MK5 GTI - Cambelt

[Teutonic_Tamer]

what point are you proving by asking for figures.. 

Huh, who is that comment directed to? 

tbh, i think your barking up the wrong tree.. if you seriously have a problem with the way the vehicle is manufactured, then go to germany and see for yourself or make it yourself, THEN YOU can set the bounderies and take the flack when it all goes wrong.. thats the only way youll undertsand or apparently be happy.

Agreed.  Dispite the fact that we all occasionally b!tch and moan about little niggles on our Dubs, I still have great faith in German engineering.  German engineering is still way better than the vast majority of Jap stuff.  And as for Yankie 'engineering' - well they just don't.  I used three different new cars when I was in the US/CDN a few years back - and boy, they were all crocks of shyte - Jeep Grand Cherokee (without doubt - THE worst car I have ever driven - a Kia is better), Chevrolet Blazer (better than the Jeep, but gutless, unrefined, and an interior of extreme tackiness), and a Chevvy Cavalier - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Cavalier (if I had passed a car crusher, I would have gladly let them put a brand new car straight in it  )

If you think its over priced thats your opinion, I personaly would only be bothered by price if i had a touren or touareg...

Yup.  The Tregs are a bit pricy though!  Is you dealership doing a 'buy one, get one free' on the Treg?  At my local, if you buy a Treg, they give you a free Polo Match! 

Maybes your next car should be a Polo, everything dead cheap on them...

Do they still do the Polo GTI?  Don't really see many about?

Oh, and don't forget, most Polos come with either Matador or Kumho shyte tyres! 

[smartypants]

what point are you proving by asking for figures.. 

tbh, i think your barking up the wrong tree.. if you seriously have a problem with the way the vehicle is manufactured, then go to germany and see for yourself or make it yourself, THEN YOU can set the bounderies and take the flack when it all goes wrong.. thats the only way youll undertsand or apparently be happy.
If you think its over priced thats your opinion, I personaly would only be bothered by price if i had a touren or touareg...
Maybes your next car should be a Polo, everything dead cheap on them...

Agree. Its supposed to be a high end car, so it will naturally have high end prices and running costs. I prefer it, it keeps the riff raffs from owning one

[smartypants]

I like this TT guy!


(only TT i'll ever like though )

[ub7rm]

Holy multiple quoting batman (doing it makes my head sore).  My final points I think....

To clarify my position:

I don't / never agreed with the 120k change.  I don't know if that is a world wide change recommendation or not - I know it is whats stated in my service book.  I don't know if the mileage aspect has been revised downwards or not.  I would certainly hope it has.

What I do know is that VW has recently issued guidelines that the belt should be replaced after 4 years.  This is what I consider unnecesserily conservative on VW's part and is a move designed -IMO- to make sure the caring owners who will often be the original owners get it done at a VW dealership.  In otherwords I think this is a move designed to increase their turnover.  I don't believe there is a sound engineering reason behind the 4 years.  Albeit 4 years is pretty close to the 5 years I would think is sensible.

I think we shall agree to differ on this but reinforcement for my argument comes from the fact that it was a VW UK decision to change to 4 years - not Wolfsburg.

I strongly disagree with your comment that it is only VW UK who have downwards revised to the 4 year mark!

Call VW UK and ask them if they took the decision to change this independantly or if they were told to change this by VW Germany

That's your call, not mine.  I certainly don't have any 'problem' with VW UK revising a wildy stupid 120k interval.  

But in all honesty, being as "Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Limited" (which covers VW UK, Audi UK, etc) are a 'wholly owned subsidiary' of "Volkswagen AG" - I honestly doubt that VW UK would be any different to Germany - because the cars all use bits from the same parts bins.

I agree they are all the same.  So why has wolfsburg not issued this instruction?  Because -IMO- it was a VWUK marketing decision, not a technical one.

Now you are taking me out of context by mis-quoting me!  

Didn't mean to, sorry.

Even if you pushed it to 6 years I don't think the rubber is going to degrade that much.  CAVEAT - you don't drive like a nob, granny or anything other than a sensible person on average milage.  I'M IN NO WAY SUGGESTING you should leave it for 6 years.

I honestly think you'll be surprised just how badly rubber is affected by aging.  Go and look at tyres on a caravan site, or even at an caravan dealer forcourt - many tyres will be knackerd from age-cracking of the surface of the sidewall and tread area, yet they may still have a full 8mm of tread.  And if you ever change these types of tyres, the rubber on the outer surface can crumble off on the tyre changer, yet on the inside of the tyre (which hasn't been affected by ozone, UV radiation, etc) will still look brand new.

UV is the main issue in a non industrial setting for rubber ageing, and this is why I feel that the ageing is not a major issue after 4 years.

As the old saying goes, 'if in doubt, it is better to be safe than sorry' .  

Cant argue with that 

If they were nylon belts I could see the sense but ASFAIK they are not (on the 2.0T FSI anyway).

