GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: gazmondo35 on 16 January 2014, 21:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jVPZUXOYM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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I don't think any real conclusion could be made unless they both had the same gearbox. Are there many people who are going to use a MKVII on track anyway?
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I hope people get the idea that a real car has to be a manual. This proves it and it's faster too although only with 10 hp more. :laugh:
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I hope people get the idea that a real car has to be a manual. This proves it and it's faster too although only with 10 hp more. :laugh:
How does this prove that manual is faster than a DSG? (Which it isn't by the way) The manual only did it 1.6 seconds quicker with a limited slip differential & 10 more BHP over the DSG non PP. If it was a DSG with PP then it would have been the same or probably quicker than the manual PP. The differential on the PP is amazing for tracks as the reviewer kept saying.
I agree that this test is stupid however as they should have used the same gearbox in both cars. How does it measure the improvement of the PP when the gearbox difference would have affected the results?
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Not watched it (in work so can't access youchoob) but...
Would it not prove that if performance is the only consideration in your decision making process and you could only afford either the PP or DSG, then the PP is the way to go?
Apart from that, as said - it's a pretty useless test, lol!
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Not to mention that the PP had 19" wheels that perform better on track. This test is not a test at all.
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Not to mention that the PP had 19" wheels that perform better on track. This test is not a test at all.
Pretty sure 18" wheels are better suited to 'performance' driving?
J
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The fact that a DSG is supposedly quicker, and the PP car was on slower 19" wheels, suggests that the PP makes a big difference (more so than the 2 seconds shown).
However, the test is pointless as the cars should have been identical other than the PP in order for a fair comparison :rolleyes:
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+1 on 19's being slower.
& +1 on the test needing to be identical.
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19" wheels that perform better on track.
Do they? And why might that be?
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19" wheels that perform better on track.
Do they? And why might that be?
Because they have the better tyres ... Pirelli P-Zero :drool:
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I wonder how much of all this actually matters. Gains of around a second a mile on a B road blast are going to be negated by cautiousness around unsighted corners for example anyway.
Say the GTI and GTI PP are going for it on the public road. The PP wouldn't be able to pull away because it's always easier to follow, and if the PP was behind, it would never be safe enough to overtake if they were both at full chat.
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I think there are two many different variables to factor on public roads etc but the bottom line is that the GTi Performance Pack is always going to have the edge. How bigger edge depends on the road, conditions and how big your manhood is :grin:
On the Nurburing the GTi PP is over 8.5 seconds faster than the standard GTi, that is a massive difference. :cool:
For me, having the VAQ deal with slippery or traction situations rather over the XDS system was a big plus.
The XDS system will heat and wear your pads & discs far quicker that the VAQ diff. :laugh:
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I think there are two many different variables to factor on public roads
But isn't this where the majority of theses cars are going to spend the majority of their time?
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I think there are two many different variables to factor on public roads
But isn't this where the majority of theses cars are going to spend the majority of their time?
Correct but the VAQ diff still has the advantage over a standard GTi in slippery or low traction conditions....
Bottom line is that the GTi Performance Pack sits between the GTi and Golf R...... it all comes down to the individual and if he/she things its worth the asking price.
For the money its worth it....
Larger all round ventilated Golf R brake system
VAQ electronically control diff
10ps more with slightly different torque / ps ranges
:cool:
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Journalists have pages to fill and advertising space to sell. That's what they've done and maybe VW supplied the cars deliberately from the press fleet with different enough specs to not give too true a comparison.
At the end of the day a few seconds on the public road here and there are meaningless.
You buy the PP because you want the bigger brakes and VAQ diff not the 10bhp which is only there to give some added perception of value to the package. The Cupra will be sold as a pukka hardcore performance FWD hatch, the R sits above the GTI with masses of extra power and 4WD at a sensible premium to offset its anonymous (Q car) styling.
If you ever plan to take your GTI on a track you will spec the PP
If you drive on slippery country roads you will spec the PP
If you ever plan on modifying your car you will spec the PP
In my opinion if you're going to do none of the above then you're probably far better off with a GTD anyway :whistle:
And if you're going to do all of the above maybe you're better off with an R? Dunno, the R is too overkill for me so I'll take a GTI PP please.
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On the Nurburing the GTi PP is over 8.5 seconds faster than the standard GTi, that is a massive difference.
It is not a massive difference 8.5 seconds in about 8.5 minutes is about 1.7% or to put it another way about 0.5 seconds per mile ... I reckon you'd see a bigger improvement by fitting semi-slick tyres to the non-PP, for example...
I'm not questioning the validity of the PP, or saying that there is not improvement, I'm merely pointing out that the difference is not night and day, even on the track, more an incremental improvement... on the road you'd have to be driving outside what most people would consider reasonable on a public road for a long distance with drivers of equal skill etc. etc. to see a measurable difference.
