use. Nothing special and not optomised.
The amp, sorry i misunderstood you when you said two amps in one case when people normally say that they meen two mono amps in one case.
An Amplifiers 'sound', Its probably not a good idea to get me started on that one i don't have time for the argument that im sure this will start. :grin: and you seem to not have grasp what i have said so far and this is alot more indepth.
Amplifiers are an electronic device. The human hearing system is not that acurate to distinguise between very small differences listening to music when an amplifier is used in its linear range. Yes you can measure component differences on the bench but can the human ear/brain hear them with music? from the scientific data I used to have to work from and read about not until certain high levels of difference are achieved because of the ear brain system is not that accurate!. But thats a large can of worms topic in the audio world because everyones been blinded by marketing. :wink: I can hear the responces now :grin:
In electronics we think of an amplifier as a linear system so unless one of the following is different or not within known human brain/ear tolerances as a designer you can ignore any difference as the end user will not hear one when the amplifier is used below clipping in its linear range playing music. Linear system theory dictates that the following,
Gain, Power, Frequency responce(magnitude and phase), noise, input and output impedance, distortion, chanell seperation dictate the sound of an amplifer device. If these measure the same within certain human ear/brain tolerances the two devices will sound the same playing music.
Some of the tolerances i remember off the top of my head are channel seperation greater than 30dB from 20Hz-20kHz. (don't know an amp that does not do this). Noise (noise floor, on/off pops due to dc offset etc), Gain (channels matched within +-0.05dB), Distortion (2% THD 20hz-20Khz (with music))

So your probably shouting at the screen now saying you hear a difference right?[/ :grin:
Let me tell you why. One of the criteria for a linear system is different between the two amps you have tried.
You can either hear a level change/a power change (most likley cause is as 0.25dB makes people think that one sounds better(oldest trick in the book :evil:)
It might have a different frequency responce. (bass boost etc). FR can tamed with a good eq.
Noise floor (hiss) on/off pops etc.
Gain. It may have more gain on one channel than another or a channel phase inverted, were the other amp does not.
Power it may have more power below clipping/distortion.
Input and output impedance is effecting the amps output frequency responce (its what tube amps do :wink:)

Best way to think about it is why do amplifier manufactueres only test certain criteria at the end of a production line :wink: were as audiophiles say this and that make a difference? Marketing men often dictate to designers what parts they want using because they have a certain following, a certain brand of wire, certain brand opamps, etc not because theres actually a engineering reason for them but because it helps the marketing men sell! :wink:
Better reasons to buy one brand over another is Build quality, aftersales service, resale value, image(the type the brand gives you not the audio kind :grin:), reliability.

Anyway i hear EVERYONE now screeming at there screen saying im an idiot and know nothing.  :grin:

I should now really stop before i get linched :grin:
« Last Edit: 06 March 2010, 16:45 by Snoopy »
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kells

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #47 on: 06 March 2010, 16:20 »
im no expert on amps dude i just wondered what you thought of the one i posted, if you are familiar with it that is? i wasnt looking to argue about amps what so ever

on a side not do you know of a brand called CROWN for club instaltions, i have one of these in the studio, its the american version before they sold out and build in china!!  the amp was re built by stan at surry amps (http://www.surreyamps.co.uk/)   to a very very high standard and im sorry but it just sounds superb against the old qsc i ran, im not sur ei totally understand all you have said which im sure is true, but each manufacturer of amps does have a different sound, and im not talking about loudness if that makes sense?

Offline Snoopy

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #48 on: 06 March 2010, 16:26 »
I have no experience with that model kenwood, I stopped running kenwoods in around 95.
Yes, I know crown, The reason it sounds different is because one of the criteria of a linear system has been changed when it was altered to a level that changes the way the human ear/brain system hear it, thats all manufacturer designers do :wink:

Anyway i think that concludes this discussion Im leaving the thread before the audiophile linch mob arrives :grin:
I must shut up now on this thread.  BYE! :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
« Last Edit: 06 March 2010, 16:53 by Snoopy »
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Offline DanoGTI

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Re: Simple Amp Build, In Mk3 Gti
« Reply #49 on: 06 March 2010, 18:40 »
Crown stuff is fantastic - sublime even. I use Crown Macrotech Reference stuff when I'm in studios (usually matched to ATC SCM300s or BIG Genelecs) - not heard many of the club systems though...

Will have to go and have a listen :smiley:

Dan

PS good call on the Control 5s  :cool: I got 3 pairs dotted around the house :wink:


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