WTF are you on about?   Timing belts have NEVER used nylon - have you been wearing your grannies tights?    All timing belts use continuous strands of kevlar or aramid as a strengthening 'spine', and are simply encased in rubber.  But the teeth are generally devoid of any continuous reinforcement - which is why the teeth shear off.

I stand corrected - but the comment came from my understanding that GM tried a nylon/plastic belt.  They would snap after 30k aparantly and were swiftly bined. 

Ah, now you have got that wrong!  The GM issue wasn't the actual belt (they still had the kevlar) - the 'nylon issue' was simply the idler rollers.  They actually tried to use a nylon/plastic composite 'working surface' on the idler rollers - and whilst the reasons behind their use was sound, when they failed, they failed big time.  The rollers basically 'exploded' without any warning, and without any 'logic' either.  The worst engine to be affected was the 1.8 X18XE1 - used in virtually every Vauxhall/Opel product.  I have changed many GM nylon rollers at 40k miles, and they look perfect (even when chemically cleaned and inspected under a magnifying glass) - yet the few I changed at 60k looked quite scary, basically riddled with virtually microscopic cracks.

But AFAIK, VAG never used nylon in their cam belt rollers.

Fair enough, I stand corrected. 

Thanks to long life servicing VW are not seeing as much service related monies coming through the door and have changed the belt schedule to generate a bit more cashflow.

That is just a cynical, ill-informed POV.

I'll come back to that - its the essence of my whole standpoint.

Have I missed sommat then?  

Maybe?  See above - I don't believe there is technical justification for a 4 year change.  I accept what you say about preventative maintenance and that its no use locking the door after the horse has bolted.  I understand that.  But in every situation there is risk and consequence.  I feel that VW UK is being over conservative.  I think leaving your cambelt for 5 years is fine and that VW have suddenly swung from a position giving great marketing incentives to fleet customers (120k no time limit) to one that unjustly prejudices private owners (who are likely to keep their car for 4 years) or even make them think its time to get a nice new car rather than a £1k service bill....

I appreciate some of you are taking the safe road without question, and in the words of our resident philosopher, ETTO, hail mary etc.  But if VW changed it to 3 years?  2 years?  would you still blindly follow this advice without question?  Maybe wonder why this change in schedule has not been implemented world wide?

You still have no proof that 'worldwide' VWs interval is still 120,000 miles!       

I never claimed the 120k miles was a world wide thing, I just know thats what it states in my service booklet.

Huh - I thought you DID claim it was worldwide?  Anyway . . . . flogging a dead horse and all that!

I think there might be some misunderstanding here.  I don't know or care whether the rest of the world is on the 120k change schedule.  I do know that the decision to impose the 4 year change limit was a UK one - not worldwide.  As you say its the same belts on all cars.  Why is the UK air so detrimental to cambelts vs the rest of the world? 

[ub7rm]

If it is the case that belts are now failing earlier than expected and there is a sound technical reason why VW have implemented this change then you still have to ask the question why are VW now churning out shyte belts?  Why are we taking a step backwards here?

First, Volkswagen do NOT make timing belts.  They use ContiTech, probably one THE most highly regarded timing belt manufacturer in the world! 

Next, VWs own 120,000 miles change interval was just pure 'pigs might fly' - simply to artificially create to the motoring press and fleet managers of how cheap their cars were to maintain.  Once the Mk5 Golf GTI, and all the associated TFSI engine users 'honeymoon period' was over with the press and fleet managers - then VW sensibly revised their cam belt change intervals to co-incide with the industry standard norms.

Exactomundo.......except I don't agree that 4 years is appropriate - driven by marketing/sales rather than technical reasons.  If there is a new milage limit of 60k then I agree this is good.

But you still completely miss the point.  A cam belt change is . . . .

'preventative maintenance' ! ! ! !

So we shouldn't believe VW when they say to change at 120k but we should when they say 4 years?  I hope that isn't ill informed cynacism 

Interesting train of thought!  But personally, I had absolutely no doubt that 120k was unreasonable - so I never believed it anyway.  And 4 years isn't a big deal to me either.

And I think that it is common knowledge in the independent motor trade that 120k is really fairy-tale suggestions, simply to 'suck in' prospective new car owners with the (unreasonable) suggestion of low maintenance costs.  Because lets face it, how many 'first owners' (ie orginal owner on the cars V5) actually make it any where near 100k miles, let alone 120k miles.  Those kinds of mileages will usually be 2nd, 3rd, 4th ect owners.  And even with the more suitable and reasonable 60k change, then the vast majority will still be in the 2nd hand market, so still not affecting the orignal owner.

At the end of the day, I just think that the vast majority of the motoring public simply think that modern cars are actually 'maintenance free' - and so when they get advised of an 'expensive job' like a cam belt, they get all ar$ey.  Just ask yourself how many of your neighbours you can actually see lifting their bonnets every weekend to check their fluids, and once a month to check their tyre pressures and exterior lights? 

Now we're cooking with gas 

4 years is designed to make the first time buyers go the dealer to do the work.  Or buy a new car.  At 5 years you might be a second owner or taking it to an indy.  Again this is my issue with 4 years.  Its not based on engineering, its based on marketing/sales.

The thing is we seem to be in broad agreement that 5 years / 60k is sensible.

My issue is not at all with those who want to play it safe, especially with such a critical part.  I fully accept and agree that changing the belt early is a good thing....but lets not go nuts.

Fairy-nuff.  But I still don't think that 4years is going 'nuts', especially when you discover the true history of some of these motorpoint and other GTI imports.

4year cambelt change - nuts? No.  Cautious? Yep.

5years would be better - but at the risk of still allowing a high proportion to slip through the net, and not actually get done until the 6year/60k service.  Beyond that, and it is a slippery slope.

My issue is with VW changing to 4 years.

Then VW are damned if they do, damned if they don't!

So what if they just left it at 120k miles, and just said 'fcuk-em' to anyone whos belt went?

Maybe the real crux of the issue is that VW Germany now have some 'real world' data (rather than artificial test labs), and it is showing that the belts are failing maybe around the 60k, 70k, or even 80k mark.  So even if the belts were letting go at 80k - then to downwards revise it to 60k miles would still be cutting it way to fine.  Afterall, I'm sure we all know that when a cam belt fails, it is catastrophic.  But it is very different for a spark plug or air filter - so what if a spark plug fails?  OK, you may get a misfire, or you might even get the MIL on, and need a tow-truck.  The damage to your wallet will only be the very same cost of the spark plugs - a major difference to the effects of a cam belt failure.

At the end of the day, us mere minions will never know the exact reasons why they decided on 4 years - but we should all at least be glad they have actually been sensible enough to be proactive, even if it does add an extra £300 every 4 years to our maintenance bills. 

Yes they are now being more realistic, but its gone from the sublime to the ridiculous.

In your experience, as a retired mechanic, how many timing belt failed at or around 4 years (lets assume normal milage) and negating outside influences like oil, failure of some other part.  I'm talking about plain wear and tear?  I suspect none.

None, absolutely none.

But again, you miss the fundamental issue.  Relying on 'experience', if I were to say, test spark plugs, and I tried to run them for 100k miles - then I might say find they were failing at 80k miles.  So, reacting to that, first, no other damage was done to the engine, and only the plugs themselves were affected (appart from the associated inconveniences of failed plugs) - I then decide to downgrade the miles.  Knowing that they failed at 80k, I might say that to lower it to 70k would be pushing it a little close (to account for any 'rogue' plugs that might fail at 70k) - so I change it to 60k miles.  So all things considered and duly amended - I happily run for years, covering multiples of 60k miles plug changes, but still get an occasional plug failure.  This isn't really a problem.

So looking at the fundamental issues between spark plugs and cam belts - when one fails, it is catastropic, but the other is just a minor inconvenience.  Another issue is the ease of changing cam belts and spark plugs.  Most reasonably competent peeps would not have any probs changing their own plugs, even at half the recommended schedule (just like many do with oil changes) - but how many 'home mechanics' will do a cambelt change?  The vast majority will shy away, and either send it to the stealer, or to an indpendent garage.

I completely understand what you are saying here re preventative maintenance.  Its no use changing when its broken.  But there is a sensible time to change and there is one desinged to make more money.  I think VW UK have chosen to make a little more money.

Thats why I think they are treating the customers harshly here by "forcing" them to change their belts - at not insignificant cost - earlier than strictly necessary.

I don't really see any 'force' being used.  And at the end of the day, then technically, every single item changed during routine maintenance is 'earlier than strictly necessary'!    But how many peeps do you hear whinging about having their brake pads changed, when they still have 2 or 3 mil of friction lining left? 

Yes I know, I'm not suggesting VW are goose-stepping into our living rooms, but it will tug on the heart strings on the caring owners who typically buy a car brand new privately.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Time to put this thread to bed, me-thinks! 

  

[duffy78]

ive got an 05 gti, was thinking about getting the cam belt done later in the year,

what else would you recommend i get done at the same time? water pump etc?

duffy

[RedRobin]

ive got an 05 gti, was thinking about getting the cam belt done later in the year,

what else would you recommend i get done at the same time? water pump etc?

duffy

....T_T recommended the whole cambelt kit (not just the belt component), the waterpump, and the fuel filter. I took his advice at just over 60k miles and 3.7 years.

[No Golf Clubs at all]

  so we are all agreed that vw uk are robbing, thieving, scaremongering barstewards then? And cos we all know that prevention is better than cure we will all just goose step down to the dealers and hand them £400 ?   

God I love this forum he he he

[RedRobin]

  so we are all agreed that vw uk are robbing, thieving, scaremongering barstewards then? And cos we all know that prevention is better than cure we will all just goose step down to the dealers and hand them £400 ?   

....Er, no!

Most of the VW dealers are doing this job for £290. Having had a cambelt go on a BMW I can assure you it is expensive - The engine was rebuilt as a consequence.
Cars have maintenance costs - End of story.