GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: wps on 29 September 2008, 12:43
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Wat is the difference between the current 2.0T FSI engine on the golf MKV and the 2.0 TSI engine in the scirocco. thanks
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For a start, the air intake is different. I expect T_T might be along soon to elaborate further.
This is the current first engine in the Scirocco : -
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Scirocco/Scirocco_11.jpg)
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The new "Mk6" engine is a completely different unit, and shares no components with the current Mk5 GTI lump. It has a completely different block/crankcase, with different cylinder spacing, for more reliable and consistent cooling, and therefore improved emissions.
However, the fundamental difference between the Mk5 and Mk6 engines are the arrangement of drive for the camshafts. On the current Mk5 GTI, it has a belt driven exhaust camshaft, and these cam-belts are a real bast@rd to change.
This newest Mk6 GTI engine, which is now available in the new Rocco as RR indicated, is basically the Audi developed unit. It has chain-only driven camshafts (fully maintenance free), along with variable valve timing for both intake and exhaust (the Mk5 only has VVT for the intake). Furthermore, it also has selective "valve-lift", which is a little similar to Hondas V-tec system, but considerably more refined. The turbo has also been repositioned for easier access too.
Regarding the actual naming of the engine, because all VW / Audi high performance petrol engines are now made (or will be!) with cylinder direct fuel injection, the FSI acronym is now superflous. Therefore, the TSI acronym will now be used.
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
....The trouble with information like that is that if you have the previous version engine, you feel that there was something wrong with it!
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
....The trouble with information like that is that if you have the previous version engine, you feel that there was something wrong with it!
VAG have changed the design for a reason. I have the AXX engine (65k) and I took off the HPFP I few weekends ago. Pleased to report there is no sign of wear on the cam lobe or follower. I should add that the engine is fitted with the 2 piece cam.
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The new "Mk6" engine is a completely different unit, and shares no components with the current Mk5 GTI lump. It has a completely different block/crankcase, with different cylinder spacing, for more reliable and consistent cooling, and therefore improved emissions.
However, the fundamental difference between the Mk5 and Mk6 engines are the arrangement of drive for the camshafts. On the current Mk5 GTI, it has a belt driven exhaust camshaft, and these are a real bast@rd to change.
This newest Mk6 GTI engine, which is now available in the new Rocco as RR indicated, is basically the Audi developed unit. It has chain-only driven camshafts (fully maintenance free), along with variable valve timing for both intake and exhaust (the Mk5 only has VVT for the intake). Furthermore, it also has selective "valve-lift", which is a little similar to Hondas V-tec system, but considerably more refined. The turbo has also been repositioned for easier access too.
Regarding the actual naming of the engine, because all VW / Audi high performance petrol engines are now made (or will be!) with cylinder direct fuel injection, the FSI acronym is now superflous. Therefore, the TSI acronym will now be used.
TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?
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TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.
....The clue is in T_T's signature :wink:
[A great big spliff!] :evil:
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TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.
....The clue is in T_T's signature :wink:
[A great big spliff!] :evil:
Me CANNO NO CEE MON, ALL ZE SMOKE, Puff puff pass !
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
I think that is slightly irellevant though. Because my RS4, along with the R8, and RS6 V10 biturbo all use the inlet cam to drive the FSI pump - and you should see the monster pumps on the RS6. :shocked:
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The new "Mk6" engine is a completely different unit, and shares no components with the current Mk5 GTI lump. It has a completely different block/crankcase, with different cylinder spacing, for more reliable and consistent cooling, and therefore improved emissions.
However, the fundamental difference between the Mk5 and Mk6 engines are the arrangement of drive for the camshafts. On the current Mk5 GTI, it has a belt driven exhaust camshaft, and these are a real bast@rd to change.
