GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: RedRobin on 02 September 2008, 00:15
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Rather than hijack another person's thread. The story so far........
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nobody has experienced that aerodynamic thing i dont think, i believe its TTs theory :smiley: :smiley:
Huh - how do you explain all the failed mechatronics units which the Yanks seem to suffer? Show me a Yank who has a perfectly standard car with a failed mechatronics unit!
Sadly, all the Yanks think its "cool", or dare I use Yankie terminology "sick", to lower their cars, fit those stooopid open fog grilles, and a plethora of other mods - virtually as soon as the car has left the dealers forcourt.
The DSG mechatronics unit is a heat sensitive component. Saying that, Volkswagen will have no doubt spent many hours in the wind tunnel with the smoke wand, bits of string and sticky back plastic - along with considerable hours testing ranging from the Norwegian Arctic to some feckin hot desert somewhere - and deemed that the standard areodynamic profile of the Golf, including the GTI and R32, provide the correct amount of cooling to the correct locations of the cars critical parts, such as the brakes and the DSG. I don't think the average Yank will be able to match VWs test programme, do you?
....I'm not 100% in agreement with you on this either, TT. I don't debate what VW have spent hours testing and developing but I think that the fog grills being 'open' are probably not enough to upset the DSG system as much as I understand you to be saying. For a start, one of them is blanked off just behind the open honeycombe, and the other is partially blocked off.
Oh boy. Its a shame the forum crashed a while back! :sad:
Look, in the original "pre-production" models released to the press, the GTI had "open" fog grilles - on both sides, like this:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/Golf%20V/006.jpg)
However, after a very small number of the initial production GTIs which were released with those grilles, all future production GTIs had fully closed grilles. So why, then, did VW feel the need to modify a part during a production run? :rolleyes: Cost - not really, asthetics - nope - so it must only be down to the performance of the individual part. :smug:
Even on the higher output Ed30/Pirelli models - and therefore hotter running - VW still use the fully closed grilles: :nerd:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/Golf%20V/2008-Volkswagen-Golf-GTI-Pirelli-Gi.jpg)
So, by using your logic RR that these "open" grilles don't upset the airflow, particularly to the DSG - why then did VW change them to fully closed versions. :rolleyes:
And you are wrong about these fully "open" grilles. Yes, agreed that the one on the right is actually blocked off (however, most owners, particularly the yanks will dremel off the rear cover, and merely freeze solid their screen wash bottle in the winter!), but the right one is most definately fully open. This was officially designed by VW for a "tropical climate" market - specifically Mexico and South Africa, and its purpose is to duct air to an additional large radiator behind the left fog light. However, even with the supposed substantial additional cooling from this additional radiator (which is about a third of the size of the main rad) - this "tropical climate" spec was never fitted to any cars (in South Africa, Mexico, or any other "hot" locations, such as Dubai or Arizona), because again, the supposed benefits from this additional radiator were either (a) not worth while, or (b) actually detracted from the cooling of other items. Now, unless anyone here actually works in the R&D at Wolfsburg, we will never know the real answer. :lipsrsealed: :rolleyes:
Now, going back to aerodynamics, you really do need to get a handle on the basics, and sadly, you don't appear to have any real grasp on the basic fundamentals of aerodynamics. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
But I do understand that you are describing a downside of a combination of several aftermarket components.
OK. :smiley:
Weren't the fog vents open originally by VW to gain extra cooling to the DSG but then found not to be needed and subsequently dropped to streamline the economics of production between DSG and non-DSG cars?
Nope, they were designed to provide additional cooling primarilly for the engine coolant - and for non-DSG cars too. The internal ducting for these open grilles actually angles away from the DSG, in an orienation manner as though it was venting out of the side of the car. The simple fact that the wheel arch liner is no longer available with the exit louvres for this rad must show how ineffective the whole system was, and maybe how it was starving the actual DSG of air?
OK, it could losely be argued that the DSG might also benefit, soley on the grounds that the DSG oil (along with the engine oil, and the turbocharger) also take a feed from the engine coolant. However, their cooling benefit is of considerably less when compared to the engines own requirement - which would also explain why this is not used in hot climes. :nerd:
My Mechatronics Module failed at about 6k miles and well before I changed to 'open' fog grilles. I'm not at 52k miles and have had 'open' vents for at least 25,000 miles without any problems.
