Author Topic: Mk VI  (Read 26611 times)

Offline chrissyr32

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #110 on: 10 August 2008, 18:15 »
Cant see 211 hp.It.l surely have at least 230 the standard GTI that is.The GTI-R is a very intresting deal :cool: 265 S3 challenger, bring it on,i gotta get mysel one of them.

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #111 on: 10 August 2008, 18:23 »
Cant see 211 hp.It.l surely have at least 230 the standard GTI that is.The GTI-R is a very intresting deal :cool: 265 S3 challenger, bring it on,i gotta get mysel one of them.

....Different engine, mate - Read the thread.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #112 on: 11 August 2008, 11:31 »
so if it is only 211hp on the std GTi, sure then the current ed30 lump wouldnt be used untill maybe the GTi-R with 265 and haldex combination.

But they arn't going to be using any variant of the current 2.0TFSI engine in the Mk6.  It is the new chain-driven cam lump under the bonnet.  The reason for this is that the current lump is a bit of a barsteward to work on, particularly for things like cam belts, water pumps and turbos/exhaust manifolds.  The new lump is meant to ease access for these specific areas.

I cant see this as the reason for them changing an engine. Surely VW are not concerned with making a mechanics work a little easier.

Your kidding surely? Lower running and maintenance costs = happier customers. Me included!  :wink:

better economy is a valid reason.. but making certain parts of the engine easier to reach is surely not. Make the thing properly in the first instance, then you dont need to get to these bit = happy customers

So you don't think that the benefits from changing over from a consumable rubber timing belt, to a maintenance free "fitted for life" timing chain is important for the fleet market?

Nor do you think that changing from a wide, space consuming timing belt, to a narrow space-saving timing chain is not important for the vehicle designers?  Without changing the V8 from belts to chains, the current RS4 would not exist.  And without utilising the same said timing chain technology, it is doubtful that the current S6 and RS6 would exist either!

I'm sorry, but I think you are being very narrow-minded on this particular issue!  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline 08micsta

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #113 on: 11 August 2008, 14:04 »
Not all of us here are independent vehicle technicians that drive RS4's...

Play nicely.  :angry:


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Offline topher

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #114 on: 11 August 2008, 14:08 »
a maintenance free "fitted for life" timing chain

:grin: watch your tongue doesn't poke a hole in the side of your cheek with that one!

Offline R32UK

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #115 on: 11 August 2008, 16:49 »
Im not in denial about it happening.. However if you were to say it increases performance/economy/cost of manufacture or something along those lines then I would agree. But all your telling me is that they are changing it so its easier to work on. Surely if its going to have "fitted for life timing chain" then why would they need to make this part of the engine easier to access??


As for a timing belt benifiting the fleet market.. From what I know about the fleet market, not many of them are around for long enough to warrant an new timing belt.

I am not saying I know much on the subject.. in fact quite the opposite. But I know my fair share about business, if I was the CEO of VW and my head engine development team told me the reason to introduce a new engine was because the current one is slightly difficult to work on certain areas...  then Im sure you know where I would tell you to go! :drool: Give me any of the reasons above... and I will listen, but not to make a mechanic or tech's life a little easier.

In addition to which I would they would be cutting off another of the reoccuring revenue streams of their many dealerships. Just my view on things as head of VW :nerd: :smiley:

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #116 on: 11 August 2008, 18:04 »
a maintenance free "fitted for life" timing chain

:grin: watch your tongue doesn't poke a hole in the side of your cheek with that one!

LOL, yes, it's not unknown for chains to let go - but they usually give you pleanty of warning!  :tongue:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #117 on: 11 August 2008, 19:00 »
Im not in denial about it happening.. However if you were to say it increases performance/economy/cost of manufacture or something along those lines then I would agree. But all your telling me is that they are changing it so its easier to work on. Surely if its going to have "fitted for life timing chain" then why would they need to make this part of the engine easier to access??

OK, look at it another way.  On the current Mk5 GTI engine, the timing belt is a real ba$tard to change, because the position of the non-removable top engine mount.  Now, someone down the line of said GTI ownership WILL have to pay for the belt to be changed.  Maybe not the first owner, maybe not a fleet owner - someone, somewhere down the line will.  Now, easy jobs can be done quicky, attracting cheap labour costs - whereas difficult jobs invariably take longer, hence greater labour costs.  Now, those "potential", or future costs will have a "reverse" effect, by filtering upwards (for want of a better phrase) and denting trade-in or 2nd hand values.  People will naturally make price adjustments if they know about an upcomming high maintenance item.  It is this same issue which plagues V6 Vectra prices!

Now, to combat the timing belt maintenance costs issue, VW decide to get rid of.  Fine, but they need another way of driving the cams - gears??  Maybe, but a bit overkill on a straight four - chains??  Yup, they work fine on the latest V8 and V10, and the Japs have been using chains for years on their high revving bikes (my CBR6 red lines at 14,000 rpm, and still sounds sweet).  As an added bonus of using chains, they are both physically smaller (which pleases car designers, who are always thankful of having more space to play with), and are (generally) maintenance free, which keeps users happy.

As for a timing belt benifiting the fleet market.. From what I know about the fleet market, not many of them are around for long enough to warrant an new timing belt.

Fairy-nuff.  Many fleets get rid of just before any "biggie" services are due, but this still has a knock-on effect at denting residuals.

And you still have to keep private buyers happy!  :tongue:

I am not saying I know much on the subject.. in fact quite the opposite. But I know my fair share about business, if I was the CEO of VW and my head engine development team told me the reason to introduce a new engine was because the current one is slightly difficult to work on certain areas...  then Im sure you know where I would tell you to go! :drool: Give me any of the reasons above... and I will listen, but not to make a mechanic or tech's life a little easier.

OK, yup.  In it's most simplistic way, it would seem daft to develop a "new" engine.  But in reality, it is probably the same block but a different head.  Secondly, the VW Group, like most automotive companies, are a company which likes to showcase its new technologies - look at the Veyron, or R8, or Bentley Continental GT, or the Lambo Revention.  And finally, VW want to "please" their "customers" - VW wont want owners b!tching away because of nightmare maintenance issues - and cam-belt changes have been a general bug-bear for some time now.

In addition to which I would they would be cutting off another of the reoccuring revenue streams of their many dealerships. Just my view on things as head of VW :nerd: :smiley:

Erm, that is called "evolution".  :wink:

Just because you no longer need a wheelwright to "tune" the spokes on your wire wheels - hasn't made car companies and stealerships go out of business.  Same goes for changing contact breaker points, condensors and HT leads, or cleaning float chambers on carbs, or oiling SU dashpots.

At the end of the day, stealerships will ALWAYS find new ways of making money.  To take VW as a specific example, they "champion" this "LongLife" servcing regime, on the promise that your car won't need servicing for 2 years or 20k miles, yet every time you go into the stealerships, they are either pushing "specials" such as "winter service", "holiday service", "air con service", etc, etc.  And no matter how good we'd like to think our beloved, high quality german engineered cars are, they always do well with warranty work.  Owners still need spares, be they for routine maintenance, a bottle of top-up oil, some mudflaps, headlamp beam benders, a new mobile fone cradle, etc.  And finally, accidents still do happen.  Accident damage repairs are an absolute huge area in the motor trade, and even if the main stealer doesn't actually get the physical repair job (instead going to an insurance "select repairer" type), the main stealer will still get to supply all the body panels, broken headlamps, radiator grilles, etc - because UK auto insurance states that only genuine OEM parts are used, even if it is repaired in say the Nationwide body centre.

HTH,  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #118 on: 11 August 2008, 19:29 »
Accident damage repairs are an absolute huge area in the motor trade, and even if the main stealer doesn't actually get the physical repair job (instead going to an insurance "select repairer" type), the main stealer will still get to supply all the body panels, broken headlamps, radiator grilles, etc - because UK auto insurance states that only genuine OEM parts are used, even if it is repaired in say the Nationwide body centre.

....Hence why my VW dealership has a large Accident Repair Centre literally next door as an affiliated but autonomous company. Fortunately I'm well in with both! :smiley:
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Offline neg

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Re: Mk VI
« Reply #119 on: 11 August 2008, 19:32 »
Any idea how much they a new cam belt costs on the GTI ?  A little OT I know but got me wondering...