GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: Tailpipe on 21 October 2009, 11:36
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I have been amazed by the new Golf, particularly the new GTI. Having done my homework carefully versus other brands (Audi, Ford, BMW and Mercedes-Benz), the Golf makes a compelling case for itself. It is the perfect blend of everyday practicality, economy and performance. The sheer quality of everything makes it desirable in a way no VW has been for some time IMHO. Pound for pound, I cannot think of any other car that offers more bang for your hard-earned bucks. So, I was just about ready to order one, when along comes the Frankfurt Motor Show and the Golf R.
(Excuse me while I pick up my jaw off the ground.)
Stunning in the looks department with 270 bhp and AWD, the Golf R has a subtlety that reminds me of President Roosevelt’s famous quote: “Speak softly but carry a big stickâ€.
If money is no object, does the Golf R make a cast iron case for itself? Maybe, but I’m not yet convinced. The GTI is so rounded in so many ways, I just wonder whether the Golf R compromises some of its best qualities. For example, the GTI offers incredible economy. Even when you’re pushing on, 30 mpg is still quite achievable. But with the R, the extra oomph and weight of the Haldex AWD system is likely to reduce consumption to about 25 mpg in the same conditions.
The suspension settings are also likely to be firmer, so maybe the ride won’t be as compliant or as cosseting on long journeys?
Given that the R like the GTI also uses a 2.0 litre turbo 4-cylinder engine, albeit tuned-up to extract an 60 extra horsepower, I can’t help thinking that its likely high price will erode the sense of value that a GTI provides.
I also keep hearing that the EA888 2.0 litre engine in the GTI (which has steel-linked fan belt versus R’s rubber, variable valve lift for increased efficiency and other worthwhile tweaks) is significantly better than the older EA113 engine used in the R. With greater stresses on the R’s engine, I wonder if it will have an equal longevity too?
Of course, it is hard to know how good (or not so good) the R is until it gets road tested by the auto magazines, but what do the Golf experts here think?
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In my opinion there will be a better Golf out quite soon after the R. So I would sit tight and get the GTi in the mean time.
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In my opinion there will be a better Golf out quite soon after the R. So I would sit tight and get the GTi in the mean time.
Ha ha... there speaks a man who's recently got a Mk6 GTI. :wink:
From someone who doesn't have a Mk6 GTI, wait until demonstrators of the Mk6 R are available. Then decide.
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From someone who doesn't have a Mk6 GTI, wait until demonstrators of the Mk6 R are available. Then decide.
That's the only way.
If they make the chassis as numb as the S3 with the same engine/transmission, the R will be boring to drive.
You'll have much more traction and power (but also more weight and running costs)...but no fun.
If they make it as good as the GTI to drive, but with more traction, and power...it'll be a belter.
Sadly, the only way to know is going to be to wait and drive an R, back to back with a GTI.
Personally, I prefer the interior of the GTI...and the looks.
But would want the power and traction of the R...if it comes with a chassis like the GTI - not the S3!
Only time will tell...
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They need to give it a R32 style setup.. great when you know how to drive it properly, otherwise its a total loon :laugh:
Chassis will be the same as the S3 its just what they do to the setup of the suspension and ride that will be the big factor. S3 was boring, as it was just so efficient without the v6 soundtrack to match. Lets hope the R doesnt go that way... but like I said wait for the anninversary or special edition if you want the best golf out there (or when they fit the K04 to the new engine :lipsrsealed:).
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In my opinion there will be a better Golf out quite soon after the R. So I would sit tight and get the GTi in the mean time.
What do you mean, another Mk 6 Golf variant or the Mk 7? (If you're talking about the Mk 7 GTI, everything i've read tells me that it won't be coming out before 2013, although i'd love to be wrong.)
If another Golf Mk 6 variant is planned, I would be over-the-moon if they put the new 5-cylinder turbo from the TT-RS in it.
In the meantime, it is taking an age for VW UK to provide details on UK spec Rs.
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With greater stresses on the R’s engine, I wonder if it will have an equal longevity too?
Quite the opposite, I think. VW has used the older internals because they are proven and will be quite happy to absorb the extra ponies. See some MKV project threads; Hurdy or RedRobin, for examples of much higher outputs.
Given that the R like the GTI also uses a 2.0 litre turbo 4-cylinder engine...what do the Golf experts here think?
I think a lot of the character of the old R32's will be lost... Every former R32 owner seems to love the extra decibels the V6 chucked out and there's no way a four-pot will be as characterful.
ETTO, but in my own opinion, a MKVI GTi really has all the bases covered and I think it's better looking than the R. Shhh! :evil:
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If you could afford an R and the running costs that goes with it then get it. Its a bit of a no brainer.
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If you could afford an R and the running costs that goes with it then get it. Its a bit of a no brainer.
The man has a point, too :kiss: :laugh:
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If you could afford an R and the running costs that goes with it then get it. Its a bit of a no brainer.
What if you prefer how a GTI looks and drives?
Should you get the R then?