This newest Mk6 GTI engine, which is now available in the new Rocco as RR indicated, is basically the Audi developed unit. It has chain-only driven camshafts (fully maintenance free), along with variable valve timing for both intake and exhaust (the Mk5 only has VVT for the intake). Furthermore, it also has selective "valve-lift", which is a little similar to Hondas V-tec system, but considerably more refined. The turbo has also been repositioned for easier access too.
Regarding the actual naming of the engine, because all VW / Audi high performance petrol engines are now made (or will be!) with cylinder direct fuel injection, the FSI acronym is now superflous. Therefore, the TSI acronym will now be used.
TT, how do you know all this? Do you work for VW?
To know this one has to be inside.
I just have official press access for all of the VAG marques (including the "big boys" - Lambo, Bentley and Bugatti), and also pay for erWin technical info too. The erWin stuff aint cheap though! :embarassed: Oh, I also have ETKA, but keep that quiet! :wink:
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
That is one of the $64,000 questions. Yes, it does have a number of improvements over the current 2.0TFSI engine (found in the current GTI and Ed30, to name just a few).
Some of the more important features.
The actual distance between the cylinders is now slightly larger - this allows for a larger volume of water in the coolant passages, and also allows for larger bore (which creates improved torque compared to smaller bores), and larger valves. All of this means that major improvements in engine efficiency - leading to lower CO2 emissions, and fewer visits to the V-Power pumps too. And for countries such as the UK which use emissions based taxations, this will then lead to lower tax bills.
The drive mechanism for the camshafts is also completely new, and is basically derrived from the V8 engine first used in the B6 S4. On the current GTI/Ed30 engine, it uses a rubber/kevlar timing belt. These timing belts are a "maintenance item", and on all models of the Mk5 platform (Golf V GTI/Ed30, Audi S3, Audi TT2, Å koda Octavia II vRS, and the Seat Leons), it is a real arse to change, because the right engine mount can not be fully removed - making access to the belt a royal pain in the arse. Think of the sidelamp bulbs in Golf V Xenons, and you should get the picture. On the new "Mk6" GTI engine, the rubber band belt has been ditched in favour of a much slimmer timing chain. This is completely maintenance free (providing you change your oil regularly with quality VW approved brews), and because chains are about a third of the width of a timing belt, save space too.
Then there is the actual variable valve timing (VVT) - the current GTI can only use VVT for the inlet camshaft, whereas the new motor has VVT on both inlet and exhaust valves - again, leading to improvements in both power delivery and reduced emissions.
The final major change to the "innards" of the engine are the introduction of variable lift, or opening of the exhaust and inlet valves. Anybody who has an interest in the V-Tech technology will already be aware of this. However, being as this engine was initially developed by Audi, and this specific technology is penned as "valve-lift", it will be considerably more refined, and completely stepless. Basically, at low engine speeds (depending on how the system is set up - and I've not fully studied this yet), just one of the two inlet and exhaust valves will be opened (for improved torque, from better "swirling" of air-fuel in the combustion chamber), but at higher speeds, both valves will open (allowing for "freeer" breathing, hence more top-end power).
So, as a final "summary" - will it be "better" than the current engines? Well, for refinement, power delivery and economy - then a big yes. For out and out performance - don't know - proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and all that! :wink: :smiley:
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?
Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?
Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.
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Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
but they would be biased !!!! LOL
I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this knowledge you have to us. Its invaluable too many of us on here. Too many time before i have modded only knowing the basics and really just wasted monies, but with your knowledge i know what i am attempting to do ( sort of ! :laugh: _
once again thanks Teutonic_T ! :cool:
Raj
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?
Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.
Have you spoken to them? And is the new donkey still using the Bosch MED9 ecu?
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Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
but they would be biased !!!! LOL
I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this knowledge you have to us. Its invaluable too many of us on here. Too many time before i have modded only knowing the basics and really just wasted monies, but with your knowledge i know what i am attempting to do ( sort of ! :laugh: _
once again thanks Teutonic_T ! :cool:
Raj
No worries mate. It is nice to know that my musings are appreciated, and are also helpful. :smiley:
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
i'm intrested aswell, also Teutoni_T is a better engine for tuning ? ?
Now that, I really can not answer. Tuning, per-se, isn't really my forte. Revo and the like would be better ones to ask. :smiley:
....I know that Revo are excited about the tuning potential of the new engine.
Have you spoken to them? And is the new donkey still using the Bosch MED9 ecu?
....Yes, when I visited Revo HQ in person recently. I'd have to confirm about the ECU - I don't want to misinform.
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doesn't the new donkey use the new Bosch MED17 ECU?
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After having a test drive in the new Rocco. I can say that the engine is smoother at the top end.
But it dosen't have as much *Puff*. A very linear power delivery.
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After having a test drive in the new Rocco. I can say that the engine is smoother at the top end.
But it dosen't have as much *Puff*. A very linear power delivery.
....I found it very smooth too, but not very exciting. In standard form an excellent daily ride whatever the distance and type of road but not the sort of car you feel you want to take out just for the pure fun.
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brilliant engine the 2.0tsi! loads of torque! yes it is the new MED17ecu and we're also the first people to do switchable software for it :)
video of our jetta :) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qZFQhXEO6dg (note that that this was a day of constant runs....so final figures should be higher :) )
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just another little note... those are WHP figures (tuned in the states where only WHP counts!)
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I just have official press access for all of the VAG marques (including the "big boys" - Lambo, Bentley and Bugatti), and also pay for erWin technical info too. The erWin stuff aint cheap though! :embarassed: Oh, I also have ETKA, but keep that quiet! :wink:
Aha!
I don't know what ETKA means, but since it is in such small font, it must be something really special! :smiley:
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TT, so is Mk6 engine a significant improvement over E30 engine?
That is one of the $64,000 questions. Yes, it does have a number of improvements over the current 2.0TFSI engine (found in the current GTI and Ed30, to name just a few).
Some of the more important features.............
Big thanks for info, TT! :cool:
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
I think that is slightly irellevant though. Because my RS4, along with the R8, and RS6 V10 biturbo all use the inlet cam to drive the FSI pump - and you should see the monster pumps on the RS6. :shocked:
They still have re-designed it though. I guess this is because of the issues with cam lobe wear with the single piece cam on some but not all BPY engines.
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After having a test drive in the new Rocco. I can say that the engine is smoother at the top end.
But it dosen't have as much *Puff*. A very linear power delivery.
Thanks for that. So it would seem that it is very "Audi-esque" - very refined, and ideal for Germanic luxury cars, whilst at the same time, just "getting the job done" with the minimum of fuss. But when you say it doesn't have as much "puff" - is that simply because the engine is less harsh, less "in your face"? Maybe it is just a little too quiet - Milltek will soon sort that! :evil:
And onto the Rocco, how did you find the ride and handling of the chassis? Did you get to fiddle with the suspension settings?
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After having a test drive in the new Rocco. I can say that the engine is smoother at the top end.
But it dosen't have as much *Puff*. A very linear power delivery.
....I found it very smooth too, but not very exciting. In standard form an excellent daily ride whatever the distance and type of road but not the sort of car you feel you want to take out just for the pure fun.
So the engine has sort of had its "soul" removed? And would some fettling by Milltek and Revo re-awaken said soul? :undecided:
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brilliant engine the 2.0tsi! loads of torque! yes it is the new MED17ecu and we're also the first people to do switchable software for it :)
Carl, without giving away any "trade secrets", what is/are the difference between the MED9-series and this new MED17 ?
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I just have official press access for all of the VAG marques (including the "big boys" - Lambo, Bentley and Bugatti), and also pay for erWin technical info too. The erWin stuff aint cheap though! :embarassed: Oh, I also have ETKA, but keep that quiet! :wink:
Aha!
I don't know what ETKA means, but since it is in such small font, it must be something really special! :smiley:
'Tis the official spare parts catalogue . . . . <whistles> :wink:
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
I think that is slightly irellevant though. Because my RS4, along with the R8, and RS6 V10 biturbo all use the inlet cam to drive the FSI pump - and you should see the monster pumps on the RS6. :shocked:
They still have re-designed it though. I guess this is because of the issues with cam lobe wear with the single piece cam on some but not all BPY engines.
Yes, agreed they "redesigned it".
However, to be a little pedantic, it wasn't the fact that the inlet camshaft, per-se, is a bad place to site the pump, and the exhaust cam is inherently better (I'd actually stick my neck on the block, and actually state the exhaust cam is actually worse!). The actual problems regarding the fuel pump on the 2.0TFSI were soley down to inadequate case-hardening of the relevant cam lobes - and this could happen on exhaust cams too! :smug:
And pedant mode #2, we never got the BPY engines. :wink: The BPY was/is a North America specific unit, and has different emissions standards and ECU settings. The AXX was replaced in Europe and the Rest of the World by the BWA, and some of these are also alleged to suffer with wear on the lobes. :smiley:
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After having a test drive in the new Rocco. I can say that the engine is smoother at the top end.
But it dosen't have as much *Puff*. A very linear power delivery.
....I found it very smooth too, but not very exciting. In standard form an excellent daily ride whatever the distance and type of road but not the sort of car you feel you want to take out just for the pure fun.
So the engine has sort of had its "soul" removed? And would some fettling by Milltek and Revo re-awaken said soul? :undecided:
....I reckon that the soul is there but needs the 'fettling' by the likes of Milltek and Revo to put the driver more in touch with it. My problem is that I've extensively modified my car such that it has become very, very tactile and 'tactile' driveability is what I seek in a car in order to enjoy my driving. 24hrs in a Toyota Yaris emphasised that!! Even the VeeDub Lupo was more tactile than the Yaris!
It's understandable that most car manufacturers offer production cars which are anaesthetised so that the driver feels more remote from what's going on - Mr & Mrs Jo Public don't want to get involved.
I extensively played with the Comfort / Normal / Sport settings and then left it in Sport - The rest were a waste of time imo - The differences were perhaps too subtle.
:afro:
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brilliant engine the 2.0tsi! loads of torque! yes it is the new MED17ecu and we're also the first people to do switchable software for it :)
Carl, without giving away any "trade secrets", what is/are the difference between the MED9-series and this new MED17 ?
compleatly different platform to anything out there, not to be confused with the other MED17 ecu's out there on other marques such as BMW MINI's as they use a different system alltogether although still a kind of MED17
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Also the high pressure fuel pump is now driven off the exhaust cam and not the inlet cam, with 4 lobes not 3
I think that is slightly irellevant though. Because my RS4, along with the R8, and RS6 V10 biturbo all use the inlet cam to drive the FSI pump - and you should see the monster pumps on the RS6. :shocked:
They still have re-designed it though. I guess this is because of the issues with cam lobe wear with the single piece cam on some but not all BPY engines.
Yes, agreed they "redesigned it".
However, to be a little pedantic, it wasn't the fact that the inlet camshaft, per-se, is a bad place to site the pump, and the exhaust cam is inherently better (I'd actually stick my neck on the block, and actually state the exhaust cam is actually worse!). The actual problems regarding the fuel pump on the 2.0TFSI were soley down to inadequate case-hardening of the relevant cam lobes - and this could happen on exhaust cams too! :smug:
And pedant mode #2, we never got the BPY engines. :wink: The BPY was/is a North America specific unit, and has different emissions standards and ECU settings. The AXX was replaced in Europe and the Rest of the World by the BWA, and some of these are also alleged to suffer with wear on the lobes. :smiley:
I think the most interesting thing is that they have gone to 4 lobes on the cam. That is more important than which cam drives the HPFP. With running more lobes, the spring on the HPFP doesn't have to be as strong, therefore putting less pressure on the cam lobe.