Author Topic: What now for the R32.....  (Read 19267 times)

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #50 on: 10 October 2008, 21:39 »
Wow T_T, I've never known someone spew so much bollux in all my life. :rolleyes:

Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline davefish

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #51 on: 10 October 2008, 22:51 »
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales… As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted... I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all. I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode. I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #52 on: 10 October 2008, 23:31 »
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales…

Please quote me correctly.  I merely ASKED who had provided such info, to your very specific claim of 70% going to the rear.

And if you did feel that I made a "personal attack", then I apologise, as it wasn't meant to be "personal" at all.  :smiley:

As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted...

And I am speaking as a highly qualifed Automobile Engineering Technician, who fully understands the detailed operation of transmissions, and particularly four wheel drive transmissions, and has spent many, many years working on such systems.

And I add to that my own personal experiences of driving various Haldex cars - albeit with just the "standard" Haldex software in the controller.  :rolleyes:

I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all.

I don't question that at all, and I fully understand and agree with you.  And it is simply down to weght transfer during acceleration which creates such an effect.

I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode.

But I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.  Please tell me how the Haldex unit is able to disengage the drive to the front axle?  It can NOT do so, because the front axle is permanently driven, irrespective of what the Haldex is doing.  The Haldex is simply a clutch, and not a differential, and so it can NOT dynamically apportion torque from one axle to another.  At best, irrespective of weather the Haldex is standard or "race", the Haldex unit simply locks its clutch at a clamping force of 100% - and this simply locks the rear axle to the front - meaning an exact 50:50 bias.

With your "Race" mode, what is actually happening, is that the Haldex is locking its clutch before you move off, thereby giving and exact 50:50 bias, but, because of the weight transfer effectively being pushed to the rear of the car during acceleration, it then "feels" like the fronts are doing very little, and the rears feel as though they are doing the major share of the traction.  The actual apportioning of drive though can be no more than 50% to the rear axle.

I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Firstly, no one is doubting your "experiences".  However, what you "feel" through the seat of your pants is not the same as the fundamental priciples of Automobile Engineering.  :smiley:

Furthermore, Haldex Traction have repeatedly been found to "fudge" their figures, and squew their claims.  Haldex make incorrect claims by ignoring the "industry standard" of describing vehicle dynamics.  Google "Vehicle Dynamics International", blag yourself some free tickets, and then speak to some of THE most eminent professionals of the motor industry - and not one will back up Haldex Tractions' methods of describing the distribution of drive in their four wheel drive systems (or the way Haldex "discredit" 4wd systems with an ATB centre differential).

Kind regards.  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline illyun

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #53 on: 11 October 2008, 00:30 »
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales…

Please quote me correctly.  I merely ASKED who had provided such info, to your very specific claim of 70% going to the rear.

And if you did feel that I made a "personal attack", then I apologise, as it wasn't meant to be "personal" at all.  :smiley:

As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted...

And I am speaking as a highly qualifed Automobile Engineering Technician, who fully understands the detailed operation of transmissions, and particularly four wheel drive transmissions, and has spent many, many years working on such systems.

And I add to that my own personal experiences of driving various Haldex cars - albeit with just the "standard" Haldex software in the controller.  :rolleyes:

I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all.

I don't question that at all, and I fully understand and agree with you.  And it is simply down to weght transfer during acceleration which creates such an effect.

I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode.

But I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.  Please tell me how the Haldex unit is able to disengage the drive to the front axle?  It can NOT do so, because the front axle is permanently driven, irrespective of what the Haldex is doing.  The Haldex is simply a clutch, and not a differential, and so it can NOT dynamically apportion torque from one axle to another.  At best, irrespective of weather the Haldex is standard or "race", the Haldex unit simply locks its clutch at a clamping force of 100% - and this simply locks the rear axle to the front - meaning an exact 50:50 bias.

With your "Race" mode, what is actually happening, is that the Haldex is locking its clutch before you move off, thereby giving and exact 50:50 bias, but, because of the weight transfer effectively being pushed to the rear of the car during acceleration, it then "feels" like the fronts are doing very little, and the rears feel as though they are doing the major share of the traction.  The actual apportioning of drive though can be no more than 50% to the rear axle.

I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Firstly, no one is doubting your "experiences".  However, what you "feel" through the seat of your pants is not the same as the fundamental priciples of Automobile Engineering.  :smiley:

Furthermore, Haldex Traction have repeatedly been found to "fudge" their figures, and squew their claims.  Haldex make incorrect claims by ignoring the "industry standard" of describing vehicle dynamics.  Google "Vehicle Dynamics International", blag yourself some free tickets, and then speak to some of THE most eminent professionals of the motor industry - and not one will back up Haldex Tractions' methods of describing the distribution of drive in their four wheel drive systems (or the way Haldex "discredit" 4wd systems with an ATB centre differential).

Kind regards.  :smiley:

Phew...  :shocked: I feel dizzy after reading all that TT.  All I know is that I miss the R32 I had and really want another.. its just this bl00dy credit crunch thats making my job feel very unsecure at present that is stopping me.. Otherwise, I'd be a greedy bas78rd and have two Mk5's parked on my drive - Ed30 and R32.  :laugh: :laugh:
Mk1 GTI Campaign, Mk5 GTI Edition 30, Mk6 GTI (Coming Soon...)

Offline ukdub

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #54 on: 11 October 2008, 01:07 »
Totally off topic, but I have read today the the new R32 replacement is to be called the R42.  Guess it stands for 4wd(not really) and 2 litre engine.  Will miss the VR6 unit though, its a shame the tree huggers have got their way and killed off a great engine.  When will people realise that the car isn't a problem in the so called globle warming panic.
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Offline Saint Steve

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #55 on: 11 October 2008, 07:23 »
Tis nice to see petrol prices heading south again  :smiley:


Offline carl1

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #56 on: 11 October 2008, 08:16 »
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin...

I am sorry, but that just aint true.  The R32 does understeer at low speeds, and no matter what you do with the throttle you can not dial out this.  At high speeds, the R32 is very "twitchy" on the limit.  The GTI is a much more neutral handling car.
So are you saying the gti is a better handling car than the r32 :huh:

Yup, whenever I drive them back to back, the GTI is far better in the handling department.  This has also been repeatedly confirmed by various mags and TV progs.
I beg to differ,the gti may be more lighter and nimble but that does not mean it  handles better .(down to personal taste)so why would a multi million pound company use haldex.Why didn't they make it 2wd like the eos 3.2 . Maybe these German engineers don't no that much about cars
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Offline The Doc

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #57 on: 11 October 2008, 08:58 »
illyun - hello  :wink:

R42 - 4.2 litre V8 would be nice lol

I've heard its a 2.5 5cyl turbo with 350 bhp?

My 2p on the GTI V's GTI handling.

GTI - great in the dry but when the going gets tough ie very twisty and bumpy I always found a front wheel lifting and causing me to loose grip therefore speed.

R32 - great in the wet good when it gets tough, but when it gets really tough you can feel that engine weight and it wants to drag you into a field, sideways while you scream.

This is a bit like hi-fi - its all in the eye of the beholder - the GTI is more balanced but I think the R32 handles better - please bear in mind I tend to drive cars like their stolen.
« Last Edit: 11 October 2008, 09:10 by The Doc »

Offline R32UK

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #58 on: 11 October 2008, 10:27 »
Have to join the party here and say T_T... I think you are wrong when you say the Gti is a better handling car than the R32. More fun?? That I could agree with.. but better handling???

Think these magazines and reviews you are refering to are simply stating that the Gti is a better value package... trust me I have seen every review of the Gti and R32 going and not one states that the Gti is a better handling car! I have seen Plato and Tiff say that the R32 is a brilliant handling car and does everything right. JC also raves on about it. The Stig loved it..

but now T_T says its not as good as the GTi???? Im going to go with the experts on this one T_T!! And more importantly... my own experience :grin:

2WD better than 4WD??? I cannot see how a car powered by 2wheels rather than 4wheels is going to be better handling. We know you have this hang up about the haldex.. but seriously we are not comparing to Audi here.

Offline ukdub

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Re: What now for the R32.....
« Reply #59 on: 11 October 2008, 10:35 »
4wd is not going to make a car handle better.  4wd is for better traction that is all. 
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