I think the R looks bland next to a GTI, and has a boring interior...so it would have to be one hell of a drive to sway me away from a GTI.
I seriously doubt the running costs will be much different in reality...it's down to which you prefer. Not which you can afford...as I'd wager the majority of people who spec a GTI at £28000ish with options could easily afford an R, if they want one.
Each to their own...but it'll be down to the drive for me...the cost difference is largely irrelevant.
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If you could afford an R and the running costs that goes with it then get it. Its a bit of a no brainer.
What if you prefer how a GTI looks and drives?
Should you get the R then?
I think the R looks bland next to a GTI, and has a boring interior...so it would have to be one hell of a drive to sway me away from a GTI.
I seriously doubt the running costs will be much different in reality...it's down to which you prefer. Not which you can afford...as I'd wager the majority of people who spec a GTI at £28000ish with options could easily afford an R, if they want one.
Each to their own...but it'll be down to the drive for me...the cost difference is largely irrelevant.
But surely as it's faster, it must be better.
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But surely as it's faster, it must be better.
Sure, for some.
Faster than a re-mapped GTI though?
Or for those that want the boot space, and don't want to loose it with a shallow boot and a Haldex unit underneath?
The R maybe isn't for them...
Speed isn't everything...if it were, you'd have bought an Evo!
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But surely as it's faster, it must be better.
Sure, for some.
Faster than a re-mapped GTI though?
Or for those that want the boot space, and don't want to loose it with a shallow boot and a Haldex unit underneath?
The R maybe isn't for them...
Speed isn't everything...if it were, you'd have bought an Evo!
My Irony got lost on you there.
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I heard you Kev...sadly many seem to think faster is better.
I'd take a GTI, re-map it and spend the difference on tyres and petrol. :evil:
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Each to their own...but it'll be down to the drive for me...the cost difference is largely irrelevant.
surely most differences between the two cars are irrelevant to you as you're only going to morrisons in it anyway :laugh:
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The choice imo is down to the individual each person has there list of what they want or need.
Mine made the logical choice the GTI.
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The gti is a great car but for me I'm going for the R
For AWD, more BHP, exclusivity (estimate 500 a yr) :grin:
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If the GTI is anything to go by then the R will be a great car no doubt. But in response to the question of most GTI divers could afford to buy an R if they wanted to - Yes maybe true but where do you draw the line? I know i said when i payed for my GTI that it was about the Max i would spend on an everyday family hatch regardless of how good it is?
If VW release the R at the speculated prices of say 33/34k for a specced up car then i firmly believe they are competing with cars which are in the next class up. As a comparison thats top spec A5 money and not far off S5 money.
Another way to look at it is at that price you can buy two brand new very good hot hatches - VXR, Civic Type R.
I just dont think i could part with that much wedge on a Golf! But i know it will sell loads.
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What is clear to me is that price will be a big factor - despite the OP's condition that money is no object, the reality is that is it a big object!
If the R is priced anything over 30k basic it simply isn't worth the premium over a GTI.
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^^ Agreed.
For me the GTI does almost everything, but its biggest flaw (for me) is its only FWD, so I would always opt for the AWD golf.. the fact that its faster and has a few more toys is a bonus. If im totally honest im not a big fan of the new front, the gti looks better.. but then it used against the old R too.
the AWD does take up alot of boot space but thats why I always opt for 5dr.. so i can drop the seats and still have plenty of easy to get to boot space.
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I heard you Kev...sadly many seem to think faster is better.
I'd take a GTI, re-map it and spend the difference on tyres and petrol. :evil:
Would be my choice too bruv.
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Its all about personal choice...
I'm going to order an R - but then I've been waiting about 5 months already for it.
My ED30 got written off in March, and there was nothing on the market that I fancied. The GTI is nice, but I didn't feel it was a huge step up from the ED30. As soon as I saw the Scirocco R publications I was sold on one of them as I loved the styling.
£500 deposit straight down!
However, I've been a bit wary of the 265bhp in 2wd - and although I think the Scirocco is a stunning looking car, I can't help feeling its a little impractical... and a bit like the Golf's 'girlie' sister!
Then VW release a press release of the Golf R. Looks like the Scirocco, but with 4wd, extra rear seat, and a more practical boot. This covered all of my fears with the Scirocco.
Another £500 deposit down!!
Over the last few weeks I've been mulling over the two - but I think its always been the Golf.
Back to the original question. Why pick it over the GTI?!
Xenons, Parking Assist as standard. Around £1500 saved!
Rumours of ACC as standard too - another £750 saved!
An extra 60bhp
4wd
(personally) nicer front and rear bumpers - not so sure about the grill though!
Proper side skirts
Optional 19" wheels
Blue instrument dials
Rear LED clusters (as standard)
Exclusivity (for a few months or so :tongue: )
Reasons for picking a GTI
£5-6k cheaper as standard
Good fuel economy for a 'hot hatch'
Proven car - great reviews all round
Extra boot space
I have the cash put aside already... but the thought of spending more than £32 on a Golf makes me think twice! I'll be ordering a 3 door, DSG, Metallic Paint with a few other options - and then retrofitting my Sat Nav and Fiscon Bluetooth. If the base cost if £28-28.5k then I'm fine going by the GTI's options prices. If its much more then I may just order a GTI and save some cash.
The seemingly endless wait continues :cry:
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I sent an e- mail to vw to request pricing/brochures....
They will e- mail when they have it but they expect orders to start this month :smiley:
Well fingers crossed
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I sent an e- mail to vw to request pricing/brochures....
I have the brochure here! Its in German though - and contains no prices. Nice pictures though :laugh:
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Spending £30k on a golf is silly
Ill be getting something like a 335i, re-map it and spend the difference on tyres and petrol :evil:
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Spending £30k on a golf is silly
Ill be getting something like a 335i, re-map it and spend the difference on tyres and petrol :evil:
Good for you ... I'll drive past you at full speed in all seasons with my AWD while you slide around trying to keep up :tongue:
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370bhp and RWD :wink:
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I sent an e- mail to vw to request pricing/brochures....
I have the brochure here! Its in German though - and contains no prices. Nice pictures though :laugh:
I want one, I want one... How did you get that?
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I want one, I want one... How did you get that?
Ordered it from ebay.de a month ago today!! I then went to Cyprus for 10 days, and it had arrived by the time I got home.
They were up for grabs at the Frankfurt show. The ebay seller 'brochurehunter' had 10 of them for sale at the time. I assume from his feedback he goes to motor shows and grabs heaps of brochures, and then sells them!
370bhp and RWD :wink:
You won't be going ANYWHERE in the snow then! My 'fiancee' (sorry - just got engaged last week :laugh: ) has a BMW 120 cabro - and she couldn't get it out of the carpark in March for a whole week when it was snowing!!!!
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lol yeah i swept past all the RWD's when it snowed! :laugh:
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For me the GTI does almost everything, but its biggest flaw (for me) is its only FWD, so I would always opt for the AWD golf.. the fact that its faster and has a few more toys is a bonus. If im totally honest im not a big fan of the new front, the gti looks better.. but then it used against the old R too.
GTI with 4WD would make it even more versatile . If anything getting the extra traction in the snow would help.
Having said that I think there is a case to be put forward for the 'character' you get from front wheel drive, spinning the front wheels in 1st off the line (rather than the back ones which chav Corsa driver won't be able to see if you're smoking him), having the handling tendency to understeer which is safer for n00bs like me to handle rather than have the back end swing out if rear wheels were spinning.
Plus I think if you can't handle it, too much power can be a bad thing. For me I think a Golf R would be too big a jump in power. I've only ever been used to driving my little 1.3. Even if I could afford both cars easily, the GTI the power is more manageable and is plenty enough for the extra umph needed to overtake a caravan or build up speed on a sliproad. And there is the case not to spend too much, you don't want to be wasting money just cos you got plenty. The money saved getting the GTI instead of the R you could spend on a nice TV for example.
Just my 2p
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lol you would prefer FWD becuase of its inferiority and think its better for overtaking :laugh:
So when it rains and you need to get past a lorry, you prefer to have fwd which can be dangerous and prevent you from getting round safely like i can
You prefer it because the corsa you are racing will keep up with you if he has better throttle control off the line
Haldex is made to allow a safe amount of understeer
I went from a saxo to a type r and was sensible enough not to crash, i just eased the throttle in and didnt floor it untill i was used to it (you dont have to slam the pedal down and can use as much power as you like you know)
No the GTI power is not more manageable, you need to drive harder to go faster when you need it and it can be dangerous on slippery roads or bumpy ones where the fronts may lose traction
If all you do is overtake caravans you could save even more money for a tv and get yourself a diesel instead!
:rolleyes:
Never heard so much crap, you trying to convince us or you? :laugh:
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:rolleyes:
Never heard so much crap, you trying to convince us or you? :laugh:
Well i never driven a powerful car before but i expect it's going to require more thought than a low powered car as stuff is going to be happening more quickly and require faster reactions if something does go wrong with the handling
of course i'm not crazy enough to go flooring it like mad, it will just take getting used to like anything else in life
i said i was a n00b driver so if you're more experienced in these matters i will take in your feedback
And regards the comment about getting a TV, i was trying to stay on topic and offer some insight into my thoughts between the GTI and the R, not diesel. Obviously if cost was not an issue you could buy both. If cost was not an issue, get a Eurofighter.
sincerest apologies for contributing to the thread.
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Not a problem contributing to the thread, just dont be silly enough to say FWD is better than 4wd or the GTI power is more manageable :grin:
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DDRFan, you say the wrong thing here your f**ked, believe me I know. :grin:
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DDRFan, you say the wrong thing here your f**ked, believe me I know. :grin:
the thing is i don't see where i said "front-wheel drive is better than four-wheel drive" i don't mind getting f**ked but it would help if i know what i said "wrong" :undecided:
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DDRFan, you say the wrong thing here your f**ked, believe me I know. :grin:
the thing is i don't see where i said "front-wheel drive is better than four-wheel drive" i don't mind getting f**ked but it would help if i know what i said "wrong" :undecided:
Nothing said wrong pal. :smiley:
Just showing your slight inexperience at not having driven the AWD golf. the haldex makes the car alot more stable at speed and going around corners. the extra traction AWD offers mean you can literally nail it off the line with very little or no wheels spin, not torque steer or drama.
The GTI is a little more hands on and requires more control, although with the new R this is more likely to be down to how the car is setup rather than the R32's heavier engine. :wink:
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I had no idea that the AWD kit in the R32 takes up boot space. Thanks for sharing that guys. That's a serious problem, because one of the reasons you buy a Golf in the first place is its practicality. If performance compromises that, hmmm...not so good.
Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe the extra power and traction more than makes up for it.
Anyone got a picture of the inside of an R32 boot so we can see how much space is lost?
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I had no idea that the AWD kit in the R32 takes up boot space.
I didn't realise this until a few weeks ago either. My dealer explained it to me, and then took me outside and showed me a MK5 R32 next to a standard MK5 GT. The difference is the floor of the boot has been raised by approx 2 inches. Not really a problem for me, as I just want to be able to fit in my golf clubs! They fitted fine in my ED30 widthwise - so I doubt a 2 inch shallower boot will make any difference.
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Well the GTI's boot came as a bit of a shock to me... alot more useful with just a couple more inches. however if you drop the back seats there is a step up from the boot to the back of the rear seats which is a little bit of a pain, as the R32's boot was a smooth run :undecided:
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The R32 had about 275 litres of boot space vs the GTI's 350. That's over 20% less capacity.
Would presume a similar difference between the R and the GTI.
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Score 1 for the gti. :rolleyes:
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The R32 had about 275 litres of boot space vs the GTI's 350. That's over 20% less capacity.
Would presume a similar difference between the R and the GTI.
Yeah, but do you often use over 80% of the boot volume in a GTI? I'd guess that the 20% immediately below the parcel shelf is usually empty.
On our roads for 95% of the time the GTI will do everything the R will do just as capably. I just want that extra 5% available to me when I need it, so the R gets my vote. Plus, no matter how well they engineer it (Ford Focus RS), front wheel drive is too limited for higher power outputs.
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves. :nerd:
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti.
I'll have to revise my 95% comparison now... :grin:
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves. :nerd:
Are you saying you could go round corners 10% faster in the R32 simply because it is 4WD :huh:(im confused)
There was a good episode of 5th gear a few years back (strainge i know) that showed cornering grip and ability was not down to what wheels the car was driven with but it was about the suspension, tyre contact area and chassis. The only time the driving wheels FWD, RWD, 4WD come into it is been able to put the power down or how it is put down or not and what happens when you over do the power on the limit, understear, over, 4 wheel drift etc.
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves. :nerd:
Are you saying you could go round corners 10% faster in the R32 simply because it is 4WD :huh:(im confused)
There was a good episode of 5th gear a few years back (strainge i know) that showed cornering grip and ability was not down to what wheels the car was driven with but it was about the suspension, tyre contact area and chassis. The only time the driving wheels FWD, RWD, 4WD come into it is been able to put the power down or how it is put down or not and what happens when you over do the power on the limit, understear, over, 4 wheel drift etc.
the R32 has the same tyre contact, and same chassis, but not same suspension and set up iirc. you can get the power down much earlier in corners, hence your speed out of the corners will be greater....
you really should try one.. esp the kick down from start is quite a suprise to many, goes like sh1t off a shovel :grin:
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I have driven BMW for 30 years (partly because my former employment at BMW AG :smug:) until I stumbled over the GTI MkV... :cool:
As a driving experience the GTI is fine but the major drawback is still FWD and I honestly miss RWD !
Everybody knows that RWD is superior and the grip/acceleration out of corners will never be matched by FWD cars. As definite as the laws of gravity, friction, balance/weight etc...
Thats why RWD cars (ie. BMW) always will be penalised by extra weight vs. FWD cars in the regulations of Supertouring (WTCC etc).
Ponder that the Golf GTI was RWD (dream on!)- this would have killed the market for the BMW 1-series for sure !!
I think the argument for Golf R is simply 4WD, it can be a milestone in hot hatch history or a seroius yawn...
Judgement day will be the first test drive... I can´t wait!
/Hakan
Lund, Sweden
PS. Pardon my primitive english
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Who says higher bhp's and FWD don't mix? :wink:
The issue is that with the new Golf R you SHOULD get the best of both worlds if VW do it right. :cool:
The Golf R will be tuneable from day one as all the modding goodies are already out there for the engine.
Would I swap my ED30 for one.......watch this space :rolleyes:
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now a heavily modded R I would love to see!! :evil:
Got your order in yet Hurdy??
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now a heavily modded R I would love to see!! :evil:
Got your order in yet Hurdy??
Not saying! :rolleyes:
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now a heavily modded R I would love to see!! :evil:
Got your order in yet Hurdy??
Not saying! :rolleyes:
Hmmm :grin: :grin: :grin:
what will be happening to the Ed30??? not stripped i hope :cry:
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now a heavily modded R I would love to see!! :evil:
Got your order in yet Hurdy??
Not saying! :rolleyes:
Hmmm :grin: :grin: :grin:
what will be happening to the Ed30??? not stripped i hope :cry:
I'll not crack :laugh:
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves. :nerd:
I don't see how you can corner any faster in an R32 over a Mk5 GTI when the chassis are fairly well matched on sweeping corners, and both offer the same grip.
You may be able to get out of tight low speed corners faster in an R32 due to traction...but on sweeping bends the GTI will be no slower as they have the same mechanical grip...and the Haldex is doing nothing meaningful then.
Much may be down to the driver...but I never found any difference once rolling.
In the case of a Mk6 GTI vs R, the GTI will have the same grip, less weight, but less power (60 BHP) but less losses (30-40 BHP less)...so power ATW difference will be down to 30ish BHP, in a car that's 100Kg less...that lot doesn't equate to a huge gain anywhere when it comes to cornering.
I found a Mk5 GTI perfectly able to stick with a S3 wet or dry in all but standing starts.
An R32 will understeer under power despite Haldex...the GTI will understeer under power regardless.
Why a Mk6 GTI would suddenly drop off a Mk6 R is something I just can't see....especially with XDS reducing the understeer.
Maybe the lighter engine of the R will make it easier to learn than the R32...assuming the R has a chassis as good as the GTIs...the weight vs power ATW difference just doesn't add up to a large gain, regardless of how you dress it up.
Re-map both and the R and it makes sense...300+ BHP and 300 + lb-ft with Haldex, compared to 260 BHP and 280 lb-ft FWD and you will start to eek out a gap - if the R's chassis lets you put the power down early without understeering or triggering the ESP.
Time will tell...
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if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves. :nerd:
I don't see how you can corner any faster in an R32 over a Mk5 GTI when the chassis are fairly well matched on sweeping corners, and both offer the same grip.
You may be able to get out of tight low speed corners faster in an R32 due to traction...but on sweeping bends the GTI will be no slower as they have the same mechanical grip...and the Haldex is doing nothing meaningful then.
Much may be down to the driver...but I never found any difference once rolling.
In the case of a Mk6 GTI vs R, the GTI will have the same grip, less weight, but less power (60 BHP) but less losses (30-40 BHP less)...so power ATW difference will be down to 30ish BHP, in a car that's 100Kg less...that lot doesn't equate to a huge gain anywhere when it comes to cornering.
I found a Mk5 GTI perfectly able to stick with a S3 wet or dry in all but standing starts.
An R32 will understeer under power despite Haldex...the GTI will understeer under power regardless.
Why a Mk6 GTI would suddenly drop off a Mk6 R is something I just can't see....especially with XDS reducing the understeer.
Maybe the lighter engine of the R will make it easier to learn than the R32...assuming the R has a chassis as good as the GTIs...the weight vs power ATW difference just doesn't add up to a large gain, regardless of how you dress it up.
Re-map both and the R and it makes sense...300+ BHP and 300 + lb-ft with Haldex, compared to 260 BHP and 280 lb-ft FWD and you will start to eek out a gap - if the R's chassis lets you put the power down early without understeering or triggering the ESP.
Time will tell...
i think your confusing grip with traction. its the long sweeping bends where the R will be better and alot faster than the GTI. As for the XDS.. it is no way a proper slip diff, just simply a means to stop the car spinning its wheels and wasting power, this does not mean more speed, just more controlled.
The R32 only understeers if you dont know how to drive it, a well pointed out point by many who have driven/owned one.
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i think your confusing grip with traction. its the long sweeping bends where the R will be better and alot faster than the GTI. As for the XDS.. it is no way a proper slip diff, just simply a means to stop the car spinning its wheels and wasting power, this does not mean more speed, just more controlled.
The R32 only understeers if you dont know how to drive it, a well pointed out point by many who have driven/owned one.
Not at all...but I trhink you maybe are!
Cornering speed is dictated by grip - not traction.
Accelleration is dictated by traction.
A Mk5GTI vs R32 or Mk6 GTI vs R have no difference in grip - assuming the chassis are set up fairly equally.
Grip, is phsical...tyre width, suspension angles etc.
Set the suspension up, and it's all down to the tyre footprint...grip is finite and measurable...and fairly equal accross a well set up R32/GTI.
So in my experience...on long sweeping bends where you aren't wheelspinning - or likely to - grip is equal...so cornering speed is equal...to the point centrifugal force & mass overcomes physical grip and the tyres break away.
In this case, the R32 will overcome the tyres break away and break away sooner than the GTI...making it theoretically slower in the corners!
I'm fully aware of what XDS is...it limits wheelspin wasting torque...so brings the gap between FWD and 4WD closer together. It'll never match it...but it will reduce the gap...so as I said, on a tight, wet corner, you will get out of it harder, and quicker in a 4WD car...
But for a sweeping corner where cornering speed is carried - not increased - the GTI is just as fast.
You can learn to drive a GTI/R32 for as long as you like...but you can't overcome physics.
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but thats my point... if you can get your power down sooner in a long sweeping bend the faster you can go. As power goes down in a FWD car the 2 fronts are trying to steer and put power down causing underseer. wheres as in the AWD more power is sent to the rears, pushing the back end round.
Yes the grip is the same but the pushing rather than pulling means the car is more stable and balanced. Also think your overlooking the fact that the R has a different suspension setup to the GTI.
And if you think both cars can take sweeping bends at the same speed, then I suggest looking at levels of g achievable in both cars. I have driven both cars and there is no way a GTI can live with a R32 through the twistys or even round round-abouts. See TG lap times for confirmation. :wink:
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but thats my point... if you can get your power down sooner in a long sweeping bend the faster you can go.
But on a long sweeping bend, it's unlikely you are wheelspinning on the FWD car...so you aren't wasting any torque...so having 4WD is doing nothing for you, except adding weight.
Why do the 4WD VW Cup cars not walk away with 10% faster times, if it were that simple?
FWD is only a hindrance to corner speed once you break the grip of the front tyres - on a FWD GTI that takes some doing on open sweeping bens.
On tight corners, hairpins, poor surfaces or in the wet, then I'd agree fully with you....which makes the R32 the faster car, more of the time...but not a clear cut 5 or 10% faster.
As power goes down in a FWD car the 2 fronts are trying to steer and put power down causing underseer.
True...
Balanced against the weight of the 3.2 V6...there is little in it in reality.
You can turn in later and harder in a GTI in my opinion, with less understeer...but you can come out harder and faster in the R32...
In Mk6 form, if the negatives of the R32 are gone, and it'll turn in like a GTI and power out like an R...then it'll be great.
But then the S3 still understeers...so what gives?
wheres as in the AWD more power is sent to the rears, pushing the back end round.
Or pushing the whole car wide?
A lot is down to driving style...I never got on with the R32 in either Mk4 or Mk5 form...now the boat anchor has gone...I may get on with a Mk6.
But others just can't take to FWD.
Regardless, I don't think it's possible to put a figure like 5% or 10% on the difference...as there are too many variables...and the outcome swings one way then the other readily.
Yes the grip is the same but the pushing rather than pulling means the car is more stable and balanced. Also think your overlooking the fact that the R has a different suspension setup to the GTI.
Had it been Torsen, I'd agree.
But stable and balalnced? I'm not sure I'd agree...i've had Haldex do soe VERY strange things over the years...that mechanical Diffs can't/won't do.
As for the suspension...in the Mk4, comparing IRS to twist beam gave a huge gain...
In the Mk5 it did not...as the FWD Mk5s have IRS which transformed them.
In the Mk6...time will tell...but I honestly can't see there being a quantum leap.
And if you think both cars can take sweeping bends at the same speed, then I suggest looking at levels of g achievable in both cars. I have driven both cars and there is no way a GTI can live with a R32 through the twistys or even round round-abouts. See TG lap times for confirmation. :wink:
That's your view...
And as I said above, the R(32) has an advantage more often...but it's not clear cut...and many times I've had a FWD GTI stuck to my S3 that I couldn't shake off...in the same way I've out cornered many 4WD cars (TTs, S3s, R32s) in my FWD Golf.
You cannot make a blanket statement...there are too many variables.
4WD makes for a quicker car, more of the time.
But that's not a given.
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Looks like we will have to agree to disagree but imo the R32 is (and R will be) much quicker around a track where all variables are tested. i have yet to meet a std GTI, ST, Megane 225, Cupra that could keep up with me in my old car round a few simple round abouts.
For me its quite clear that simply looking at the stats the R will be a much faster than the GTI in any conditions despite the weight of AWD. :smiley:
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Looks like we will have to agree to disagree but imo the R32 is (and R will be) much quicker around a track where all variables are tested. i have yet to meet a std GTI, ST, Megane 225, Cupra that could keep up with me in my old car round a few simple round abouts.
We'll leave it at that regarding the R32.
The Mk6 R could be the car the R should have been for the last 2 generations...time will tell.
For me its quite clear that simply looking at the stats the R will be a much faster than the GTI in any conditions despite the weight of AWD. :smiley:
We'll see...
Faster?, yes.
Much faster?
Depends on your definition of 'much'.
In 6 months time there will be threads on here with R owners moaning and whinging that thay weren't able to leave a GTI behind...just you wait and see.
Added weight and much higher losses make a fair old difference.
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In 6 months time there will be threads on here with R owners moaning and whinging that thay weren't able to leave a GTI behind...just you wait and see.
Added weight and much higher losses make a fair old difference.
Weight will only be about 50kg difference... 60bhp more and AWD. Not to mention a 0-60 5.5sec compared to 7.1 sec :shocked:
Give me the Golf R and i will leave any GTI well behind straight or twistys anyday of the week :wink:
Anyone wanting the quickest and most tunable Golf yet.... the Golf R is the one to go for imo.
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Weight will only be about 50kg difference... 60bhp more and AWD. Not to mention a 0-60 5.5sec compared to 7.1 sec :shocked:
50 Kg? We'll see...I'd bank on nearer 100 Kg.
60 BHP...I think not. 50 and a bit maybe...at the crank, according to VWs figures. (210 PS vs 265 PS)
You do know Haldex has losses?...around 80 BHP total on a TT/S3/R32...compared to 50 for a FWD...so that's a grand total of 20...being generous, 25 BHP more...with nearly 100 Kg more to lug about.
Your 0-60 argument doesn't need explained...nobody has argued that off the line, a 4WD car won't be considerably faster under most conditions...but once out of 2nd - at about 60 MPH, it becomes irrelevant...and the extra drag and weight counts.
How many times have you seen Mk5 GTIs turn in slower 0-60 times but faster 1/4 mile times? Power to weight counts once rolling...and a standard Mk6 GTI won't be too far off a Mk6 R once you get it into the top of 2nd/3rd.
Seriously, in skilled hands, the GTI isn't far behind out of the box. Nobody is saying it's not slower...but it sure as hell doubt it's 10% slower once you get off the line...which means in normal driving, it'll be pretty close....as it is in the Mk5.
Give me the Golf R and i will leave any GTI well behind straight or twistys anyday of the week :wink:
Catch you at GTI International one year...and we'll see!
If you can't take 10% of time off me, your argument has failed and you buy the beers.
Just don't brake too hard...ot I'll hit the back of you...I'll be that close! :grin:
Anyone wanting the quickest and most tunable Golf yet.... the Golf R is the one to go for imo.
No argument there...
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no probs S3 :wink:
i hope im wrong as no doubt I will still be running my mapped GTI :grin:
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LOL
On paper the golf R looks like it will be faster in a straight line or otherwise !
And most definately more capable in adverse road conditions... So faster all year round....
As to how much faster we'll have to wait and see, however, IMHO 10% sounds a conservative estimate...
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I know it's only Top Gear figures but the Mk5 R32 was over 3 seconds faster than the Mk5 GTI, despite the extra weight of the engine and 4WD:
GTI 1:33.7s
R32 1:30.4s
However, that's only 2.5% faster :wink:
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I know it's only Top Gear figures but the Mk5 R32 was over 3 seconds faster than the Mk5 GTI, despite the extra weight of the engine and 4WD:
GTI 1:33.7s
R32 1:30.4s
However, that's only 2.5% faster :wink:
but now give the R an extra 20bhp advantage and no heavy V6 and the writing is on the wall I think!! My 10% reference was actually only to cornering speed... but its a good marker anyway I would say :smiley:
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but now give the R an extra 20bhp advantage and no heavy V6 and the writing is on the wall I think!! My 10% reference was actually only to cornering speed... but its a good marker anyway I would say :smiley:
I would like to see values put on the g forces each car is capable of pulling, as I'll maintain an R isn't capable of cornering any faster than a GTI.
Getting out faster due to better traction...I'd agree.
And on a track like Top Gear's, from a standing start, I could see an obvious advantage...but that's never been in doubt.
But actual mid corner speeds - which was what was supposed to be 10% faster - I doubt it.
Maybe we will get some better data nearer the time...who knows?
But taking those times, and equating them to your average Joe on the public road...I still maintain that a well driven GTI will keep up...and certainly won't be left behind by any margin worth willy-waving over.
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i hope im wrong as no doubt I will still be running my mapped GTI :grin:
Well to even things up...I'll take my Mk3 then. :tongue:
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i hope im wrong as no doubt I will still be running my mapped GTI :grin:
Well to even things up...I'll take my Mk3 then. :tongue:
I'll bring along my shed.. should be a close call :laugh: :tongue:
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50 Kg? We'll see...I'd bank on nearer 100 Kg.
Here are both kerb weights taken from volkswagen.de
They are based on a DSG model before any options added - so I'm assuming this is 3 door?
Golf R: Gewichte Leergewicht 1.541 kg
Golf GTI: Gewichte Leergewicht 1.414 kg
127 is the difference!
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Its going to be interesting to see how the Scirroco R performs against the Golf R and the GTI. VW just need to hurry up and get the both of them out to the press to review asap.
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Here are both kerb weights taken from volkswagen.de
They are based on a DSG model before any options added - so I'm assuming this is 3 door?
Golf R: Gewichte Leergewicht 1.541 kg
Golf GTI: Gewichte Leergewicht 1.414 kg
127 is the difference!
Well, well...
With around 25 BHP more actually at the wheels under full load, and around 127 Kg more weight...anyone want to do the maths on power/weight? :wink:
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LOL - well I suspect that the formula will be similar to the R32 vs GTI in mkv days. Ie R32 has more power but the performance will be similar to the GTI. No apparant reason why VW should change this situation.
Still looking forward to seeing the uk prices for an R. For me that will seal it on whether the R is worth it over the GTI.
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Something i have just read i had forgoton about and from reading elsewere most dealers forget about or don't know is that the haldex oil needs changing at 20k with the oil & filter needing to be changed at 40k worth remembering if you want to look after your lovley new R when you get it.
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I guess it's all down to taste and if you're happy with the cost of the Golf R.
For me I'm not fussed on the Golf R look. I feel the current GTI mk6 looks way better Front on.
When the Golf R was uncovered a few weeks back thought boo looks bland (sorry just my thoughts), then when my dealer advised Golf R demo car wouldn't be avalible until Dec \Jan for a test drive, I opted for the GTI. Now I've seen the price glad I did (just feel ripped out if I'd got the Golf R, but... if they'd dropped in the v6 from the G36, then I'd have gone for an R.
I wouldn't balk if I won a Golf R in some competion, but I'd probably sell it, stick with the GTI and then spend the cash on an Mk5 R32 and get it pimped up as a track day car (also looks and sounds way better too).
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LOL - well I suspect that the formula will be similar to the R32 vs GTI in mkv days. Ie R32 has more power but the performance will be similar to the GTI. No apparant reason why VW should change this situation.
I stand corrected. The R is anything up to 1.4 secs faster to 60 than the GTI. The benefit of more bhp and greater traction from 4WD. That does go some way to justifying the cost of it, but only some way. e.g. I've not seen any other stats though as 0-60 is a crude measure.
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LOL - well I suspect that the formula will be similar to the R32 vs GTI in mkv days. Ie R32 has more power but the performance will be similar to the GTI. No apparant reason why VW should change this situation.
I stand corrected. The R is anything up to 1.4 secs faster to 60 than the GTI. The benefit of more bhp and greater traction from 4WD. That does go some way to justifying the cost of it, but only some way. e.g. I've not seen any other stats though as 0-60 is a crude measure.
they are fairly evenly matched from 50-120. After that the R will pull away. I had mine upto 155 and simply did not want to stop... in fact it just seemed like it was getting going :shocked:
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As the other thread is locked im guessing by the original poster.
For me the Golf R will have to be a hell of a lot better to drive than the S3 to justify the larger price (~£4K(can get S3s new for £25K), the R's much lower equipment spec and lower badge than the S3, and i just cannot see it from previous drives of haldex equipped cars for it to be that much different. I wait and see but i think people who are ordering before even trying it are simply barmy.
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I was in Audi today between my trips to VW and specced up an S3 - with heaps of toys... and they gave me NINE - yes, NINE percent discount without me even trying!!!!
Still ordered the Golf R though :laugh:
£1000 deposit down, and unlikely to be seen before March 2010!
Its gonna be a LONG wait!
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SORRY I did not realise it was locked .... It's unlocked again
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So now we all know the prices of the R versus the GTI, who's going for an R and who's going for a GTI? :huh:
Given that VW are only allocating 500 Rs to the UK, it may just be that all 500 UK owners are already active GolfGTI forum members. :grin:
As for me, R all the way, baby:
- 5-door
- DSG
- Rising blue or Black
- ACC
- 19" Talladega wheels
- Leather on standard sports seats
- Sun roof
- SatNav
- Winter pack
- Luxury pack
- Cruise control
- Rear reversing camera
- Front & rear parking sensors
:cool:
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What's wrong with a normal GTI?
This R special is a lot of money for a heavier car.
Give me a normal GTI with no options (except (for me) DSG) any day.
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What's wrong with a normal GTI?
This R special is a lot of money for a heavier car.
Give me a normal GTI with no options (except (for me) DSG) any day.
each to their own ........
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It's not a hard choice at all, you either can or cant afford them.
GTI all the way for me though, The R is just way too expensive and more expensive to run.
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I think the GTI is an exceptionally well balanced and all-round capable car. So I'm buying the R.
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I think the GTI is an exceptionally well balanced and all-round capable car. So I'm buying the R.
I bet you stood in front of a mirror after saying that thinking you were well cool ?
R is good, but its still just a Golf, and still just a shopping car. Don't forget that.
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I bet you stood in front of a mirror after saying that thinking you were well cool ?
I was sitting down, but yeah. :laugh:
R is good, but its still just a Golf, and still just a shopping car. Don't forget that.
Oh how could you say that Kev. You know the Golf is the best car ever built bar none :wink: Plus our local Waitrose has a really slippery exit, so I need the 4WD to get out into traffic safely.
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I bet you stood in front of a mirror after saying that thinking you were well cool ?
I was sitting down, but yeah. :laugh:
R is good, but its still just a Golf, and still just a shopping car. Don't forget that.
Oh how could you say that Kev. You know the Golf is the best car ever built bar none :wink: Plus our local Waitrose has a really slippery exit, so I need the 4WD to get out into traffic safely.
Unfortunately I've been brainwashed mate. :grin: