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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Bellend on 05 March 2012, 18:01
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Right so I sold a T4 Van last year in July. Sent the logbook off etc.
November comes and we get a fine for no tax. Send off a letter saying we don't own it etc. They say yeah it's fine.
Today have recieved a debt recovery and they are saying on the phone we are still liable.
Don't they have to prove that the logbook wasn't sent, rather then us proving we did etc?
How do I angle this? Thank you.
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Nope, all on you i'm afraid, i got f**ked over like this after an epic cool story bro!
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Really? That's rediculous.
How can:
1. We SORN the thing, when we don't own it
2. The new keeper do anything without the logbook?
Baring in mind that we knew nothing til we got the tax reminder/fine thing which says ignore it if you've recently sold the vehicle.
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Right so I sold a T4 Van last year in July. Sent the logbook off etc.
November comes and we get a fine for no tax. Send off a letter saying we don't own it etc. They say yeah it's fine.
Today have recieved a debt recovery and they are saying on the phone we are still liable.
Don't they have to prove that the logbook wasn't sent, rather then us proving we did etc?
How do I angle this? Thank you.
Sellers slip? Evidence of previous correspondence? Evidence of Postage? And as for 'Don't they have to prove that the logbook wasn't sent, rather then us proving we did etc?' What f**king plannet do you live on...
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
Dont do this.
I did and i only got off because of the baliffs actions!
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http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?214078
Happy. :smiley:
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
Dont do this.
I did and i only got off because of the baliffs actions!
But it's not his car anymore, why should it be his responsibility.
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
Dont do this.
I did and i only got off because of the baliffs actions!
But it's not his car anymore, why should it be his responsibility.
Because they dont give a f**k, i had to jump through hoops, write letters to 6 different depts/councils to prove i sold the car over a year ago. And still it was only dropped because the baliff was a jizz
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
Dont do this.
I did and i only got off because of the baliffs actions!
But it's not his car anymore, why should it be his responsibility.
do you think the baliffs would give a toss when there removing his belongings? also how oftern do you think the baliffs will here stuff like that do you really think they will belive him.
ide get onto the dvla and sort it out with them asap
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http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?214078
Happy. :smiley:
Just as I thought.
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We're moving soon anyway. :grin: See if they can find us. :evil:
Joking obviously.
DVLA Preston are shut, will be ringing them tomorrow.
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Just a side note, but i've changed my address 4 times since owning that car an the buggers still turned up at my new house!
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Just a side note, but i've changed my address 4 times since owning that car an the buggers still turned up at my new house!
I'd hit them with a lump of 4x2, then use a 4lb club hammer on them, then bung them into the back of an early 80s car and drive for hours, then push it off the edge of a cliff. That's how you deal with thick bully bois :grin:
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When you send away a log book the DVLA always send out a letter stating that you are no longer the registered keeper of the vehicle. Alarm bells should have been ringing when this did not arrive after a couple of weeks. When I sell mine I keep this letter for about 3 months before binning it as proof if anything happens but when the letter is issued then the problems stop. Sellers responsibility for making sure the details are changed or every numpty would just say they sent the logbook. Systems are in place for a good reason :smiley: :smiley:
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Just a side note, but i've changed my address 4 times since owning that car an the buggers still turned up at my new house!
I'd hit them with a lump of 4x2, then use a 4lb club hammer on them, then bung them into the back of an early 80s car and drive for hours, then push it off the edge of a cliff. That's how you deal with thick bully bois :grin:
No i punched one that had walked round the back of my house and into my kitchen, he also fell over an cut his head on the way out :evil:
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Just a side note, but i've changed my address 4 times since owning that car an the buggers still turned up at my new house!
I'd hit them with a lump of 4x2, then use a 4lb club hammer on them, then bung them into the back of an early 80s car and drive for hours, then push it off the edge of a cliff. That's how you deal with thick bully bois :grin:
No i punched one that had walked round the back of my house and into my kitchen, he also fell over an cut his head on the way out :evil:
Awesome :smiley:
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Tell them to f**k off, you sold it and sent the book off in the way in which they instruct.
Ignore the f**k*rs.
Dont do this.
I did and i only got off because of the baliffs actions!
But it's not his car anymore, why should it be his responsibility.
The V5 (Logbook) is proof of who the registered keeper is. NOT who the owner is. The registered keeper is responsible for taxing the car.
The DVLA will say that if you didn't hear from them within 6 weeks, to ring up and check.
