I have decided on DSG for my next - and probably all future - Golf and then as an afterthought wondered, hang on what about the 'performance lightweight beast' (TM)
that I want to turn my Edition 30 into after 3 doors - all with reversible mods of course. So I searched around and found this post on Tyresmoke:
DSG is no good if your after more Power / 'Torque' as the box can't take so i hear Manual all the way...as i like to be in control
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arg123
journeyman
Reged: 21/07/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Germany & UK Re: Manual or DSG? [Re: Helfinger]
#513020 - 16/08/05 09:05 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
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DSG is no good if your after more Power / 'Torque' as the box can't take so i hear Manual all the way...as i like to be in control
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Hi Helfinger,
This point was discussed in-depth by Tonymac in a previous post:
Hi Arg,
Good luck with your test drive, I'm sure you will love it.
A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.
The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.
Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.
HGP also produce a Single-Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.
Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydralic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
loads and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.
The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.
I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque.
Tony Mac
So thats put paid to the myth for me.