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Hmmm, you've not sold it to me.
The larger brakes are going to cost more to replace, so cost of the PP won't stop at the initial £1000.
The diff, does have it's advantages when pressing on, but how often will anyone get the opportunity to exploit it?
10ps is neither here nor there. Standard cars outputs can vary by that amount, so in theory a good GTI could have more power than a bad PP.
I dare say that the PP will make it a slightly better car, but I can't see that it's £1000 better. The reality is, the PP should be standard, but it's not. The marketing men just want to squeeze more money out of those that will be prepared to pay it.
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The pp is worth a grand for the fancy diff alone, but we already know that. I was just going to say that the new cupra will have two variants as well. 265 and 280...
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Let's not forget the desirability of the PP car when it comes to resale...
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Ok lets put it in simple terms, the advantages of buying the Performance Pack
Upgraded brake system
- better stopping performance, less fading and better cooling
VAQ e-diff
- eliminates understeering, helps traction, higher cornering speeds and reduces brake disc/pad wear
Upgraded ECU mapping
- extra 10ps, higher top speed and 0-62mph time. Also a difference in torque & ps banding compared to standard GTi
Its down to the individual and what they want to spec on the car, come re-sale time I do think that the Performance Pack GTi's which be more sought after.
(http://www.vwvortex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/volkswagen-vaq-differential.jpg)
(http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/25303/VWMQB_platform_04-L.jpg)
(http://www.fourtitude.com/news/uploads/Features/vaq2.gif)
:cool:
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I would just like to point out that it's not all about stats and how fast you theoretically could drive when comparing the two.
It's about the feedback you get as a driver and whether the driver can justify the extra cost.
My personal opinion is that PP is worth it. I can't wait for my replacement to arrive with the PP, it will be good to compare my current non PP with PP.
J
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I agree... :laugh:
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People talk about how expensive pp is, but in reality it's a bargain when you consider 19 inch rims are about the same price,why wouldn't you spec it.
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People talk about how expensive pp is, but in reality it's a bargain when you consider 19 inch rims are about the same price,why wouldn't you spec it.
I was greedy and specced the 19 inch rims too :whistle: :shocked: :rolleyes: :laugh:
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I think the best comparison is between megane rs >i pp,the golf is only about 1 sec slower , which considering the Megane is pretty much a track car shows how good the golf is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hZwUuFX5A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from Samsung Mobile
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Let's not forget the desirability of the PP car when it comes to resale...
Two simple reasons why I specced the PP
1) I firmly believe that a GTI with PP is going to be more sought after in the second hand market and therefore be worth more. It's one of the few options to me that adds value due to it's appeal to potential buyers
2) It will inevitably happen one day that you will be sat at a set of traffic lights and another GTI will pull up alongside with the PP. Knowing that their car is slightly better than yours would annoy me immensely, but that's just me. :grin:
I'm very unlikely to ever track my car or mod it to any massive extent. I'm not very likely to absolutely rag it either but I still wanted the PP and it was absolutely the first thing on my wish list and the last thing I would get rid of
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I bought the Performance Pack for the GTI logo's on the brake system lol :)
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I think the best comparison is between megane rs >i pp,the golf is only about 1 sec slower , which considering the Megane is pretty much a track car shows how good the golf is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hZwUuFX5A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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It would be PP for me, that lap time is very respectable given the 35 ps advantage the Megane has.
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I think the best comparison is between megane rs >i pp,the golf is only about 1 sec slower , which considering the Megane is pretty much a track car shows how good the golf is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hZwUuFX5A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from Samsung Mobile
It would be PP for me, that lap time is very respectable given the 35 ps advantage the Megane has.
The GTi is a good all round hatchback, yes it's not as powerful as it's rivals and there is also the more powerful Golf R available.... but it's the best middle ground car when you factor in performance, economy, desirability, running costs, looks and Volkswagen build etc
I have no regrets buying a GTi, it's lovely and ticks all my boxes :)
The Performance Pack is a nice addition but if VW didn't build a PP model, I would have still picked it over any of the rivals including the Golf R.
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Let's not forget the desirability of the PP car when it comes to resale...
Two simple reasons why I specced the PP
1) I firmly believe that a GTI with PP is going to be more sought after in the second hand market and therefore be worth more. It's one of the few options to me that adds value due to it's appeal to potential buyers
2) It will inevitably happen one day that you will be sat at a set of traffic lights and another GTI will pull up alongside with the PP. Knowing that their car is slightly better than yours would annoy me immensely, but that's just me. :grin:
I'm very unlikely to ever track my car or mod it to any massive extent. I'm not very likely to absolutely rag it either but I still wanted the PP and it was absolutely the first thing on my wish list and the last thing I would get rid of
Same here! I had to buy the fastest factory GTI I could or I'd regret it :wink:
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19" wheels that perform better on track.
Do they? And why might that be?
The 19" tyres have lower profile and this is an advantage on fast corners due to the more rigid sidewalls. On road it is a complete waste of money because the tarmac is not as smooth as in the track and you will see no advantage. I ordered my PP with the (standard here) 17" Brooklyns. And I must say that the PP is phenomenal in wet hairpins. I found it out the other day as it kept its line and pushed me to the inside of the turn while I was feeding the power before the apex. Money well spent, very happy indeed.
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Excellent piece of Kit , and with DCC and 19's for looks ,possible to set it up for a multitude of driving styles ,
and road conditions ,Great Car . :smiley:
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For me, same as Craig and Monsta.. I didn't want to spend ~£30k and have to feel like I didn't get the best golf there was.
Ofcourse now the R has come out ;)
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For me, same as Craig and Monsta.. I didn't want to spend ~£30k and have to feel like I didn't get the best golf there was.
Ofcourse now the R has come out ;)
Don't worry, the Golf R doesn't have the VAQ so it will probably understeer like most other Haldex 4WD systems.... Volkswagen have missed a trick, they should have added VAQ to the Golf R on both the front and rear axel. :cool:
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The 19" tyres have lower profile and this is an advantage on fast corners due to the more rigid sidewalls. On road it is a complete waste of money because the tarmac is not as smooth as in the track and you will see no advantage. I ordered my PP with the (standard here) 17" Brooklyns. And I must say that the PP is phenomenal in wet hairpins. I found it out the other day as it kept its line and pushed me to the inside of the turn while I was feeding the power before the apex. Money well spent, very happy indeed.
You're right in theory, if and only if, the suspension maintains a consistent contact patch under load i.e. when the suspension is loaded there are no changes in geometry... which is unlikely. Then there is the discussion about mass, how does the mass of the 18" wheel/tyre combo compare with the 19"?
Side wall stiffness is one (small) aspect... bigger is not always better when it comes to grip, never mind handling...
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The 19" tyres have lower profile and this is an advantage on fast corners due to the more rigid sidewalls. On road it is a complete waste of money because the tarmac is not as smooth as in the track and you will see no advantage. I ordered my PP with the (standard here) 17" Brooklyns. And I must say that the PP is phenomenal in wet hairpins. I found it out the other day as it kept its line and pushed me to the inside of the turn while I was feeding the power before the apex. Money well spent, very happy indeed.
You're right in theory, if and only if, the suspension maintains a consistent contact patch under load i.e. when the suspension is loaded there are no changes in geometry... which is unlikely. Then there is the discussion about mass, how does the mass of the 18" wheel/tyre combo compare with the 19"?
Side wall stiffness is one (small) aspect... bigger is not always better when it comes to grip, never mind handling...
I'm sure I read a report from Honda when they were facelifting the nsx that 16" was the best for performance. What sizes do they use at the btcc?
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What sizes do they use at the btcc?
10J x 18
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For me, same as Craig and Monsta.. I didn't want to spend ~£30k and have to feel like I didn't get the best golf there was.
Ofcourse now the R has come out ;)
Don't worry, the Golf R doesn't have the VAQ so it will probably understeer like most other Haldex 4WD systems.... Volkswagen have missed a trick, they should have added VAQ to the Golf R on both the front and rear axel. :cool:
What's VAQUERO.
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For me, same as Craig and Monsta.. I didn't want to spend ~£30k and have to feel like I didn't get the best golf there was.
Ofcourse now the R has come out ;)
Don't worry, the Golf R doesn't have the VAQ so it will probably understeer like most other Haldex 4WD systems.... Volkswagen have missed a trick, they should have added VAQ to the Golf R on both the front and rear axel. :cool:
What's VAQUERO.
http://youtu.be/HQqh2Tv5Puc
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Thanks, although predictive text on the ipad is annoying
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The 19" tyres have lower profile and this is an advantage on fast corners due to the more rigid sidewalls. On road it is a complete waste of money because the tarmac is not as smooth as in the track and you will see no advantage. I ordered my PP with the (standard here) 17" Brooklyns. And I must say that the PP is phenomenal in wet hairpins. I found it out the other day as it kept its line and pushed me to the inside of the turn while I was feeding the power before the apex. Money well spent, very happy indeed.
You're right in theory, if and only if, the suspension maintains a consistent contact patch under load i.e. when the suspension is loaded there are no changes in geometry... which is unlikely. Then there is the discussion about mass, how does the mass of the 18" wheel/tyre combo compare with the 19"?
Side wall stiffness is one (small) aspect... bigger is not always better when it comes to grip, never mind handling...
You are right corgi. As for the mass and weight of the 18" compared to 19" you are right too. The handling on smaller wheels is better too. That's one of the reasons I kept the standard 17" Brooklyn alloys and didn't opt for the 18". Thanks for your information, keep them coming.