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When you send away a log book the DVLA always send out a letter stating that you are no longer the registered keeper of the vehicle. Alarm bells should have been ringing when this did not arrive after a couple of weeks. When I sell mine I keep this letter for about 3 months before binning it as proof if anything happens but when the letter is issued then the problems stop. Sellers responsibility for making sure the details are changed or every numpty would just say they sent the logbook. Systems are in place for a good reason :smiley: :smiley:
Never knew this. :undecided:
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Tell them to take you to court, the onus is on them to prove that you did not post it rather than you proving you did. Read thye below post, it will explain all and tell you where to stick their demand. The DVLA do not even have a legal power to issue a fine, only a demand. As a biker we have had numerous run in's with them and they have been beaten every time at court. The DVLA have a horrendous record of loosing post and this alone will win your case as long as you can say where and when you posted it.
http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=195188&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=dvla&start=50
Interpretations Act 1978
"7.References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."
This basically means once you have posted it your liability is over whether or not they tell you to call them up if you don't recieve their paperwork. You don't even need to send it recorded.
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The DVLA want you to deliver the documents by post to the Sec of State.
I would send them a letter stating that under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 you have correctly addressed and stamped the envelope and that you sent the documents back to them as soon as you had sold the vehicle (Date and Location if possible). Therefore you have fully discharged any liability falling on you and that if your letter has not caused an update in the system then that is their problem not yours.
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Josh.
Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your response regarding the fine you wish to impose on myself.
I would like to point out that as the law stands; as soon as I posted my V5C to yourselves, as you requested, it is classed as a served notification. I have included below a quoted section of the Interpretations Act 1978 Section 7 which relates to the above.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
I would also like to point out that The Universal Postal Union (of which Britain is a signatory) makes it clear that, in the UK, post becomes the property of the recipient at the moment it is committed to the Royal Mail.
Both of the above make it very clear that it is not my fault that you claim not to have received the V5C document. I did post the V5C to your offices, and I am willing to sign an affidavit to that affect. I would like to point out that unless you can prove that I did not post the V5C then you do have no right to pursue this case any further.
Yours Sincerely"
Bellend.
I took this from a thread on Pistonheads, but I'd write the same thing.
Jonathan.
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...more.
"Contrary to recent claims, there is no basis in statute for the DVLA to send acknowledgement letters or for motorists to chase the DVLA if they haven't received one. The DVLA has admitted this in correspondence.
The wording on the V5C is ambiguous, because it can be read that you should complain (on their expensive telephone number) if you receive a letter before four weeks have elapsed.
To take the legal arguments a step further:
1. The Universal Postal Union (of which Britain is a signatory) makes it clear that, in the UK, post becomes the property of the recipient at the moment it is committed to the Royal Mail.
2. The Interpretation Act 1997 s7 makes it clear that a document sent by first-class post is deemed served. If the sender has proof of posting (or a witness), the DVLA's letter of acknowledgement is a mere distraction.
If he has no proof, he can swear an affidavit that the V5 was completed and posted. Of the cases that have been challenged as above, I'm not aware of any the DVLA has taken as far as a magistrates' court.
PD, via email"
Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/5835910/No-need-for-physical-proof-of-posting-documents-to-DVLA.html)
Which should be read along with this from a JP.
"I hesitate to take issue with any of the wise words that appear in 'Expert Advice', but the V5 Document clearly states on page 9 that "DVLA will issue an acknowledgement letter confirming that the keeper has discharged liability.
If you have not received an acknowledgment letter after 4 weeks please contact DVLA." I would therefore take issue with your guidance that "notification" takes places when you post the letter.
The legal guidance, in the courts that I sit in is that the mere act of posting the V5 does not discharge the keeper's legal liability but is a mitigating factor in sentencing especially when proof of posting can be presented.
Asked on 1 May 2010 by "A Sussex JP", Horsham"
This is the reply...
"I disagree. This "legal guidance" you are listening to is purely for the convenience of the DVLA. If you are saying that the keeper of a car is "legally" responsible for the mistakes and negligence of duty of the DVLA in recording keepership changes then I think the Court of Human Rights would have something to say about that.
In English and Scottish law (and I cannot understand why a JP does not know this) "notification" takes place as soon as notice is posted. It does when a NIP is posted to a registered keeper. So it has to the other way round. As was upheld in my friend's case. The DVLA cannot make up 'law' that overrides the law of the land to hide its mistakes.
That said, if you send a V5C you should send it Special Delivery or get proof of posting from the Post Office. And I agree that to avoid any unpleasantness, if you have not received an acknowledgement within 28 days, you should phone DVLA on the number in the booklet that accompanies a V5C. Do this with a phone on an account that keeps a record of your calls."
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/13938/magistrate-caught
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......and that's the reason I ask for legal advice here. Cheers, you're a ledgend.
I effing lol'd when I read Bellend though. :laugh:
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What a load of tosh I am reading here. Yes Sir I did sell the car and I did post the log book off......honest. What planet are you on ?? It is not the DVLA's responsibility to prove you did not send it as this is impossible !!!!! However it is your responsibility to ensure that you change the details of a logbook. As I said earlier the DVLA very kindly send out a letter confirming that you are no longer the registered keeper. This has been in place for some time and if the said letter does not arrive then you should chase up the DVLA to ensure the details are changed.
DVLA have every right to enforce a fine as they are a Government office and not a private company !!!!!!!
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What a load of tosh I am reading here. Yes Sir I did sell the car and I did post the log book off......honest. What planet are you on ?? It is not the DVLA's responsibility to prove you did not send it as this is impossible !!!!! However it is your responsibility to ensure that you change the details of a logbook.
Which he did.
DVLA have every right to enforce a fine as they are a Government office and not a private company !!!!!!!
No they don't.
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What a load of tosh I am reading here. Yes Sir I did sell the car and I did post the log book off......honest. What planet are you on ?? It is not the DVLA's responsibility to prove you did not send it as this is impossible !!!!! However it is your responsibility to ensure that you change the details of a logbook.
Which he did.
DVLA have every right to enforce a fine as they are a Government office and not a private company !!!!!!!
No they don't.
Then why did he not question why the confirmation letter never arrived ?? How the hell can DVLA prove he never sent the letter ?? Sellers responsibility to see the procedure through till the end.
And the DVLA is a Government office and therefore has every right to enforce a fine. How do you come to the conclusion a Government office cannot fine someone for not complying with rules which are very clearly explained on the DVLA website ??
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What a load of tosh I am reading here. Yes Sir I did sell the car and I did post the log book off......honest. What planet are you on ?? It is not the DVLA's responsibility to prove you did not send it as this is impossible !!!!! However it is your responsibility to ensure that you change the details of a logbook.
Which he did.
DVLA have every right to enforce a fine as they are a Government office and not a private company !!!!!!!
No they don't.
Then why did he not question why the confirmation letter never arrived ?? How the hell can DVLA prove he never sent the letter ?? Sellers responsibility to see the procedure through till the end.
And the DVLA is a Government office and therefore has every right to enforce a fine. How do you come to the conclusion a Government office cannot fine someone for not complying with rules which are very clearly explained on the DVLA website ??
For the reasons outlined previously.
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Read the what happens next section of the DVLA website.......this took me seconds to upload and has been live for years !!!!!!!!!!
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/DG_4022311
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Please tell me again why you believe a Government office cannot impose a fine on you ??
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Please tell me again why you believe a Government office cannot impose a fine on you ??
Beacause they're doing so for reasons outside of the previous owners control.
He forfilled his duty by using the method reccomended by the DVLA themselves.
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Please tell me again why you believe a Government office cannot impose a fine on you ??
Beacause they're doing so for reasons outside of the previous owners control.
He forfilled his duty by using the method reccomended by the DVLA themselves.
But he never received the confirmation letter from them as outlined on the website so therefore HE should have chased it up and no one else is to blame. And it does not matter why they choose to impose the fine....the fact is the Government is the highest ranking office in the country and if they fine you then you are legally obliged to respond with either an appeal or payment. That's the law unfortunately. So by the guidelines set out on the DVLA website Bellend is still liable for the vehicle as he never completed the procedure.
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Please tell me again why you believe a Government office cannot impose a fine on you ??
Beacause they're doing so for reasons outside of the previous owners control.
He forfilled his duty by using the method reccomended by the DVLA themselves.
But he never received the confirmation letter from them as outlined on the website so therefore HE should have chased it up and no one else is to blame. And it does not matter why they choose to impose the fine....the fact is the Government is the highest ranking office in the country and if they fine you then you are legally obliged to respond with either an appeal or payment. That's the law unfortunately. So by the guidelines set out on the DVLA website Bellend is still liable for the vehicle as he never completed the procedure.
Pipe down boy and leave this to the ones in the know :wink:
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The ones that know nothing like you then :wink: :wink:
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I got a "Vehicle Tax Reminder" Letter for a Recovery vehicle I sold 2 months previous,
I filled the V5 in when I sold it & posted it 1st class post,
Upon recieving the reminder letter I wrote to DVLE & explained I sold it & had sent the V5 off for change of ownership,In the letter I Gave them the new keepers address & also included a photo copy of the sale recipt that both me & the new keeper had a copy of.
