Author Topic: Why Don't You Mod?....  (Read 21736 times)

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #40 on: 25 August 2007, 22:01 »
OK, I'll chip into this one too!

Firstly, referring only to RedRobin's GTI, I had a look at it at Inters, on the Sunday (when it was dry).  I personally don't think any of the major mods were at all chavy, and Robin would be the last person on the planet who you would descrive as a "chav" !!!  I agree with other comments on the stickers - not really my taste.  The carbon bits, I thought were lush - but it is not something I would personally consider, because I like my cars to have the "Q" car look.

Regarding the "mechanicals" on RRs car; the suspension, whilst I personaly feel no need to upgrade the springs and dampers, I fully support RRs stance that his kit is more "quality", and better engineered, compared to the "compromise" which all production cars are.  However, I emphatically agree with better anti-roll bars.  These are a component which can dramatically improve handling, without affecting the quality of the ride - so these are a big yesssssss.

The brakes - even on my standard GTI, I personally find them a little "weak", and lacking in feel.  I agree that improvements to the brakes on a "tuned" car are a very wise option.  Robin has taken quite an extreme choice, with AP racing discs, calipers, and braided hoses.  Other less extreme alternatives to consider would be simply replacing the pads for a "fast road" type, (keeping the existing discs, calipers, etc) which provide greater resistance to fade.  Or you could change all the flexy rubber brake hoses for braided steel items, which would give a noticeable improvement in "pedal feel" (but don't improve the overall efficiency).  Another alternative would be to fit the slightly larger R32 brakes, keeping the OEM look.  One thing I would categorically avoid, though, is any kind of "grooved" discs, as these provide no improvement in braking efficiency (dispite what the Max muppets magazines will try to tell you).  If I were to change the OEM discs, but keeping the same size, then cross drilled discs would be the only consideration.

The quad exhaust, again personally not my thing, but they do look quality.  However, the "aftermarket" exhausts can have a "bad name", and all seem to get tarnished with the same brush.  However, Milltek are very, very different.  Milltek exhausts are undoubtedly regarded as the leader in exhausts.  Their build quality is truely superb, and the fit, finish and function are unparalled.  Oh, the sound quality - Milltek produce a very "mature" and unoffensive sound.  Yes, they are louder than standard zorsts, but they are NOT "in your face", or obtrusive.  To the vast majority of other road users, they probably wouldn't notice any change from standard.

Remaps, again, I fully agree with RR.  I'm sure everyone on this forum knows my postition on using only dedicated VAG chip tuners.


Right, that is my comments on RRs car - now for my own take, on my own cars.

I would only personally modify a car if it gave a quantifiable improvement over the standard set-up.  I personally would not consider any mods to the bodywork (splitters, spoilers, carbon bits, etc), because I'm at that age where I prefer the "Q" car look.

The warranty issue is another area of concern to me, so I would avoid anything which could jeopardise the warranty.  However, there does seem to be certain mods you can carry out, which have no effect on warranty, and the obvious is a cat-back Milltek exhaust.  Milltek have been around for such a long time, they really are very well known throughout the Volkswagen Audi Group, and can be trusted not to jeopardise the warranty.  I certainly wouldn't be as confident with a warranty claim if I had a Janspeed, or Pico, or other such chav-scum pipe.  I also wouldn't be confident with any Superchips remap, and certainly not any of the "custom code" type remaps.  It is proven, however, that Revo are a company which (some) stealers will still allow the warranty, and indeed, some stealers are actual Revo installers!

If we now look at my current and recent VAG fleet, my RS4 will probably get a Milltek - that's enough!  Bollox - I lie - I will ditch the fcuking lethal Pirelli P-Zero Rossos, and get some boots which actually grip - you don't need to ask what!  :wink:

My previous S4, I was desparately after improvements to the brakes, but sadly, most of the "info" came from the other side of the pond.  There was no definative proof of any quantifiable improvements in braking efficiency.  I was going to get the Milltek, but ordered my new RS4, so that was pointless.  I changed the standard H7 main beams for some Philips Vision Plus (it had Xenons, but they were the old skool dip-only).  I also got some silver OEM Hella rear light clusters, because they looked much better than the "red" clusters on my silver car.  I wasn't after more power, so a remap, or any kind of induction kit or revised air filter was not even considered.

Now to the Golf (SWMBOs).  I will put a Milltek on it, but it will be the traditional twin outlet, rather than the quad outlet.  A "quality" remap will be on the cards too, but after the warranty has expired.  I would be very interested in uprated anti-roll bars, and would strongly consider the R32 brakes, with braided hoses.

My two wheeled transport is rather different though.  I have done quite a few mods to both my mountain bike, and my CBR600 !!!  :wink:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #41 on: 25 August 2007, 22:26 »
Cheers, TT :smiley:

Agreed about my brakes being slightly extreme but I helped AP and they made me a generous offer - It would have been rude to have said no. Superb brakes and have kept me safe on several occasions when some other muppet has done something stupid which I have needed to quickly avoid. Also extremely reliable for the pure fun of late braking into roundabouts. Reliable and smooth at high 130 mph autobahn speeds too.
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Offline illyun

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #42 on: 26 August 2007, 09:47 »
methinks this thread should be made a sticky just for TT's excellent post... I've copied and pasted it for myself  :wink:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #43 on: 26 August 2007, 10:35 »
One thing I would categorically avoid, though, is any kind of "grooved" discs, as these provide no improvement in braking efficiency (dispite what the Max muppets magazines will try to tell you).

....Reading this again I'm not sure about your comment on grooved discs, TT. I question it only because I have total faith in AP Racing's products - I know how extremely rigorously they are tested both on the bench 24/7 and in the field before being released. AP are part of Brembo and design and produce brakes and clutches for nearly all the major F1 teams, NASCAR, etc etc. The particular disc (part of a Big Brake kit put together specifically for the Mk5 GTI - hence my involvement) is well tested. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to say that TT is totally wrong about grooved discs.



The other important factor is to match a brake pad as being appropriate to the disc material - It isn't just a matter of changing pads to something with a good reputation, it should be known to be suitable for your car's disc. Also type of brake fluid is a contributing factor to good brakes. AP offer a complete kit.
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Offline SteveS

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #44 on: 26 August 2007, 10:38 »
I think the modding i will do will be slight. insurance being one of the issues why.. but i will be considering a exhaust (miltek as u all say there the best) and forge DV. i MAY change the rims at some point but notreally thought the need yet. other than that i dont intend of changing anything.
SteveS

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #45 on: 26 August 2007, 15:11 »
methinks this thread should be made a sticky just for TT's excellent post...

 :smiley:  :smiley:

I've copied and pasted it for myself  :wink:

<cough> as long as there is no plagiary <cough>  :wink:  :wink:  :grin:  :grin:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #46 on: 26 August 2007, 16:11 »
....Reading this again I'm not sure about your comment on grooved discs, TT.

OK, thought provoking discussion is very good!  :smiley:

I question it only because I have total faith in AP Racing's products - I know how extremely rigorously they are tested both on the bench 24/7 and in the field before being released.

I fully agree with that.

AP are part of Brembo and design and produce brakes and clutches for nearly all the major F1 teams, NASCAR, etc etc.

Ohhh - someone's been telling you porkies!

Whilst both AP Racing, and Brembo design and develop brakes and clutches for all aspects of the motorsport arena, that is where the similarity ends.  AP Racing and Brembo are NOT connected in any ownership way at all.

AP Racing are a very well established high performance division of AP automotive products, who are based in Coventry.  AP have a considerable span of history.  However, whilst their general automotive division may produce OEM parts, their Racing division has no such OEM ties (with any of the mainstream car manufacturers, like Ford, GM, VAG etc).

Brembo are a completey separate, privately owned Italian brake specialist (who also own Marchesini wheels - muts nuts motorcycle rims!), and have strong OEM ties.  Indeed, Brembo stuff is standard on all Audi RS models, Lamborghini, Porsche and Ferrari.

If I had to pin my flag to the mast, and state who makes the absolute best brakes, it would have to be Brembo - even though it pains me to think an Italian company is better than an English company!  Oh, Brembo products are also German TuV approved too.

The particular disc (part of a Big Brake kit put together specifically for the Mk5 GTI - hence my involvement) is well tested. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to say that TT is totally wrong about grooved discs.

I'm not saying grooved discs are bad.  It is simply that they have no design function, which will either increase, or maintains brake efficiency.

The discs are generally grooved for one simple purpose - STYLE, and nothing else.

If you believe the tosh that gets drivelled out in the mags like Max Power, they claim that the grooves clear the gasses generated in the pad at the moment of brake fade.  This is pure nonsence, and has no engineering proof!  The centrifugal effect of the rotation of the disc, coupled with the airflow over the general brake area due to forward motion is what cools discs and pads.  Under very extreme conditions, when brake fade does occur, the only proven method which helps dissipate the gasses is cross drilling.  This allows the gasses to "bleed" into the central vents of the disc, whereby the centrifugal effects will help "pull" the gasses more quickly away from the pad surface.

What AP Racing have done with their "grooving" (just like Brembo, too), is to simply address the "style" or desireabilty, in the same manner in which they paint their calipers bright colours, such as red or yellow.  In terms of painting, the only colours proven to help dissipate heat quicker are darker colours, such as black or dark grey.  It is for that reason why Audi, with their big, heavy RS cars (and also the R8) have black calipers, or anthracite calipers on the ceramic brake options.





The painting of calipers on Porsches, either the "big reds" on the iron discs, or "yellows" for their ceramics, are possible because Porsches are generally much lighter than the "uber" saloons and Avants from Audi.  Porsche brakes tend to be much more "over-engineered" when compared to Audis, too - which explains why Audi need the darker colour paints, whereas Porsche can get away with more "style over function".

to be continued . . .
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #47 on: 26 August 2007, 16:21 »
continued . . .

The other important factor is to match a brake pad as being appropriate to the disc material - It isn't just a matter of changing pads to something with a good reputation, it should be known to be suitable for your car's disc.

Hmmm - that is less critical than you would think.  Afterall, all "metalic" car brake discs are made from cast iron.  OK, some may have varying content of carbon (Tarox black diamond come to mind), but they are all basically iron.  Discs on motorcycles are quite different, many being made of steel, rather than iron - hence the need for appropriate pad material.

Regarding car pads, it is not uncommon to find different pad manufacturers approching performance pads from different perspectives.  Some rely on kevlar, some rely on copper powder, some use copper strands, other metalic substances, and even ceramic materials too.  Regarding "makes", well, Pagid, Bendix, EBC, Mintex and Ferodo - all produce performance pads, and what may work for one person, another person may not like.

Also type of brake fluid is a contributing factor to good brakes.

Another myth.  Any decent DOT4 fluid is satisfactory - just change it at least every 2years!  If you track your car, then an annual brake fluid change with a quality DOT4 will suffice.

Do NOT, under any circumstances, use the silicone based DOT5 on any road car!  It is horrendous stuff, and should only be used in propper race cars or bikes, who have their brake systems completely stripped and rebuilt after every race meeting.

If you really are desparate for a better brake fluid with a higher boiling point, then only use a glycol based DOT5.1.  However, if you were at the stage where you were regularly boiling fresh DOT4, I would personally consider improved air ducting, to improve wheel area cooling!  :nerd:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline RedRobin

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #48 on: 26 August 2007, 17:55 »
TT - I'm afraid that some of what you have posted is directly contradictory to what I have understood from a Senior Engineer at AP.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Why Don't You Mod?....
« Reply #49 on: 29 August 2007, 18:02 »
TT - I'm afraid that some of what you have posted is directly contradictory to what I have understood from a Senior Engineer at AP.

What, in particular, don't you agree with?  :smiley:

Oh, and BTW, unlike the engineer at AP, I am not trying to sell you anything!  :wink:  :smiley:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo