GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: AGB on 20 December 2022, 15:00
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I'm not sure if anyone follows The Intercooler - online car magazine founded by Andrew Frankel and Dan Prosser.
They've taken a world cup format to identify the greatest hot hatch of all time and are using Twitter polls to vote through winners and get to an eventual greatest. They're taking nominations for Germany from 7pm (UK).
Here's a link to get you started: Twitter - The Intercooler (https://twitter.com/_theintercooler/status/1605186513175990272)
I'm interested to see what comes in second after the Golf GTI Clubsport S.... :evil: :laugh: :grin:
Something light hearted amidst the Christmas mince pies.
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I don’t do Twitter but that looks like a bit of fun.
One World Cup that Argentina and Brazil might just struggle in…
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Gotta be an easy win for the french, surely?
They’ll certainly have the strongest squad- take your pick from about a dozen.
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I don’t do Twitter but that looks like a bit of fun.
One World Cup that Argentina and Brazil might just struggle in…
Not a fan of Twitter but professionally useful for me at times. The spirit of Intercooler is firmly enthusiast and a broad church, a bit like this forum in some aspects so I'm interested to see what it produces as the winner.
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Gotta be an easy win for the french, surely?
They’ll certainly have the strongest squad- take your pick from about a dozen.
Have to agree, although the golf has always been the best all rounder the Megane's and Clio's are far too strong in pure hot hatch fun.
Personally I don't think heavily limited edition models like the Clubsport S should be included as surely accessibility should be a factor for best hot hatch.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3N0GqNZ7/DSC-7308.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This was my Clio. Great to drive to drive on short journeys. But it wasn't reliable, and was a PITA on a longer trip.
I also had this, which was a great car. Not as Raw as the Clio, but more reliable and easier to live with day to day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNTsLZD/Cloverleaf-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Gotta be an easy win for the french, surely?
They’ll certainly have the strongest squad- take your pick from about a dozen.
Have to agree, the all though has always been the best all rounder the Megan's and Clio's are far too strong for pure hot hatch fun is too strong. Personally I don't think you can count heavily limited edition models like the Clubsport S, as surely accessibility is a factor.
I can't make head nor tail of this :laugh:
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Gotta be an easy win for the french, surely?
They’ll certainly have the strongest squad- take your pick from about a dozen.
Have to agree, the all though has always been the best all rounder the Megan's and Clio's are far too strong for pure hot hatch fun is too strong. Personally I don't think you can count heavily limited edition models like the Clubsport S, as surely accessibility is a factor.
I can't make head nor tail of this :laugh:
Apologies, can you tell I had a headache? :wink: Modified it to resemble some form of English. :grin:
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3N0GqNZ7/DSC-7308.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This was my Clio. Great to drive to drive on short journeys. But it wasn't reliable, and was a PITA on a longer trip.
I also had this, which was a great car. Not as Raw as the Clio, but more reliable and easier to live with day to day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNTsLZD/Cloverleaf-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Wow, that clio must’ve been an absolute lemon to be less reliable than an alfa.
The clios were great hatchbacks- and that one looks a beauty.
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Gotta be an easy win for the french, surely?
They’ll certainly have the strongest squad- take your pick from about a dozen.
Have to agree, although the golf has always been the best all rounder the Megane's and Clio's are far too strong in pure hot hatch fun.
Personally I don't think heavily limited edition models like the Clubsport S should be included as surely accessibility should be a factor for best hot hatch.
Isn't the Renault Clio Williams the Clubsport S and RS Trophy R with a different badge? Won't be right if they're not included.
Not sure about accessibility - assume you mean price? I paid within £1k for the Clubsport S as I did the TCR. You can buy both as second hand cars at accessible prices - particularly when you consider the cheapest entry into a new car of any marque is now around £14k and it won't be in the same league.
I get the price argument with cars like the Trophy R at £51k and then with carbon wheels taking it to £72k or perhaps an A45S. But you don't think about the price when you're driving them so I'd argue that price should not be a factor in determining fun.
I see an argument on practicality and 'mainstream appeal' for specials where they share fractional amounts in common with the unlimited production car but I think that's the beauty of cars like the CSS as they share so much in common. But if they're classified as two seaters, they're way more practical than cars like the 911 but then, that's not a hot hatch? :tongue: :undecided:
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3N0GqNZ7/DSC-7308.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This was my Clio. Great to drive to drive on short journeys. But it wasn't reliable, and was a PITA on a longer trip.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNTsLZD/Cloverleaf-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Is that a 182?
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Is that a 182?
Looks like a 172 cup to me.