About 2 weeks later I got a letter back from DVLA saying "thank you for letting us know about hte change of keeper & that I was no longer liable for the vehicle"
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You don't have to contact them if you don't want to. This much is very true. But then don't cry when they send you a fine as you are still the registered keeper until the confirmation letter arrives as clearly explained on the website. If you choose to not see the procedure through till the end then you run the risk of getting fines/letters about the vehicle.
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The website clearly says that until the registered keeper details are changed by DVLA you are still liable for the vehicle. Then further down the web page it states that when the details are changed the confirmation letter is automatically sent out. ChrisR103 explained that he was sent a letter from the DVLA but he had proof of sale which the website advises you to keep until the details have been amended.
Whenever I have sold a vehicle I have posted the logbook off the next day and then await the confirmation letter, so far I have never not received one !!!!!
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The question is, what is on the DVLA website, is it enforceable in court?
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The question is, what is on the DVLA website, is it enforceable in court?
I believe that most of the stuff on the website is for guidelines. But the procedures for registering a vehicle are enforcable and with the DVLA being a Government office then any fines are legal whereas a private company have not got a leg to stand on.
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What the DVLA say and what they can actually do in LAW are 2 different things.
1. They CANNOT fine you as there is no statute law stating this, however they can issue a demand the same as you, me or Bellend. The fact they are a government quango means nothing.
2. DVLA cannot make you contact them if they mess up and they don't recieve / lose your letter and the system isn't updates.
3. DVLA cannot alter statute law to suit their own interpretations ie Interpretations Act.
The DVLA have no teeth at all when you have followed LAWFUL procedure and not one they have made up. They cannot fine you and the only way they can get money back is due to a court order. They thrive on people getting scared by their long words and monetary demands. If certain people want to run like sheep to a rogering with them then carry on.
As soon as you post that letter, that is all the law requires. Full stop. Court after court keep finding the defendant innocent, what more proof could you want
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Are you for real Deano?
You're either an employee of the DVLA or an imbecile.
Despite your protestations, you are incorrect.
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What the DVLA say and what they can actually do in LAW are 2 different things.
1. They cannot fine you as there is no statute law stating this, however they can issue a demand the same as you, me or Bellend.
2. DVLA cannot make you contact them if they mess up and they don't recieve / lose your letter and the system isn't updates.
3. DVLA cannot alter statute law to suit their own interpretations ie Interpretations Act.
The DVLA have no teeth at all when you have followed LAWFUL procedure and not one they have made up. They cannot fine you and the only way they can get money back is due to a court order. They thrive on people getting scared by their long words and monetary demands. If certain people want to run like sheep to a rogering with them then carry on.
As soon as you post that letter, that is all the law requires. Full stop
Get real Mate.......the DVLA don't make things up and their website has been active for years explaining what needs to be done. Where are they making it up ?? And if you choose not to pay a Government issued fine then you run the risk of a visit from the Bailliffs which is where most find themselves.
I am not going to say anymore on this matter but can rest assured when I sell a vehicle I do the right procedures and will not be getting a knock on my door......and if I do I will promise them I sent a letter :grin: :grin:
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Are you for real Deano?
You're either an employee of the DVLA or an imbecile.
Despite your protestations, you are incorrect.
Says Mr knows nothing who is always right............not arguing with an idiot like yourself.
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...And if you choose not to pay a Government issued fine then you run the risk of a visit from the Bailliffs which is where most find themselves.
in:
Well, no. A bailliff is an official of the court, and cannot enter your premises or such without a Court Order. Which can only be issued by a court for a non payment of a fine, for example, if you lose a case against you. Seeing as you cannot be prosecuted by the DVLA you ain't goona be visited by a Bailiff.
Tidy Darts.
:rolleyes:
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Are you for real Deano?
You're either an employee of the DVLA or an imbecile.
Despite your protestations, you are incorrect.
Says Mr knows nothing who is always right............not arguing with an idiot like yourself.
But if I'm always right... :rolleyes:
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And where did I mention the Bailliff being in the house ?? A bailliff CAN visit without entering the premises and if your car is parked outside CAN and WOULD be entered on their form !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read the posts correctly before you try to say everyone else is wrong and you are right :wink:
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Are you for real Deano?
You're either an employee of the DVLA or an imbecile.
Despite your protestations, you are incorrect.
Says Mr knows nothing who is always right............not arguing with an idiot like yourself.
But if I'm always right... :rolleyes:
Which most of the time you are not...........opinions are not facts :smug: :smug:
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Are you for real Deano?
You're either an employee of the DVLA or an imbecile.
Despite your protestations, you are incorrect.
Says Mr knows nothing who is always right............not arguing with an idiot like yourself.
But if I'm always right... :rolleyes:
Which most of the time you are not...........opinions are not facts :smug: :smug:
(http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/the_flying_elvi/417176_372535269442599_205344452828349_1378927_2141061429_n.jpg)
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Owned :nerd:
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And where did I mention the Bailliff being in the house ?? A bailliff CAN visit without entering the premises and if your car is parked outside CAN and WOULD be entered on their form !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read the posts correctly before you try to say everyone else is wrong and you are right :wink:
And if you choose not to pay a Government issued fine then you run the risk of a visit from the Bailliffs which is where most find themselves.
Well unless you live in your car, a Bailiff has to serve you with papers.
A nod to the MK6 section. A bailiff cannot take a car on finance. :laugh:
:rolleyes:
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And where did I mention the Bailliff being in the house ?? A bailliff CAN visit without entering the premises and if your car is parked outside CAN and WOULD be entered on their form !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read the posts correctly before you try to say everyone else is wrong and you are right :wink:
And if you choose not to pay a Government issued fine then you run the risk of a visit from the Bailliffs which is where most find themselves.
Well unless you live in your car, a Bailiff has to serve you with papers.
A nod to the MK6 section. A bailiff cannot take a car on finance. :laugh:
:rolleyes:
Ever heard of Royal Mail ?? And before you start spouting off this cannot be done I had it done to me some years back. The Bailliffs letter arrived with my car details on their list telling me not to sell the car. I sorted things out with them and have since grown up....maybe you should try it ??
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Nope, all on you i'm afraid, i got f**ked over like this after an epic cool story bro!
Same here, paid it after loads of arguing. Poop happens.
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Nope, all on you i'm afraid, i got f**ked over like this after an epic cool story bro!
Same here, paid it after loads of arguing. Poop happens.
yeah sorry about that, the call of the V is strong :evil:
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Woah woah woah.
The DVLA, have sent me the letter back in November saying that they have notified the change.
Now I get this.
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Woah woah woah.
The DVLA, have sent me the letter back in November saying that they have notified the change.
Now I found this.
*sigh
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Woah woah woah.
The DVLA, have sent me the letter back in November saying that they have notified the change.
Now I get this.
nice of you to let everyone know
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Right so I sold a T4 Van last year in July. Sent the logbook off etc.
November comes and we get a fine for no tax. Send off a letter saying we don't own it etc. They say yeah it's fine.
Today have recieved a debt recovery and they are saying on the phone we are still liable.
Don't they have to prove that the logbook wasn't sent, rather then us proving we did etc?
How do I angle this? Thank you.
Fair enough it wasn't all that clear.
Anyhow, letter written etc. Think I'll be winning this one.
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(http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/the_flying_elvi/mebeard.jpg)
Josho. This is my disdain face.
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(http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/the_flying_elvi/mebeard.jpg)
Josho. This is my disdain face.
Been a long year. :sad:
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Absolute Cajun chod
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(http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/the_flying_elvi/mebeard.jpg)
Josho. This is my disdain face.
You handsome devil, you.
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Deano, to issue a fine Parliament and the House of Lords must pass what we know as a statute. They have issued no such document for the DVLA therefore their demands are as valid as me demanding money from Bellend on a piece of paper.
Secondly Bailiffs instructed by the DVLA have no power at all, they are basically acting as civil debt collectors. They cannot touch your property or enter your premise without you inviting them to and them serving you papers. Court bailiffs with a court order is a different matter however as the case will never get to court then it's irrelevent.
Government agencies have to stick to the same rules as private companies, if they have no power in law they cannot do something and get made to look like fools in court.
If you bothered to search the web for DVLA cases you will find that I and others are right and you are wrong.
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DVLA are terrible, they sent me a letter yonks ago about my car not being SORN and they would fine me, so I sent them a lovely letter explaining how incompetent as they are and they
ones who lost the letter and I sent them a copy of the sorn application I filled out before hand, to which they dropped their nonsense and SORN'd my car which should of been done ages ago.
But as Elvi has said, you can always do an affidavit to acknowledge thats you served the papers via a county court or a commissioner of oaths.
Also demanding money is one thing, another is taking it to a court and getting an order for the bailiffs to instruct on or enforce.
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(http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/the_flying_elvi/mebeard.jpg)
Josho. This is my disdain face.
Poor effort. You need to work on that some more.
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OK. I'll use it for mocking contempt instead,
:grin:
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all sorted then, good, i thank you and goodbye :smiley:
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^^^^
Did you forget to hit the delete button. . . . .Slacking Chuff :lipsrsealed: :grin:
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just easing back into it, give me chance :laugh:
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Hurry the f**k up, threads like this are bollocks at the best of times.