Author Topic: Santa Pod Sunday 25th,  (Read 11870 times)

Offline antgti

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #20 on: 23 January 2004, 00:32 »
the only thing i will say is i am a realpetrol head, i have had all manor of ford XR, Gt Turbo Punto, Punto HGT and i loved them.  Petrol has had 30 years of development and i mean serious performance development.  Diesel performance has only had 10 yrs of real development. So give it another 5 yrs and the diesels will be something special.  Give a new diesel ago for a couple of weeks and you will change your mind.. My mate has got a VR6 Corrado and even he admits that there isnot much in it between his and my 130 diesel. Once i have got it chipped then i may have the edge.
Me old diesel was quick/........

16.004 sec Qtr mile @ 85mph 23/5/04 Santa Pod



Now running around in soon to be REVO'd Seat ibiza 1.8T 20v FR and missing the fuel economy..............

Offline S11EPS

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #21 on: 23 January 2004, 08:33 »
The problem with diesel is its never gonna produce the bhp a petrol can produce, unless you crank up the turbo till it melts the pistons.

Why is that a problem??!!

When you put your foot down at 80 miles an hour in 6th (or 5th if you have a 5 speeder) it isn't bhp that moves you along, its torque, of which the diesel engines have an abundance.

Its worth bearing in mind that the figure 'bhp' is simply a by-product of torque and gearing.

The reason these diesel engines 'only' produce 150 bhp is because of the limits of the engine speed. Were a diesel engine to rev much higher (and providing the torque curve remains flat) the bhp figure would go through the roof.

Bhp is a much talked about figure because people perceive it as a tangible thing. The fact is, its simply a by product of two other measureables; in fact, there is a problem directly measuring horsepower of modern day internal combustion engines because they produce rotary motion not linear motion, and unless the engine is geared down, the speed at which they do work (time and distance or RPM) is too great for practical direct measurement of horsepower. So all those dyno curves we see are actually a measurement of torque with the correct formula applied to calculate horsepower

To put it into real terms, if we were both travelling along a motorway side by side at 80 miles an hour, I was doing 2200 rpm and you were doing 3500, your bhp figure will be higher than mine. This is simply because you are carrying a higher engine speed, yet it has nothing to do with your engine's ability to accelerate - that is defined by the torque your engine is producing at that given engine speed. The fact that mine produces more torque would mean that I would accelerate harder than you, regardless of what bhp figures were.

The greatest leveller of them all - the Carousel

Offline D Owen

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #22 on: 23 January 2004, 09:02 »
I concur  ;)

Offline Mk2Gti8v

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #23 on: 23 January 2004, 09:23 »
I'll going to santa pod on sunday, i will be good to see a few dubs blast down the strip

Offline frosticles

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #24 on: 23 January 2004, 09:26 »
Ah the good old bhp debate.......misguided fools!!!! The real power is measured in torque (ie accelleration through the gears) The more torque, the better the accelleration. Guess Mr VR6 has never been in a good PD?
  Anyway, as AndiGTi says, By the time any problems do occur then I will have moved on to maybe a MK5 so it won't be my problem any more. If you check out the UK-MK4 forum there are plenty of chipped diesels running very good bhp with no reports of engine failures. Turbo's, clutches and boxes are a diferrent story though.

1978 Ford Escort MK2 RS Mexico, GTiTDiPD150. RS2's,Cruise,Metallic Black, Upsolute re-map. Goes and smells like stink.

Offline frosticles

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #25 on: 23 January 2004, 09:32 »
Sorry, Forgot to reat what S11 EPS said above, Very well said, That should put an end to this BHP subject. Now.........where's Santa Pod again? he he

1978 Ford Escort MK2 RS Mexico, GTiTDiPD150. RS2's,Cruise,Metallic Black, Upsolute re-map. Goes and smells like stink.

golfvr6

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #26 on: 23 January 2004, 13:38 »
Sorry lads but that is BOLLOX.
Torque is almost useless without BHP, torque is only useful once you have built up some road speed. The engine will rev much quicker with more BHP.
Imagine it like this-
You can have a very long bar to undo a tight nut, this bar will give you lots of torque, but if the person that is using the bar is a little weakling then it will still be hard to undo the bolt. That is the difference between BHP and torque, you can have torque but you still need power. So an engine with lots of torque will accelerate very slowly 0-60 if it does not have a very high power output.
Diesel engines have torque because they need a long stroke for the compression cycle, this is simply because diesel is not as easy to ignite compared to petrol, hence why petrol engines will always produce more power. Diesel engines are also very slow without a turbo, i think that says it all.
This is why a diesel engine will be good 30-70 but not as good 0-60.
I think some of you chaps are getting a bit carried away with the torque thing, i'm not knocking the diesel, its definately a very nippy motor, but i can't see them overtaking the petrol engine for performance.

Offline jdro1978

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #27 on: 23 January 2004, 14:10 »
The figure that most performance parts manufacturers quote is brake horsepower (BHP) increase. This is probably the most widely used term for describing how well (or not) that an engine is performing. While the BHP figure is a good basis to determine how well an engine is performing, it is not the best to indicate how strong the engine is. BHP indicates the rate at which an engine will produce power, i.e. the more BHP the quicker you can move through the rev range while on the road. The other (and ultimately more important) figure to know is the torque output. Torque is a measure of energy transmitted at an angle perpendicular to a point of origin, or turning force generated at the crank.

          So, what is the difference? Well, the more torquey an engine, the easier it will be to tow heavy loads, overtake at motorway speeds and drive uphill, etc.. The more BHP, the quicker you will be able to accelerate or change speed. One of the lesser know facts amongst the automotive world is the difference between petrol and diesel engine cars. What you will normally find with petrol cars is that the power (BHP) and torque (lb/ft) figures follow each other quite closely. For example, an Mk2 GTI 8V Golf has a stock power output of 112BHP and torque of about 120lb/ft. Diesel engines however, follow a different trend. The process of burning diesel produces more energy than petrol, but has been deemed somewhat less desireable because of higher emission levels (until recently) and higher noise levels. Diesel cars can usually produce torque figures that are around double their power figures. For example, the new Passat 2.0 TDI produces 130BHP and over 200lb/ft torque. What you tend to find is that a petrol engine will have more power than a diesel engine of similar displacement and aspiration, but the torque delivery is totally the other way round. This is why the Mk4 TDI kit car caused so much of a stir in the WRC, where its 300lb/ft engine was a cause for concern amongst its predominantly petrol based competition. Uphill, there was no stopping it.

Diesel technology has progressed over the last couple of years, meaning emissions are now at an all time low and in some cases lower than some petrol engines. But they are still quite noisy. Manufacturers seem to be stuffing their diesel cars full of sound proofing, which only reduces the power to weight ratio of their cars. Modern cars are getting heavier, not lighter, but a lot of this is due to ever changing laws meaning more and more safety features. Safety is a big seller of cars. Fortunately, car manufacturers are making their engines more powerful to cope with the extra loads, and this seems to be an even bigger seller!

So, when the time comes for you to buy a new car (you won?t be selling the GTI though, right?) would you consider a diesel? Just think of the bags of torque at your disposal. Improved fuel economy. ARE YOU MAD? IT?S A DIESEL! Get back in your GTI and go for a long drive.


kniterider

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #28 on: 23 January 2004, 14:27 »
not getting involved in this dispute im afraid, i know the diesels are bloody quick!!!, im a low power petrol model so i cant say nowt!!! lol (till i get a boost of power from some where ............) ;D

golfvr6

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Re:Santa Pod Sunday 25th,
« Reply #29 on: 23 January 2004, 15:25 »
I do agree with jdrowen.
However the reason the new diesel engines are so good is obviously the torque they produce but also the high brake horsepower.
BHP is linked to the size of the bang in the combustion chamber, torque is linked to the stroke of the engine(or leverage it produces). Lots of leverage is pointless without any power to push it.
Diesels will always be limited by engine speed because of the very high compression pressures.