I had a 197 with the cup pack, was great fun but long distances according to the Mrs were like some kind of SAS interrogation technique due to the fidgity ride and noise.
I think it did about 20mph per 1000 rpm in 6th so at 80 it was doing 4000rpm...........
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5m75Dk0/Clio-197.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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It seems the Golf GTI MKI has made it through the group stages.
Classic GTI (MK1) vs peak GTI (MKVII)
I'm putting my money on the Delta Evo taking it.
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It seems the Golf GTI MKI has made it through the group stages.
Classic GTI (MK1) vs peak GTI (MKVII)
I'm putting my money on the Delta Evo taking it.
Just seen the list of the last 8. Without any bias, my money would be firmly on the 205.
The winner will be the one with greatest impact and you would expect that to be reflected in a twitter poll 30 or 40 years on.
It’ll be a two horse race, the 205 or the mk1 golf as the 2 cars that influenced the genre most, the rest won’t stand a chance.
Here’s the list-
Peugeot 205GTI
🇩🇪: VW Golf GTI Mk1
🇬🇧: Mini Cooper JCW R53
🇮🇹: Lancia Integrale Evo
🇯🇵: Toyota GR Yaris
🇰🇷: Hyundai i30N
🇪🇸: SEAT Leon Cupra R
🇺🇸 : Ford Focus RS Mk1
Incidentally, I saw a beautiful red alfasud in Belbroughton, Worcestershire yesterday. Love to see the classics out and about, and I don’t remember seeing one of those before.
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Just seen the poll finishing in a few hours is hyundai i30n v 205gti.
That’ll be a similar result to a football match between the two nations!
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The BMW 130i should be on the list IMO.
Sure it doesn't have the traditional transverse engine FWD layout of most hatches, but a lovely normally aspirated and tuneful straight six, and rear drive more than makes up for that.
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Am I the only one still following this?
I love these hot hatch GOAT discussions, pointless though they are.
So it’s semis- 205 v GR yaris and mk1 golf gti v integrale.
Interestingly only one current hatch.
This particular contest is a popularity one. There were- I think- around 60 000 205 gtis registered new in the UK during its long production run- and many people will have owned one or had a memorable ride in one. I think that’ll swing it.
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The 205 will win imo.
A good mate of mine loved his 205s and Visas but then again he owned a Citroën specialist garage. So ive driven and fixed most versions :lipsrsealed:. I liked the 205 XT/XS over the GTIs i felt they were a more balanced less nose heavy.
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The 205 will win imo.
A good mate of mine loved his 205s and Visas but then again he owned a Citroën specialist garage. So ive driven and fixed most versions :lipsrsealed:. I liked the 205 XT/XS over the GTIs i felt they were a more balanced less nose heavy.
I wanted one- a 205 XS- as my first car- because I knew I couldn’t insure a gti.
Vivid memories of test driving one with my dad 30 years ago.
Didn’t buy it in the end- a 309 xsi came up for sale so I bought that.
Fantastic little cars the 205. I love them.
And like the mk1 golf, a design classic.
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The 205 will win imo.
A good mate of mine loved his 205s and Visas but then again he owned a Citroën specialist garage. So ive driven and fixed most versions :lipsrsealed:. I liked the 205 XT/XS over the GTIs i felt they were a more balanced less nose heavy.
I wanted one- a 205 XS- as my first car- because I knew I couldn’t insure a gti.
Vivid memories of test driving one with my dad 30 years ago.
Didn’t buy it in the end- a 309 xsi came up for sale so I bought that.
Fantastic little cars the 205. I love them.
And like the mk1 golf, a design classic.
It's looking like the 205 might take the win overall. Currently ahead by 10% with a day to go.
I predicted the Integrale when it was clear that modern was not the 'theme' and see it's in the final with the 205.
I'm afraid my vote went with the Integrale based on my experience driving a period rally car, not a road car.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxSfFZ4y/8-A040-AA5-2823-41-D8-BC60-63-FF2-CB65-E47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJ4Qmq0W)
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The 205 will win imo.
A good mate of mine loved his 205s and Visas but then again he owned a Citroën specialist garage. So ive driven and fixed most versions :lipsrsealed:. I liked the 205 XT/XS over the GTIs i felt they were a more balanced less nose heavy.
I wanted one- a 205 XS- as my first car- because I knew I couldn’t insure a gti.
Vivid memories of test driving one with my dad 30 years ago.
Didn’t buy it in the end- a 309 xsi came up for sale so I bought that.
Fantastic little cars the 205. I love them.
And like the mk1 golf, a design classic.
It's looking like the 205 might take the win overall. Currently ahead by 10% with a day to go.
I predicted the Integrale when it was clear that modern was not the 'theme' and see it's in the final with the 205.
I'm afraid my vote went with the Integrale based on my experience driving a period rally car, not a road car.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxSfFZ4y/8-A040-AA5-2823-41-D8-BC60-63-FF2-CB65-E47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJ4Qmq0W)
Now that’s a proper rally car. Nice!
My brother has had 2 evo 2s, his current one he’s had for over 10 years.
I’ve driven it a few times.
Not as usable day to day, nor as enjoyable to drive- in my view- as my 205.
He disagrees on the second point. He says he’ll never sell it.
I think frankel has done this “ World Cup “ before- I came across this, on the 205- on adrianflux.co.uk-
”Testament to the car’s brilliance was summed up by journalist Andrew Frankel, writing in MotorSport in 2013.
He was looking for a cheap and fun old car to replace his under-utilised old Porsche 911 and, after mulling over a BMW 2002, early Golf GTi and a “very tempting” Alfa GTV6, it was overseeing a world cup of hot hatches that made up his mind.
“In one corner sat the Lancia Delta Integrale Evoluzione 2, in the other the rather more humble Peugeot 205 GTI,” he wrote.
“Lacking the Lancia’s power, pedigree, four-wheel drive, turbo, multi-valve head and competition pedigree I expected the Peugeot to compete only for value for money. I have rarely been more wrong. The fact is that after a couple of hours skidding around a test track it was the little Peugeot which steered better, changed gear and direction better and was, in short, the more fun to drive.”
So he bought one, a 1990 1.9-litre, in which he spent “the Christmas period dodging the floods and welding a smile to my face”.
And that’s the joy of the Peugeot 205 GTI – a car that looks great, goes like stink, and provides all the fun you could ever need.”
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Now that’s a proper rally car. Nice!
My brother has had 2 evo 2s, his current one he’s had for over 10 years.
I’ve driven it a few times.
Not as usable day to day, nor as enjoyable to drive- in my view- as my 205.
He disagrees on the second point. He says he’ll never sell it.
I think frankel has done this “ World Cup “ before- I came across this, on the 205- on adrianflux.co.uk-
”Testament to the car’s brilliance was summed up by journalist Andrew Frankel, writing in MotorSport in 2013.
He was looking for a cheap and fun old car to replace his under-utilised old Porsche 911 and, after mulling over a BMW 2002, early Golf GTi and a “very tempting” Alfa GTV6, it was overseeing a world cup of hot hatches that made up his mind.
“In one corner sat the Lancia Delta Integrale Evoluzione 2, in the other the rather more humble Peugeot 205 GTI,” he wrote.
“Lacking the Lancia’s power, pedigree, four-wheel drive, turbo, multi-valve head and competition pedigree I expected the Peugeot to compete only for value for money. I have rarely been more wrong. The fact is that after a couple of hours skidding around a test track it was the little Peugeot which steered better, changed gear and direction better and was, in short, the more fun to drive.”
So he bought one, a 1990 1.9-litre, in which he spent “the Christmas period dodging the floods and welding a smile to my face”.
And that’s the joy of the Peugeot 205 GTI – a car that looks great, goes like stink, and provides all the fun you could ever need.”
I've not driven a 205 so can't comment but I can totally see the appeal and your passion.
I did seriously consider an Integrale at one point but as much as I like them, the practicalities of ownership stopped me.
I recall the Frankel article and you're right but in a way, it's interesting to revisit these over time to see which cars stand the test of time. Subjective of course and tinged with nostalgia but now that we're post peak hot hatch, I wonder if we'd all feel the same way in another ten years? Would a younger reviewer without the experience of having driven them in period or the memory of what cars were like before WLTP, EPAS and so on consider them to be as fun?
Whenever I have climbed into an old car, I'm reminded where progress has been made and where we've gone backwards. Steering feel is always a defining difference.
I had a play with a Cupra Born the other day. As good as it is for what it is, I doubt we'll be including it in any list of fun hot hatches in future.
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205 wins, but was close at 52% of the total votes.
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205 wins, but was close at 52% of the total votes.
It was close. Yusee will be pleased. :cool:
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Haha yeah- closer than I thought it would be- but the right result!
@AGB, some interesting points. It is fascinating to speculate as to how a car will be viewed in years to come- I wouldn’t be surprised if the mk7 golf is in the mix for “ greatest of all time “ when time is called on the traditional ICE hot hatch in a few years time- “ peak hot hatch “ as you call it.