And . . . there is no logic to that statment. You can not "prove a negative". It uses the same misguided reasoning such as: If Fred Smith was to drive along UK motorways for a whole year at a constant speed of 120mph, and not get nicked - then 120mph is legal for a UK motorway! :rolleyes:
Negative logic is very bad logic - which probably explains why politicians use it so much. Unfortunately, negative logic proves Jack Schit! Sorry to be so blunt! :smiley:
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....I think it's academic and you're of course right when you (TT) say that we'll never know what was decided in Wolfsburg, but whatever the actual reasons why open grills were later revised to closed grills in production, it seems we are agreed that open grills didn't result in anything worth doing. But by the same token, it doesn't necessarily follow that being open then created problems and hence that's the reason they were closed.
The reason of production economics should not be discounted - We all know this well when it comes to VW.
Regarding the freezing of screen wash - Am I not correct in stating that screenwash as recommended by VW is able to function at temperatures down to minus-40C ? So whether the grill is open or not is surely not going to make any significant difference.
Aerodynamics? - How critical can just partially (not fully) open fog grills be on a 145 mph max hatchback?
My reference to my own case of a Mechatronics Module failing was only offered as contributing information and never intended to be a case to prove anything conclusively. Merely a living example (so far!) that open fog grills don't necessarily cause a failure.
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....I think it's academic and you're of course right when you (TT) say that we'll never know what was decided in Wolfsburg,
OK, agreed.
but whatever the actual reasons why open grills were later revised to closed grills in production, it seems we are agreed that open grills didn't result in anything worth doing. But by the same token, it doesn't necessarily follow that being open then created problems and hence that's the reason they were closed.
Not necessarily so. If open grilles gave no measureable advantage, AND no measureable disadvantage, then VW would have left them identical to the pre-production and early batch production models. Afterall, the tooling was already created to make the "open" moulds.
I stand by my logic that VW altered the original grilles - and therefore redesigned the tooling to mould fully closed grilles, soley because the original open grilles were causing adverse or undesireable problems. Now, weather it was the DSG, or the front anchors, or some other component which was affected - well we wont know - but I'd put good money on something being adversely affected by the open grilles.
The reason of production economics should not be discounted - We all know this well when it comes to VW.
And the same applies to all industrial corporations, and not just in the motor industry. But the simple fact remains, if the original open grilles worked flawlessly, why would VW spend money both redesigning and re-tooling for a revised part - if they really didn't need to? :smug:
And it's not down to asthetics either. I think that most sensible people will know that the "blue" halogen headlamp bulbs produce less ligh output than non-blue bulbs. Yet some people actually think that the blue bulbs look good. So VW officially supply them through their official channels. Using the same logic, where some peeps think the open fog grilles look "cool" or whatever other terminology for "desirable" - why don't VW offer these too? :smug:
Regarding the freezing of screen wash - Am I not correct in stating that screenwash as recommended by VW is able to function at temperatures down to minus-40C ? So whether the grill is open or not is surely not going to make any significant difference.
You are joking, right? Yes, the VW screenwash as mixed to their required dose will protect down to minus 40, and when used neat will protect down to minus 70.
However, you are clearly discounting a MASSIVE issue of the wind-chill factor - you know, the very same application of physics which cools the radiator, or the intercooler, or the air con condensor, or the sump, or the DSG box, or the gearbox and rear axle on an longitudinal car - with a flow of air over them.
Now I'm no meteorology expert, but I thought it was very much common knowledge that the wind-chill factor is considerably worse than static air temperatures. Any BBC weather forecast in the winter will show you static air temperatures, along with wind-chill temperatures, and even at air speeds as low as 20mph, it can be considerable. Therefore, even with a positive static air temperature, at 60mph, you will be looking at a massive cooling effect.
Sorry, but it is a very well known problem of screenwash resevoirs freezing due to wind-chill, particularly on cars where it is mounted in an air flow - usually behind and/or below headlamps.
Threrefore, open fog light grilles will have a MASSIVE effect on the screenwash resevoir.
Aerodynamics? - How critical can just partially (not fully) open fog grills be on a 145 mph max hatchback?
I'm sorry, but you really must be taking the pi$$.
On ANY kind of road car, aerodynamics play a MASSIVE part of autombile dynamics, starting at speeds as low as 30mph. Why do you think the co-efficient of drag is such a major factor in automobile design.
And regarding what you imply are relatively small openings in the fog grilles and their potential effects on aerodynamic attributes - think about the problems which arise when you get a noisy door seal. The actual gap may be less than half a millimetre, and be incredibly irritating at speeds as low as forty mph. Or look at another angle - remember when Ford released the original RS Cosworth Escort? They quoted a certain figure for it's top speed, yet no car magazine or other similar tester could ever achieve anywhere near Fords claimed top speed figure. When Ford where challenged, they eventually fessed-up, stating that they had to remove the mud flaps from the production models to achieve their claimed top speed - mudflaps, FFS. :shocked:
I really do think you have your head burried in the sand on this particular issue regarding aerodynamics! :rolleyes:
My reference to my own case of a Mechatronics Module failing was only offered as contributing information and never intended to be a case to prove anything conclusively. Merely a living example (so far!) that open fog grills don't necessarily cause a failure.
And by the same logic, nor can they disprove anything either!
Just because yours hasn't failed, it doesn't mean that eveyone else who has open fog grilles wont fail due to overheating? Maybe you are just very lucky, and your new mechatronics module was built by Fritz - who happens to be VWs most careful of mechatronics module builders?
And forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought you had previously posted that the mechatronics were heat sensative, and failures were caused by overheating of said mechatronics unit!
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Hi TT - Thanks for entering into this debate/discussion.
Firstly I would like you to understand that I'm really not taking the pi$$ in any of this discussion - I really am that ignorant when it comes to some aspects of the subject! And neither am I trying to score points to look good winning a debate. I will concede certain points and doubtless remain unconvinced on others and attempt to identify points where we may indeed be in agreement, even if we don't realise it at the time!
Also, to establish that we are talking about the same subject - I am talking about the 'factory' version partially open grills and not any homemade all-open version done by a crazy yankee teenager armed with a dremel in his backyard.
It seems we are agreed that we don't actually know what any adverse effects of 'open' (only partially, remember please) may be, but you are convinced based on your expert knowledge that there will be a disadvantage. Perhaps where I differ is whether that disadvantage is enough to be worth being concerned about.
Regarding screenwash disadvantages, I concede to the wind chill factor. However, in discussing the 'partially' open grill version, the air flow or wind is completely blocked on that side, so I think it's reasonable to discount the potential effects on screenwash as being a problem. I agree that the typical yankee totally open version could freeze their body fluids!
Regarding production economics, I don't think that either of us can draw a satisfactory conclusion - Afterall even the German boffins are human and we simply don't know why for certain that the production changed.
Regarding aerodynamics, I appreciate that every little thing can have an effect but I'm still not convinced that partially open grills have such an effect for me to be worried about. Is having 'open' fog grills why my car felt lighter at 143 mph (GPS not speedo) on the autobahns? Acceleration from 130 upwards was certainly relatively slow but how often do I need performance at that end in a Golf hatchback?
I fear that, in my case, with the OSIR front splitter I'm already running, I'm a lost cause anyway.
Regarding my mention of my Mechatronics Module, again I repeat that I wasn't claiming that the lack of subsequent failure is proof of everyone else being okay, nor that mine won't fail again. Btw, I love your term "Fritz, VW's most careful Mechatronics Module builder"!
The bottom line is that I hate anything fake and I see the stock closed grills as pretend honeycombe grills. So I much prefer the style of the partially open grills and I do think they look 'cool' - Let's not argue about aesthetic taste. However, if I was sufficiently convinced that my partially open ones were a serious problem, then I would replace them with the original closed ones I still have. By this discussion I am trying to come to a decision over this and doubtless others reading it may make their own decisions.
:smiley: :afro:
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy. With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy. With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
....The square vent type aren't particularly flimsy - And the material is slightly flexible - No problems with stones etc for me so far.
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The Leon has pretty large open fog grills:
(http://www.seatcupra.net/images/DanGB/Image1.jpg)
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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One additional possible reason why the driver side vent isn't open by default is that it would expose the driver side horn and its electrical connector to the elements.
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Hi TT - Thanks for entering into this debate/discussion.
Now you should well-know me by now that I'm up for a good fight debate, even a mass one! :shocked: :grin:
Firstly I would like you to understand that I'm really not taking the pi$$ in any of this discussion - I really am that ignorant when it comes to some aspects of the subject!
OK - but I suppose your extreme levels of enthusiasm tend to be so high, that they appear (to me, anyway) to very much overshadow any areas of weakness of knowledge on a particular subject. And I don't mean that as a dig in any way, more of just an observation, which I sometimes have difficulty seeing through - if you get my drift? :smiley:
And neither am I trying to score points to look good winning a debate. I will concede certain points and doubtless remain unconvinced on others and attempt to identify points where we may indeed be in agreement, even if we don't realise it at the time!
Yup, I'm fully with you on that. I personally don't give a flying fig weather others agree with me or not - as long as I, and all the other forum members, are free to "put our point of veiw" down on the forum (and without being unreasonably moderated), then I'm as happy as Larry. If others want to agree, or disagree with me - is not really important! :smiley:
Also, to establish that we are talking about the same subject - I am talking about the 'factory' version partially open grills and not any homemade all-open version done by a crazy yankee teenager armed with a dremel in his backyard.
OK, and so was I. But I also wanted to illustrate the extremes of the subject, and I think it is important that we do. Afterall, Robin, just like you have modified your Golf as a "whole", it can aslo be stated that you have modified individual "components" of the said whole Golf. Some peeps may fit the hot climes grilles without any tampering, whereas others will get the hacksaw, hammer, and hot glue gun to them! :smug:
However, I think for you (or anyone else) to "narrow down" or restrict the subject to a certain level of open-ness in the grilles is not really appropriate. I would see that as a similar approach, using CF as an example, of saying something like "we can only call carbon fibre products carbon fibre, if they are 100% black". I'm sure Hurdy would throw his teddy out of the cot if someone tried to state is silver CF bonnet and mirror caps wern't CF! :wink:
So regarding these grilles, we must respect that even the smallest openings, as on the pre-production ones, which had the rough equivalent of just 4 "open" hexagons were deemed to have an effect on air flow, and were therefore binned by VW.
Finally, lets not look at these with one eye closed. :wink: Whilst the "hot climes" official ones have the right one closed (in front of the screenwash), the left one is very much open, and can potentially flow a very large volume of air. However, more importantly, where these have been retro-fitted to a car which doesn't have the additional rad, and therefore no "restrictor" to the airflow, this grille will have a massive effect on starving, or diverting air from other critial areas, such as the lower and upper central grilles, which have effectively four sucessive planes of resistance (1st the air con condensor, 2nd the intercooler, 3rd the main coolant radiator, and 4th the cooling fans and shrouds). Air, just like water, or other liquids, is a fluid - and when flowing, will take the path of least resistance. Try this as an example - get a garden watering can, attach the sprinkler rose to the spout, then fill it with water. Now turn it upside down. How much water comes out of the rose, and how fast - and how much comes out of the BFO hole which you filled up under the tap from.
It seems we are agreed that we don't actually know what any adverse effects of 'open' (only partially, remember please) may be, but you are convinced based on your expert knowledge that there will be a disadvantage. Perhaps where I differ is whether that disadvantage is enough to be worth being concerned about.
Not really. I am 100% positive that these open fog grilles cause a "disadvantage". Where we probably both agree though, is that none of us knows for certain categorically and exactly what components are disadvantaged, and more crucially, by how much.
However, based on my studies, and using basic physics and engineering principles - I can put my hand on my heart, and state that I strongly believe that certain components WILL be affect. I can also clarify that this is my personal opinion, and try to help the "doubters" with some examples (the watering can, and I'll try to think of more). What I can not do is quantifiy my thoughts and opinions, because (a) I don't work at Wolfsburg, and (b) I've never properly studied "Computational Fluid Dynamics" or CFD. If there is anybody reading this forum who has expertise in (a) or (b), then I am 100% certain that my concerns and opinions would categorically agreed with. If you've never heard of CFD, Google it - and you will hopefully agree that I'm not waffling or BSing. :smiley:
Regarding screenwash disadvantages, I concede to the wind chill factor. However, in discussing the 'partially' open grill version, the air flow or wind is completely blocked on that side, so I think it's reasonable to discount the potential effects on screenwash as being a problem. I agree that the typical yankee totally open version could freeze their body fluids!
OK the wind-chill is settled -good! :smiley:
Regarding the "closed" right one (infront of the screenwash), then yes, you may have a point on that very specific instance, however, as I state above, I need to consider ALL versions (from the pre-production, to the "hot climes", to not only the yanks but also some UK peeps on ukmkivs.net and GolfMk5.com who have opened up their right one), and also include both right and left grilles. :nerd:
As stated above though, partially open or fully open grilles make no difference. A hole is a hole, and no matter what size, air (and fluids in general) will still flow through it. The only thing which changes in accordnce to the size is the volume. Carburettor jets are one example. Or try the watering can - but this time with a different experiment. Fill the watering can up to a certain level - say 5 litres. Now put the sprinkler rose on the end of the spout. Now go and water your dafodils, using only the sprinkler rose, and time how long it takes to empty. Repeat the experiment with the same 5 litres, but this time, remove the sprinkler rose, and water the daffs through the open pipe (where the rose pushes on to) and time how much quicker the can empties. So that will prove that big holes or small - the same volume of fluids can still pass - irrespective of size of hole. :nerd:
Now, onto my second concern of your above paragraph - about the flow being blocked on the rear. That just isn't true. Open your bonnet, (with the engine off and cold, I hasten to add) and from inside the engine compartment, from the top, put your hand/arm down beween the battery and the left headlamp. You should be able to get your hand all the way down, and actually touch the rear of the fog lamp - and even tap some SOS morse code on the rear of the fog grille. For the right side, the same free flow is there, but because of the large washer bottle, you can't actually get your hand down there (unless you are ET, with weird skinny arms! :shocked:). This "airflow" can pass extremely freely through the engine compartment, and exit underneath the bulkhead/firewall - so this particular point is a complete non-starter! :nerd: :smiley:
. . . to be continued (due to me waffling on and exceding the 10k character limit) :rolleyes:
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My car is now worthless :sad: Superchips Bluefin AND open fog light grilles!!!!!! :sad: :evil:
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......contunued from above
Regarding production economics, I don't think that either of us can draw a satisfactory conclusion - Afterall even the German boffins are human and we simply don't know why for certain that the production changed.
I disagree. Volkswagen had GTI fog lamp grilles on the pre-production and inital batch production models which fitted perfectly. They looked just fine to me, from a visual aspect - and no doubt they were the "perfect" fog lamp grille from "Helmut - Volkswagens award winning fog lamp grille designer" !!! So the top brass at Wolfsburg "signed-off" Hemuts fog lamp grille, complete with its four open honeycombs, and put it into full production.
So VW now had a perfect fog grille. Helmut was happy, and VWs plastic factory started to mould them at full production.
A short while later, Helmut got some bad news - the holes in his grilles needed to be filled in. Helmut was devistated, and cried a river over his Wiener Schnitzel. VW needed to make new moulds for the grilles.
Drama and amusment aside - WHY would VW need to do this? Why are those initial batch no longer available? Afterall, not only is there an additional cost to VW for re-tooling - there will be extra plastic needed to "fill in" those 4 hexagons - so I clearly see that not as a "cost saving" exercise by VW, but the fundament reverse, in a quantifiable additional cost.
And poor old Helmut - he probably sent VW the bill for his Helga Specialist Counselling sessions too! :grin:
Regarding aerodynamics, I appreciate that every little thing can have an effect but I'm still not convinced that partially open grills have such an effect for me to be worried about. Is having 'open' fog grills why my car felt lighter at 143 mph (GPS not speedo) on the autobahns? Acceleration from 130 upwards was certainly relatively slow but how often do I need performance at that end in a Golf hatchback?
But top speeds are a completely different issue, and is something that I have never brought into the discussion. However, being as you raised the issue, I'll answer it!
Firstly, I'm 100% certain that the combination top speed, and open fog light grilles was NEVER an issue for VW - and so if someone wishes to "claim" that open fog lamp grilles give the GTI an extra 1.367 mph top speed - or whatever - the first thing I'd counter that with would be - and what where the control condition measurements between runs. I would have no doubt that anyone could answer that?
Onto the real nitty-gritty of making "changes" to the aerodynamic profile of a vehicle.
Perhaps someone would like to ask McLaren if they will remove the air ducts from the brakes on their F1 cars. Afterall, any F1 designer will tell you that the brake ducts WILL have a definate effect on reducing the top speed - and by getting rid of them, their silver cars will have a 10kmh top speed increase over the red cars. Trouble is, McLaren will probably tell you to fcuk off, because, whilst they might appreciate an increase in top speed, they certainly wouldn't agree to massive overheating of the brakes, and the disintegration of the discs before half race distance.
So yes, even if the open fog grilles gave it an extra few mph top speed, the fact remains that they are most likely causing more damage elsewhere, such as reduced efficiency of the intercooler, or overheating of DSG.
I fear that, in my case, with the OSIR front splitter I'm already running, I'm a lost cause anyway.
Yeah, but at least the OSIR stuff actually looks good! I personally think the open fog grilles look pants - and clearly not upto the same quality lines as the rest of the GTI front end.
Regarding my mention of my Mechatronics Module, again I repeat that I wasn't claiming that the lack of subsequent failure is proof of everyone else being okay, nor that mine won't fail again. Btw, I love your term "Fritz, VW's most careful Mechatronics Module builder"!
OK - understood! :)
Oh, and if you liked Fritz, you'll love his mate, Helmut!
The bottom line is that I hate anything fake and I see the stock closed grills as pretend honeycombe grills. So I much prefer the style of the partially open grills and I do think they look 'cool' - Let's not argue about aesthetic taste.
I absolutely agree on not arguing over individual perceptions of taste and aesthetics. The world would be one mighty dull place if there were not cars like yours to drool over!
However, if I was sufficiently convinced that my partially open ones were a serious problem, then I would replace them with the original closed ones I still have. By this discussion I am trying to come to a decision over this and doubtless others reading it may make their own decisions.
OK - I fully appreciate your "train of thought", and fully respect it. But how about maybe looking at it from a different angle? At the mo, you seem to be using the approach of: "I'll leave the opens on, until I can find some evidence that they will cause damage" - which is reasonable. However, what IF there WAS evidence of causing damage, but we couldn't actually provide it, maybe because of "copyright" or "commercial confidentiality"?? That is potentially a very real situation.
At the other end of the thought process, you could take the: "I'll remove the open fog grilles, and replace them with the standard ones, until someone can provide evidence that the open ones are safe". However, just like the other train of thought - is there any evidence, and is it subject to commercial confidentiality?
Both trains of thought have their "hurdles" - but one has a "fail-safe" approach, whereas the other does not.
At the end of the day, it really makes no difference to me Robin if you keep em or bin em. Whilst the simple "matter of fact" attitude of it being your car, "you brake it, you pay for the repairs" attidude is basically fundamentaly the correct one - the reality is that we are all online "mates", and we all like to offer information to help out each other. That may be offering warnings of dodgy dealers, sites of mobile roadside revenue collectors <wink>, or dodgy parts, or whatever - we are all offering info in good faith.
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My car is now worthless :sad: Superchips Bluefin AND open fog light grilles!!!!!! :sad: :evil:
:grin: :grin: :grin: i know, but at least TTs car will be the perfect example in 15 years time :grin: :grin:
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy.
Yeah. When you compare the fog grilles with the lower centre one, the depth of the honeycombe lattice on the fogs is, what, about 5mm deep. Whereas the lower centre grille is about 25mm deep, and considerably more rigid. A pheasant can make a massive mess of the centre grille, so the open sides will just disintegrate! :rolleyes:
With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
No more so than anywhere else on the front of the car - so shouldn't really be an issue. :smiley:
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The Leon has pretty large open fog grills:
(http://www.seatcupra.net/images/DanGB/Image1.jpg)
And . . . WFT has that got to do with the aerodyamics of the Golf? :rolleyes: The Golf and the Leon are like chalk and chese in their aerodynamic profiles!
Don't forget, VW specifically deleted the open fogs for a reason, whereas the Leon is still sold with them! :tongue:
Finally, Seats are sold/marketed with considerably more emphasis on "style" and eye-catching design, based on Spanish "flair", and are targeted to a more younger demographic - whereas Golfs are designed with considerably more "restraint" in their styling, and are very much a slave to the German "form follows function" ethos, and are generally seen as more "mature" cars - though VW do seem to also appeal to the younger generations too!
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oi - wake up at the back! :grin: :grin:
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One additional possible reason why the driver side vent isn't open by default is that it would expose the driver side horn and its electrical connector to the elements.
Huh - WTF!
So the right side horn can't cope with an ickle bit of rain, yet the horn on the left side, along with the bonnet microswitch, the exterior air temp sensor, and all of the exposed wiring and connectors on the underside are somehow hermetically sealed to prevent the driving force of rain at 100mph!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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My car is now worthless :sad: Superchips Bluefin AND open fog light grilles!!!!!! :sad: :evil:
:grin: :grin: :grin: i know, but at least TTs car will be the perfect example in 15 years time :grin: :grin:
I wish! :rolleyes: Spend too much time on here for my own good! :embarassed:
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My car is now worthless :sad: Superchips Bluefin AND open fog light grilles!!!!!! :sad: :evil:
:grin: :grin: :grin: i know, but at least TTs car will be the perfect example in 15 years time :grin: :grin:
I wish! :rolleyes: Spend too much time on here for my own good! :embarassed:
Some really usefull content as ever T_T! It's just a shame most of them are aimed at my mods, but hey, you pay your money you take's your chance's!! :wink: And above all else, im still smiling :smiley:
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My car is now worthless :sad: Superchips Bluefin AND open fog light grilles!!!!!! :sad: :evil:
:grin: :grin: :grin: i know, but at least TTs car will be the perfect example in 15 years time :grin: :grin:
I wish! :rolleyes: Spend too much time on here for my own good! :embarassed:
Some really usefull content as ever T_T!
Thanks. :smiley:
It's just a shame most of them are aimed at my mods,
Oh, fcuk - I'm not ganging up on you - honest! :tongue: :grin:
but hey, you pay your money you take's your chance's!! :wink: And above all else, im still smiling :smiley:
Absolutely - and fully agree. However, there is a lot of wrong info on these. To quote the Fischer Motorsport site as an example - they clearly state something along the lines that they provide additional cooling to the front brakes - which is horsesh!t - but someone might believe them, and buy them under false pretenses.
At the end of the day though, we all make mistakes, even with our purchases - FFS, I bought two brand new Vectras :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: - but I can still take the piss out of myself for that major indescretion! :evil:
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TT - I just got in from road testing my ultra lightweight performance enhancing carbonfibre paddles! I'll return to this thread a little later, buddy. But I'll say now that I'm really pleased that you and I can have these discussions without getting the hump with each other like we have been known to do in the past.
Just a quick comment on my extreme enthusiasm and the horn behind an open grill subject - I no longer have one of the stock horns located there because I have twin air horns mounted on the other side. You see, I'm only part English and so don't have much of that English reserve!
Catch ya soon with your good friends Fritz and Helmut. :smiley:
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy.
Yeah. When you compare the fog grilles with the lower centre one, the depth of the honeycombe lattice on the fogs is, what, about 5mm deep. Whereas the lower centre grille is about 25mm deep, and considerably more rigid. A pheasant can make a massive mess of the centre grille, so the open sides will just disintegrate! :rolleyes:
With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
No more so than anywhere else on the front of the car - so shouldn't really be an issue. :smiley:
Sorry, I missed making my own point there. The point was, could VW have removed the open grilles due to poor impact resistance?
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TT - I just got in from road testing my ultra lightweight performance enhancing carbonfibre paddles! I'll return to this thread a little later, buddy. But I'll say now that I'm really pleased that you and I can have these discussions without getting the hump with each other like we have been known to do in the past.
:smiley: :smiley: :cool: :cool:
Just a quick comment on my extreme enthusiasm and the horn behind an open grill subject - I no longer have one of the stock horns located there because I have twin air horns mounted on the other side. You see, I'm only part English and so don't have much of that English reserve!
You and your horns! :shocked: :evil:
Catch ya soon with your good friends Fritz and Helmut. :smiley:
They're trying to get me pissed on some wheat beer! Just donning my Lederhosens <sp?> :rolleyes: :grin:
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy.
Yeah. When you compare the fog grilles with the lower centre one, the depth of the honeycombe lattice on the fogs is, what, about 5mm deep. Whereas the lower centre grille is about 25mm deep, and considerably more rigid. A pheasant can make a massive mess of the centre grille, so the open sides will just disintegrate! :rolleyes:
With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
No more so than anywhere else on the front of the car - so shouldn't really be an issue. :smiley:
Sorry, I missed making my own point there. The point was, could VW have removed the open grilles due to poor impact resistance?
Ahh, I see. Good comment - I'll have a think. :undecided:
Just to clarify, which open grilles are you specifically referring to? The original 4-hole pre-production ones, or the retro-fit "hot climate" ones? :huh:
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy.
Yeah. When you compare the fog grilles with the lower centre one, the depth of the honeycombe lattice on the fogs is, what, about 5mm deep. Whereas the lower centre grille is about 25mm deep, and considerably more rigid. A pheasant can make a massive mess of the centre grille, so the open sides will just disintegrate! :rolleyes:
With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
No more so than anywhere else on the front of the car - so shouldn't really be an issue. :smiley:
Sorry, I missed making my own point there. The point was, could VW have removed the open grilles due to poor impact resistance?
Ahh, I see. Good comment - I'll have a think. :undecided:
Just to clarify, which open grilles are you specifically referring to? The original 4-hole pre-production ones, or the retro-fit "hot climate" ones? :huh:
The retro fit ones particularly. I wouldn't have thought the original 4-hole ones would have been sensitive to damage.
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I go with the old adage if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why did VW 'fix' something?
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I've seen the open grilles and the plastic honeycomb sections look fairly flimsy.
Yeah. When you compare the fog grilles with the lower centre one, the depth of the honeycombe lattice on the fogs is, what, about 5mm deep. Whereas the lower centre grille is about 25mm deep, and considerably more rigid. A pheasant can make a massive mess of the centre grille, so the open sides will just disintegrate! :rolleyes:
With them being located where they are, wouldn't they be quite vulnerable to damage - even from smallish stones?
No more so than anywhere else on the front of the car - so shouldn't really be an issue. :smiley:
Sorry, I missed making my own point there. The point was, could VW have removed the open grilles due to poor impact resistance?
Ahh, I see. Good comment - I'll have a think. :undecided:
Just to clarify, which open grilles are you specifically referring to? The original 4-hole pre-production ones, or the retro-fit "hot climate" ones? :huh:
The retro fit ones particularly. I wouldn't have thought the original 4-hole ones would have been sensitive to damage.
OK, thinking about this a little more, I dont really think the stone damage, and the like would be of concern to VW - no more so than any of the other grilles, paricularly the lower central one which has the rather flimsy air con condensor behind it - unless it's now protected by a twintercooler! :wink:
My 170mph RS has open fog grilles on both sides, which are pretty flimsy, as did my last 160mph S4 (slightly more beefy), but they both have fairly beefy additional rads on both sides, and the 190mph RS6 also has them too. Pic of mine:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/my%20B7%20RS4%20saloon/f4a5337e.jpg)
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I go with the old adage if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why did VW 'fix' something?
Hurrah!
Does that mean I have an "allie" ?? :grin:
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Catch ya soon with your good friends Fritz and Helmut. :smiley:
They're trying to get me pissed on some wheat beer! Just donning my Lederhosens <sp?> :rolleyes: :grin:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/4_LederhosenWagner.jpg)
....^When I was in Munich last year^
And a reference pic for this thread : -
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/DRL_Hella_explore.jpg)
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I go with the old adage if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why did VW 'fix' something?
Hurrah!
Does that mean I have an "allie" ?? :grin:
You can add me to the list as well T_T, I don't see the point or like the look of these either.
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/DRL_Hella_explore.jpg)
RR do you have a pic of the driver side to show what lies behind the fog light grille?
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I have an early version with the four or so half open vents and they look daft. Someone at work came up to tell me that they were 'broken' :rolleyes: maybe they found that the open vents did not achieve whatever it was they were designed to do in real life and since they look stupid VW made them all solid?
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RR do you have a pic of the driver side to show what lies behind the fog light grille?
....No, sorry I don't.
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I go with the old adage if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why did VW 'fix' something?
Hurrah!
Does that mean I have an "allie" ?? :grin:
You can add me to the list as well T_T, I don't see the point or like the look of these either.
Good man. :smiley:
ROLL ON . . .
Sorry, got a little excited! :evil:
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RR do you have a pic of the driver side to show what lies behind the fog light grille?
Follow the linky:
http://oempl.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75_23_30&products_id=187
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I have an early version with the four or so half open vents and they look daft. Someone at work came up to tell me that they were 'broken' :rolleyes: maybe they found that the open vents did not achieve whatever it was they were designed to do in real life and since they look stupid VW made them all solid?
Which is basically my rationale behind this whole discussion! :smiley:
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here's mine stripped off.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e170/b44fy/IMG_0172-1.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e170/b44fy/IMG_0174-1.jpg)