Thoughts on the GTI

[kalimon]

The GTI has become the niche car because leasegate initially made the R very accessible, the better car became the cheap option.

With access to cheap leases gone and the GTI getting a £1250 deposit contribution that no other performance Golf got, the gap was big enough to make the GTI cheap enough to justify the HP difference and no Haldex.

Then VW has recently closed that gap again by making previous options a compulsory purchase and upping the RRP to close the gap between the GTI and the R, and then making the £1250 deposit contribution available to it.

I'm not criticising the GTI as a car, i'm criticising the cost of it vs the R. The RRP price gap/3 year ownership cost gap is so low between them that most would pick the R over the GTI. When you can get an extra 36% HP and 4WD to put it all down, for 8% more monthly cost, it doesn't add up to most people.

All the above is VW's fault. Extra equipment for nothing is welcome, but when they cause a hike in the RRP on what is an already expensive car (relative to its peers), I think they've shot themselves in the foot if they want the GTI to remain "the" VW hot hatch. That Haldex is worth £1500 (around what it costs to option Quattro on certain A3s), and the drivetrain differences add up too.

If I had decided that 220ps was fine for me, i'd expect the GTI to be a solid £4k cheaper and £100pm cheaper if PCPing.

You can get standard GTI PP performance and GTD mpg by adding a DTUK box or remap to a GTD and making sure you don't have BS on the front wheels, and not have any real reliability anxieties. You can do the same to your GTI to get it up to R output, but it won't have 4WD and i'd be a bit worried about my clutch and turbo.

Next to the R, the GTI looks too expensive and the mpg savings against the R are piffling next to a boxed/mapped GTD.

There's no snobbery here on my part, I bought the R because I was sick of frequent tramping on my GTD, and the GTI wouldn't have cured that. I was quite happy with the output of my DTUK'd GTD and the mpg. As luck would have it, due to the collapse in the price of oil, my fuelling pence per mile costs are the same in the R that it was in the GTD when diesel was at the lofty heights of £1.38/L.

When you buy it as opposed to leasing it, it is £4000 cheaper for the same spec.
It's ok saying that the added GTI spec is pointless but it's there all the same. The R is under speced if anything.
I set myself a £25000 budget for a new car and the GTI just about scrapes into said budget.
Most people who own an R and post on here appear to have spent  quite a bit specing the car up, satnav, keyless etc

[p3asa]

Matt with all due respect, you are very much a numbers person and like to go down the route based on facts and figures.
Just because you can "get an extra 36% HP and 4WD to put it all down, for 8% more monthly cost" that means nothing to most. I'm quite sure you could make those figures appealing for any car. For instance get a Daihatsu, yeah the R will have 55% more power but you will be saving 75%

I'm in the process of getting my Mrs a new car. She was pretty basic in her requirements. Sat nav, heated seats & keyless.
Now given she isn't into cars I could easily have got her a Kia or something similar as long as it had those requirements. She would just have been as pleased with it. She knows I'm keen on the R so i put it to her in a round about way what she thought of one for herself, but she felt compared to the GTI/D it just looks like a normal Golf with no extras!!
The GTI just ticked so many boxes for her and with the financial deals on at present, I would have been crazy to go elsewhere.

So what I'm trying to say is, its not all about what's a better car on paper. Its about what car suits you as an individual.

I get the feeling sometimes on here folk buy cars and then feel they have to justify the reason why they got it and belittle everything else.

[kodkod.84]

TBH I was smitten with the company 1.6TDI SE I has on loan for 6 weeks, so I don't know why you are all whinging about whether the GTD/GTI/R is better 

[Exonian]

I'd not normally add my thoughts to a thread like this as a) they're irrelevant to anyone but me and b) pretty much the same as option a.

I'm pretty much a GTI purist but I own an R so it kind of muddies the water somewhat.
My first car was a GTI nearly 30 years ago and I've owned probably more than a dozen since alongside many other cars of a similar ilk.
The R was never a planned purchase, I'd hoped to get a Clubsport but unfortunately I can't stand the mutton chops bumper on it and I also think the rear spoiler looks a bit silly. From the front it just looks a dogs dinner.

Anyway, to the case in point - to my eyes the GTI should be the perfect blend of biggish engine (check), nimble handling (check), reasonable running costs (check), good power to weight ratio within smallish body proportions (check), subtle but sporty styling with unique features (check), classier than the mainstream opposition hot hatches (check).
All of these things are why it's such a big seller in the UK with our crowded roads and hills and bends and general lack of space.

The mk7 GTI epitomises that perfectly, it's actually better on fuel than an R than the figures suggest, especially when running it on 95RON making it significantly cheaper to run. It doesn't feel 30 odd percent down on power to an R due to the high torque and very broad power and torque bands. I'd have put money on mine having significantly more power than 230PS and I'd put money on my R struggling to make 300PS. I've owned a lot of modified GTI's and so I have a good feel for these things.
I don't care what anyone says - the GTI and to a lesser extent the GTD looks really 'pretty' in a sporting sort of way; with Santiagos added (a poor value option but adds infinitely to the car's looks) the GTI is a really sharp and up to the minute looking car.
The R has a certain menace about it looks wise but... well let's just say it lacks the R32's and mk6 R's presence.

The mk7 GTI kind of reminds me of the mk2 8v GTI in that it performs massively well in its own right, and looks pretty darn good too, but lives in the shadow of another. The main difference being (aside from the mk2's better build quality and the mk7's impressive standard kit) the mk2 was in a bit of a heyday with a massive proportion of Golf sales being 8v GTI's similar to the GTD of today where as the mk7 GTI is a little too buried in the range now. This is the age of the hyper hatch with the owners of big engined big cars downsizing to the likes of the R, the A45 AMG, M135i and others who bring their own bit of snobbery with them.
The mk7 GTI over performs for its spec but underperforms in the sales charts, especially considering the cachet those initials have, lease gate has amplified that as everyone (and I mean those who don't inhabit this forum, rather the wider petrol head world) now thinks of the R as a cheapish option and expects the residuals to be low thanks to the twenty billion base spec lease cars that will all hit the market at once (which is the perception on quite a few forums) which sort of kills any image of aspiration or class.

So, my thoughts on the mk7 GTI (having owned one for around 20 months)?
I'm far from the typical buyer and even further from the typical R buyer, if you added all our household incomes together we'd probably still not make one higher rate tax income out of it. I'm not a career high flyer as I have a fairly low paid and low stress job that I actually enjoy so therefore passed on chances of moving on for years so much so that my ship has long since sailed. I did things a bit of a different way to the current general way of living in that I worked hard young and paid my mortgage off, kept my smallish house and spent my money on half (quarter?) decent cars and holidays. I don't even have a credit card.
I then stuck my savings into a bigger house rather than buying an R8 to park outside of a terraced house! Unfortunately I could only have one or the other I think as I live in an expensive area with something like 40% of jobs below the living wage but house prices at home counties levels.
So there's definitely no R snobbery attached to me, no feelings of trying to climb the social echelons and certainly no trying to keep up the the Joneses as they'll always go one better.

No, the GTI in mk7 form is something I'd not even have dared dream about back in the day when my hair wasn't more silver than anything else. It's an amazing car. I loved mine but...


... but the R does so many things a little bit better!

The main killer for me was the lack of stage 1 tuning options for the GTI and for those that did tune theirs, a few of them blew their drivetrains up!
The tuning box was an answer to tuning problems but not THE answer as far as I was concerned (yes I spent a fair bit of time trying one then not using one, then trying it again) so in the end I decided the answer laid elsewhere.
I bought an R and couldn't give a rats arse about tuning it as it's plenty quick enough and has a much sharper throttle response (once past that ridiculous dead travel spot that makes a pedal box essential in my eyes).

If it was as easy to do what I wanted to do with a mk7 GTI as it was in previous generation cars (that didn't suffer TD1 issues or lighter but weaker suspension components) then I'd still be very happily running mine...

... well probably anyway.

[Watts]

TBH I was smitten with the company 1.6TDI SE I has on loan for 6 weeks, so I don't know why you are all whinging about whether the GTD/GTI/R is better 

Excellent post!

I bought my GTI because of the red tartan and the red led door lights. That and my OH let me

[Sootchucker]

Bloody hell, reading this I'd dare not start a "Thoughts on the GTD", I'd be laughed off 

[kalimon]

If I did 8000 miles a year or more I'd have bought a GTD without hesitation.
It's plenty quick enough for me and looks great.
It makes no sense when I do 3000 miles or less a year so a GTI it had to be.

[AndyG]

I blame Rebecca for starting all this with her thread. 
I wonder which Gti is best,normal or Performance Pack?

[monkeyhanger]

For me, buying a VW in recent years rather than something else comes down to a few things now VW reliability is unremarkable and average at best:-

1. Decent level of standard spec - no need to spend a fortune on the options that are hideously bad value.

2. Refinement and ride comfort (relative to other hot hatches with firm/low suspension and big wheels) is up there with the best of them.

3. Access to good tech and a willingness to employ it (sometimes to the detriment of reliability - twin charge 1.4TSI anyone?).

4. Looks - I like the Golf's evolution , with the exception on the MK3 and MK6.

5. Great residuals and access to decent discounts if you twist the salesman's arm (they won't offer it on a plate) - for me this is the way VW justify their RRP. The best part of £30k for a Golf GTI/GTD and a smidge over for an R is insane, the only reason this is palatable is that the residuals usually keep the overall cost of ownership down. About £300 a month depreciation on a car is as much as i'm willing to stomach right now i'm in a position to buy outright and not suffer the PCP interest.

The GTD and the R have done so well because when placed next to the nearest equivalent, they're very little extra on a monthly basis. I doubt half as many people would have bought an R over a GTI if it were £100pm extra via the PCP route. In the same vein, i'm sure many people in a GTD would've had a GT 150TDI if they didn't end up costing pretty much the same on PCP monthlies.

VW's RRPs started going crazy at the introduction of the MK6, when the MK6 GTI/GTD came in at 20% more than the outgoing model. They got stung by it, MK6 sales were massively underwhelming for VW, I see around 3x more MK5s on the road than MK6s.

Seems now that  VW are at it again, the GTI and GTD have only been out 2 years in a time of virtually zero inflation and yet they're 10% dearer. If my R is worth pennies when I get shot of it, it may be the last new VW I buy. VW are charging Audi money now and BMWs are starting to look cheap in comparison. If they belted out a good looking 1 series i'd be seriously considering one with the kind of discount you can get on a hot BMW.

Most people will judge a hot hatch on performance and cost, and the R looks to be serving up a lot more for an additional £30 a month. The public buying these cars are proving that by placing more orders for Rs than GTIs, and residuals are what they are based on perceived demand in the used market. If the GTI was perceived to be as desirable on the used market as the R then it would hold more of it's RRP and the monthly price difference between the 2 wouldn't be eroded by better residuals on the R (not half as good as they were once thought to be).

There's definitely no offense intended, as they're all good cars, but when the quicker car costs pennies more on a monthly basis it seems rude not to get the R unless a standard GTI is at the top of your budget. If Audi were knocking out RS3s for almost the same monthlies as S3s or Porsche were doing Cayman GTS for almost the same at the GT, who wouldn't go the next one up?

[Exonian]

Bloody hell, reading this I'd dare not start a "Thoughts on the GTD", I'd be laughed off 

Go on, do it!

it'll probably just get booted into the TDI section out of spite!!