I drove my brother’s integale from his home in woking to the lancia specialist in Reading once when he needed to get it serviced. The steering was heavy, and on the wrong side and the cabin noisy at anything above urban speeds. It was hard work hustling it through traffic that day. A great car but not a great hot hatch.
One important difference in driving these older cars now- as opposed to back in the day- relates to modern tyres. My 205 is on michelin PS3s. Much more stable- and as a result less fun- than when I had my first one.
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I had a Fiat Coupe 16V Turbo back in the day, the same engine as in the Integrale.
Very good engine, and reliable as long as the cambelt is done every 24,000 miles. It is a short interval is due to the belt being a narrow width.
Proper old school turbo power delivery, nothing, then some lag and then the boost hits hard.
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I had a Fiat Coupe 16V Turbo back in the day, the same engine as in the Integrale.
Very good engine, and reliable as long as the cambelt is done every 24,000 miles. It is a short interval is due to the belt being a narrow width.
Proper old school turbo power delivery, nothing, then some lag and then the boost hits hard.
Was the belt change an engine out job?
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Not on the 16v turbo. It was on the later 20V turbo, as being 5 cylinder it was longer and the cam cover was right up against the chassis rail.
However you could undo the engine mounts, shift it over enough to get the job done without an engine removal (unofficially)
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Haha yeah- closer than I thought it would be- but the right result!
@AGB, some interesting points. It is fascinating to speculate as to how a car will be viewed in years to come- I wouldn’t be surprised if the mk7 golf is in the mix for “ greatest of all time “ when time is called on the traditional ICE hot hatch in a few years time- “ peak hot hatch “ as you call it.
I drove my brother’s integale from his home in woking to the lancia specialist in Reading once when he needed to get it serviced. The steering was heavy, and on the wrong side and the cabin noisy at anything above urban speeds. It was hard work hustling it through traffic that day. A great car but not a great hot hatch.
One important difference in driving these older cars now- as opposed to back in the day- relates to modern tyres. My 205 is on michelin PS3s. Much more stable- and as a result less fun- than when I had my first one.
I suspect the result prompted a few people to check the classifieds. Self included. :whistle:
When I was up in Scotland last year in the TCR, I was behind a black i20N for quite a way. I was struck by how good it looked in black - they're always blue and it looked a lot smaller than I thought. It felt like a contemporary successor to the 205GTI.
You hear stories of people driving cars with heavy clutches or heavy steering as dailies. I don't know how they can enjoy it. The last time I parked something without power assisted steering, I was staggered at the low speed speed steering weight when parallel parking.
I agree with you on the MK7 - I think they hit the balance between analogue/digital if you know what I mean. I had a Taycan for a bit and the haptic touch interface was a distracting nightmare. It was tactile in terms of feedback when you touched the right area but the lack of physical controls just created this feeling of separation and required you to look at the screen. I think history will judge the transition to 'glass cockpits' badly and we'll regard cars with buttons much more favourably.
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@AGB,
I think VW absolutely nailed the hot hatch brief in every way with the mk7. Other than, perhaps, adding 50 more horsepower ( easily done), hard to see how it can be improved upon as a daily duties/fun to drive car.
The interior is spot on.
It’s also a fine looking car- (even the lower spec/ non performance mk7s) which I think is massively important when it comes to how a car will be remembered.
309 gti- excellent hot hatch, used in some performance driving schools iirc, because it was thought to handle better than the 205. Now forgotten because it wasn’t a looker. 205 is still a looker today, and will always make a “ best ever “ list
The existence of the clubsport S also gives serious kudos to the mk7 Gti brand. A car that held its own with the very best performance cars of any kind.
Yeah, I’d say the mk7 gti is the best hot hatch ever made- whether it will be remembered in the same way as the 205 or the mk1 golf, only time will tell
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I'm starting to think Chris Harris was right when he said "And to those saying it - yes I totally agree a mk.7.5 appeals far more. Will probably be remembered as the last great Golf GTi. Strange times"
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Wow, that clio must’ve been an absolute lemon to be less reliable than an alfa.
The clios were great hatchbacks- and that one looks a beauty.
We have had around 16 Alfa's in the family over the last 20 or so years, all of them have been pretty reliable. No less reliable than any other car that we have owned really.
I think they get a bad rep because they don't tolerate neglect as well as some cars. For example drive them for months without checking the oil and you are going to get bitten on the backside, but looked after they are fine.
The Renault electrics were a joke, the wiring looked like an accident in a Spaghetti Factory.
I have more confidence in the reliability of the Wife's Giulietta than I do in the Golf. The Alfa has never suffered a leaking water pump or a clutch pedal getting stuck to the floor.
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Wow, that clio must’ve been an absolute lemon to be less reliable than an alfa.
The clios were great hatchbacks- and that one looks a beauty.
We have had around 16 Alfa's in the family over the last 20 or so years, all of them have been pretty reliable. No less reliable than any other car that we have owned really.
I think they get a bad rep because they don't tolerate neglect as well as some cars. For example drive them for months without checking the oil and you are going to get bitten on the backside, but looked after they are fine.
The Renault electrics were a joke, the wiring looked like an accident in a Spaghetti Factory.
I have more confidence in the reliability of the Wife's Giulietta than I do in the Golf. The Alfa has never suffered a leaking water pump or a clutch pedal getting stuck to the floor.
Yeah it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment tbh.
I’ve had 2 alfas- they were both fine, no significant issues.
That said, I’m sure german cars are better built than Italian ones. Or french ones for that matter. I think that’s what you mean by “ don’t tolerate neglect as well as some “
@willni posted a good reply recently to a question about the golf 7 reliability. Summary was- if you look after it, it’ll look after you!
I remember reading the reliability surveys done in the 90s ( Jd power?) and often seeing Skoda at the top of that and some of the premium brands lower down. I remember thinking these surveys say more about the owners- and their expectations- than it does about the cars themselves.
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
I was in a Cupra Born the other day and it was like the MKVIII, lots of hard plastics and scratchy feels.
If you've ever had to drain a washer fluid bottle in a MKVIIx Golf, you'll take the lay out comment back. It's an awful assembly that routes through all the dead space in the engine. Classic example of design by designer not mechanic. Still don't know why they don't provide a drain plug and provide an owner accessible point. Well, I do but I don't like it.
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
I was in a Cupra Born the other day and it was like the MKVIII, lots of hard plastics and scratchy feels.
If you've ever had to drain a washer fluid bottle in a MKVIIx Golf, you'll take the lay out comment back. It's an awful assembly that routes through all the dead space in the engine. Classic example of design by designer not mechanic. Still don't know why they don't provide a drain plug and provide an owner accessible point. Well, I do but I don't like it.
I did have a Mk2 Leon FR a couple of years back and the interior plastics were similar to the Giulietta. Hard and scratchy, but unlike the Alfa no rattles.
Hopefully I won't have to drain that washer bottle. I would be tempted to drill a hole and fit a plug to seal it back up after.
With the Alfa you need to remove the rear section of undertray to drain the oil, the front section of undertray (Hundreds of screws) to do the air filer, and if you do the oil filter the driver side wheel and wheelarch liner needs to come out. Then when it is undone oil pi$$es all over the subframe and suspension arm.
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
I was in a Cupra Born the other day and it was like the MKVIII, lots of hard plastics and scratchy feels.
If you've ever had to drain a washer fluid bottle in a MKVIIx Golf, you'll take the lay out comment back. It's an awful assembly that routes through all the dead space in the engine. Classic example of design by designer not mechanic. Still don't know why they don't provide a drain plug and provide an owner accessible point. Well, I do but I don't like it.
Why not just pump or syphon the water out?
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
I was in a Cupra Born the other day and it was like the MKVIII, lots of hard plastics and scratchy feels.
If you've ever had to drain a washer fluid bottle in a MKVIIx Golf, you'll take the lay out comment back. It's an awful assembly that routes through all the dead space in the engine. Classic example of design by designer not mechanic. Still don't know why they don't provide a drain plug and provide an owner accessible point. Well, I do but I don't like it.
Why not just pump or syphon the water out?
I tried that, and the dipstick tube isn't over the lowest part of the sump. So my Pela extractor left behind over 1 litre of old oil.
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I was questioning the post on draining the washer bottle👍
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Yes my bad I realised after I posted. :embarrassed:
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German cars definitely have better built interiors, the Giulietta we have feels decidedly low rent. But the oily bits are decent, except for how they have laid out things like the filters which makes it hard to service.
I was in a Cupra Born the other day and it was like the MKVIII, lots of hard plastics and scratchy feels.
If you've ever had to drain a washer fluid bottle in a MKVIIx Golf, you'll take the lay out comment back. It's an awful assembly that routes through all the dead space in the engine. Classic example of design by designer not mechanic. Still don't know why they don't provide a drain plug and provide an owner accessible point. Well, I do but I don't like it.
Why not just pump or syphon the water out?
What happened in the end but it would have been easier to just put a hole at the lowest point in the system.